10-18-2016 Anarch Radio

  • Posted on: 18 October 2016
  • By: Anonymous (not verified)

LISTEN HERE: https://archive.org/details/AnarchyRadio101816

Kathan co-hosts. Trump=fascism? "Sully" movie is anti-tech. More clown
hysteria. Resistance in Portland. The Moth Snowstorm by Michael McCarthy
celebrates nature and its continuing beacon.
"The First Farmers" - domestication was imperialist. More cops shot.
Children of the New World by Alexander Weinstein (They Delete Their Kids).
Space travel and dementia.
Latest v. diluted product from Derrick Jensen. Action news, one call.



Kathan co-hosts. Trump=fascism? "Sully" movie is anti-tech. More clown
hysteria. Resistance in Portland. The Moth Snowstorm celebrates nature and
its continuing beacon. "The First Farmers" - domestication was imperialist.
More cops shot. Children of the New World (They Delete Their Kids). Space
travel and dementia. Latest v. diluted product from Derrick Jensen. Action
news, one call.

if you'd look before you posted, maybe you'd see things. or, based on past analysis, maybe not.

Please cease and desist in humiliating an old man, who is sometimes forgetful and suffers from poor eyesight.

Primitivism=naturalistic fascism. All imagery is tech. Reincarnation = despotism etc etc

What is "naturalistic fascism "?


Anthropological evidence and intact gather-hunter societies suggest that hierarchies, including patriarchy, didn't plague humanity until the domestication of plants and/or animals, and/or sedentary non-nomadic lifestyles emerged.

Even if despite all evidence to the contrary, some unknown, anomalous, paleolithic cultures were somehow patriarchal, recent intact nomadic gather-hunter societies have been egalitarian.

Additionally, if you insist on ignoring anthropology and living examples of egalitarian indigenous societies, John Zerzan and other anarcho-primitivists are not espousing patriarchy in any way.

So nomadic shamans carry no status? I've heard of one nihilistic anative tribe in Africa who have no cosmology or even burial rituals, which is way off the charts regarding sociological parameters or footholds to rest ones methodology upon when visiting them. Very awkward. But I'd probably get on very well with them, having similar sentiments or lack of.

No, you would annoy the shit out of them, too. This is your habitat. A-news comments. Appreciate what you have.

Nice to see the trolls at @news have developed a sense of humor hahaha

I wrote:
"Anthropological evidence and intact gather-hunter societies suggest that hierarchies, including patriarchy, didn't plague humanity until the domestication of plants and/or animals, and/or sedentary non-nomadic lifestyles emerged."

Le Way wrote:
"So nomadic shamans carry no status? I've heard of one nihilistic anative tribe in Africa..."

Of which tribe do you refer? Do they practice any form of domestication? The egalitarian gather-hunter band societies I was referring to do not have shamans. I'd be interested in looking into this so-called "nihilistic anative tribe.'

One of the great things about decentralized small scale societies (like hunter gather bands) is that they are variable. One society existing in one particular time or place doesn't create any set rules or structures that any other band or society will necessarily adhere to. There are trends across various ways of living, and some generalizations can be made.

Oops sorry they're a South American godless tribe called the Piraha, but they still have superstitions regarding evil-spirits which cancels out nihilistic, but they come close. They figure in the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis.

emile's comment below intersects with and anticipated the whole direction of this thread and my other regarding RAW, 'beingness' and the empirical "I".

one of the first things that was domesticated was 'soil'; i.e. agricultural peoples were forced to keep moving nomadically because they would wear the local soil out. moving on was just the natural thing to do because of this, and all animals did it when they depleted local stocks, even slime-mold.

'civilization' developed in egypt and mesopotamia thanks to the natural replenishment of the soil by annual flooding (Nile, Tigris-Euphrates) which meant that those people could built very permanent physical and relational structures and keep evolving them.

the concept of 'time' comes in here somewhere because 'time' is not part of a natural package; i.e. our experience is 'in the continuing now' whereas the abstraction of 'time' as in 'past' and 'future' leads people to (a) change their behaviour in the present according to their projections of 'desired future' and/or 'undesired future'. it is natural for people 'living in the now of their actual experience' to keep moving to greener pastures like the reindeer and the people of the reindeer.

as edward hyams writes in 'Soil and Civilization', the practice of fertilization of the soil allowed people to abandon their nomadism and stay put in one place. this behaviour of deliberate mechanical fertilizing [domestication of soil] was a behaviour induced by a projection of 'the future state' of the local village; i.e. their present behaviour was inductively actualized, orchestrated and shaped by a dream of the future. fertilizing thus gave these people the sense that they could control their own future. their behaviours were thus shifting from 'voyagist' (situation-induced) to 'destinationist' (intention-driven), with the result that their sensitivities to the unfolding-in-the-now relational situation were dulled by their re-orientation to those intention-driven behaviours needed to construct their 'desired future' and to avoid their 'undesired future'. 'fear of death' may also have crept in here, it being a major factor in making people prone to enslavement aka domestication by others. 'wild animals' live in the now of their actual experience, so threatening them with what you are going to do to them (what future is in store for them if they don't do as you command) does not carry a lot of weight.

the point is that there is a major correlation between the shift to a reality constructed using the abstract concept of linear 'time' as in 'past', 'present' and 'future' and the behaviours that we describe under the heading 'civilization'. the abstraction of a controllable or avoidable 'future state' derives from language and grammar and noun-and-verb language-and-grammar is ideally architected for constructing 'semantic realities' in which 'future states' are confused for 'reality' [I am going to die if I don't act immediately (in the now) to change the course of events in such a manner as to lead to a desired future and to avoid an undesired future that would arrive if i do not act in the present to change the course of events.

this sort of reasoning has hijacked the behaviours of those with noun-and-verb languages, taking them out of the now of their actual experiencing and dropping them into constructed semantic realities, making them prone to 'threats' of power-mongering others who can convince them of what a terrible future is in store for them if they fail to comply with their patriarchal dictates.

if we tried to domesticate a collection of grizzly bears or a collection of Piraha (whose language keeps them in the now of their experience), the threat of what will happen to them in the future if they don't comply is irrelevant. if it doesn't feel good right now, it will be rejected, as the 'future' is not a 'real thing', it is just a dream in one's mind, ... although, as the aphorism says; "if one dreams alone, it is just a dream, but when we dream together, it is reality".

so, what would it mean to a grizzly bear or a Piraha if the patriarch inflicted the most horrible tortures on someone who failed to follow their order, ... and declared that 'This is what will become of you if you don't follow my orders".

for people and animals that live in the now of actual experience, such talk of the future means nothing. what is real is what is what we are experiencing right now.

nomadic peoples were 'voyagists' who let the unfolding-in-the-now relational situation inductively actualize, orchestrate and shape their individual and collective behaviours.

Western civilized peoples, somewhere along the line, started 'dreaming together' of 'desired and undesired futures' that linked back to the 'present' by way of chains of cause-effect events, so that they could see a mapping of how the future state of things would be determined by their present behaviours, with the result that their present behaviours were no longer dominantly shaped by the unfolding-in-the-now relational situation they were each uniquely situationally included in, but by those behaviours-in-the-present that would map into a desired future and avoid undesired futures.

in other words, Western peoples abandoned their 'voyagist' behaviours and become 'destinationist' with intention-driven-and-directed behaviours engineered [with intelligence, reason, logic, purpose etc.] so as to attain a 'desired future'.

the capability that allows us to map from the present to the future is called 'reason' or 'logic' and the capability that allows us to engage in-the-now, in a balance-and-harmony sustaining manner with the unfolding-in-the-now relational situation we are each uniquely situationally included in is called 'intuition' (the 'sacred gift' in Einstein's terms). it is evident to our real-life experience that logic lacks the capability to make a mapping from 'earlier' to 'later' in a transforming relational continuum. reason needs a simplified world as its basis so it cherry-picks a few items to work with; i.e. reason is inherently subjective and incomplete.

so, this shift from voyagist to destinationist is an unnatural inversion that inevitably engenders 'externalities' since logical prediction of the transition from earlier to later phases of the transforming relational continuum does not lend itself to piecemeal logical projections. when we talk in terms of logically projecting the state of the future, we 'bewitch our understanding' and put ourselves, psychologically, inside a selected thing-based 'semantic reality' which differs radically from the relational physical reality of our actual, in-the-now experience. i.e.;

"“Intuition is a sacred gift, the rational mind its faithful servant. We, however, have created a society that worships the servant and has forgotten the gift." – Einstein

in other words, we have put our destination-intention-driven actualization into an unnatural primacy over our voyagist-situation-induced actualization. this is what make us easy to enslave because we are then prone to threats based on what's in store for us in the future.

for example, the WWII question as to why did millions of Jews in Europe go passively to the camps and then to their deaths, resists explanation, without acknowledging that they gave themselves up in the present hoping that things would work out in the future, that they would be liberated somehow. imagine how people would behave when being herded into box cars by a few armed soldiers if their language was not capable of constructing 'hopeful futures' that would be in store for them if they did what was necessary to avoid trouble in the present. grizzly bears and Piraha's could not be herded into those boxcars.

the submissiveness of the jews in this situation is the same submissiveness of Western civilized peoples in general, and it comes from the language-and-grammar induced belief in 'time' as in 'past', 'present' and 'future' and the notion that the future is causally constructed from the present. this view is only possible if one believes in 'being' as in moving from one state of affairs to another over 'time' [i.e. if one buys into 'time' one buys into 'being' since they are a tautological couple. ['time' is the answer to 'why do things change', though neither 'time' nor 'things-that-be' ('identity') are needed in a fluid-dynamic or transforming relational plenum].

hierarchy and 'power of one over others' (enslavement, domestication) has become the norm together with the rise of noun-and-verb language-and-grammar. Phonetic language which brought in the notion of 'past', 'present' and 'future' came into popular usage in about 800 BCE at the time of the first Olympiad in Greece (one over the other hierarchy achieved through competition, a symbolic representation of the evolving civilization, as later captured in the Roman 'veni, vidi, vici' where the subject-being is built into language as the jumpstart mover and shaper).

bottom line: we are enslaved by our belief in 'reason' since it is 'reason' which combines 'being' and 'time' to construct a 'future' (in our heads) that dictates our behaviours in the present, based on the belief that these behaviours will determine a 'desired future' and/or avoid an 'undesired future'. this is also the basis of national politics, which enslave us by actualizing, orchestrating and shaping behaviours in the present that 'reason' says will deliver us our desired futures or at least deliver us from undesired futures.

our faith in 'reason' and thus our faith in our ability to control the construction of desired futures is collapsing (it is about time) and we can thank donald and hillary for helping us to grasp the folly of such reason-contrived belief.

* * *

p.s. (edited in)

as an anarchist, think of how much you are 'your own self' when you are 'in-the-now' of your own uniquely-situationally included in the unfolding now experience, in a manner that absolutely no-one else is, and thus experiencing the actualizing of your creative potentials in a manner that no-else's are.

then think of how many others get to shape the future state of affairs (an abstraction based on inherently subjective and incomplete logical construction) that, if you believe what they say they are going to do or what you fear they are going to do, reaches back from this 'dreamed together' state of affairs, to INTELLECTUALLY (NOT EXPERIENTIALLY) actualize, orchestrate and shape your actions. your life in the now is no longer your own authentic life, it is a stunted, distorted warped monstrosity that no animal or person living in the reality of the now of one's actual experience would ever submit themselves to. others around you who are dreaming the same fearful and oppressive dream would be living similarly stunted, distorted, warped lives, and you would walk together like members of a domesticated herd of animals, ... who had had the 'amor fati' of their unique in-the-now-situation-induced creative actualization kicked out of them, reducing them to slaves to their own reason-constructed futures, ... which are in turn manipulated by the perception management techniques of self-interested political rhetoricians.

A wonderfully imaginative and sensitive anarchic musing.

i am thinking that 'bewitchment-resistant' may be an appropriate adjective because 'semantic reality' is the path through which 'our understanding is bewitched by language' [Wittgenstein] and basically the above semantic narrative resisted the assumption of 'being' which is where the 'bewitchment' comes in.

You DO like to filibuster! A discussion was just getting started that focused on actual evidence about tribes and specifically whether they were HG or not, patriarchal or not, and then you come along and dump this pomo word-bomb and the discussion completely ends, replaced by you and Le Way mutually congratulating one another.

My advice to H: if you want to discuss these kinds of primitive bands, and the evidence about them, do it with people that are serious about the topic. Perhaps some kind of separate anticiv forum is in order?

I began the direction of this thread with Primitivism=Naturalistic Fascism and emile is the most prolific commenter on indigenous anarchy. I am a chief, and Primitives leave toilet paper all over our sacred areas.

REAL primitivists wouldn't use toilet paper!

I am aware of this desecration. Primitivists have a habit of rewilding upstream from our communities usually in the pristine wilderness areas we have set aside as exclusively the Great Spirits abode. E.coli counts in the drinking water always identify from the DNA host characteristics to belong to Anglo-Saxon intruders, and since we have hunted down and expelled all neo-colonialist trappers miners and hunters, and our scouts report trespassing by semi-naked hippy types, we can only assume that it is these people who cleanse their asses at the creeks and tributaries within our catchment area. I would personally wish to cajole this JZ person about the inadequacy of his praxis and theory concerning enforced or neurotic hygiene protocols.

as robert anton wilson observed, he was happy his wife collected encyclopedias because people who consulted with one set were sure that they knew exactly what they were talking about, but having eight sets forced him to do something which people with one set rarely do, think for oneself as to how much of what one hears is true, since there is room for multiple seemingly credible views on any particular phenomenon.

if you want to constrain a forum to those who speak only the unambiguous truth on a particular phenomenon; i.e. the people who prefer to consult only one source because it reduces ambiguity, then you will end by breaking up into many forums to consider the very same phenomenon/topical issue.

Hey look, Lone Raven just figured out emile's only meaningful contribution to this place

Nnnnew yayayayork times, did ya say?
Never heard of it! I'll have to check it out, it sounds like a bastion of anti-civ critique!
Thanks for the recommendation.

Patriarchy is "naturalistic fascism"? Patriarchy has been around since the dawn of civilization. Does that mean all hitherto existing societies have been fascist? I do not understand the qualifier "naturalistic ". Is there such a thing as unnatural fascism?

Primitivism is not fascism, naturalistic or other. To say that it is is pure rubbish.I do not have a problem with anarchists like Jason McQuinn who has given articulate reasons for why he is not a primitivist. Saying that Primitivism is somehow related to fascism suggests gross ignorance.

Primitivism has got even less a fascistic character than the progressive, workerist cult of mass productivity and technological optimism of the many Leftist tendencies, that asserts a form of conformity and subjection of all living bodies in a same manner as the Nazi regime did, only with more a more equalitarian perspective.

Primitivism has a fascistic perception of historical destiny, its ideology resembles a mongrel cross-breed of Neo-Luddite and Post-Marxist idealism which would impose an unconditional anti-intellectual curfew upon the future generations of those in under-developed non-Westernized regions of the planet if it ever came to global dominance. Of course it won't, JZ should admit that he only ever intended the sect to grow out of the abandoned shell of the 60's Hippy movement in California.

Care explaining us what is so wrong with primitivist hippie communes, besides their pathetic mindless allowance of culltist authoritarianism?

What.. they reject your sacred worship of technology and the mass consumer industry?

I only see their social form as something that still holds great potential today, and only needs to be critically improved upon. There's little known in terms of social arrangement which is superior to the communal structure in human history.

There are a few good reasons to believe that modern industrial capitalism came straight out of Medieval Christian communes of Europe, that can be considered the embroys of the Carolingian (and later) town-factories, and gave rise to the widespread of literacy.

By "Medieval Christian communes" I was referring to the very-workerist Benedictan monasteries and the more secular towns and activity that developed around them. Max Weber might have been mistaken when pointing at the spread of Protestantism as the origins of industrial capitalism. Its sources may be much older, emanating directly from the Church and its Zombie Empire.

What exactly is "fascistic" about it? It's not nationalistic, militaristic or populist. It doesnt advance particularly reactionary positions on contemporary social issues (and those who do take pains to distance themselves from "primitivism", calling themselves "wildists" etc.) And as for academia, primmie essays have, paragraph for paragraph, a lot more actual citations than the average.

Are there elements of primitivism which lend themselves to fascist appropriation? Sure. But that's true of socialism, syndicalism and even organic farming. Doesn't really prove much except that those clowns aren't very original.

fascism is experienced as being under the control of an elite group of others [e.g.control is mediated by lists of allowed and prohibited behaviours].

being under the control of others comes into literate cultures in the form of intellectual, written dictates that specify what you can and cannot do, or in other words, a specification of what is 'good or allowed behaviour' and what is bad or prohibited behaviour'. these rules can change slowly or swiftly (e.g. democracy is a fascist [tyranny of an elitist majority] system where the rules defining ok and bad behaviour change slowly, whereas a fascist dictator can revise them continually in the unfolding present).

pre-literate people did not divide activities up into binary moral judgement based written lists of allowed and prohibited behaviours and maintain standing armies of regulatory and enforcement agents to compel obeissance. in pre-literate communities, behaviour-regulating oriented to eruptions of conflict/harm rather than to behaviours-in-themselves that were assessed by reference to entries on a list of 'prohibited behaviours' [e.g. people who participated in sodomy for their own pleasure were never hung for it after being informed on by some inquisitor who climbed a ladder to spy on their bedroom antics, since pre-literate regulatory orientation was to 'harm/injury/suffering'].

Western religious cultures pioneered fascism; i.e. they were literacy based and regulation was to eliminate sinful behaviour, whereas the social regulating protocols of preliterate culture oriented to 'harm reduction' [i.e. it was beyond good and evil]. fascism is based on using an overall (elitist) authority to specify and police a list of allowed and prohibited behaviours. Nietzsche pointed out the greater freedom in the beyond-good-and-evil harm-reduction orientation;

"The transvaluation of all values would mean the exaltation of life rather than the exaltation of suffering, and an acceptance of every instinct or lust as organic and therefore valid, and so beyond the scope of moral condemnation. What one desires would be merely what one desires, rather than either sinful or pious. What one desires would be the product of stimuli rather than the product of "will".
Nietzsche unfavorably compares Christianity to Buddhism. He posits that Christianity is "the struggle against sin", whereas Buddhism is "the struggle against suffering" [i.e. the orienting to 'harm reduction']; to Nietzsche, Christianity limits and lowers humankind by assailing its natural and inevitable instincts as depraved ("sin"), whereas Buddhism advises one merely to eschew suffering. While Christianity is full of "revengefulness" and "antipathy" (e.g., the Last Judgment), Buddhism promotes "benevolence, being kind, as health-promoting." -- wikipedia

Insofar as Primitivism would maintain and enforce a list of prohibited behaviours authored by an elitist group, it would be fascist.

Environmentalists globally enforcing prohibited behaviours associated with AGW carbon reduction theory [authored by an elitist group, IPCC] are fascist.

So if I want to kill every last wolf in North America, and you and some friends form a group to stop me, that would be fascist?

All Anglo-Saxons are fascists. It is their language which imparts a control or be controlled mindset, they cannot help but be conquest driven identities. Even Anglo-Saxon anarchists are leftist stooges mostly.

semantic definitions are not necessarily independent of one another, so trying to express something by combining definitions can lead to contradictions.

Western culture split apart, with no justification in physical reality, 'humans' and 'land'. this was an intellectual declaration; i.e. a 'deal' worked out between the politicians (European kings) and the Church in order to facilitate colonization. There were intellectual protests; e.g. by Bartolemeo de las Casas, but the politicians in their rush to grab up the best lands, had the bit in their teeth, so to speak.

Western culture has since had a crazy policy of supporting 'individual rights' [to 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness'] as well as a right to 'property ownership', which makes no sense at all; i.e. if property ownership is a right, and one can own as much property as one can come to acquire, one man with a monopolizing obsession could own all the property in the world and starve and/or enslave all the rest, with the support of the liberal government and laws guaranteeing individual rights.

just because we give one word-label to an 'individual' and another to another 'individual' and then again a word-label to 'land', so that we construct a semantic reality with multiple independent individuals and land that is independent of the individuals, doesn't mean that such 'semantic reality' 'makes physical sense' in terms of our actual experience. In fact, our experience-based intuition screams out at the absurdity of intellectually imputing piecemeal 'independence' in this way, to relational forms in a transforming relational continuum.

semantically we can speak of a storm-cell in the atmosphere as a thing-in-itself, but physically, there is no way to build a giant hand that will rip it out of the atmosphere and hold it as it continues to wriggle around. there are no things-in-themselves. likewise, we speak of a human in the relational space of the universe [universe=transforming relational continuum] as a thing-in-itself, but physically, there is no way to rip it out of the universe and thus no justification for our semantic allegation of the existence of independent individuals. certainly, modern physics informs us that the existence of independent individuals is impossible, so granting rights to 'individuals' makes no sense, and granting 'individuals' the right to own property is outright insanity since it is impossible to split relational forms out of the transforming relational continuum, and then argue that they should be able to own a piece of what they have been split out of. should Atman have the right to own some Brahman? How about the storm-cell, should it have the right to own a nice quiet patch of atmosphere wherein it is free to do it's own thing?

the 'semantic realities' we construct depart radically from the physical reality of our actual experience.

Western liberalism is based on the illusion of the 'independence' of the individual human and uses this illusion to underpin the notion of 'individual rights'. This inverts the natural order of things, putting 'things' like humans into unnatural precedence over the relational space in which they are relational features (appearance). this inversion is the source of a 'fascist attitude' towards nature, as in Genesis 1:28

When a Western man undertakes a program of 'rewilding', if he does not abandon his semantic reality based fascist attitude to nature and become like an indigenous aboriginal [and like a David Bohm/Schroedinger] and use his experience-based intuition to understand the world as an inhabitant-habitat non-duality, he will retain his entrenched fascist attitude born of Western dualism which has semantically split apart the 'inhabitants' from the 'habitat'.

in this sense his Primitivism = Naturalistic Fascism

Thanks for elucidating a complex relationship. And yes, I meant Lone Raven as soiling metaphysical cyberspace sites not our actual sacred sites ;)

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