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Kathan, Cliff, and Ian host. Portland MAXX attack as nihilism in action? R. M. Dunbar on friendship, indiscriminate violence and morality. Four calls.
Anonymous (not verified)
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 06:35
Kathan and Ian both seemed to say that they would support an indiscriminate attack on civilization by primitive people. And last week, John seemed to agree with a caller that it would be great if the sea level spiked suddenly to wake people up. How many would indiscriminately die in that scenario? So it's okay, even laudable, when nature indiscriminately kills people; it's okay when primitive people indiscriminately kill people; but when ecoextremists kill people, it's definitely not okay. I'm just trying to get this Primitivist Code of Morality straight in my head...
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 06:42
Collapsism & natural, 100% organic culls is the secular version.
Come to think of it, what are the apocolyptic features of judaeism, islam, & other religions?
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 17:37
Many apocalyptic features include the pursuit of a kingdom where life after death is possible for those who have obeyed the contractual precepts of their cultural legislation. So whole of lifes energies are transferred to an hierarchical priesthood on a mere promise which is actually just a psychologically rooted feelgood ego satisfying morality.
covfefe (not verified)
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 10:03
Congratulations! A complete misreading of what everyone said. Why am I not surprised?
die Weiße Rose (not verified)
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 14:39
Regarding the caller's hypothetical question, how about this - Let's say there is a native population with pagan beliefs of some fictional territory. Let's call that territory "Germany". In an effort to maintain the purity of their pagan beliefs within their territory, they decide that they need to indiscriminately kill all people who are monotheists. Let's call these monotheists "Jews". Would you condemn these "Germans"?
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 17:16
Not only Jews! There were other people on the hit-list.
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 17:30
This is a hypothetical not based on actual facts duh,,,,,
Thu, 06/08/2017 - 18:40
Fyi, the "Germans" have been monotheists for more than a thousand years, and paganism had almost completely disappeared already, well before the Third Reich. There was an attempt at reviving it with the Vril Gesellshaft, but that was quickly recuperated by Rosenberg and the SS order. I don't see where you're getting at here... there's no "defending" a religion that's been long dead.
Kinda like the equally fabricated notion of the Nazis believing themselves to be the true inheritance of Sumer and Babylon.
Fri, 06/09/2017 - 13:21
Could be what the comment was "getting at here" was how one's focus might shift depending on the names chosen rather than the actions in the hypothetical question. Substitute something like "indigenous tribes" for the "German pagans", and "modern citizenry" for the "monotheistic Jews" and your support/condemnation for indiscriminate violence may change as well. Is this distinction between parties involved important? If so, how does that correlate to the word "indiscriminate" which is key in this hypothetical question on the usage of violence.
Gunter (not verified)
Fri, 06/09/2017 - 14:37
Yes that's using the hypothetical as analogy and parallel comparison to determine a contradiction.
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 17:40
Humans indiscriminately kill all the time and discriminately kill all the time. Billions of non-human sentient beings are killed annually as vegans often point out. Ian Smith is a no-nonsense vegan and I am surprised he never ever mentions his own moral stance when he's on John's show or in the presence of John. Ian could have introduced his vegan stance into the whole issue of who lives and who dies with regard to the caller's question.
Le Way (not verified)
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 18:01
Not just in regards biomass either, meat consumption is the foremost industrial pursuit of capitalism ahead of its military preoccupations. The Semitic monotheistic cultures have extinguished the animal spirit cosmology as non-entities without any transbiological symbiotic relevance including their habitats, and this industrialized primitive cosmos, from its lowly origins in the wastelands of evil malcontent, continue to degenerate the indigenous systems of cohabitation which existed elsewhere. The threshold is approaching, the meat consumption of even Western pets could feed 50 million people in underdeveloped nations.
Willliam Gillis (not verified)
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 06:47
So yeah, I read Zerzan and Stirner and Hawking, but I was also convinced telepathy was real and I was being watched by time travelers.
Look, I'm fond of Zerzan, at least he's legitimately concerned about power and is just biting the bullets his mind drags him to.
Portland: where I work next to John Zerzan for hours on a laptop covered with science, hacker & transhumanist stickers without noticing him.
By the way, in case you were wondering. John Zerzan's drink of choice is hibiscus italian soda with coconut cream on top.
Nyarlathotep (not verified)
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 08:14
It's not just the indiscriminate attacks of nature and indigenous people they support.
KT has more than once said that what should be done is an attack on the grid to bring it all down at once. If done successfully, this would be, in terms of death toll and fear created, the greatest indiscriminate terrorist attack the world has ever seen.
JZ avoids the word revolution, but if you listen critically to what he says on the show, especially to callers, he basically supports some kind of insurrectionary uprising to bring down civilization. This, too, would involve indiscriminate attack and massive death tolls were it to actually get going.
APs hold an impossible, incoherent position - and eco-extremism is forcing them to show it and therefore pissing them off very obviously. You cannot be both for transformational violence and for protecting all /innocents/ - it's just never going to happen, you can look at history to see that (and you can look at history to see that transformational violence has a pretty sorry record of accomplishing what its practitioners want it to do, but that's another issue entirely).
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 09:01
It's a term you hear involving things like addictive psychiatric meds. This is what civilization is akin to. The tapering option is the only relational rational non pathological approach to take.
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 09:27
Agreed, but almost no anarchist wants to hear that - they will dismiss it by saying it is reformist and/or too reminiscent of "Be the change you want to see in the world".
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 10:49
Because people have never stopped addictions cold turkey before.
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 14:06
The masses have to taper off because they are mostly lovable yet stupid and have no vision or comprehension of the finite, and should be treated gently. Who are these ideologues to preach about violent revolution, children are the ones who suffer the most. Revolutionary envy and nastiness reveals itself, they wish to bring everyone down to their level of comprehension and ugliness, which is actually un-natural and against the huma(y)n instincts
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 18:24
God is unnatural and against human instincts, which if left alone, are intrinsically gentle and not warlike. Arthur C Clarke in 2001 a Space Odyssey perverted primitive history by portraying h.sapien violence as being the genesis of the human spirit. AC Clarke was very catholic.
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 18:35
PS " catholic" meaning diverse and all embracing.
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 18:58
You're railing Le Way. I thought you were against,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 10:05
"KT has more than once said that what should be done is an attack on the grid to bring it all down at once."
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 10:31
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 11:57
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 12:27
In that source, KT doesn't explicitly say this "should be" done. It reads as more of a theoretical possibility.
e.g."Looking at the likeliness of collapse and how this beast will fall, the chance of it being brought down from inside seems to be the best of possibilities."
"Again, this is far from any final comments on the subject, but an opening for where things could be going."
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 11:58
Look at the book B&G Press published: liminal.
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 10:30
"APs hold an impossible, incoherent position - and eco-extremism is forcing them to show it and therefore pissing them off very obviously. You cannot be both for transformational violence and for protecting all /innocents/ - it's just never going to happen, you can look at history to see that (and you can look at history to see that transformational violence has a pretty sorry record of accomplishing what its practitioners want it to do, but that's another issue entirely)."
False logic, and false equivalency. ITS is for indiscriminate and deliberate violence. They aren't 'targeting' anyone, they are happy to kill anyone within range of their IEDs or guns. Every death is glorified.
By contrast, whatever violence or death happens to innocents in an anarchist or AP revolution would be incidental and non-deliberate. I highly doubt APs would be just as indiscriminate, and not somehow be targeting specific authoritarian political or economic figures, as there's zero evidence to suggest otherwise. Or be celebrating every single death. If you're going to judge someone's morality, then intentions matter. Besides, no revolution can protect "all innocents". That's an impossible standard to place on any group.
And no, transformational violence does not have a "sorry record of accomplishing what its practitioners want it to". The French Revolution accomplished what it wanted to. The Bolshevik Revolution accomplished what it wanted to. The Cuban Revolution accomplished what it wanted to. Mao's Communist Revolution in China accomplished what it wanted to. The capitalist conquest of North America accomplished what it wanted to. It's actually a pretty long and successful list. There are some failures too, like the Spanish Revolution.
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 10:52
How the hell can you not be sarcastic with that list of revolutionary accomplishments. How are those accomplishments conducive to post historic anarchy?
The failures AND the successes show no example of anarchy whatsoever.
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 12:16
Ziggy. I wasn't talking about accomplishment from an anarchist perspective. And neither was Nyarlathotep when he wrote:
"you can look at history to see that (and you can look at history to see that transformational violence has a pretty sorry record of accomplishing what its practitioners want it to do,"
To the French commoners, the Bolsheviks, The Castro Cubans, the Maoists, and the colonial European capitalists, their revolutions accomplished what they wanted.
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 19:43
In the context of leviathan. What makes anarchists fundamentally different is that they are trying to bring leviathan and history to a halt. Such a thing has nothing to do with what those revolutionaries did. Revolution is a product of history and leviathan.
Dankston (not verified)
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 08:33
Many people with disabilities rely on electricity to live. Power chairs, assisted breathing devices. Don't forget JZ and his AP buddies throw these people by the wayside
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 10:09
Without the authoritarian and hierarchical social structures to produce these technologies for disabled people, how do other anarchists propose we keep them alive? Or do we make exceptions for the disabled?
I'm just trying to figure out leftist moralism.
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 10:48
What the fuck are you talking about? Obviously we need to support them. What if you slipped on a crack in the sidewalk today and became disabled? Should we 'keep you alive'?
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 12:29
Sure, but not if it means retaining the technological status quo. Sorry. I want anarchy.
Fauvenoir (not verified)
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 11:41
For your information, dumbass 10:09, I consider myself a fucking anti-civ anarchist (not as some lame identity, but by sensitivity and conscience... at least) and I've been taking care of my double-disabled old dad, and not taking unjustified money from him. I'm doing this in a social context of millenial hipsters not giving a flying fuck about anyone over 40 in their bubble-world liberal urban utopia where nobody ages and if you aren't trendy you just don't exist. Fucking yuppies that keep reproducing and having family pinata parties at the gentrified park thinking they're so great... those are the fucks who don't give a shit about the disabled.
As for the question as whether we need electricity to make their lives better, that's dubious. The current ABHORRENT social configuration, especially for the toxicity and unhealthy, compartmented life forms it systematically enforces upon proles, with the outbreaks of Alzheimer, diabetes and cancer is a result of the mass-commodity society. Of course there were disabled people in, say, pre-columbian native societies. In the case of the northern Turtle Island societies they were treated with regard and care.
Tip of the day: if you're into work and would like to help those people discarded by mass society due to their old age and physical/mental conditions, it's very likely there's huge demands for stable jobs in that sector in your area. Or you may as well keep working to produce bullshit commodity and/or bullshit "art" spectacle to lure more people into this commodity... 'sup to you!
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 12:34
Do you ever feel like a plastic bag
Drifting through the wind, wanting to start again?
Do you ever feel, feel so paper thin
Like a house of cards, one blow from caving in?
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 18:16
At least I got substance and originality lol!
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 21:58
Tho more seriously but nonetheless truthfully, the goals in a game -assumed by all players to be purely symbolic and serving a precise purpose- have got this advantage of "ontological honesty" over the real-life goals we are chasing after, orienting our life-lines towards. These are MYTHS, grandiose make-beliefs, to live under and not live by. These mythologies can be seen as necessary to organize and create some level of meaning in what we do, but then again they are still LIES.
Let us assume that our lives are some kind of game wthout winners or losers, with goals we're setting ourselves, and keep changing accordingly with the assessments of our personal conditions and continuous progresses... Doing our own life-lines towards self-set goals, that sounds like a principle I can agree with, yet from the eyes of an authoritarian dog, a brainwashed, fabricated being with little self-awareness, this is deemable as "drifting" (a behavior that I don't see much wrong with) as to his eyes it is not following any socially-prescribed, or enforced, life-line. So I can understand your morally-repressive behavior, while I'm not seeing any legitimacy in it.
The teleology of goal-oriented life is thus shedding you with a fiction that is keeping you from realizing the fact of our existence as drifters. All living beings on the planet are difters... The rocks and the sand are a story of endless driftings all across the globe. By extension our very planet, even while in elliptic orbit, is drifting slowly through the waves of the galaxy along with its solar systtem. Who or what, exactly, is NOT drifting?
And who, will NOT be collapsing, sooner or later? Even ultra-badass world-class villains like Rockefeller have... Haven't you read the Epic of Gilgamesh!?!?!?
Sleep well. Tomorrow morning... you tell me what life is about, and you'll get a donut.
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 13:41
Some tribes used to send the old and frail across a crocodile infested river first, not excluding the magnanimity of the old folk to volunteer for this task also, fuck it, they're a burden on a struggling clan and they've reached their use by date. Christ, let's go out Viking way on our feet with a sword in our hand or thrashing and flipping in the jaws of a ravenous crocodile rather than fading away surrounded by 4 walls. Some dignity and excitement please.....
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 14:20
Brave nihilist knight Le Way fights off the hordes of dragons and demons with his magic sword,,,,,,a keyboard in a basement in the bourgeois 'burbs of the West,,,,,,,,
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 16:24
No I agree. We surely'd be able to figure something out that was sustainable, but only in a anarchist communist society. My point was if you take out the grid over night, many people with disabilities would be left behind to die, like in Hurricane Katrina where whole hospitals were abandoned and patients simply left without care.
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 21:50
Nobody's talking about "taking out the grid overnight". We couldn't do that even if we wanted to.
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 13:05
There are such things as dynamos or magnetos in mechanic's terminology. They probably preceded your digitally fixated universe, but basically explaining, mechanical action to produce electricity by rotating a coil within a magnetic field. If you're in a wheel chair it means you have 2 free hands, doing what, pressing a button to activate a battery driven motor, or wearing gloves and pushing on the 2 wheels?. When you're stationary lets get these arms working and throw in some exercise at the same time rotating a magneto to power a computer or other device,,,,problem solved. Oh, you'll need to rectify the DC current to AC, but let's just deal with one issue at a time shall we?,,,,,,,
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 11:17
Gosh... Zerzan and AnarchyRadio is such a troll magnet on this site! Is this a manifestation of underlying jealousy and bitching within some gay network?
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 12:35
To use a football metaphor, 'you only tackle the one with the ball'.
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 13:24
12.35, have you never heard of "off the ball incidents like an elbow in the face?" When the ref isn't looking of course!
Wed, 06/07/2017 - 13:38
I find it strange that Ian never, has never, debated or discussed his veganism as a moral baseline with JZ on air, podcast and/or in writing. Ian has, in my opinion, an interesting website:Uncivilized Animals and I would encourage Ian and John to stop avoiding the fact that one of them is staunchly vegan and the other isn't. This fundamental difference is never addressed in the context of morality and/or primitivism by them which baffles me...the two of them seem to have an agreement never to discuss it? How can Ian feel so passionately about veganism as a moral baseline yet never challenge John about this? Maybe Ian and John could enlighten us, me anyway?
Thu, 06/08/2017 - 05:36
Its fairly obviously absurd though, you have these moralists telling people how to live, what to believe in, and who to judge, for something which offers only future suffering and hardship, a sort of penance for the ignorance of previous generations. People will not pay an ethical debt when their daily struggles are already at breaking point, or their perception of the totality is one of blissful ignorance. These biblical scenarios were last seen in Cecil B De Mille epics of the 1920s, but the prophets now are still anthropocentric eco-priests, blind to the inevitable ' lemming effect ' which nature in its awesome power has decreed upon the failures of any species and its interrelated biosphere. Let nature take its course in its self-regulatory way, and enjoy what one can scrape together in a mood of joy and empathy for ones fellow beings and one may just happen to get by 3 score and ten years of a relatively peaceful and fruitful life. Always look on the bright side of life, just saying,,,,,,, ;)
Thu, 06/08/2017 - 08:22
Nay, I say unto you, the AP spake against civilization, and against machines and medicine, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of civilizations security to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth these bitter berries. And Zerzan sent fiery bears among the civilized people, and they bit the people; and much people of the metropolis died. Therefore the city people came to Zerzan , and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against primitivism, and against thee; pray unto Zerzan, that he take away the bears from us. And they prayed for the people cast out into the bear infested wilderness also. And the Zerzan said Beware the running bear, Make thee a fast escape, and find a high wall to climb,: or you shall come to pass as bear feces, that every one that is eaten, when he looketh upon it. And Zerzan made a cage of bamboo, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a bear had chased any man, he lived within the cage, but nay, the cage was not civilization, nor was it hell. And so the world lived on sustainably into eternity., running from bears, eating sour berries, dying a lot, recovering from horrific bear attacks without medicine,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,ugh, a bear just attacked me,,,,,,,,,,hmm,,,,,,,how can I attach my scalp to my,,,,,,,,oops,,,,,,,,,,,,,h,e,l,l,o,,,,,,,anyone got some painkillers?,,,,h,,,e,,,l,,,l,,,o,,,,
Thu, 06/08/2017 - 09:29
"Planet Earth is blue and there's nothing I can do!" Would that be blue as in colour or as is mood? Questions always questions!!!! Anyway, on to my actual point: Anarchy and the internet...well...surveillance apparatus: can a person be an anarchist and use the internet? Let's face it, the relationship between the individual and the surveillance apparatus is not one based on anarchist ideas? There is hierarchy for example. Few, if any one of us have control when logged on and even, when not logged on as people can be profiled via the so-called three hops and other technology out there. We are the product and we are being sold. Anarchists are being sold every time they log on. Your data is not your data. How do anarchists feel about this? People do not even have 'the right' to be forgotten and trying to rectify misrepresentation is nowhere near as easy as being already misrepresented! Maybe people, in general, just don't give a fuck anymore? Surely, JZ has a valid point on this?
Thu, 06/08/2017 - 14:28
You're being sold every time you get out of bed. Get over it.
Thu, 06/08/2017 - 14:44
So eventually APs would make spears to defend themselves or have bear culls? Then some AP flips and spears another AP and gets exiled, but comes back with a gang of other AP exiles, raping and killing innocents and slowly building an army and Empire like the Aztecs. Other alienated AP exiles go on stabbing sprees After about 2000 years we're back to industrial revolution, but its not about the destination, its about the journey? Sci-Fi cult cliche or a movement I should devote myself to?
Thu, 06/08/2017 - 14:51
Why the hell would you be devoting yourself to anything?
Thu, 06/08/2017 - 15:06
Becoming part of an ideological movement, adopting its beliefs is being devoted to it. The becoming/being ego identity psychology is not mine, I'm just a commentator on the dominant form of zeitgeist terminology current at the moment.
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