Anarchist Book Fair Porn

From Counterpunch

Radicals and the sexual exploitation industry become more and more intertwined by the day. I wish I was surprised when I learned just today that the 2013 Bay Area Anarchist Bookfair is being held in a venue owned by the torture porn website, Kink.com.

Kink.com is infamous for its images of women “stretched out on racks, hogtied, urine squirting in their mouths, and suspended from the ceiling while attached to electrodes, including ones inserted into their vaginas,” explains feminist activist Gail Dines, who argues that the pornography website is in stark violation of the United Nations Convention Against Torture.

If you don’t want to listen to some feminist, I’ll let Kink.com speak for itself. On the website, we learn that the project began when the founder decided to “devote his life to subjecting beautiful, willing women to strict bondage.”

Of course feminists sounded the alarm right away and demanded answers and changes from the Bookfair’s organizers. Of course they were only ignored or attacked.

To be fair, a statement addressing concerns about the venue choice was almost immediately posted on the Bookfair website. Not surprisingly, it attempted to justify the decision, with the bulk of the text being about the tight budget they were working with. With the handful of lines the statement devoted to feminist concerns, they deflected responsibility by claiming that “there is a valid political criticism of every venue that is potentially available,” because “we live in a capitalist society, and until we have created an explicitly anarchist infrastructure that can support this type of event, such contradictions and compromises are inevitable.”

It would seem that the organizers of the 2013 Bay Area Anarchist Bookfair have little or no ties with Kink.com or their venue, and are indeed making somewhat of a comprise in hosting their event there, because there’s just nowhere else to go. But, yet, their statement goes on to show how aware of the issues they really are. They write: “We acknowledge that pornography and sex work have been divisive issues in the anarchist community. The choice of the Armory Community Center is not a political statement, and the Book Fair Committee is taking no political position on pornography. We accept that members of the community (and even members of this committee) have differing opinions on this issue. We will be organizing a discussion on anarchist perspectives on pornography during the book fair, and if this topic interests you, we hope that you will attend.”

This situation—a big political event hosted at a controversial location leading to public outcry—is familiar. It’s not unlike another incident of just last month, when a bunch of House Republicans booked their annual winter conference at a former slave plantation in Williamsburg (where, to add insult to injury, they planned to discuss “successful communication with minorities and women”).

But here’s the difference between the two events: When the Republicans announced the site of their gathering the Left was out in force to decry them as racist and insensitive to the historical reality of slavery. When the anarchists announced the site of their gathering the Left was out in force to decry feminist objectors as puritanical, moralist, and anti-sex.

Imagine if the House Republicans had put out a statement similar to that of the organizers of the 2013 Bay Area Anarchist Bookfair. They might write: “We acknowledge that white supremacy and slavery have been divisive issues in the Republican community. The choice of the former slave plantation is not a political statement, and the House Committee is taking no political position on white supremacy. We accept that members of the community (and even members of this committee) have differing opinions on this issue. We will be organizing a discussion on Republican perspectives on white supremacy during the conference, and if this topic interests you, we hope that you will attend.” That should be sufficient to ease the worries of the Left, no?

I beg the organizers of the Bookfair, and anarchists in general, to answer me this one question: is pain different when felt by a woman?

Ben Barker can be reached at kidcutbank@riseup.net.

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Comments

It's one of those little ironies of the Left that AK Press under Ramsey (one of the PM troika running the bookfair) was so cozy with Counterpunch under Alexander Cockburn as to co-publish a bunch of really not anarchist titles... How things change. I hope I'm not the only one to wonder if this objection from the Leftists at Counterpunch would have been tolerated if the old not-so-crypto-Stalinist Cockburn were still alive.

And as another poster commented on a different thread, why is it that the only objection the PM troika will acknowledge is the venue rather than the fact that this year the event is transparently the PM Press fair? You got to give them credit for behaving like the best PR-savvy politicians: acknowledge that there's scandal, but only acknowledge the part that will allow them to stay in power.

BUt but but... why not just fucking smashing the organization meetings of those ABF Leftists? How fucking long we'll let a handful of filthy socialist rats wave the flag of anarchy while fucking up our milieus?

Did you ever dream of seeing what it's like a hipster being kicked in the ass?
They're easy to beat up anyways. They probably won't even defend themselves... at best they'll squeal as they run away, shocked and confused. lol

YES BECAUSE SLAVERY IS JUST LIKE PORNOGRAPHY AND SEX WORK YOU DUMB FUCK.

You know what isn't divisive in the anarchist community? How fucking stupid DGR is so while you are mad about porn why don't you consider how mad about 95% of the population will be when they are dead because we now have to fuck fish to survive with Derrick Jensen in the woods.

DUDE, I hear Kink.com is launching a new site called SALMONFUCKERS. The two regular doms are Derrick Jensen and Ben Barker who capture poor salmon with their bare hands and then gang rape them. Double penetration, watersports, electric play, they do all sorts of sick shit to those little slutty salmon. I hear they even have a scene where Ramsey Kanaan and Jen Angel and Lierre Keith all join in on fucking the nasty little salmon in all their nasty little fish orifices. In one really depraved scene, Jen Angel actually straps a salmon to her crotch like a strap-on and then fucks Ben Barker in the ass with it. Everyone needs to boycott this bookfair to show PM press, DGR and Kink.com that it is NOT okay to fuck Salmon and then sell it for money.

NAMSL representative here. I will sue your ass for defamation, asshole!

*NAMSLA

I'm so bad at jokes

DGR Wisconsin Leader Ben Barker

This second wave feminist activist has been anti-anarchist for some time now.

Ok I have to know something. What is it about Derrick Jensen that people don't like, did I miss something? I've only read Endgame 1 and 2, and don't know anything about DGR, so I have no idea and all of my comrades have given me vague answers. Can someone please explain? It is driving me crazy.

Thanks.

-Bay Area rebel.

he literally sticks his dick in fish search youtube videos

I was absolutely not expecting that. I couldn't find any videos, though, and am not sure what to think.

I get off on watching porn videos of Derrick Jensen fucking salmon.

just sayin...

Best a-news comment of all time.

Yes you missed something. You missed any of the critiques that have been leveled against DGR for the past two years..

It's been explained a hundred times already. Do some searching.

First and foremost this: http://vancouver.mediacoop.ca/audio/deep-green-resistance-death-threats-...

Second of all, he props himself up as a cult figure and charges vast sums of money to speak his armchair gospel to their (they hope) future selfless missionaries.

Their proposal for DGR as some kind of environmental IRA is completely absurd, and militaristic, and is only gonna put a bunch of guilty white kids in jail, while Jensen continues to live off the wealth of being a paid mouthpiece.

Also another similar attack on anrachism made by these cultish fucks: http://kidcutbank.blogspot.ca/2012/07/masculinity-is-not-revolutionary.html

Well fuck that. Thanks, though! I finally had that cleared up.

"I beg the organizers of the Bookfair, and anarchists in general, to answer me this one question: is pain different when felt by a woman?"

I am an anarchist in general. And of course we have to consider things very interestingly because pain can be abstracted or looked at postively...you gotta think positive right!!!hahahahahahahaha

In any case, pain is what, some electrodes firing, some neural thingers and maybe some affect or feeling on the subjective side. I was wondering the other day what it'd be like to be a behaviorist's slave, like, ouch that hurts but I'm still doing it!!! Or, conversely, this is fucked up but it's sooooooooogoooooooood

Depends on which way you look at it. Work work work. All work in all of society must be reduced to the turning of a crank for x hours a day. Everything else will be automated.

Also, don't listen to british people.

but they do riot better that the u.s

things like orwell offend me. not because they're necessarily untrue, but because they're so cynical about it. i see a lot of british culture in a similar light, but mostly exposed through the tv.

Thank you

no they don't thats bullshit

the last time they had a good riot was like the 80s

Did you sleep through summer 2011?

THe other commenter said a "good riot".

What happened in summer 2011 was a 2 days MISGUIDED riot that ended up being immediately recycled by the most fascist elements of society and the gov't as a justification for MORE totalitarianism. DId the corporate oligarchs felt threatened in any way during these riots? No. Did they do a lot of profit out of a new level of dictatorial policing and prison society? Hell yeah.

Did you sleep during the moment of self-criticism?

Any riot in London that doesn't target places like Buckingham Palace, Oxford, Eton or the City are brainless and misguided, no matter who does it, no matter the motivations behind.

Those damn MISGUIDED rioters had a "bad riot"

IGTT 1/10

"Any riot in London that doesn't target places like Buckingham Palace, Oxford, Eton or the City are brainless and misguided, no matter who does it, no matter the motivations behind."

thanks god

There is some scientific research into the way pain tolerance and pleasure sensitivity goes... I saw it on mythbusters. Apparently there isn't a big difference, although I think once I read that there is something about arousal which includes a heightened skin sensitivity. Who would have suspected THAT!

I hate the police. To me, mythbusters are like the police for myths. There are better things to do than bust myths, or at least better ways to do it. Reality is what we all make it be. In the future, we will vote to decide if things should exist or not.

This is the point where I stop reading the comments...

Mythbusters are a bunch of pro-State, fascist tools. Who would have suspected THAT!

No one would argue that women (or men) who are featured on kink.com are "feeling pain" - the question is whether they are choosing to feel pain.

Anarchists aren't "against pain" but against oppression. The participants in BDSM videos are - presumably - voluntary. They are paid actors. They are paid to be in a documentary to receive real or simulated pain and then act in a real or simulated way.

Much like pornography that doesn't portray pain but portrays pleasure: they are possibly enjoying it or, more likely, they are pretending to.

So the question is one of acting and volition. Are they allowed to do what they seem to be choosing to do? Are anarchists against the right of sadomasochists to engage in sadomasochism - on video or otherwise? And are they against people acting like they are in pain or are enjoying pain?

Much as the courts have found some people - like Max Hardcore - to be guilty of "portraying sex with a minor" when a 30 year old woman says "I'm 12 years old daddy fuck me" in his videos, if a woman says "oh spank me, that hurts so much" are anarchists against this portrayal?

Last time I checked anarchists were for "freedom"- apparently political correctness trumps freedom. Freedom means the ability to offensive. Porn is offensive.

The united nations really needs to step in and occupy this issue right away.

I'm pretty sure they're already recruiting among those trendy, sexy people at The Armory.

Fyi people, DERRICK JENSEN AND LIERRE KEITH (The author Ben Barker' s holy leaders), are both published by the anarcho capitalist enterprise, PM Press who are the organizers of the Bay Area Anarchist Porn Book fair.

What a Fucking idiot. They are literally going to be peddling LIERRE's vegetarian myth and some of DERRICK' s stupid repetitive books inside of this porn warehouse, lol... Many anarchists are already ridiculing this book fair and the book fair organizers but I guess we are somehow still responsible for what these "anarchist" publishers do......

Fucking ridiculous

it's funny because dgr is apparently anti porn

no its manipulative. first a debate. second, make the debate a this or that situation. third, make sure your people represented the this and the that. pick porn pick anti-porn either way you pick dgr.

even if you pick anti-dgr you still pick dgr. its dgr allways and 4ever.

It is manipulative. But it would might be unfair to someone suffering emotional trauma.

the world is full of people like that. are we going to continue to accommodate rapists and abusers because traumatized people act erratically. and then we can all blame the traumatized for being so short fused and three cheers for rapists and abusers who keep the peace and order? no.

"I beg the organizers of the Bookfair, and anarchists in general, to answer me this one question: is pain different when felt by a woman?"

Does Ben Barker know what "willing" and "consent" mean? Does he even know what "kink" means? What a fucktard.

the word "fucktard" has few redeeming qualities.

Fucktard's most redeeming quality is being the name of this band:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J70dvK16AeE

I really don't consider myself an Anarchist anymore, although I don't believe in government. I did attend the Anarchist Book Fair one year, and it was cool. I suppose that I'm too square to be in your culture. But, this actually kinda surprises me. I'm kinda glad that I'm not around for this.

Yeah dude, I attended a protest once too. It was pretty cool.

I wanted to add, that if I was a feminist and an anarchist, that I would be hopping mad about this. As my thinking goes now, this sounds like more drama than that pie in the face thing with the pepper in it that happened a few years ago.

What gets me is how this debases the anarchist movement. At the very least it reduces anarchism to a nudie batman comic, because if you can't take the violent porn seriously, then why should you take the anarchism seriously? And why would I be willing to set anarchism next to violent porn unless I was not taking the violent porn seriously? Why should I take anarchism seriously? Doesn't this reduce anarchism to the level of violent porn? Maybe anarchism is violent porn, and it is just another form of entertainment, more circuses to go along with your system provided microwave tv dinners?

I could start to draw out an elaborate analysis of the parallels between BSDM and the punk rock and anarchist cultures from an artistic and cultural perspective, but hell, I'm not an anarchist anymore anyway so I don't give a fuck.

On the one hand, I got told by women and feminists from your culture that 'all men are rapists' or that 'all men are capable of rape' On the other hand I get the impression that violent porn and anarchism can be put together in the same cultural bag from this choice of venues for your exhibition.

Did you just reply to yourself 4 times? And you managed to get weirder and less logical every time. Good work Leviathan!

No, wait a minute, I found another connection. Homeless kids and anarchists. Homeless kids and sexually exploited kids. Homeless running away from home away from sexual abuse. Homeless kids running into anarchy. Homeless kids running into sexual exploitation.

Logical? Sometimes is left brain thinking, sometimes is right brain doing the thinking, doing the linking, smelling the stinking, doing the finking, taking a tinkling, making the blinking.

You want us to care what the Roach Motel and Gail Fucking Dines think?

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH WORKER!

"If you wanna know what the sex industry is like, never ask a woman in the sex industry"-Gail Dines.

Really, watch her videos, she's a complete fucking moron.

She may be a moron, but unlike you she isn't a sick fuck who jerks off when other people are being tortured!!!

i dont jerk off at all, i has no penis

you don't need a penis to jerk off

I jerk off with your penis while torturing innocent salmon.

Let's see, they're in the building of the capitalist / patriachalist pigs. They obviously have a key. They have long periods of time with potential access to places to secure areas like the generators, the electrical system and maybe the internet network.

Can I please ask: What kind of fucking anarchists are you?

They are the type who jerk off while other people are being tortured. Probably in much the same way that the Christian Right jerks off when people are being tortured in CIA black sites.

Some people are into pain and there's nothing wrong with that.

Yes! Just look at the LAPD!

People will have to decide for themselves what to do about the venue. I assume there are NO anarchist bookstores large enough to host this event-and none with yards or gardens that could host it outdoors.

Having checked out some of the other links involved, yes, the TYPE of porn kink.com specializes is not at all to my taste, but it's still acting, just like the torture in a Hollywood movie. It differs in one way from using the Hollywood zero-dark-thirty movie set: the BDSM films are meant for participants in BDSM sessions that are also staged and consensual, while the SEAL movie glorifies actual torture of captured prisoners who could not say the magic word NO except by snitching. Of course, any evidence of people being forced by violence, threats, or use of authority/relationships to participate in making kink.com's movies would be quite another matter, demanding quite a different response.

As for other venues, any place involving hiring cops should be all the way out of the question. A few years back, the National Conference on Organzed Resistance died a quick death when it was moved to Spring Break and campus pigs were able to focus their fire on it. I had to grapple and fight two campus pigs at NCOR's last iteration when they didn't like being photographed. Won the fight, but it wasn't fun and unlike the folks in BDSM not consensual at all.

A venue with cops who do NOT ask before putting people in cuffs is a terrible alternative to a venue owned by a BDSM porn company, so if the porn warehouse is out, the options boil down to outdoors or cancel. Being around cops is a trigger for people who've been in jail just as being on a BDSM set is a trigger for someone who just terminated an abusive relationship.

ANY commerical venue means patronizing a capitalist. An empty clothing warehouse would mean giving money to the asshole that closed it down to ship jobs overseas to the worst kind of sweatshops. A stadium was probably built with eminent domain and money stolen from the taxpayers, the way the DC baseball stadium that bulldozed our SE Gay Enclave was.

Since the actual BDSM scene(what participants do, not what movies edit out), at least so far as the Gay portion of it is concerned, is reputed to be consensual, I personally would not boycott the warehouse, only the films. Still, if the site reminds participants of actual (not BDSM) torture they way the 0 dark 30 movie set might, that alone might be a reason to have the event outdoors under tents.

What a load of bullshit!

The porn you have on Kink.com is some of the most disgusting misogynistic, fascist crap you can find on the net, including the stuff you find on the chans.

So Bay anarchists are people who get high on torture, gang bangs and desecration of women in public? Wow.

BUt okay... it was all done with the "consent" of the women involved, so that's all ok!

Fuck you.

I'll go all the way across the US to smash that pile of shit at the Book Fair. The "kinky" jocks and cunts won't like that kind of desecration and pain I'll inflict upon them.

your retarded andrea dworkin

Yeah yeah... when you see me, you'll love Andrea Dworkin as you'd love your mother.

I'll slowly and painfully remove your teeth, and then make carvings on your face with my dirty old Opinel that'S gonna reads: "rapist".

Die, scumbag.

Dworkin isn't in my bloodline. Nor do I have any love for Munchaussen syndrome (which is a great metaphor for "mothers" like Dworkin.)

Bloodline...

So you do have an addiction at hiding in closets, you fascist white cheese.

THink you're tuff? Then show your colors! Then I can cut you up.

Listen, you tiny bonless blob of sado-victim sea monkey shrimp - you're really out of your depth here. To my have my womanhood challenged by people as sexually confused and physically repellent as you is truly a larf for the ages.

"fascist white cheese"!!!!

Hahhhaahaahhah! Comment of the week!

Not my porn, kink.com's porn. Never watched theirs, nor appeared in it, so no firsthand experience with their stuff.

I can only vouch for the Gay male sex industry as that is the only part of the sex industry I've ever worked in. I WILL say that I was part of the defense that deterred a planned FBI/ATF/Vice squad sweep of DC Gay clubs in 1984. I was also part of the crew that responded to an early 1992 raid on our SE DC clubs with a furious string of marches on the cops and disruptions of the City Council, That story ended with Sharon Pratt Kelly out of the Mayor's office, finishing last in a 3-way primary as the incumbent. No arrested defendants cooperated, all charges had to be dropped. Finally, it cost Wilhemeina Rolark her council seat, clearing the way for repeat of DC's sodomy law a decade before the Supreme Court voided them all.

THAT's the history I am speaking from!

Some people like pain; it goes both ways. Are you against dominatrix porn?

"it was all done with the "consent" of the women involved, so that's all ok!"

Why are you scare quoting consent? Do you have reason to think Kink.com is dishonest or exploitative? All this reveals is that it's not ok with you, so here you are as the maternal/paternal imperialist saying "this must not be ok for you either!" Fuck off.

You're violent and mentally stable. THC helps this, usually.

unstable***** obviously.

This article is incredibly dishonest and opportunistic. The author of this piece is essentially taking this controversy about the bookfair venue and attempting to use it to paint all anarchists as misogynists. That's just dishonest and illogical. The most ridiculous thing about this article is that its author, Ben Barker, is a member of Deep Green Resistance an organization which is constantly railing against "consumer politics". A critique of consumerist "vote with your dollar" mentality is an issue Derrick Jensen has written about pretty extensively. In fact I've heard D.J. attack anarchists for promoting what he perceives as "moral purity" when it comes to consumer choices. So it seems incredibly disingenuous for someone from that group to then attack the anarchist bookfair organizers for their consumer choices (ie. renting a space from a company involved in the porn industry). This article has nothing to do with addressing rape culture or challenging misogyny within radical circles—it's about attacking anarchism.

Exactly. Fuck this snake. I'm critical of porn, but the author acts as if the people in the porn are being subjected to these acts against their will. I mean I'm not down with promoting rape fantasy shit, but they're not actually being raped...

That's an important distinction that the author purposefully doesn't acknowledge in order to smear anarchists as supporting the torture of women?

She makes the argument that a: the women in the films are participating against their will and don't have the agency to make that choice, b: holding the event here is an implicit endorsement of this contrived version of what actually happens in that space, by the organizers, and c: the organizers represent all anarchists.

I guess the true answer is that: a salmon fucker will always fuck salmon...

"but they're not actually being raped..." HOW THE FUCK WOULD YOU KNOW?

Your attitude is IDENTICAL to the State's attitude towards homeless people "They like being homeless, that's why they're homeless." Or racists' attitude towards blacks and latinos "They want to be separate from whites that's why the live in ghettos."

FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK ALL YOU APOLOGISTS FOR RAPE.

Indeed, this person makes an interesting point, albeit a little bit over-emotive. The issue with the consent is the variety of contexts and conditions in which consenting to particular things actually occurs in. At the unit of analysis of the individual, all consent is valid because in denying that you deny the agency of the individual and thus you dehumanize them. But there are also ways of slicing up the totality of experience into specific situations or binary yes no conditions. These variables could then be combined in different ways to express different aspects of society empirically. When you look at sex work, a lot of these variables or combined in a certain way create conditions where it is very easy and sometimes the most logical consequence of the context one is in. And this is a very abstract conception of the coercive system.

And when you look at one of the prime movers for these conditions, it is obviously money. Hi.

Sure, we often hear stories of the rich girl gone bad and crazy stuff like that, but those people are a minority. Sex work generally could not exist in a classless society because the grand majority of sex workers do not come from the very top of society.

One should ask themselves, quite humbly, what mother would have sex for money out of her own volition, assuming of course she loved her child? I don't think many but how many actually do because they have few really viable options? Many. They may hold illusions concerning their own mistakes, but to their children, I feel likely most women would see things clearly.

Civilization has made every domain the domain of advertising, thought control and manipulation as consumer. Different anarchists have made different moves on this terrain of Spectacle. But where I'm getting to here is that out of all the chatter and ambiguity, a value structure emerges that is very destructive for everybody and it must be challenged.

Yes, and OBVIOUSLY so: when people have no money, they are FORCED to do extreme things, like work in coal mines, work as garbage collectors, work amidst toxic chemicals and get tortured on camera (gang raped, choked, beaten, electrocuted, hanged, ad nauseum). No one wants to do these things; they only "consent" to them because they need money desperately and feel they have no other way of doing it.

They only difference between coal miners, garbage collectors, workers at toxic sites and porn stars is that EXCEPT FOR THE PORN STARS there aren't a bunch of sick fucks jerking off when they are at work. But the absolute worst of those sick masturbating fucks are those that pretend to believe (or actually believe? EVEN WORSE) that women get brutalized on camera because they have fully "consented" to do so, they "like" it, they "get off" on it, they are "liberated," ad nauseum. People like that -- a number of these sick fucks post comments to this site -- are NO BETTER THAN CHILD MOLESTORS, who say the exact sick things: "I'm not doing anything wrong, see? she's smiling! She actually likes it. You're the one with the problem, not me."

And YES I'm being "over-emotive": I'm a victim of sick fucks like that and I want to KILL THEM ALL.

Right, because beautiful hot white women from middle class homes can't possibly find any other kind of work than the porn. They are literally "forced" to move to the San Bernadino valley to suck men's cocks on camera and get paid $1000. while the mope gets $200. All those female porn director's are "forced" into directing porn because capitalism "forces" them to.

You remind me of those anti-porn evangelist ministers who hang around porn studios trying to save the "lost souls" of porn actors.

nice apology for rape culture, bro.
tell you girlfriend that this is what you think and she will leave you immediately.
that is, if a sexist piece of shit like even has a girlfriend!

my good troll, I think you've got them!

heterosupremacist feminists go die now

Would that make your tiny dick hard, you sick fuck?

Nice apology for political correctness gone haywire, bro. I'm an anarchist, so obviously I don't have a girlfriend...LOL. Besides, who needs a girlfriend when there are so many salmon around? I'm also a furry.

First of all I 'm not a bro you patriarchal asshole, I'm a woman. Second do let us know when "political correctness" as you call it goes as far "haywire" as women get gang raped with no condoms on any of the men, women get hanged bytheir necks, women getting beaten black and blue, etc etc. THAT WILL BE THE DAY. (No surprise you don't have a girlfriend, it's not being you are an anarchist but because you are an apologist for rape culture.)

^the best troll

Except what you are describing isn't Kink.com nor anything related to the mainstream porn industry. So your hysterical unfounded accusations and guilt by association tactics are exactly that: political correctness gone haywire. Now go peddle your puritannical fundamentalist nonsense somewhere else.

Good example of the ideology of rape culture: I must be a "puritan." The other side of the coin is always that women are "dirty whores." You patriarchal idiots just can't get it through your heads that neither extreme is valid and that women (real women, not the kind you fantasize about) always fall somewhere in the middle. Asshole.

" women (real women, not the kind you fantasize about) always fall somewhere in the middle"

i'm sure glad you not only KNOW exactly what every woman thinks/wants/does, but actually SPEAK FOR all of us.

take your bullshit detector and shove it up your cunt, since neither one obviously works, you know-it-all moralistic douche bag.

- a woman that likes sex MY way

Those anti porn evangelists actually are the only "anti porn" activists there are. Does voyerism bother me? No. Do I know feminists who engage in bdsm? Yup. Does Kink have a good reputation? By porn standards from what I'm reading. But the other site its being compared to, something called Throat Gaggers( I couldn't make this shit up) has 8 accusations of rape against it and is essentially watching broke women allow their boundaries to literally be slit on to make rent.

Its not that its kink, its that its capitalism. This article blows by the way. But I wouldn't feel very comfortable in a porn lab. But 'slavery?'. Get bent.

"essentially watching broke women allow their boundaries to literally be slit on to make rent." (No doubt the poster meant to say "shit on" but his unconscious allowed his true feelings "women are nothing but slits" to creep out.)

WHAT ABOUT THIS DON'T YOU SEXIST PIECES OF SHIT UNDERSTAND?

So everyone who does porn only does it cuz they have no money and are forced into it. Ay ai ai.

Get a grip on reality.

nice apology for rape culture, bro.

im not a bro.

HEY YALL... WOMEN EXIST ON THE INTERNET TOO

You are a liar: you are male, just like the majority of the people who post here. Asshole.

k d00d

wait, silly me... why do i feed the trolls?

There may be multiple women auditioning and competing for these roles.

The sex industry isn't going away. Better that nice people be in charge of it. Bet most of them are anarchists anyway.

The thing is that you speak as if the guys jerking off was incidental when it's precisely those guys that makes what the pornstar is doing work and not just sex. And so it becomes really difficult to admonish those pathetic individuals when the actual act is generally being done by others, either publicly or privately. The issue that I have with Dines and the whole anti-porn crusade is their insistence of occluding the reality of culture and approaching the topic as if culture was somehow the root of the problem. A society without porn (or where porn is illegal) can still be very patriarchal, see for example the islamist states or any strict christian group. However, a classless society makes porn and sex work practically an impossibility.

hey bro, aren't you in love with that troll or something?

stereotype much?

yes, of course, only poor people do porn, no one could ever enjoy having sex on camera, or doing some kinky shit that they might even be in to. fuck your bullshit, get off how you want and don't tell me how im supposed to.

i dont mean to seem unsympathetic but your experience, no matter how harsh, is no reason for blanket ideologies and pigeon holding.

OK cool, you and all the porno people and all the sex worker's rights anarchists and Fun Feminists can go right ahead thinking that you "like" the demeaning shit your fucked up trauma experience made you think you like! Real geniuses!!
NO ONE ENJOYS BEING DEGRADED AND EXPLOITED. They can act like they do, or even think they do for a while, and that's quite profitable to SOME PEOPLE - but eventually they realize they've been BRAINWASHED. When you defend this shit you have no idea what you're dealing with. Women who do this idiotic shit ARE ALL COERCED INTO IT. Maybe not directly! Sure, maybe they go down and sign up, for the money, or even for some counter-productive idea of therapy! - but IN THE PAST they were likely abused, raped, told they're worthless, made to suffer low self esteem by advertising, and made to hate their bodies. Then they decided it might make them feel better. PATHETIC. and even more pathetic are the "men" that watch, film, and ruin their humanity and sexuality alongside them. Real Fun! Real enjoyable! Real liberating!
- a man, not a rapist

You might not be a rapist (maybe) but to dismember the experience of every "woman" doing porn, bdsm or otherwise, and boil it down into one viscously hideous degradation, to snatch away any power in the process because it exists within capitalism (ur coop job does too asshole), is presumptuous at best and incidiously phallic otherwise.

I too am suspicious of the trajectory that the milieu is on, romanticizing any type of work as possibly subversive, and hope it doesn't continue without more nuanced and intelligent critique. Your analysis, however, is precisely the type of bloated bullshit that makes this topic completely useless to discuss.

-sometimes sex worker critical of everything

PRISONER
every "person" cooperating in the commodification of their sexuality is destroying themselves for other people's profit.
NO PHONY PRETENSE TO A TASTE OF POWER THROUGH HUMILIATING SUBMISSION
"power" is not "snatched away" from porn actors or prostitutes so much by the fact that they exist within capitalism - as by the fact that they exist within patriarchy and authoritarianism, and the invasion of the body by the commodity.
DON'T LET THE RAPISTS WIN
Call me phallic, call me presumptuous, but I think the degradation and humiliation and misery of your little corny "power" games are pathetic and childish. Turning around later in life and playing their game, letting patriarchy/hierarchical power force you into its mold of submission and domination, and define you, means letting the rapists win.
THIS DEGRADES THE WHOLE HUMAN SPECIES.
If you find the whole topic completely useless to discuss, you aren't "critical of everything" enough. I think you're afraid to face up to yourself and what you've become. you're a human being with individuality, uniqueness, feelings, emotions, dreams - not a symbolic degradation object / "sex worker"
STOP FEMALE COLLUSION IN PATRIARCHAL OPPRESSION.
pornography, corny "kink"/bdsm and prostitution exists only as a foil to maintain the veneer of phony monogamy. It's not edgy and hip - it's pathetic and sad, and will only reinforce your trauma.
BOYCOTT THIS BOOK-FAIR.

Right on!!!

you realize these arguments can and have all been applied to gay sex

A lot of people get off on being degraded and exploited. Some people routinely pay hundreds of dollars an hour to be ordered around and abused. Is this really news?

No, it's not news: its called capitalism. And we are against it, not for it. Remember? Duh.

all activity that all people do is called capitalism. how can you say that getting off to being beaten and told what to do is more inherently capitalist than 'vanilla' (or whatever) sex?

side note: im not defending the bookfair, it sounds stupid for a multitude of reasons, this kink.com thing being the newest one. also, this article is stupid too.

The folks that pick up our garbage have an important job, as do coal miners and the rest of the working class that you so easily dismiss. BSD clearly comes from a privileged background and has a deep seated resentment against the working class. Maybe it's time to to stop sucking off your parents tits and earn an honest living or maybe you simply believe you are to good to get an honest job and support a family.

"Sex work generally could not exist in a classless society because the grand majority of sex workers do not come from the very top of society. "

Well, yeh. But when you're poor, sex work is a helluva great option, considering all the other shit you could be busting yer ass doing.

I come from the bottom rungs of society, but hell if i wanna work at a shitty retail job for 40 hrs a week. I have other creative projects i wanna do, i wanna travel, i wanna have lotsa free time to enjoy life and spend time with family and friends. Sex work sucks, but it helps me do those things (i dont work in porn btw, i work in another area of the sex industry). I sit around and complain to my other anarcho friends about how much my job sucks. But i guess we all do, no?

Statistically, like most poor people, ill prolly always be poor. When you grow up like that, you sorta accept it. I'll prolly go back to working at a pizza joint one day, or starbucks, but for now imma enjoy getting my teeth fixed and being able to afford organic food, and I guess other anarchists can envision me and my co-workers as pathetic victims w/ no agency if they want.

Most of these criticisms aren't coming from anarchists from what I've seen.

you yourself are basically stating that you dont like your job but do it anyway because its the best economic option. so it isnt that you entirely lack agency, its that your agency is constrained by capitalist class structure. it is not automatically dehumanizing to point out that agency is sometimes limited by social circumstances. the broadening of work choice is one of the ways that class privilege operates

im really confused by what youre saying here. Can you re-state it? Im not tryin to be snarky i just dont get the points youre tryin to make

wait, you're saying im class-privileged? Cuz that'd be kinda funny...

Or you're saying that sex workers do (or don't?) entirely lack agency?

it really was less of a specific response to you and more of a wider comment about many of the comments in this thread

many people in this thread have made statements like "but youre denying agency to sex workers by saying they are economically exploited, which dehumanizes them," etc. others are saying "but people go into sex work for many other reasons besides being poor, maybe they like it," etc. what i am saying is that it does not necessarily take away the agency of sex workers to say that they are partially forced into sex work because of poverty.

you say: "I come from the bottom rungs of society, but hell if i wanna work at a shitty retail job for 40 hrs a week. I have other creative projects i wanna do, i wanna travel, i wanna have lotsa free time to enjoy life and spend time with family and friends. Sex work sucks, but it helps me do those things." so you think it sucks, but it pays well, so you do it.

similar to your situation, sex workers dont entirely lack agency, but many do not enjoy full agency with regard to employment. being able to pick any job that you want is a function of class privilege. a rich student doesnt have to strip to pay for school, while a poor student might find exotic dancing economically desirable even if they dont actually like doing it. a rich person does whatever they want, or doesnt do anything, while a poor person's choices are more limited.

therefore, like most things, the answer is nuanced and lies in a grey area. both the "sex workers choose it for themselves because they wanted to" and the "sex workers are totally exploited, who would ever want to be do sex work" camps are wrong.

" 'but they're not actually being raped...' HOW THE FUCK WOULD YOU KNOW?

Try talking to some of the workers there. The ones I've talked to who've worked w/ Kink.com either love working there, are neutral about it, or at least find it tolerable as far as sex work goes (no less annoying, intolerable, or at worst, shitty, that anyplace else).

Im not sayin Kink.com is some wonderful thing that I want to exist in my ideal post-capitalist world (same as any sex work, or, you know, work) but maybe if you care so much about women (and men and trans folk) who work there you should take their actual opinions and experiences into consideration and not try to paint their experiences as "rape" in order to validate your own biases.

Putting rape in quotation marks?! What are you, a Christian Republican in addition to being a sexist piece of shit? Even worse, because you think you're different from the other pieces of shit, when you're not.

I put "rape" in quotation marks both because 1) I'm quoting someone else, and 2) the workers at Kink.com as far as I know are not actually being raped, therefore the person im responding to is intentionally misconstruing the situation.

You're making yourself look really, really dumb and illogical here (which i guess doesn't matter in the end cuz we're all anon anyway, whatevz...)

"as far as I know are not actually being raped," THIS IS WHAT SCUMBAG POLITICIANS AND LAWYERS SAY: "as far as I know." But there's a whole out there that you know NOTHING about, and that world includes rape on the sets of porn shoots. Asshole.

I know that rape occurs within the sex industry. Stop deflecting, brah.

You know that? Really? Then why hasn't your voice joined the chorus of the people protesting the holding of the bookfair at a place owned by rapists. And you would think I'm a "brah," not A WOMAN, you patriarchal piece of shit!!!!

you called me a bro here, and said i was a liar when i told you i wasnt a guy- http://anarchistnews.org/comment/6783#comment-6783

WHEEE MISGENDERING ANONYMOUS PPL IS FUN!!1

Anyway, I didn't say people were being raped specifically at Kink.com, I said that rape happens in the sex industry. It happens everywhere, it's that whole patriarchal rape culture thing, you know? In our homes, at our parties and shows, at big public social events in broad daylight, on buses. You have to be a moron and very intellectually dishonest to think that no rape has ever happened to a sex worker, but you know what doesn't help challenge rape culture or keep sex workers safe? Further stigmatizing and alienating sex workers like some folks (or folk?) in this thread are doing, calling them "slaves"/"deluded"/"giving in"/"self-degrading"/etc. The owners of Kink.com are indeed capitalist business owners, as they make profit off of people having sex, but calling them "rapists" actually really trivializes the word and renders it sort of meaningless.

The opposite of this isn't pretending that sex work is all hunkey-dorey (sp?) and unproblematic, but having some nuanced understanding of the pre-existing class-realities of many sex workers, as well as acknowledging that human sexuality is exceptionally complex and just because you cant understand why someone would be ok with bein spanked for $ (and take it from me- spankings generally SOUND a lot more dramatic than they actually feel) doesn't mean that other people also can't, or that those who ARE ok with engaging in that type of sexualized contact are delusional, damaged, crazy, stupid, or bad people.

And one more point, i think its interesting that cops & prison guards & soldiers kill and massively oppress people, and most colleges offer criminal justice degrees & ROTC programs ...but anarchists still hold events at colleges. And you know damn well no one would be starting MULTIPLE shitstorms on @news if this bookfair were held at a college that trains the armed wing of the State. Just one of our lil anarcho contradictions i guess..

Thank you for this. Most venues are highly compromised in terms of an anarchist's 1st order concerns, so I guess anarchists should not go most places, let's see how that works.

Rape also occurs within the Anarchist community. Stop.deflecting brah

yeh i know, that's sorta my point.

That's my point, too. And it is obvious from the rape-apologists posting here why rape happens in the anarchist community. Overlap between the community and the mainstream: way too many sexually frustrated white males who believe they are superior to everyone else when they are little boys with tiny little penises to match their ability to empathize with their sisters, mothers, and daughters.

So, you're saying they actually are being raped? How the fuck would YOU know?

because it has been my misfortune to be a sex worker, you sexist piece of shit!

interesting. Have you ever worked at Kink.com?

and therefore EVERY sex worker's experience MUST be exactly what yours was, including their reaction.

right?

FINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NEXT TIME I RAPE I WON'T APOLOGIZE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ha! Never thought I'd be posting this here.

Kink.com interviews a lot of the women in their films both before and after he scenes. Usually they ask why they are interested in their particular sene and also what heir limits are.

Of course I haven't seen all of them, and say what you will about me, but it's pretty clear that consent in at least most of the scenes I've watched is not an issue at all.

Cool, now back to my mild annoyance at the wingnuttiness and irrelevant divisiveness of he comment board.

"against their will." what is wage slavery? I'm tired of the liberal bullshit in the anarchist movement. I'm disappointed that this fair is being held there and that the anarchist justification is liberal bullshit: the "choice" of where to work in capitalism is freedom. There is no systemic analysis just individualist justification. No one mentions that the porn industry is misogynist and systemically generated by patriarchy so men can get off on depictions of degraded and tortured women.

And why would he be interested in attacking anarchism?

Because he sees anarchist opposition to hierarchy as an obstacle to creating a movement that requires discipline and obedience to our green saviors from DGR. And because anarchists reject the cult of personality that Jensen has created around himself.

Seconded. Fuck D. Jensen, and fuck opportunism, and fuck single-issue analysis like this.

Absolutely, I almost repeated your post. Jensen strikes me more an opportunist than the accusations of authoritarianism. Pure money politics leads only to the destruction of the movement. I wonder if Jensen is as smart as he thinks, what the end result would be then?

And is a little authority so bad. Not as in a military but maybe as a class of well behaved students? At the very least until the act of teaching becomes second nature and people can be relied upon for such things.

"Of course feminists sounded the alarm right away and demanded answers and changes from the Bookfair’s organizers. Of course they were only ignored or attacked."

What about those of us who identify as feminists, who aren't against the SanFran Bookfair bein held in that venue? Do we not count?

Only the DGR RadFem Caucus has a valid opinion, comrade.

jesus ... worst part about this is how easy it is to troll the shit out of it but for those of you who don't actually get the 2nd wave feminism thing, START READING.

Look up words like "essentialism", as in "essentialist argument" as in, saying stupid shit like "rape fantasies promote misogyny" makes you a stupid reactionary that simply fell asleep for the last 30 years of feminism so ... START READING.

PS: I thought my local bookfair was lame but now I feel much better about it.

RE: "lame" - you missed the last 30 years of disability activism. less ableist descriptive language please.

Except I'm a gimp actually so .. that's OUR word. Seriously, quit trolling this article loser.

yeah i bet...

shut the fuck up, you retarded pillow-biting nigger

you cant see me but im gay and black with a cognitive disability, so dont be offended

eat my shit you fucking troll
(ps I am actually a vertically challenged scat muncher so no offence)

This is great actually... A space that costs less and that second wave essentialist scum wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole? Sounds like a win-win...

^Best troll....ever.

One thing here that's a big fucking problem is that non anarchist liberal puritan fucks are hopping on this bandwagon to attack anarchism. We need to be steadfast and tell them to get the fuck out its our show.

Second, this topic for whatever reason......brings out some serious Loony tunes. I mean you have sex workers on every thread from the actual place in question telling people to settle down. Americans have some serious issues with sex and those issues manifest in insane people.

I commend the women taking their time to join this convo.

DGR has a lot of ex-anarchists who felt neglected because they were lazy, self-promoting, shit-for-brains, or some combination of those, and want to be part of an organization that tells them that they're right and they're doing a good job and pats them on the head, and tells them that whenever anything bad happens it's somebody else's fault.

"DGR has a lot of ex-anarchists" ?

All the DGR people I have met come from liberal/progressive/eco-feminist backgrounds.

there's someone who declared war on the LAPD and we have had TWO threads about the stupid fucking bookfair but no mention of him.

go fuck yourselves anarchists

yeah there's an irritating liberal who declared war on the bad-apple LAPD in a stated effort to redeem the police state as a whole. run forrest run, i guess.

yea you're right a stupid fucking bookfair and porno is way more relevant to the struggle against authority and the state than a former member of the military and police who has revealed insider information about the culture of police and declared war against them, and who has retained some public support despite killing civilians.

nothing to possibly be learned from discussing this guy, his tactics or the fallout from his actions. whereas another goddamn discussion about patriarchy and porno is sure to yield a revolution or insurrection any day now.

if the liberals are the ones declaring war on the police and the anarchists are the ones having self-perpetuating discussions about their FEEELINGS, then i'll be a fucking liberal.

gtfo

oof, can i assume the "lessons" you hope we're learning with that shitshow include how to retain public support while killing civilians?

btw in complaining about this you are also just discussing your FEELINGS

yes, you can. because the fact is killing bad ppl will mean killing their families.

discussion and expression are different things. one takes longer and leads nowhere.

I call him black rambo. is that racist?

Yes.

It's also a fact.

Unfortunately, the guy who declared war on the LA pigs did so by shooting family members of the guy that fired him from the LAPD, not by taking that guy out in person. This declaration of war took the form of a war crime, the sort of thing I would expect from the Shin Bet-or an LA cop.

There is only one good thing about that case: it will have to end with cops shooting cops, no matter who wins. That guy has some damned serious training, his final battle will surely be a bloodbath. Let's hope it takes place in a remote area with no non-cops in the line of fire.

I think from a feminist perspective, the act of a woman being subjected to brutal male dominance only further perpetuates patriarchy and the female/male power structure. It is not a bad idea to live everyday asking the question, what systems do I pose a threat to? By reading some of these ridiculous comments many of you "radicals" aren't challenging patriarchy or gender and sexual dynamics at all.

yea thinking it doesn't make it true. especially when some of the shit you think is just not accurate.

some people like being dominant or dominated sexually. it's not universal based on gender and there's never been any proof of it being the result of some trauma or patriarchy in general.

lots of animals have pain involved in their sex. crack open a book.

"lots of animals have pain involved in their sex." YOU WOULD KNOW, you piece of shit. Go tell your girlfriend (if you have one) that you think she "likes" pain and she'll kick you right in your tiny balls.

yea she's the one that turned me on to S&M you fucking sophomore gender studies major

Bullshit. She dumped you fast and hard as soon she found out what a sick fuck you are. Otherwise you'd still be abusing her to this day, you lying sack of shit.

wow you're a scumbag. you are confronted with facts that counter your idiotic theories and so you invent a history that fits your bullshit black-and-white worldview.

it's not abusing someone when they tell you what turns them on sexually and then you do it for them.

you're just a puritan posing as a feminist

You are being trolled by someone who probably agrees with you bro

no. I'd actually like to pay him $5.00 then kick him right in his sexist piece of shit balls and shoot video of it while it happened and then upload it to the internet.

Hey, you could prolly make a lotta money doin that on Kink.com! "Ballbusting" is a for-realsies fetish & dommes make like $500-900 a scene there

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cock_and_ball_torture

I don't want to make money, I want to pay that sick fuck $5.00, and I don't want to kick him in the balls in a way that he enjoys it, I want to hurt him so bad he never gets an erection again.

umad, bro?

while you were busy typing this nonsense me and my partner had awesome dirty sex with naughty words and acts.

Did you strangle her? Beat her until she bled? Electrocuted here? You wanted to, but you didn't. You know you're girlfriend would not only drop you but call the police on you. But that's what we're talking about, you dick: abuse, not sexual intercourse. Take your smug attitude and rape apologies and shove them up your ass.

There are lots of people who participate in the acts you descibe, and do it for no money.

lol umad. probably because of your vanilla, or complete lack of, sex

The above is a perfect example of the ideology of rape culture. Either women are over-sexed "whores" or they are under-sexed "puritans." You patriarchal rape apologists just can't get it into your thick heads that REALITY is in between these two extremes.

"it's not abusing someone when they tell you what turns them on sexually and then you do it for them."

yes, and the porn industry came about because so many actors were turned on by the thought of onscreen fucking, but had no venue. and then they were like "well let's have a worker collective and produce and sell videos to subsidize filming and distribution expenses" but then someone else was like "collectives are just self-managed capitalism anyway, i bet we can dupe some rich kids into doing the boring economic and administrative work for us" and then it worked really well because it turned out there was an untapped audience of viewers intrigued by the idea of what film would be like if the actors were using the medium to fulfill themselves sexually. and then they saved the community center!

BEST SUMMER EVER

Fuck that, sophomore gender studies majors are usually way up on queer theory and shit from my experience.

So you're saying that porn doesn't correspond with certain dynamics in American society? You think kink focuses on the cock an balls as much as the females? Do they cater to a male or female audience? Are the directors and the other powerful positions male or female? I am not challenging the act of sex, but the industry of porn. It has more commonalities with patriarchy than gender equality, so why even try to defend it? And yes thinking doesn't make it true, but your sexual experiences have nothing to do with a porn industry... And please be careful when comparing humans to animals... Doing so has justified a lot of racism....
Hey but for the sake of having a boring ass life, start shit and tell a person how it's wrong to defend equality... Because the overall real enemy you must attack is the one that says don't turn women into objects and spectacles so men can jerk off to them.... I may need to crack open a book or two about animal sex like you have... But a book will never help you understand how to address systematic issues that perpetuate oppression of peoples globally.

This is the only good argument against it so far: Are people watching it because they get off on watching someone get off on weird shit (which no one has a right to object to), or because they get off on watching women be raped and tortured because they hate women or something like that?

Also, this is the dumbest argument ever.

"they get off on watching women be raped and tortured because they hate women"

THIS IS EXACTLY MY POINT. And that hatred seems to be rife in the anarchist community or at least among many of the boys who are posting to this thread.

These abstractions are irritating. Do you feel comfortable with the venue? End of argument. No? I wouldn't either and I've engaged in sado masochistic fantasies. I wouldn't because its not fair to people who wouldn't feel comfortable. This article is such a piece of shit though. The U.N.? Blow me. But if a friend of mine boycotted this and could win an argument, Id stand with them. Not for this piece of shit article though. Disingenuous fear mongering to compare s&m to torture. Capitalist exploitation? The pornography industry in general? Yes. Sexual fantasies between consenting adults? Hell no.

this is one of the more reasonable anti-capitalist-but-not-slutshaming posts in this entire thread. Thank you.

i shoulda said *anti-capitalist-but-not-antisexworker-or-slutshaming

i practically copied this argument word for word and rode the wave for a few hours. it's down there somewhere.

dude, let's go to the anarchist book fair at the gang rape porn studio! fucking radical! we'll get some PBR and party after at delores park. hit me up on facebook and i'll text your iphone.

you fucking hipsters are not anarchists.

here, i fixed it:

dude, let's go to the anarchist book fair

you fucking hipsters are not anarchists.

what are you talking about, anarcho-hipsters represent the vanguard of anarchism!

When I worked in the sex industry, I asked a director once if I could yell out "make total destroy" during the money shot (guess which side?). Anyway, he said no. At least at kink I would be able to do that although I don't work in that industry anymore.

porn in Milwaukee ? at the CREAM city collective ?

har har

RIP

666

im sorry it was a bad joke. i didnt know there was a person in reference to that particularly ridiculous idea, and more, they seem to be dead. sorry, wasn't trying to be evil.

Yeah, this has a 'look at us aren't we so edgy!' hipster stink to it.

Not to mention gang rape porn is the most obvious symptom of late capitalist sickness. And that some of our friends have real trauma over sexual abuse and rape and may not feel this is cool.

But if you have a problem with it you must be a liberal or a feminist or DGR supporter.

Disagree. I have been sexually abused and have no problem with this. Also, do fries go with that shake? These value meals are going up in price, brah - wink wink nudge mudge. What are we on Jack in the Crack right? How about just 5 99cent tacos?

"I have been sexually abused and have no problem with this." That's because they only form of sexual abuse you've experienced is that some girl wised up to the fact that you are a sick fuck and refused to give you a blowjob. Now be a good little boy and go jerk off to your pathetic power fantasies.

I concede the argument. You have bested me and I feel a deep sadness but also admiration for this might DGR power you represent, or not, I really can't keep up. You owe me a hamburger.

Porn, like prostitution, is a bourgeois vice. The so-called sex industry serves to cater to that vice. All jibber-jabber about how porn is sexually 'liberating' is bourgeois, and goes back to libertine bourgeois perverts, such as the Maquis de Sade, and Havelock Ellis (who used to get himself arrested, running around New York City in the early 1900s, for grabbing women's fannies). People like Ellis were, in fact, the principle reason Bill Heywood left the Wobblies. and began calling bourgeois wannabe anarchists "circus freaks".

fannies? you're so fucking PC you can't say butt?

fanny is british for pussy GOD READ A BOOK ALREADY

I don't see any need to use foul language. Only immature, loudmouth kids, as well as police informants-trying-to sound-macho use the foul lingo!

This is a super interesting argument because, as much as I get critiques of porn and hate the bourgeoisie, I don't connect the two. There are hella working class folks who watch lots of porn, and it's not like doing so grants them status or anything. To me, the linkage between porn and "bourgeois vice" just sounds like puritan bullshit that intends to set the reader against the bourgies because of some BS moral wrong, rather than any real structural argument.

Which is a shame, because arguments that tie gender and patriarchy into class relations are often really interesting and useful! Unfortunately, this wasn't that.

Also the term "circus freak" is hella ableist if you consider the history of circus sideshows as an exploitation of people with genetic conditions.

I doubt Bill Heywood, or anybody else in the early twentieth-century were too filled with late twentieth-century PC-ism. (Duhhhhhhhhh!!!).

IAWTC so hard.

how on earth is that an interesting critique

It's interesting because it's wrong. And because of why it's wrong.

Actually, Bill Haywood left the IWW because he left the country and he was notorious for visiting brothels.

Yes, the vices and perversions of the Rich tend to trickle down. But by and large, the sort of people who go downtown looking for hookers, or who patronize porn bookstores are the bourgeoisie, and the petit bourgeoisie. Blue collar Prols tend to llook in disgust on the perversions of the Rich. Also, we Prols have better things to spend our money on!

haha Blue collar Trols

HAHAHA!

Dude, we poor folks spend our money on the dumbest shit. You know it's true.

You're trolling, right? Anybody with some high-minded belief in the inherent moral superiority of the working masses is booj as SHIT.

We ARE morally, and mentally superior to you bourgeois inferiors! And you will shine our shoes, and kiss our asses one day! We will bury you!

I could argue pornography is predatory enough to compare it to slavery, but using the argument of capitalist exploitation, not sexual fetishes. That's insane. Just...insane.

My name is Derrick Jensen and I approve this message. Now pay me BIIIIITCHEEEEE$$$$$$$$!

I'M DANCIN! I'M DANCIN! I'M RICH! I'M RICH! MAKE IT RAIN! AWWWWW YEAH! BUY MY SALMON SOME PEARLS AND A DIAMOND RING! PUT THAT SALMON ON A CHEZ LOUNGE IN A COCKTAIL DRESS! WHO WANNA DIE FO ME!? WHO DAT GRUNT?! YOU! AND YOU! AW YEAH! AW YEAH!

-Derrick Jensen

When I die, bury me inside a booty club

When i die, bury me next to TWO FISHES

All i want for my birthday is a big anarcho

I am amused by how several arguments I've loked at about this focus on the UN Convention against torture, as if that ought to sway us as anarchists.

There are plenty of worthwhile reasons to object to the location of this year's book fair (and the location is only one of the many things to object to), trotting out international law as the first is not really doing a very good job. Try harder, mein comrades.

Yeah, I'm sure that the torture at kink.com is just like the torture one would experience at, say, a military prison in Syria. Man, it would be a hard choice between the two...

please, let me spare you the "torture" at Kink. I'll uh, totally take one for the team...

I mean, since you guys are basically running an ad for it, how funny is that?

They pay the young ladies in the hundreds and thousand of dollars, and this is nice:
_______________
Work Ethic
We will do all we can to make your modeling experience as enjoyable as possible. We want to find models who enjoy the activities our sites portray. You can expect us to be respectful and to work strictly within your limits. For any kind of bondage activity you will have a safeword. Word travels fast in the Internet age. If we were to abuse your trust in us, we would quickly find fresh models hard to find. Our producers are all asked to sign shooting rules which more fully describes our principles. In addition to a standard model release, models are asked to sign model rights.
_______________

THIS IS BULLSHIT HOW COULD WE HAVE THIS BOOK READING AT A PORN PLACE WHERE WOMEN WILL BE SCARED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOMEN NEVER WATCH PORN OR PARTICIPATE IN IT!!!!!!!!! WHY DONT WEHAVE IT AT THE MORMON TEMPLE INSTEAD IN THE SECRET ROOM!

you're bullshit. It's a book SALE. They're making MONEY. off anarchism. And they're doing it while giving money to SICK EXPLOITERS OF TRAUMATIZED WOMEN.

I BET YOU JUST FINISHED DOING YOUR TAXES

I AM GETTING A GREAT RETURN WITH TURBO TAX (c) WHO WILL BE TABLING AT THE BOOK FAIR!

at least the sex workers who do pay taxes get to write all their shit off as "business expenses". Boob jobs, makeup, outfits, hotel rooms, stage-fees. shoes, shampoo, camera/internet equipment, the whole shebangabang. Otherwise we get taxed out da ass.

Anarchists have hella rules.

Serious question: Am I the only one who feels like moving it to the place in question was not only a logistical/monetary good idea but also a move that makes this event even more relevant?

I'd never heard of it either, but now I kind of really want to go!

relevant to liberal hipsters slumming in the mission

this is pathetic. i really really hate you people. porn is horrifying, especially this kind of kink shit, and i'm a male.

cool story. Sorry you can't cope with like 75% of the human psyche. It's dark in there, sorry.

yeah sorry you can't cope with like 100% of porn being so hideously oppressive and dehumanizing and so you cover your eyes and pretend it's OK. it's kind of like smoking cigarettes isn't it - can't face the fact that you're suffocating yourself. can't face the reality of the consequences. makes you think you're pretty cool. claims to alleviate the problems it itself causes... yeah, cancer is pretty cool huh? traumatized ruined lives and ruined sexuality is pretty radical huh?
come on just think of all the STDs and rape in that dehumanizing polluting "industry," which just aggravates whatever trauma these "sex worker" people have suffered that made them think they liked this shit. 99% of the women that participate in this corny, miserable "porn" shit have been raped and now they're saying, "well, there's nothing i can do, i guess i'll just let the rapists win," and you "anarchists" with your capitalist book sales think that's all AOK and cool to participate in. sad dumb jerks.

Excellent thanks for the support, was beginning to think all the people on this site were rape apologists, if not worse, rapists themselves.

You're welcome i don't know why so few are are willing to wake up and smell the oppression.
But anyway most of the little anarcho-scenes are full of plenty unacknowledged condescension, patriarchy, and hypocrisy. They couldn't possibly take a look at themselves to see how authoritarian they themselves are of course - they're too busy with vain corny posturing and sleazy profiteering... as befits their choice of venue.
These people should be ashamed of themselves.

wake up and smell the oppression.

Haha this is great

yeah ... har har troll. You done backslapping yourself yet?

that was more of a knee-slap

also i mean c'mon, they try to insult people by calling em "corny" and then use the phrase "wake up and smell the oppression" which is prolly one of the corniest turns of phrase ive ever seen on this site

no you reprobate i called your VAIN POSTURING corny.

yeah, you call it "human" when they rip the shit out of the earth to mine their precious ores too? you call it the "human psyche" i call it the dehumanized psyche. and i call these people psychos that run the perverted corny porn world and think they're so edgy and cool - i also pity the anarchohipsters and "sex workers" who have all obviously been traumatized

morlistic pity, how anarchist of you. You should start a 501c3

why is "sex workers" in scare-quotes?

because GET A JOB

PULL YRSELF UP BY UR BOOTSTRAPS, YA BUM

DOWN WITH "SEX WORK." SEX-WORK IS A RIGHT!

I HAVE A DOG!

Get a job?

Get the fuck out of here!

because it's not "sex" and it's not "work." it's the hopeless desperate pointless squishing around in vaginas mouths and assholes of a destroyed humanity; the body destruction of slaves that let their oppressors win and even get off on their self-destruction, made by and for those who hate bodies and life. it's self-degradation and they're brainwashed.
anyway, in this society what they call both "sex" and "work" is slavery and bullshit.
"Fun Feminists" say women can "affirm themselves and get liberated" thru "sex work." they are full of shit! :)

"Fun Feminists" say women can "affirm themselves and get liberated" thru "sex work."

This is mostly a strawman. There might be some people who say this but most feminists and/or sex workers (regardless of their other stances with regards to sex work) acknowledge that sex work isn't fun or liberating. I've never worked with a stripper who was stoked on it, most feel neutral about it or are simply stoked on the $$ and the freedom it affords them to pursue other interests outside of the few shifts they have to work, all the traveling it lets them do, the fact that it helps them support their children while bein able to spend a lotta time with them, etc.

I recently told a friend who turns a trick occasionally, "I don't understand people who say they LIKE their jobs," to which my friend replied "oh, you mean liars?" But then we went on talking about how underpaid we feel at other jobs, that sex work is the way to go for a while because fuck working a goddam entire week for less than what I can make in a night.

Also, you do realize that the term "sex work" is mostly just a shorthand way of grouping many different facets of the sex industry together right? I guess I could say "prostitutes/strippers/camworkers/pornstars/PSO's/sensual masseuses/nude models" every time, but like, that's dumb.

I mean, I could understand you making the argument that grouping all these wildly divergent aspects of the sex trade together under the banner of "sex work" is problematic because it ignores the wide range of experiences, pay rates, working conditions, levels of physical-sexual contact, dangers, benefits, stigma, and positioning within global capitalism of all these different kinds of workers, but... I guess I shouldn't expect your analysis to be that deep or your knowledge of sex work to be particularly nuanced, since you seem to prefer speaking in detached rhetoric and buzzwords.

That whole bit about "slaves that let their oppressors win", that's really every one of us chumps who works to produce capital for our bosses, and goods/services that keep this toxic market system chugging along (which is by and large built on the backs of folks in the global south and causes massive environmental destruction). The walmart worker or burger-flipper at mcdonalds are just as bad as us, by that logic.

By the way, if we wanna talk about exploitation, why dont we talk about PEOPLE WHO WORK WITH KIDS?? Because I have a few friends who do, and they are MASSIVELY underpaid, overworked, taken advantage of because theyre supposed to do it "for the love of it." It's traditionally "pink-collar" employment, a "caring profession" that requires tons of emotional labor, thus is assumed to be a "natural fit" for women (and thus, devalued). (not saying there arent plenty of men who work these jobs, but they are still mostly, and traditionally, worked by women, and disproportionately women of color).

I'm so fucking sick of your shit. You're not human. And that's not a compliment.

sweet argument skillz

why don't you talk about things you know - like riding the mechanical bull at speed date night at Porkey's Pit Salloon?

Which kinda BBQ- Eastern NC, Western NC, South Carolina, Nashville, or Texas style?

Shove your moralistic bullshit up your ass.

It's as exploitative as any other sort of wage labor, plus if it isn't hierarchical, it's certainly "domination" - which are things anarchists are supposed to be against, right? It's a capitalist enterprise, it's an employer/employee situation, and having an anarchist bookfair in such a place is kind of a contradiction in terms...

On the other hand, the women who work in these places do make a lot of money - I knew a stripper/pole dancer who paid her way through a degree in engineering so that by the time she graduated, she had no college debt, a fully paid-for house, and $150,000 in the bank. She quit poledancing and got a job earning six figures per year doing engineering... so she came out quite well.

It's a capitalist enterprise, it's an employer/employee situation, and having an anarchist bookfair in such a place is kind of a contradiction in terms...

Almost any venue is gonna have employees that work there, whether they're visible or not during the bookfair. At least janitors who are paid to clean up the mess afterwards. Maybe even security on premises. Stores, universities, parks...

Yup, I'm astounded by how few commenters are grasping how every venue is compromised to some degree. There is no evil residue that sticks to you from going to these places, any more than there is when you visit a prison or college campus, or a recruiting center, or Manhattan...there are historical and ongoing atrocities everywhere. Fucking hell, if you walk on the sidewalk that could be pulverized gravel from an Olgala holy site. LETS ALL GO IN THE WOODS AND EAT GRUBS TIL WE DIE, CAUSE WE MIGHT BE "SUPPORTING" ATROCITIES. No wonder we are where we are.

I'd be against the venue if it had any relevance to my life outside of the internet. This is the correct decision for anyone socially conscious. Only a few people made the most important point i.e. some people will not feel comfortable at that venue. It was bound to happen and so irresponsible for the organizers. These debates lead down a sad road. We are being forced to choose between asexual violence or rape as a form of ideological social control. It strikes me as analogous to democrats and republicans, both choices obscene and morbid. There is no abstention however. Your vote is the decisions you make in your life. While you were daydreaming of a healthy sexuality the machine was set in motion and it is all but a foregone conclusion. So long as rapists exist we are all either rapists or victims. :(

from what i hear (having never been inside the Armory), it's not like there's gonna be folks walkin around in bondage gear and whips and chains and stained mattresses n shit everywhere. It's just a space where porny shit gets filmed sometimes, i imagine it will just be an empty room, FWIW.

That isn't really too relevant. It would only be relevant if it was not widely understood that the venue was a porn studio. That would require a high level of secrecy. The decision is obviously poor and in poor taste (says the chronic porn watching masturbator)

Yeah, with you on that. It's unfortunate that morons like Bullshit Detector and the DGR author have muddied the issue so much with laughably shitty psuedo-critiques, when the essential issue is just that, if you want people to go to your bookfair, it's better to hold it in a place that doesn't make people feel uncomfortable.

I have muddied the issue. I have shown the wider picture which is that the hatred of women and apologists for rape culture are rife in the anarchist community or at least among the jerk offs who have posted to this thread. Just moving that stupid bookfair to another location won't make these BIGGER problems go away!!!

Bullshit Detector

Do me a favor and find Andrea Dworkin's grave and put a phallic bullet through your head you 2nd wave leftist sack of shit.

In terms of the porn thing, anarchists in my book should never be against any kind of sexuality in principle(even the decadent varieties of which modernity is chalk full of). Like Terence Mckenna I think that sexuality is one of those founding psycho activated human sensations that makes us what we are, what ever form it takes the historical authentic anti-authoritarian needs to laissez-faire.

No more is this silly judeo-morality derived nonsense. We live in an exchange era(which is hopefully coming to an end) whatever is exchanged is no worse then anything else.

bitches all the same until you find a good business deal

i'm in the market for a racist fascist phoney alcoholic parasite with no human feelings....someday, right ?!!!

we live in an exchange era.

oh, I see.

"Authentic anti-authoritarian needs to laissez faire."

So then why so much resistance against the objections of sexually traumatized overly sensitive people? Why not let their resistance be (read guide) instead of plowing straight through for the big bang er bucks...

Because they are just as many that are not traumatized and not resisting to the point where in actual reality they do not even cancel each other out, we're talking about people that come from the Dworkin Dines line of thinking that is no where near any kind of anarchist orientation.

What I will say about the sex biz is that it can be one of the only forms of self-management that there is, I'm not a leftist so I don't view that as something to be valued, but looking at preferential forms of slavery I know what my pet peeves are and its not against something that historically has been flexible as far as labor goes as well as something that the bohemian type among others have been known to have some degree of fun doing.

Also a lot of these women and men I notice then to come from comfortable economic backgrounds anyway making their so-called plight just a little suspect. What we're dealing with is a bunch of spiritually inept malcontents, nowhere near the spiritual successors of Emma Goldman(who of course at one point did sell her body with no qualms)

you are practicing a form of exclusion though. you fail to acknowledge people's subjective feelings and trivialize their experiences because Emma Goldman sold her body. so if you don't live up to the Goldman rubric you are just a "spiritually inept malcontent." sounds like bullshit to me.

a lot of families in "comfortable economic backgrounds" are also abusive. the kids run away and their background suddenly becomes less relevant. you sound like a total insensitive malcontent yourself, actually.

Ha!

The 2nd wavers wrote the book on exclusion my dear, they are the ones that prefigured themselves in legalism and prohibition sex workers. The people and the contra-sex side of the game don't have much interesting experiences to trivialize anyway.

And Goldman is a standard that should be lived up to and continually inflated within any serious anarchist discourse, she's on the right side of history when it comes to human sexuality and there is no way that she translates the 2nd wave sewage in anyway whatsoever.

And as for these upper middle class twits and their ideas, it's not that I like to rag on where they came from, but one can't help but notice that many lumpen and lower class boys and girls don't have the same views on the jizz biz as these people do.

Its not porn as an abstraction most of us are against its the industry. The pornography business is disgusting. Many of the actresses who work for kink started out with company's like "Max Hardcore" and "Throat Gaggers.". Its not a moral sense of offense, its just fucking sickening. A dog would be perturbed watching this shit. I have no problems with bdsm or voyarism, group sex or even consensual non consensual fantasies, so long as people are emotionally and physically safe, but I'm not going to go to a bunch of fucking feminists who are looking to dismantle patriarchy and say "our moneys going to an institution that sells rape fantasies." Because I'm watching the videos, that's what they are. And if that gets you off so long as its not a pathology and you know the difference between a fantasy and reality, I don't care. But whoever thought this was a good idea is a fucking idiot. Seriously. If you've been sexually assaulted, you're not going to want to tie in your politics with this website. And fuck anyone for asking you to. Its ridiculous.

Exactly!!! The industry that produces porn (porn is an industrial product and like all industrial products it is completed tainted by capitalism) is totally sickening: mafia controlled, totally hierarchical, run almost exclusively by men, reinforces the worse stereotypes and prejudices of this sickening society (youth as raw material, age as discarded waste). The people who are willingly confusing porn/sexuality with sexual abuse are apologists for both rape culture and capitalism!!!

"The people who are willingly confusing porn/sexuality with sexual abuse are apologists for both rape culture and capitalism!!!"

This sentence is completely contradictory and nonsensical.

Also... Mafia controlled? What? Corporate-controlled, yes, but not Mafia. At least try to sound like youre at all knowledgeable about what yer talking about.

The mafia played a huge role in the porn industry. Wikkipedia bud. Wikkipedia.

the person posting above me implied that the porn industry is Mafia controlled currently. Not "played" a role in it in the past. If there's some evidence of the Mafia controlling the porn industry in the US i'd love to see it. As far as I know it's just very corporate-controlled, mostly based in CA, Vegas, & Miami. Which im obviously not saying is GOOD, I think it's just worthwhile to talk about things which are actual fact, or else it just makes one look as if theyre using outdated fear-mongering to reinforce their point. But yeh, if you have a Wikipedia link about this Im open-minded about this stuff.

YES, SO ANARCHISTS SHOULD AVOID INDUSTRIAL PRODUCTION AREAS CAUSE EWWW. KILLER STRATEGY

SOMEONE SHOULD HAVE TOLD THAT TO THE KRONSTADT KIDZ

Its that but in regards to this argument, its asking people who might have been victimized to confront a topic they might not want to just to buy some zines. I have no qualms with this website, its owned by a woman and touted as a gold standard of an abhorant business model, but I'm a dude and I've never been victimized sexually. I'm not going to make people confront their demons to buy some fucking books. Seriously, dumb move. You couldn't have set up some tents in the park?

Ok, but do you have to sound so boring when you make that argument. I think the culture tends to look at the reasonable response with suspicion and doubt. The sophisticated control mechanism of society are well hidden often behind a veil of rational dialogue. Logic is not a friend in the hands of oppressors!

The anarchist book industry is an industrial product! It is completely tainted by capitalism! Books being bought and sold for MONEY!! Can you beleive it? Evil..evil..evil...!

"you're not going to want to tie in your politics with this website"

I'm not sure what this means. What is "tying in your politics with this website"? You mean, having non-anarchists associate anarchism with Kink.com as a corporate entity?

Blanket statement. Some people are not going to want to have to confront the conceot of sexual violence and fantasy by buying books in a room where a woman was urinated on by five men the day before. Again, I have no problem with this but some people might. Honestly, some people probably should.

The point is that this should raise a conversation. About sexual fantasies if at the very least. Pornography....people.shouldn't be shamed into a) fear of having them and b) complacency over the pathologies that arise out of the negative b.s. that arises from having them.

it's easier to fantasize about an anonymous celebrities you will never meet than people you see everyday at rallies and events. particularly if you choose to write down your fantasies or express them creatively and not entirely orgasmically, bringing in people you know is rather awkward in our modern big brother era.

of course the radfems and people like that would rather further the guilt and is part of the domination mechanism like the neighbor upstairs and fake vegans. possibly others too.

Not here jack ass...

i don't know why you say that but the above poster has a point. it's like making guns illegal and really all that does is end up putting more people in jail and paying more and higher fines to the government. and it also adds to the hysteria. the hysteria feeds the violence and the violence the hysteria. if you feel comfortable in this system playing either role you are perpetuating its brutality. if you rise above like a champ you are the champ numero uno awesome the shit guy but then some stalinist dirtback stabs you in the back. i don't care for activism or politics anymore. i can change the world without these pathetic milieus. rather, they will soon be under my command.

Fine but why the exalted critique of this industry over the others, porn is heterogeneous in a lot of ways, you have extremities usual in the dirty corners of the internet and you have kink which usual has a good record when it comes to sex workers. Max Hardcore represents a particular extremity that is the sad outcome of number of things related to American Puritanical history.

In terms of Kink, Kink is more San Fransisco progressive sexuality when you look at how it presents itself as well as the fact that it shows up to a lot of GBLT influenced orgs and industries.
And of course you have 3rd wave type feminists who have little to no problem at all with this whole thing.

And lastly patriarchy is a descriptive phenomenon not a prescriptive, there is no general female disposition in regards to this descriptive, you have feminists who are up in arms over it, you have traditionalists women's leagues who like it, and you have MRA type females who have a different position altogether.

I myself don't care for the phenomenon and wished we came from a genus more like the bonobos, but there is no underlying male conscripting "Patriarchy"

http://rageagainstthemanchine.com/2012/03/15/porn-part-11-the-difference...

and again, fuck you, peel your shitty band patches off your crusty jacket and go cozy up to the local nazis.

Oh yeah. And to reiterate, there are feminists with sado-masochistic fantasies. Theres a difference between a fantasy and a pathology. I'm not going to force a dominating fantasy on my partner if she doesn't want it. And I only bring up the that gross shit because.....My point was only that when you have those extremes, Kink might not be so bad....sort of. My problem with this site isn't its content, at least not in the sense of it existing like some sort of vague apolitical abstraction. Well, at least not all of it. But even what I dont, yeah, there are heathy self respecting people with these fantasies, I think. I'm not going to defend the porn industry because I hope it fucking burns. But if I had a problem with the bookfair being held in this venue it would be a position I had to change even if a position I could easily change. I sincerely think its pretty insensitive and there should have been some sort of consensus taken. Because my apathy comes from a definite point of privelage, and also, I can somewhat relate to the makers of the content. But I'm really just fishing for a decent argument to convince me. Slow night.

do ME a favor and take a bath, peel the crust off your brain, take off the patches with the names of appallingly bad metal bands, and go join the local nazi party; you'll fit right in and you can complain about teh j00z and their oppressor morals all you want. we will fight you in the streets. GTFO PIG

Also, fuck you for saying whatever is exchanged is no worse than anything else that shows your total lack of ethics pathetic nihilist. you sound like you run a corporation and are justifying outsourcing the labor to china. .And fuck you for telling her to put a BULLET THROUGH HER HEAD??? the FUCK is wrong with you? It's UNBELIEVABLE how my fellow males talk about women and it makes me sick to my stomach. You should really be banned, fascist piece of shit, but of course we'd probably have to ban just about all you assholes wouldn't we, considering that YOU REALLY DON'T EVEN REALIZE HOW MUCH YOU TREAT WOMEN LIKE TOILET PAPER.
you're a bunch of fucking COPS.

also, people who participate in and make Porn are cops too.
They are the vicious, torturing, self-abasing police of sexuality, and should quit their jobs.

BOYCOTT THIS BOOKFAIR

Counter-judeo-moral inclinations is not the same as antisemitism idiot.

It's not that certain types of exchange can't be worse then others as much as the fact that the selling of sex just does not warrant much of a special critique.

Lastly how do I know that you or she are even women(see Jimtheprofitbolshevic on youtube for the lulz)

I am not a woman.
Yes, it DOES warrant a special critique.
you're the fucking idiot, egomaniac (einzige? please. so pathetic. get a life.)

"Yes, it DOES warrant a special critique."

Well explain then, when it comes to sexuality being mediated via money or through the camera, what is it that bothers you, I really want know hear an explanation that does not in some way fall back on judeo-moral sensations.

Now you listen hear youngun (self-confessed ageist), stop associating or confusing the censure of distasteful and demoralising acts against womyn solely as judeo-christian morality, there are many pre-western indigenous cultures which respect the status of womyn as sacred creative beings far removed from any notion of their gender being fated for sexual objectification as if it was an instinctual proclivity.

are subjective terms, and pre-western indigenous cultures are not really in a position to have a position on said topic. Judeo-Christian morality has been the primary enemy of sex on film video and photography thus far for reasons of built in a-carnal biases. I also have no issue with objectification in itself as long as it is not off the charts. Think of the Dionysian/Apollonian balance.

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