An Open Letter to Bay Area Anarchists

An ugly precedent has been set by the episode of crude authoritarian behavior at the 2014 SF Bay Area Anarchist Bookfair. The screaming, the threats of harm, the physical intimidation directed at us personally, as well as the vandalizing of the books and magazines on the CAL Press/Anarchy magazine table by a dozen or so people associated with the Quilombo social center was out of line. Such bullying, harassment, and intimidation should not be tolerated at anarchist events or in anarchist spaces merely because other anarchists might have unpopular ideas and use words that may not align with a particular perspective on identity politics.

So far, this bullying has not just been tolerated, in fact it has been rewarded; by choosing the safest path and walking away, we have helped to encourage it. The biggest vindication for those who instigated these antics is that, despite their threats of inflicting physical harm on other anarchists, and despite their refusal to talk about what they found so upsetting about our presence -- even with those who, despite their best efforts, were unsuccessful in de-escalating the conflict -- they were not asked to leave the bookfair.

Those from Quilombo who menaced us no doubt feel justified in targeting us, but the three of us individually, our project, and our six year old son are not actually their enemies. We have spoken to several people who are their comrades, and have expressed our willingness to engage in a mediated resolution to this conflict. We urge anyone who was frightened, appalled, or annoyed by the disruption at the bookfair to stand in favor of verbal mediation and against physical intimidation.

John, Lisa, and Lawrence
CAL Press/Anarchy magazine;



Sounds like some 18 year old anarchists have been hanging out with some liberal commies and cops. Good luck bay area.

subject 1: white ally in oakland

did not expect to lol that hard. thank you anonymous

at least we know not to support CAL Press

Just refer to the dictates of your cult's ideology. Better yet, rely on rumor of hearsay... that'l work for sure!

What was the argument/altercation concerning, if i may ask?

i was also wondering this. and saw some passing thoughts expressed about it on twitter. but not much more.

from that i take it ajoda editor was involved in a fight and kicked out of #baabf because other side thinks he is a "white supremacist" or something like that for comments made...?

I'm actually pretty curious. I mean these asshats sound like liberals, but idk more details would be nice. Though I have my own critiques of identity politics racists often use anti-identpol as a shield.
Anyhow most people can't help, but bring kids into this fucked up world and just cause your privileged enough to make a bubble for them doesn't mean it's okay to use your kid as a shield when you do something fucked up.

calling ajoda liberals? stopped reading right there. fuck off. you obviously know nothing.

i said they sound like liberals and then was like I have no idea what any of this is
so yes i know nothing and would like to know more is that fucked up?

yes, "burn black churches" ...this candid comment he made during a public meeting was called out at the bookfair, he was told to leave. being an anarchist doesn't give you a pass to make blatantly racist comments. especially in historically black oakland.

what people did at the bookfair is nothing compared to what could have happened if the comment was made around black people and not a room full of majority white anarchists–you're lucky you actually haven't actually gotten an assbeating for it. and the fact that there is no sort of apology or remorse for these words, only displays you're white-entitlement.

sucks that the child was frightened, but maybe he'll learn not to spout racist banter.


SETTLERS GO BACK TO EUROPE and collapse with your white supremacist anarchists cults....why did y'all "Greek Anarchists" fetish fall apart, 'cuz you settlers can't even understand your own sickening system and power structure. You fear Blackness because you have no identity, you are a worthless in the scheme of your "history" when you all came out of a cave and can't even comprehend because at the end you all are lifestyle revolutionaries who mentally masturbate
to books while your parents send off money for you to occupy stolen land... white people have no understanding of liberation thats why you all fallow these egoist secular non-anarchists cults...

So much for "no borders".

you forgot the part about you all masturbating in the church while burning anarchist books...

Right....sure....doubtless he said "black churches" specifically and not any/all churches. Certainly nothing taken out of context there.

He specifiedblack. I heard the words out of his mouth (not that you trust some random @news comment anyway )

say "black churches" specifically.
i read the tone (to the extent that anyone gives a shit), as EVEN black churches, as in--while some people might quail before this idea, i hold firm to the principle of all churches.

but when you get to that kind of nuanced interpretation of a loaded statement in a room full of strangers, you're already doomed.

Lawrence dared to touch the sacred topic of church. Is it really that difficult to see how Christianity for any race is problematic and anti-anarchistic? Getting ejected from a fucking anarchist bookfair? Jesus Christ

How the orginal dialogue played out: Lawrence stated that he thinks all churches should be burned. Someone asked, "but what about black churches?", to which Lawrence responded, "yes, burn black churches." AS IN BURN ALL OF THE FUCKING CHURCHES! Folks defending churches can fuck off. Somehow institutionalized forms of oppression and morality get a pass if they are run by marginalized peoples? Is it in the interest of such peoples (falsely assuming that a homogeneous group under a banner of race exists) to remain further exploited, subjugated, repressed, etc. by the church?

Of course there are plenty of white churches to burn first, but go to a fucking religion fair or something if you want to spread the good word of the church's role in providing sanctuary for otherwise disillusioned black folks in low-income areas, but make sure not to bring up any of the genocidal or otherwise fucked history of Christianity's role in shaping our God-fearing, morality-enforcing, duty-bound, patriarchal society

I am ready to Vote for Hillary Clinton and you better be too you fucking manarchist

Anarchist: Burn all presidents!

Liberal: What about Obama?

Anarchist: Burn him too.

Liberal: Racist.

That is exactly what happened. Exactly.

except, no. obama is the president of an imperial nation-state and not all churches facilitate such a rulership position. i mean most do, but I think members of that community should be the ones that get to make the decision in most cases

Not all anarchists are atheists. Yeah, "No Gods No Masters" has been around for a while. So have religious anarchists.

You wanna talk about "safe" spaces? Safety is an illusion for many people. Making "safe" spaces in these anarchist circles so often precludes SOMEONE's safety. Ya'll banter on about militancy like it's some fucking badge and then when someone gets a little intimidated for a statement that is racist (oh sorry, your white ass doesn't consider what you said racist--oh wait, you can do that. you have the "identity politics" kkkard to flip), you're all off a sudden all liberal pacifist anarchist suddenly.

Your puritanikkkal version of anarchism that says someone can't be religious shows how narrow your politics are. Religious anarchists don't come after atheists. So why don't you leave us the f* alone? Stop treating Muslim sisters like they need saving from patriarchy and that all religious communities equate to whatever unfortunate experience you may or may have not had with religion. Not all religious people are Spanish conquistadors, either. NO ONE involved with that was trying to defend the history of the church.

So yeah, you SHOULD be intimidated to be in West Oakland at a book fair after saying some shit like that. And very smooth of you for leaving out the context of the conflict and trying to bring your kid into it. Teach your kid not to say racist shit.

stop making yourself into such a little fucking victim. wear ear plugs all day if you are so offended by everything. safe space garbage exists for your friends in order to protect them. quimblo style idiots won't be able to play these little games with that safe space mindset. eventually someone will beat one of these idiots in self defense. then we will never hear the end of how mean racist anarchists vicious assaults make the bookfair a unsafe space.

"So why don't you leave us the f* alone?" Talk about smooth. Yea nothing hides a lie quit like a role reversal now does it? Yea they weren't trying to defend the church, just trying to intimidate anarchist into accepting your churches authority.

Wow, how diseIngenuous. To leave out the context makes you a lying piece of shit, and clearly not an ally. Seriously, whoever was responsible for this and continues to perpetrate this lie shouldn't be allowed anywhere near anarchist spaces, especially ones that purport to be 'safe' spaces. What the hell? No Gods, no masters is one of the oldest anarchist slogans in existence and anarchism has always been hostile to religion as a form of control. This clearly has nothing to do with race despite the efforts of some to twist it that way.

white people have no souls

And you're lucky that white guilt prevented people from giving you an ass beating. Ugh, this sounds like Smack a White Boy all over again. Authoritarian POC, fuck off. Your skin color doesn't give you a pass on disrupting anarchist events through physical intimidation.

crackers be mad that their racist asses are being confronted

Wait, is this Suey Park? If not, you're doing a pretty good impersonation. Except worse, because you're not content to keep your idiocy to the confines of Twitter.

my bad.

To make you quildumbos act the retards that you are! My goodness. Renzo Novatore burnt a church in his youth, its an anarchist tradition. It's not something that turns me on personally but for fucks sake get with the history already.

And how bout fuck you from a non nationalist POC.

People burning churches that oppress them is way different then a white boy telling people to burn all black churches.

Black churches do oppress people. By opposing the Oscar Grant rebellion these self-appointed "community-leaders" in the black churches outed themselves as state collaborators. What the hell is not oppressive about taking the side of killer cops?

"by choosing the safest path and walking away, we have helped to encourage it"

"We have spoken to several people who are their comrades, and have expressed our willingness to engage in a mediated resolution to this conflict."

These two perspectives don't go together. You need to realize who you're dealing with and treat them as if they are members of a Stalinist anti-anarchist party that's come purely to disrupt an anarchist event, because that is very close to the actual truth.

Why do people say authoritarian when they mean something more like bully-like.

Authoritarian to me means using officiated authority to justify abuses and oppression etc not some people using bully tactics.

Does anyone know?

because they liberal

Not all authoritarian expressions of social, economic, or political power need be "officiated" or at least it may not necessarily outwardly appear to be such . Some of it can be quite secretive, as in the case of the various Maoist (or Stalinist) sects and their standard organizational/operating procedures. Could even be undercover cops involved. Also bullies are useful idiots and easily lend themselves out to be exploited by copes and capitalists alike.... the history of the word/concept goes way back. The Feds (or even local authorities) often try to infiltrate and manipulate groups and events from behind the seance. AJODA's been publishing for decades now and I think Lawrence's (anarchist and anti-racist)record speaks for itself. If anything this should raise questions about Quilombo, who they are and exactly what happened to the Holdout info shop.

Wow, the worst part about a lot of white anarchist is that they only know how to talk to other white anarchist. It's rare that i meet white anarchist that can relate to their less privileged comrades.

you really think privilage is that simple. you believe black anarchist= less privilaged and white anarchist=more privilaged. you are lost my friend. hope you expand your mind and find your way to the big world out there someday.

see what i mean? this mother fucker already discounted his race and gender privileges.

*Skin color privilege. do you speak it?

things have been great since everyone i know checked out of the oppression olympics. people stop playing those games once actions make clear there is no longer profit to be gained.

Wow! I'm white all of a sudden! Is't it more respectful to assume that other POC's are intelligent enough to understand what I'm saying. Aren't you selling POC's a bit short on that? Would you have me baby talking them?

Wow this is some snitchjacketing. Shits dangerous and shouldn't be taken lightly.

Not taking any shit! Who are these non-anarchists that took over the Holdout then started coming after people at the anarchist book fair? Well....?

Also "...their refusal to talk about what they found so upsetting about our presence.." makes them stand out publicly as authoritarians (with something to hide perhaps) in what is supposed to be an specifically anarchist event.

Yeah cause black anarchists are obviously the ultimate authoritarians! Just because they don't want to talk to you is likely because you would be hella annoying to talk to and you obviously haven't gotten a reality check. Go talk to some white anti-racists or something who can help you understand why you are being so oppressive.

No because it's more likely they are trying to hide the fact that they are not anarchist at all and probably afraid to com out and declare publicly who and what they really are. Well....? Most real bay area anarchists know who cal press is...who the fuck are you?

"real bay area anarchists". I didn't know who Cal Press was until after the bookfair...

People who think they're some big fucking deal, usually aren't outside of their own heads.

Okay fine! CAL press ain't no big deal. So why don't the people that confronted them step up and identify themselves? Their accusations must be bullshit if they are afraid of any public debate on the matter.

no, this open letter is super disingenuous. The people doing the confronting expressed verbally exactly why they were upset.It wasn't some secret.

No it was no secret that they were intentionally trying to distort the position of well known bay area anarchists by taking shit out of context and using these manipulated facts to discredit them as racist. Refusing any sort of rational, nuanced, and in-depth discussion or examination of these allegations pretty much exposes the whole operation as totally contrived. Resorting to physical intimidation in the absence of any such public discussion can only be taken as authoritarian, even if it was not organised by undercover cops (yet that's not ruled out either).

Wait, isn't them posting this here a direct indicator that they are being authoritarian? Trying to get the support of other anarchists to justify their racism? That just won't do.

Well let's see hear.. anarchist publicly supporting one another is somehow anti-anarchistic or "authoritarian"... Man you really are clueless about the meaning of that word aren't you?

Anarchists are not so much apposed to 'authority' (as in knowledge or wisdom) as they are to the disproportionate power it often bestows onto political, economic, and religious institutions. So yes it can also do the same for fringe political or social groups, cliques, and sects as well (and this event was supposed to be an anarchist book fair not a liberal one). Yet that isn't that big a deal because it only means that as a metaphor "authoritarian" is an inept word. Unfortunately there is no word that comes closer to meaning "of and for centralized controlled collective power". Hear we have a publication represented by two adults and a child merely making an appeal for a mediated public dialogue and/or debate to hopefully get to the bottom of this. Is the Quilombo social center afraid of such a public debate? Would that shed too much light on them and reveal dubious allegiances or establishment loyalties? What are they afraid of? That is exactly how anarchist should operate- via public debate, not physically intimating one another in the presence of children, in a space that is supposed to be more conducive to intellectual exchanges.

Those are interesting questions but first they should answer why the hell should anyone care. There's always the danger of physical harm and what I see is poc catching most of it so white people, intuitive understand where your place is and stop fucking complaining so much. And stop taking every thing said so damn personal. At the end of the day, we all know there's plenty of pain to go around and there really isn't anything as special as these little spectacles.

"....stop taking every thing said so damn personal" Man that's some fucking irony right there!

Between this and the Decolonization panel, the Bay Area Anarchist Bookfair sounds strangely antagonistic to anarchists. Who the hell organized this clusterfuck?

In the immortal words of Tim Armstrong, "This ain't no Mecca, man. This place is fucked."

Nah, the Bay has so many anarchist and other wacko counterculture strands going on that it actually AVOIDS the kind of messed up psycho-drama that plays out in anarchist scenes in smaller places, where if there's a power struggle over whose struggle is more important, or even an allegation of sexual misconduct or assault against a single individual, it will tear the whole so-called "community" apart.

I saw crazy stuff like that happen in Eugene, Oregon in 2001, and heard about stuff around the same time in Richmond, Virginia, that could never happen in the Bay Area. And I've heard of so many other insane similar situations.

But usually the Bay is too big for that, at least back in my day. Only I got driven out a few years ago by the rents. Maybe imported 20something hipsters from the midwest or Portland are bringing their self righteous intolerant small town High School-style-clique psycho-drama!

But seriously, I think the Bay is fine, it's just the SF Bay Anarchist Bookfair that's another situation. People think that who is there is really "important", and represents anarchism or radicalism or whatever to the world. So they pie people (2011) or trash their literature and physically threaten them (2014). But I have to say, the pie-ers had a HELL of a lot more class, and a better case -- Lierre Keith is a liar and a cultish authoritarian.

But I wonder if the Quilombo people were at all consciously taking their lead at all from those who confronted Keith's DGR cult at the Law And Disorder conference in Portland 2013...

Anyway, anybody dissing Lawrence as a racist or a liberal is an idiot. Lawrence Jarach and the rest of these folks have been radical post-left anarchists longer than me (and to most of you reading this I'm OLD) and probably since most users of this site were probably in diapers. Read some back issues of AJODA from the 90's.

Jarach can be acerbic, but if you need everything to meet your PC language rules or you're going to get a group together and go try to beat somebody up and trash their literature, you're a jerk and a fool, plain and simple, and nobody should take ANYTHING you say seriously.

It reminds me of something out here in middle America a few years ago, where a 40 something anarchist wanted to be part of a big May Day event in 2012 alongside a bunch of college age Occupy types, and she wanted to do a public art installation with nooses for the Haymarket martyrs, and after she explained in depth her logic (and convinced me it was not stupid when I'd been sceptical) a bunch of brain dead 20 year old "radical" midwestern white kids told her that her art would just look like a lynching and if she put it up they would come and smash it and attack her.

Self righteous radical youth who attack those who they think disagree with them many not be fascists or authoritarians necessarily, but they sure are JERKS.

I was in Eugene in '01 too. We probably know each other in real life.

The Bay was hardly immune to drama back in the day either; surely you can't be unaware of this if you're shouting out to AJODA from the 90s? I realize nostalgia is a hell of a drug, but go read The Baby and The Bathwater if you've forgotten.

Also, "twentysomething hipsters" from the Midwest today are far, far smarter than we were back then. Really.

KKKracker what the definition of "post-left anarchists" ...A colonizer is still a colonizer no matter the shade of pink

Jesus Christ just visiting their website told me all I need to know about these color supremacist clowns.

On a greater note I don't envy what people of post leftist persuasion have to put up with when it comes to rot of '1968' anarchism. I sometimes wonder if anarchism is even savable at this point with these cancerous Marxist derivatives who only exist because of the historical defeats of anarchism after 2 WWs and the Marxist vacuum that ensued. Oh to get back to the spirit of 1911.

PS fuck Quildumbo and all they stand for. Just embrace nationalism already and be done with it.

" Oh to get back to the spirit of 1911."

Mawson's shack, Antarctica. Good luck! ;)

kill whitey

"color supremacists" lolololol

and yall say olympia is dramatic? takes one to know one.

Listen! A dying gasp from Olympia who seeks to say "LOOK! We still exist!"

Lol! The bay area is fucked. Try going into the wildcat social center when its supposed to be open and you will be met with cold stares a locked door behind you and a whole bunch of weed smoke. Now rewind a year back and the door was wide open with lit to be displayed, computers to use and all kinds of neat stuff going on.

??? the wildcat was in seattle, ya doof

Oops, fail at attempt to pretend one was there!

But really, The Wildcat never was.

anarchism is fucking retarded, this is why I'm a Maoist now. At least a vanguard in the people's war can have structure, and not allow any divisions like this to get in the way of the struggle.

these are anarchists acting like maoist brats, ...anyway, when i was fifteen and first getting ino political literature (i'm nineteent now) i
jokedc around a lot and called myself a maoist because i knew i was an authoritarian psychopath with a lust for order. but really its not that funny, the tendencies that come together to create maoism are maybe the worst thing ever besides being the devil himself.

New personal rule:

Identity politicians get punched in the teeth on sight from now on.

No more pretense of camaraderie.


So all black people, trans people, and women are share the same essentialist/reformist politics when it comes to identity? Fuck out of here.

The term Manarchist is the hugest fucking joke ever... Talk about gender essentialism. IGTT 0/10

i definitely remember white trans people being threatened with physical violence during the whole chicago bibpop fiasco. and POC being threatened if they refused to break up with white partners.

that was a real thing that happened, not an anonymous post on the internet.

I concur that was a real thing that happened. Get ready for shit like that in the Bay Area. Stop being guilty now, you've been warned.

Black churches were burnt by white supremacists in the 60's during the civil rights movement. Also, like it or not the churches provide many people with food, some form of infrastructure, and in many cases support for undocumented people. It makes sense that people are pissed off about such a comment, given this context.

On the other hand, obviously churches play a pacifying/ideological role in maintaining oppression. They ought to be destroyed.

Perhaps it's good that this conflict is happening, hopefully it evolves into conversation and dialogue so we can all grow from this difficult situation.

the hand that feeds is the hand that holds the leash.

First, as said above apparently he was *asked* if black churches were included. It's not like he said it as some sort of standalone shock statement which would have been cringe worthy at the least. So fuck these people who confronted him straight up. Sounds like a bunch of children who have so much fucking guilt from growing up in a middle class lifestyle having little to no poor or black friends now they look for anyone they deem "revolutionary by skin color" to tell them what to do.

What a bunch of fucking idiots. United States radicals are self obsessed and completely lost in the forest when it comes to defining and pushing anarchism as a theory. Just the idea of a bunch of fucking idiots losing it over this is sad. Like was said previously, I wouldn't be surprised if an undercover is influencing this idiotic shit.

Move back in with your parents or something please.

this ^
fucking obvious these people are suffering from some weird white guilt bs. you are trying to roll on someone FOR THAT? not going to solve your racism issues by threatening to beat a guy consistently against The Church as a basic of his politics.

Except that for many blacks and Latinos the church is a nucleus of community, something that whites only seem to value when coopting poc ones. It's like arguing against welfare because you know the state bro but having nothing to replace the fundamental necessities it provides. For many blacks and Latinos the church like welfare is a question of life and death and bro is being irresponsible and that's a subtle form of racism by neglect.

no shit regarding the role of the church. hardly makes this episode less ridiculous or embarassing. if an anarchist was asked if they were against the state they would say yes. if you followed that up with a yes/no "even state social programs" they would say yes they are against state social programs. isn't because they don't care about poor people. this is fucking 101 bro. if you can't disentangle these things for a more nuanced discussion than bro against The Church therefore bro anti-black why would you be interested in revolution at all? what isn't complicated? this is just the umpteenth idiocic varient of arguing beliving or doing a thing can negatively impact an already marginalized person therefore it is always wrong. we fucking get it already. the march could prevent a working class person from getting to a job. the action is wrong because someone who could be undocumented and they might be somewhere nearby. some workers are too poor to strike. not voting risks electing this guy who support doing this awful thing to this group. it's a fucking reality of tensions and complexity. you own that and discuss the possible consequences. the only alternative is remaining trapped in a logic of guilt where you can't do anything outside the dominant system logic.

great response to some straight up fucking confused people

And the article says the behavior was authoritarian therefore bad...authority is relative so what's your point? It's not confusion it's abstractions devoid of facts such as ajoda and kkk apologia article by zerzan to name just one example.

Are there any whites you believe haven't said or done a racist ot fucked up thing? Much less taken a position without what you felt was the appropriate sensitivity to context? So far the defense is that he took a position on destroying organized religion that coincides with most historical anarchist thought. And that his magazine published a problematic article by someone else. Ok... Ever been to a block party? Ever been to any party? Ever gone to a community meeting? Ever talked to a Democrat? Ever met a friends parents? Jesus, only 25% of black people surveyed said "homosexuality is not wrong at all." The world is a scary scary place full of people who hold fucked up views.

I'm just not getting the sense you realize how absolutely fucking crazy this all sounds. There must be quite a disturbing bubble of identity groupthink and racism guilting for a dozen people to convince themselves that rolling on this guy to evict him from the bookfair had anything to do with combating racism.

yes. it is exactly like that. and fuck anarchymag for consistently printing pieces like this:

or this:

you do realize that a lot of "latinos" that you claim to speak for...BURN CHURCHES DOWN ON THE REGULAR?

not long ago, anarchists in peru burned down a church in solidarity for marie mason. anarchists in mexico, bolivia, and chile regularly act against the church... so fuck off with your patronizing shit.

as for 'black churches'-- they were some of the most vocal in trying to stop the oscar grant riots, and were ignored by the majority black rioters as agents of pacification.

not everyone thinks the damn same about everything, there is no monolithic "black" or "latino" communities, and lawrence's statement was clearly not intended to be some klan shit, but a consistent position about burning all churches down...a position which plenty of people--black, white and latino--also share.

What you guys do is point to problematic positions by non whites and use that as an excuse to assuage your white guilt but if you really understood the mechanisms that lead to that (assuming you are not just being racist and disingenuous) you should in fact feel more guilty not less. Ignorance of one group is power for those that oppose them, so often such ignorance is imposed violently. And so my answer is to redefine that ignorance as struggle and perseverance. On a different note, I think that Latinos in Latin countries compared to Latinos in the US didn't always make for easily constructed broad categories. Or even when comparing Chileans and Mexicans who have different historical relations vis a vis church, state, capital, indigenous people and Europe. The Catholic church had often been complicit in operation condor and the US right wing terror. In the US, the Catholic church was less well received. The only Catholic president I can think of was assassinated.

except no one here appears to feel or believe they are guitly. that ship has sailed. these weird power plays don't get you very far anymore in many circles. the game that someone is alright right or always wrong based on white vs. poc doesn't work if people refuse to play. find a new trick?

hows the view down there shining the white mans boots?

what makes you think it was white people doing the confronting?

So are we still the 1960's? Or are the 60's supposed to be the center of our cosmos or some other liberal hippy bulshit?

I mean churches with authoritarian priesthoods are fucked up, but I've met some okay godly folk. Like I don't buy the whole "god is real" thing, but I also think burning every church when many of them are at least somewhat radical is kinda fucked up especially when some churches are cornerstones. Perhaps instead of burning all churches we should start advocating going beyond and questioning all does seem kinda racist to want to burn black churches and not because POC are magical people that can do no wrong.

I agree that churches can take on different contexts in different situations but there is nothing whatsoever racist in what Jarach said even if he takes on an old school approach that isn't personally mine.

I think all politicians need overturned "EVEN BLACK POLITICIANS?"
I think all NGOs need destroyed "EVEN BLACK RUN NGOs?"
I am against gentrification "EVEN THOUGH POOR BLACK FAMILIES WHO WANT TO SELL WILL MAKE ENOUGH PROFIT FROM WHITE DEVELOPERS TO SUPPORT THEMSELVES AND THIER FAMILIES" are an anarchist! Congratulations, you won the "things anarchists think based on being an anarchist" game good job!

I agree with everything you say here and am still think it's fucked up for a white dude to say that we should burn all churches including the black ones.

then you have some weird internalized guilt and hang-ups. you don't see that putting your politics into actual practice involves telling people hard truths. you want the ideas without the complexity and costs.

This reeks of anti-blackness.

So is "anti-blackness" the same thing as anti-essentialism? Is skin color the essential marker that determines if or not a person is black? So do you feel a need to impose those cultural determinations onto everyone else even though that has not gotten us any closer to "liberation"?

Where were all these gangs of politicos during the hope bloc debates? Think of all the opportunities to attack racist anarchists not checking privilage to get onboard the obama train.

I am embarrassed for all of you. Aren't there some things to smash out there or something?

dont you see they are smashing things? this bold offensive against the racist white hegemony is reverberating across the country. racist crackers beware. your days clarifying whether complete opposition to an institution includes the parts of that institution which include black people are numbered.

Wow, anytime a white anarchist gets called out, they just have to go and reinforce white supremacy to every facet that they can, including posting here where obviously everyone is burnt out by white anarchist voices... Seriously, bullying? Kindergarten language? You all are obviously being messed up. This is a high signifier that you DONT KNOW WHATS UP. Take some time and actually check yourselves and maybe you will be able to realize how you are responding is exactly whats wrong with the entire white anarchist scene.


I think you have typo. Let me help you.

I thought we took the IGTT off as being too redundant. I apologize

Putting aside the retard rating, I have to say anon, the problem is not anarchism it's you. When it comes to your pathetic panther privilege politics you are talking about something that was born in a post WW2 time frame where there simply was no anarchism. Unfortunately when many non white radical tendencies were happening they went for what was available and not what was appropriate. Marxist Vanguard ideology was what was mostly on sale, libertarian ideology was in short order. Until you figure out that you and your politicos are rooted in those inherently flawed politics you will always be the pathetic intellect that you are, and inevitably, because you are a Marxist-Vanguard derivative you will always have problem with anarchism in its consistent applications.

That was a beautiful sermon father, brought tears to my eyes. I especially love the part where you define your cult's sanctified and coded jargon like "called out", "white supremacy" and "check"...what...(white "privilege" maybe?). Thank god someone has finally restored our faith in an objective "right" and "wrong" and don told us all "whats Up"....

I'm happy you've finally seen the light comrade, now sail back to Europe cracker its a long swim.

how can i sail back and swim at the same time?

by paddling with your hands, or tying the boat to your feet as you do the back stroke.

The bay is looking really childish...

First of all you would think that people might be aware of the sensitivity of for example: Nazis burning a synagogue. And not respond with simplistic arguments of No Gods! No Masters!

Second of all you would think that people might be able to have a nuanced enough understanding of the anti-religious tradition in anarchism for example: anarchists in the spanish revolution burning churches, and executing church officials, for their roles in supporting fascism in poor communities through charity, and controlling peoples'spirituality.

Maybe if you childish motherfuckers can't have a theoretical discussion like adults, you can focus your eyes on the struggle instead, and not give cointelpro so much ammo?

I bet the people who wrote this never even burnt down one church in their entire lives

they don't do shit, but only write about it


This is what happens when people get into "anarchISM" via the Furious Styles monologue.

*by this I mean the identity politics actions that this letter is addressing

Get out of here with you, all you accomplished by posting this was exposing yourself as authoritarian racist.

An appeal to dialogue and reason is now to be regarded as somehow authoritarian?...your logic is truly impeccable.

from what i know the comment was that "anarchists would burn down churches EVEN the black ones."

easily taken as racist when it was clearly said to talk about how there is no room for religion in anarchist thought.

bute sure take it out of context and scream racism. its easier to deal with.

it didnt actually turn racist until they brought it on here, they were inconsiderate and assholes and didnt think to ask the person who asked about black churches what they thought and LISTEN to what that person responded with... but now its racist cause of all of the anti-black stereotypes they laid out and all of the so called support they want for not being able to check themselves before saying "all churches even black ones." having no awareness of historical legacies of white supremacy and black church burning (that was not about anarchism and religion but about violence against black folks).

"anti-black stereotypes"


Yawn. This is such weak attempt to shift the discussion. The original confrontation was ridiculous pointless posturing based on childish understandings of language and revolution. So now you are trying to shift the issue to the fact they posted about it? Gtfo.

Yes I'm sure they weren't aware of the history of black churches being burned by white supremicists, because so few people know about that. Yeah, that's believable.

Still doesn't change the fact that the person asking "even black churches?" is probably a sniveling little shit just begging for the response they got out of probably frustration of hearing such nonsense "Yes, even black churches." Now in retrospect maybe "Shut up" would have been a better response but I can't help but have tremendous sympathy for someone responds to a stupid question with exactly the answer they want to hear just to highlight their stupidity. As other have said. "Even Obama?" "Even state programs that help people?" "Even good cops?" Yes, yes, all yes now shut the fuck up and admit you don't know what anarchism is at all.

So out of context statement blown out of proportion and long time revolutionary is threatened in front of his kid? Yeah. Maybe I'm glad i started on the east coast.

On the one hand this drama should be totally called #EvenBlackPresidents on the other hand if old white dudes twenty years out of sync with anything want to smugly posture without the slightest bit of nuance they should own the drama and solve it in one night by burning down a bunch of white churches.

Where's emile when you really need him? I don't mean for content, but rather to begin some amusing diversion from this oh so dreary debate!

still stuck in jail unfortunately. send a letter of support!

I'm sending a hacksaw blade hidden inside a keyboard for our intrepid commenter!

what i imagined happened...

burn all the churches! becomes new meme, out in theatres this may day

apoc nationalists turn out to be cops and / total idiots / republicans



Nobody called the cops? WTF? It's a Bay Area anarchist bookfair tradition to call the cops -- like last year when the organizers called them on picketing Homes Nots Jail-ers, or a few years back when Lierre Keith called 'em on her pie-ers...maybe things are different now it's moved to the East side of the Bay...

lol at thinking these people would have done the action if they thought anyone would call the cops. The truly sad part is that other anarchists attempted to "de-escalate" this. The continual leninist bullshit will only end when onlookers start fighting back.

So let me get this straight. Not that I am paranoid or anything but

1. Random audience member asks asinine leading question to long time respected anarchist
2. Long time respected anarchists answers it honestly and obviously
3. Group of people use the pretext of a random audience members question to embarrass a long time respected anarchist

That sounds like some straight up cointellpro shit times 1000. What the fuck are we going to do if we cant handle that type of shit?

Look, it might just be a bunch of confused kids that have tons of white middle class guilt. But that sort of action reeks of a setup of some sort. I get that younger kids coming from the suburbs are totally fucked in the head and obsessed with themselves much of the time. It's a problem. But letting people who have given their lives to the movement get fucked over like that is straight up unacceptable.

Fuck these liberal pieces of shit.

No its fine, it's one less white guy in Oakland.

Have you ever noticed that the "white queer" identity is not only the preferred identity for police infiltration but also the throwaway identity for attacking and insulating yourself from attack. Use it when you need it, drop it when you don't

Okay, so if that's not just another stereotype, then which police infiltrators have consistently written for anarchist publications?

What infiltrators have identified as white queers? I'm not aware of one. One infiltrator from the Toronto G20 responded to criticism by calling everyone racist for questioning him. The other one was a woman who refused to give any details about her past because she was fleeing an abusive relationship and didn't want to be triggered by the memories. Go figure, never would have expect infiltrators to notice or use either of those lines!

You really need to lurk moar. Police agencies both federal and state have been sending lesbians into radical groups that look the part for a few years now. Multiple have been found out I mean just last week the Midwest case was unsealed. Essentially cops just bank on radicals being too liberal and stupid to question an oppressed person. And I'm not talking about your sociopath darby, I'm talking about actual cops.

That's not even to touch on the other part that has been uncovered through foias lately. That the lgbtq scene is a go to for cops to get information about radical groups. This being due to so many of them wanting to integrate and vote for Hillary Clinton. And of course actual gay cops who have respect in those communities.

So you might think this shit is borderline annoying but these dinggusses at the holdout are actually perpetuating not only a stupid ideology. But a dangerous one for anarchists.

1) it wasn't a "bunch" of anything, it was two people verbally confronting the folks behind the table
2) why are you assuming they were white? Sometimes poc go outside and say and do things too

1. I am going off of what has been stated already
2. Just because I pointed out the problem of white middle class guilt doesn't mean I think all people who were in support of this were white. Fucking christ man get off your bullshit identity politics that causes you to just search for anything that will make your call out meter go off. What the fuck is wrong with people.

The United States anarchist whatever is fucked if we can't extricate ourselves from this liberal bullshit and provide a radical alternative.

Can't wait till we have "anarchists" telling us we are sexist due to not voting Hillary Clinton 2016

Chill out grrl im just clarifying facts. Ppl in this comment section are explicitly positioning the confronters as white when that may or may not actually be the case. I know white is the default identity in the popular imagination but thats not ok, & the fact that youre getting so mad about that is really telling.

Cuz its like u know, when ppl are like "oh protestors/rioters/BB are all just middle class white kids" or cops are like "theyre all outside agitators"? Shits annoying.

and fuck respected anarchists

Burn the Churches.
Even black churches?
Yes, even black churches.

Maoist national liberation politics is authoritarian bullshit.
Even Quilombo Social Center?
Yes, even Quilombo Social Center.

Fredy Perlman laid this out over 2 decades ago for anarchy's sake.

Especially The Holdout (only legitimate name I recognize).

You all must be really weak, submissive, and guilty to let people take this space away from you and exclude you from it. I'd hate to see you interact with cops in the same manner. Also, what happened to the ambitious printing project that was run out of the Holdout? They squashed that too didn't they, better than a police unit ever could. Thank god there won't be any more anarchist literature being printed from there! This tendency is a godsend for law enforcement.

Wait, this quilombo bullshit used to be the holdout? What the Fuck? What happened?

These Quilombo Social Center fools remind me just a little of the identity politics cult that disrupted the 2009 Pittsburgh Crimethinc. Convergence...wonder if there's any cross over in membership...

And are any of these Quilombo idiots the ones in this video?

There's the young charismatic guy who gets a pass to make huge generalizations about how all POC think and feel because he thinks he's a black revolutionary...

And then there's the headscarved white woman telling every body over and over that what it means to be part of their "movement" is to sit down and shut up and obey the men of color!

She's like a demotivational speaker who makes this "decolonization" junk (what an idiotic jargon term decolonization is) basically only appealing to people suffering from such an overabundance of white guilt, iditoic fetishization of some mythical wisdom that oppressed POC have, and simultaneous naivete that leads them to do whatever a POC with inflated ego and pretensions of "revolutionary" authority tells them to.

Anybody who even stands NEAR fools like this is just asking for trouble....

Is like the perfect punishment viewing after losing a bet. All 57 minutes of it.

There is no crossover from what happened in pittsburgh, but not a bad idea though.

that dude definitely got macktivist that night

"The Summer Anarchy Died" tells you everything you need to know about the Crimethinc convergence disruption in hilarious detail:

"I'm a gentrifier, I'll always be one." What kind of self-hating fucked up mindset is this?

I'm still not clear what the context of this supposed church-burning statement was.

Also WHO did said speaker want to see burning these black churches? Black anarchists? The collective radicalized former congregations?

Church's is 9/11!

Fuck George W. Church, Sr. , Hala Moddelmog, AFC Enterprises, Arcapita, and Friedman Fleischer & Lowe! Burn every last lone of their 1,660 locations in all 26 countries (where it's called "Texas Chicken"). They're animal murders and Islamic fundamentalists. Vegetarian options at Church's exist and they include coleslaw, French fries, okra, and mashed potatoes without gravy: THAT'S IT! They said that they fry their products in an all-vegetable shortening, but it is theism oil in which they fry their chicken nuggets!

Arcapita invested in Church's Chicken, which means it was approved its Sharia advisory board. The board includes a retired judge from Saudi Arabia's Supreme Court, and religious scholars from Pakistan and Bahrain. These are the people that funded September Eleventh!


This is making me hungry...where did you say the nearest one of those was?

The original may still be in San Antonio, across the street from The Alamo. Burn that too!

The Alamo is the temple of colonialist conquest and greed, its god is money and capital.

The only true anarchists are the People's Front of Judea!

The Popular Front for the Liberation of Judea!!!

It seems like for the first time all anarchistnews commenters are united. This being a sad moment for quilubolol or whatever is a happy sad moment for us. Just wanted to share this moment with you all.

Or, "I just wanted to bask in my racism with you".

don't you think that's a little unfair? it's only a couple people talking about crackers and they likely are already basking together in the social center.

Sorry, i just cant help myself sometimes.

is everybody sick of identity politicians? when the fuck did this happen? can I get my anarchy card back?

1) Qilombo--a form of dance where the dancers pummel themselves furiously about the head and neck. The first dancer taken to the ER with a concussion is named Qilombo Qing or Queen. Prizes are awarded.

2) Qilombo--an alcoholic umbrella beverage made of one shot rum, fruit juice, coconut milk and four ounces of bitters. Shake. Stir. Throw down a sink, cuz a drink like that could make ya sick.

3) Qilombo--a verb used by Homeland Security/FBI/Dallas Police Department to indicate the complete takeover of a pseudo-radical group. Ex. The SDS were so effectively Qilomboed that they actually thought that the end of racism and the VietNam war would bring the revolution.

4) Qilombo--a defunct "radical" space in the former City of Oakland (now the Oakland Commune) that has been transformed into a museum to black nationalism, anti-imperialist doggerel, the 70's, and other examples of false consciousness. Open Wednesday through Sunday 10am to 3 pm, call for special exhibits. Operated by the Kuwasi Balagoon Collective.

5) Qilombo--a noun in Akan meaning to have become civilized--an enemy of the people and a plague to the earth.Ex. Mao was a Qilombo.

You should be able to critique the actions or ideas without being a prime example of racism within anarchist circles. Sure, I have no idea if you are white or not, racist or not. But your complete disrespect for Quilombos (and I don't mean the social center) is telling.

You got it genius. Complete disrespect mixed with a moderate helping of bemusement, and bile. I have three final words for Qilombo; In pace requiescat!

more radfem-ers lol

It seems like today there is this logic that assumes if you're angry, there must be a good reason as if it's an argument in itself that can't be questioned. "Well, I'm angry, don't I look angry? It's not for no reason!" Unless the reason is that you're just crazy and have embraced one of a myriad of things to be illegitimately angry about. An emotion isn't an argument and certainly isn't an excuse for anything you do beyond an argument. Your ability to scream like a baby doesn't prove anything other than that you're a baby that needs to scream so that nobody realizes you have no cause for screaming, at least no cause related to what you claim to be screaming out.

You can pretty clearly see this logic play out with this incident:
Why was this table attacked?

"Because of he said this thing which I know is completely taken out of context to make it sound worse and I am very conscious of that and doing it on purpose, fully aware that if I say the full story, nobody will care."

Wait why? You didn't really make an argument there.

"Oh so you're a racist too?! I'm mad! *scream* Don't you want me to stop screaming? Just agree with me!"

Who wouldn't agree with that logic? Only a racist white cis-man I guess.

Additionally, there seems to be a defense of this "emotions are arguments in themselves" logic by identity politicians. If you read some of the radical feminist stuff in the past few years you'll find "critiques" of one of the reactions to their rhetoric being "appeals to logic and reason" as being in itself a bad thing because we shouldn't focus on logic but only the emotions of the "survivor." Sound like any active or historical regimes to anyone?

I think the lesson here is that too often anarchists opportunistically accept half measures that in the long run will hurt the struggle, particularly from the view of race. In this sense, anarchists often plead that something is better than nothing where others with less myopia disagree. Sometimes nothing is better than something.

The horrendous irony of this situation, assuming what I have read to be the case, is that the church is itself a tool of white supremacy regardless of what neo-colonized racialized peeps think they are using it for. For fuck sakes, Fanon wrote about this kind of stuff in the 50's and 60's and Aime Cesaire did the same.
Not only is it false to claim someone to be racist because they think all churches should be expunged from the social/material landscape, it is arguably a fundamental tenet of the white supremacist power structure to defend the maintenance of church's regardless of who happens to be occupying them.

It is logically consistent to say that when one declares that they wants all church' to be burned, for them to say 'black' church' as well. In fact, what even is this 'black' church. The church is a white owned and conceptualized power structure into which (namely poor) black people are thrown into out of desperation. It's really sad to see the outcomes of racialized peeps ending up in church and prison....and church in prison, because of a set of racist historical processes. However, by drawing an association between someone being white and stating all church' should be burned regardless of who takes sanctuary in it, aligns oneself with the white supremacist power structure, not against it.

Maybe the dudes comment was crude. However, the response sounds to be insane.

Also, listening to the video someone posted about this Quilombo meeting where this guy is attempting to wax philosophical about a distinction between 'decolonization' and anarchism and this seems to be misguided as well. Decolonization has been turned into a useless buzzword tossed around by power hungry opportunists who don't truly do shit to change the conditions which emiserate us all. "I would like to preface this speech with acknowledgment of the fact that we are on stolen land' is a famous line. However, Indigenism and anarchy are indistinguishable and all one needs to do is read Ward Churchill on these matters to figure it out. Green anarchy, in particular, is completely in line with Indigenous land defense.

SO this womyn who starts speaking almost 30 minutes in is completely confused. First she essentially says if one is white then they are irrelevant, yet they must always be humble. She says that if one is white they mustn't speak, assuming unless spoken to. She started off by stating she was a gentrifier and that she will always be one.

Now, aside from the fact that she is white as snow, one is no more a gentrifier within the context of places like Oakland as they are in the context of being on Turtle Island. Unless you cease to exist or high tail it over to Europe, opening your mouth about being a gentrifier is just an attempt to be an opportunist putting on a facade to make yourself look 'profound' to a group of clearly naive people.
This logic of black nationalism appears to distort the history of anti-colonial struggles, akin to fools like Elijah Muhammad and Louis Farrakhan, and turn it into a capital power grab for certain segments of the racialized community. So, in this sense, it isn't rejection of oppressive power structures, but rather an inversion of them. The problem is, these peeps are late to the party. Capitalism has long recuperated black and brown folk into various corporations, the police, and the military (namely to kill poorer black and brown folk). By her logic, a well off black man is to be accorded more legitimacy than a poor white boy. And for no real reason other than the latter happens to be a cracka. In this sense, being poor and having a history of being in and out of prison, beaten by CO's and cops and so on can be completely negated in favor of some persyn who is being tokenized and may not have experienced any of the aforementioned to the same degree.
There is no denying that there exists a general pervasiveness of white people (hipsters/yuppies etc) taking over hoods and displacing black folk, however they largely displace poor white folk too. Ya gotta remember, white people don't give a fuck about other white people all divides along class lines.

To recap, if you are white and telling other white people they shouldn't speak and take a back seat, then you are nullifying your own self. If you are giving a speech based on this premise, then you have contradicted your own self and are therefore irrelevant.

Clearly, decolonizers who say that people of color inherently have wisdom, virtue, or value and the rest of us should shut up and take orders are idiots and authoritarian nationalists.

But let's not start saying that they're idiots because some black people have money, so really it's the poor people, white or black or brown, who have the true wisdom, virtue or value.

I've lived much of my life amongst poor people of various races and levels of intensity of socioeconomic and political oppression. They don't have any virtue or wisdom that other people lack. Poor people, people in prison or ghettoes, aren't inherently worse than people in middle class suburbs, obviously, but they aren't inherently better either. They're just more oppressed and desperate. Its arguable whether they are more likely to take part in actions to change the current order, but it's rubbish to think they are more inherently predisposed to create something non-coercive and non-hierarchical to come after it.

Let's not get trapped in myths inherited from Marxist declaration of the industrial proletariat (rather than the peasantry or any other social group) as the revolutionary class -- which filters down to us through the Maoist declaration that the revolutionary class was actually the peasants, and 1960s/70s American radicals saying that in the U.S. the revolutionary class was actually African Americans.

Fredy Perlman dealt with how even the experience of extreme oppression does not make one a particularly powerful opponent of oppression in his 1982 essay "Anti-Semitism and the Beirut Pogrom"

And as he wrote the 1984 essay "The Continuing Appeal of Nationalism" -- a critique of the national liberation front style politics that Decolonize increasingly seems to resemble:

"I'd like to answer a question before it is asked. The question is: "Don't you think a descendant of oppressed people is better off as a supermarket manager or police chief?" My answer is another question: What concentration camp manager, national executioner or torturer is not a descendant of oppressed people?"

A year or 2 ago I'd have said the Continuing Appeal of Nationalism was great but out of date. But national liberation front politics are coming back in vogue, just like right wing nationalism in Europe is similarly coming into style. And that's a real shame.

This entire comment thread is nuts.
"You're a racist for wanting to burn all the churches."
"Since you don't want to burn all the churches, you're not really an anarchist."
"Since you're arguing over this, you're all a bunch of authoritarians."

*quietly takes my synagogue and slips away before anyone notices there are things other than churches...*

That's really all you boiled the discussion here down to? Kind of sad given this is one of the few threads in which people are making some interesting some and conflicting arguments. Hope you are siting down right now. I have some news you find disturbing. There are actually jewish anarchists who are also against judaism!

Whatever you need to tell yourself to justify this embarrassing clusterfuck of personal attacks and pseudo-philosophical navel gazing.

Anews thread makes you speechless. You don't even know many jewish anarchists are against judaism. Precious precious innocence.

This is not at all like the Crimethinc convergence being broken up and the Bash Back convergence being broken up is nothing like the Crimthinc convergence being broken up. Crimethinc was literally contributing to the gentrification of an area when they chose that space. Like crimethic is still cool in my book, but fucking come on.

no they weren't. wtf you talking bout?

They rented a conference space in a neighborhood that is undergoing gentrification and didn't engage with anyone in that community in area beforehand. Basically they became a temporary white hipster hotspot.

haha. no. clearly you were not part of that conference.

Attendants at a crimethinc convergence are NOT white hipsters. They are very far from anyone`s conception of that. A conference space was rented for like 3 or 4 days during which there were a bunch of people including a bunch of white people that generally looked like dirty raggedy people that were quite far from being "hipsters". Separate of that, any neighborhood that's able to be ruined by some people of ANY politics simply being present in a building in the neighborhood for a few days is quite astounding. I don't think that open neo-nazis keeping to themselves in a building for a few days would have any affect on the neighborhood and similarly think the same about this temporary small anarchist gathering that if anything was very shy about interacting with normal people in general, rather than trying to recruit them for anarchy, as if that would be a bad thing. There were several workshops and tours around the neighborhood with the topic of gentrification and I really fail to see how a group of people that if anything are much more rabidly against gentrification than the average person of any race being in one building for a few days contributes to gentrification at all. The location was partically chosen because it was basically right across the street from a more permanent (although now non-existent) anarchist space (The GPAC space). It's amazing that if there was an anarchist space drawing white people to it in the neighborhood, the attacker chose the temporary space made up of people that would all be gone anyway in a number of days rather than the permanent space right across the street. Must have had something to do with the attackers not being from Pittsburgh at all and not participating in the convergence at all and only traveling from afar for the purpose of attacking it. This isn't to say there was anything wrong with the GPAC space by the way, it was run by great people that were active against gentrification and their presence in the neighborhood near actual gentrifying things like art galleries and fake community organizations was ONLY a good thing, certainly not a bad thing from the perspective of gentrification being bad.

Additionally, everything you need to know about this disruption is contained in the article "The Summer Anarchy Died" in the link below. Nothing more needs to be said about the subject, that article pretty well puts in the nails in the coffin of these perspectives.

nice try gentrifier. i bet area a lot purer with crimethinc and gpac gone.

Do people not get the difference between POC autonomy and nationalism? If someone calls you out for contributing to gentrification or advocating attacks that encompasses radical keystones in certain communities of color they're not being a nationalist, they're being real. Like critiquing individual churches or critiquing authoritarian religion is one thing, but if you advocate burning down things that are considered radical keystones in communities of color you should be surprised if people treat you like a racist.

tots. i was just trying to explain this to some "anarchist" who was saying they was against obama. it's ok to be against the concept of the president but when you say you are against the first black president how are you not surprised people know you are racist. are people not aware of the history of racism in this country and how important his election was to poc?

nice try troll
but that's not even the same thing

you have no idea how radical some black "Christians" are, like fuck god, and most churches are fucked up, but forreal I mean saying burn all churches is not as bad as burning a black church and only doing that, but if we're trying to manifest anarchy it's going to look different for different people people go to the church for the same reason they go to bars and I don't remember anyone thinking it was a good idea to burn down gay bars or traditionally black bars.

theres also a lot of "radical" white christians...not sure what your point is? and i don't think bars are anything similar to churches. you are grasping at straws

So calling someone out for racism if you don't like the implications of something they said means waiting until there's a big public event that people come all over the country to attend, then publicly destroying their literature and threatening to physically assault them and their friends and family members with a group of a dozen people? That's JUST TOTAL ASSHOLE behavior AT BEST...

Maybe the problem is dignifying them with accusations of nationalist, identity politics practicioners, etc. These people are JUST TOTAL JERKS.

I FUCKING HATE WHEN people use a critique of identity politics and a critique of nationalism as apologisms for their racism.

I know like identity politics can be detrimental as fuck and nationalism is bullshit, but there's a difference between establishing a ruling order and wanting to have a little self-determination and confronting racism.

White people need to be silent otherwise poc can't have self-determination. To confront racism we need to confront people who have answers that could hurt someone somwewhere. So that this triggering racist incident with the church answer is never repeated I propose every white person answering a question adds a disclaimer that the expressed view does not apply to any part of the institution that black people own, work, or otherwise participate in.

The fact that all the responses here are like superhuge STRAWPEOPLE really makes me wonder.

I white person suggesting to burn down black churches is similar to a white person saying burning down cheap community run grocery stores in black neighborhoods. It's fucked up.

ya. lawrence has workshop on how-to burn down only black churches attended by poorest peoples babies and white people don't care?

well hey there straw-person, how's the weather in the middle of that cornfield

not all black people who go to church are poor and disillusioned

Can't tell if the @'s here are really racist assholes of if it's hired trolls doin some COIN stuff...

people may not have all had privilage to go to catalyst project training to learn that cracker is a racist term. so might be coin or maybe just ignornace.

Have no fear, there will be no "coin" things happening from a "racist" or "white" perspective, only from an "anti-racist" perspective. Similarly, there will be "coin" things happening from a "male supremicist" perspective, only from a "feminist" perspective. Which isn't to say any of those things are inherently anything but the government is going to use and does use whatever politics it needs to to gain credibility and create divisions.

idk the ending of invisible man was pretty cool
but I do think it's kinda racist for a cracker to suggest burning black churches

And people fall for it every time. Who needs Cointelpro when everybody is more focused on drama than actually getting anything done? Why? Because self proclaimed anarchists aren't doing shit in the US besides marking up a lot of tree corpses and pretending there's enough of them to riot on May Day. The real struggle involves actually working with all kinds of people that have all sorts of opinions. That's not going to pass the Official Anarchy Purity Test. Might as well have a good dramafest.

But we can't start working with people until the trauma ends. There is no Revolution. The revolution is making every event a safe words space. How can I organize with a man who wants to burn poor poc babies alive?

lolololol you are a shit fucker.

I think theirs a difference in critiquing churches and being honest about it and saying black churches should be burned. Like I think work is shit and worker struggles are pointless, but I wouldn't suggest we burn down places where undocumented workers are trying to organize their labor struggle.

If someone says we need to burn the factories and someone is like "What about undocumented people, they needs joooobbbss!" then what the proper response to an obviously provocative little shit like this? One good response is to give them exactly what the want to hear, although they often don't like that, or pretend that isn't what they wanted to hear.

Even Obama, even black churches, even small business owners, even POC cops, even women cops, etc. The list goes on it's all the same shit. NOBODY AT ALL ever off the cuff just said "I think we should burn black churches." Obviously that has a racist connotation to it, but that's not what happened at all. Lawrence shouldn't be the one punished but rather the person who asked him the question. Maybe instead of giving them the response they wanted they shouldn've just be beaten down, which given all this context they certainly deserve, they'd certainly think twice about saying something so obviously stupid again. People are too used to saying shitty leading questions to intentionally subvert people and are also too used to being able to just immediately say what they're thinking without giving it any consideration. If they were met with more criticism for acting like that then it might balance out but if you insert that kind of behavior into a hippy-dippy permissive white-guilt ridden area like the Bay Area, disaster.

Can't we all just get along?

So like I'd don't just shut down people for making non-WHITE POWER type racist comments, but talk to them about it, but if someone did flip out on them I wouldn't try and stop them. That's what I'm feeling here.

Which is fucked up. You don't shut them down so you force other people of color to address the racism. Nice privilage to sit back like that.

I didn't understand what you meant? I think if a person of color wants to confront a racist they should be allowed even if it means getting rowdier than I would. Saying racist shit is violent. There are instances where I've stopped a person of color from beating the shit out of someone, but this is different. I really want to have convo about this though, so yeah.

If any person of color says something is racist IT IS RACIST. End of story. You need to check yourself if you aren't willing to help beat the racist down.

i thought this was sarcasm but then i thought "maybe this a real thing that a person actually thinks." i can't tell which it is, and that is depressing.

Why is it so hard for you to accept that POC know racism when they hear it? Is it really supporting the survivor if they have to explain why something is racist? Complicatation is when two POC show up and don't agree. The best solution is to wait for one of them to convince the other one or one to leave. Then you will know what the correct answer is.

Yes but people are manipulative so fuuck good faith on this. Those that took advantage of Lawrence's response to get him removed are the fucked up ones. The crowd not understanding the context of Lawrence's response are also to blame. Anyone that just sat and not impose themselves allowed the situation to unfold without challenge. This is unacceptable. Typically when people get rowdy they are the one's removed but based on new left concepts of justice, those instigating a conflict have more correctness than the ones they aggress on if they are are from an oppressed identity. This logic is a failure and needs to be abandoned.

The Qilombo group is fond of the Black Riders Liberation Party. It's all very embarrassing.

It's worse than that, the space was taken over and is basically run by Islamists and the Black Riders Liberation Party.

What either of these things has to do with anarchism? Nothing, absolutely nothing. There used to be an anarchist space there, now it's been stolen and all the guilty shy white anarchists allowed it to happen because they think all POC everywhere from anymore own everything, including something you're using, and they want to blatantly take it away from you and push an openly anti-anarchist agenda, you're a racist if you try to stop them. That's what happened. There is no other truth, that is the truth of what happened no matter how uncomfortable it seems.

Try telling an anarchist from the Middle East that mosques are okay and shouldn't be confronted and they will tell you you're a moron. Try telling a genuine anri-religious POC anarchist (or just an anarchist, since they're all supposed to be anti-religious) what they think about a white person saying that all churches should be burned and they'll be like " what?" I know this apparently isn't the case in the Bay Area but it seems like a lot of people have only white anarchist friends and the POC people they interact with are only Maoists so they make the false and racist assumption actually that this is what all radical POC think. If your politics are wrong, they're wrong. It doesn't matter what your stupid color is. And taking a person's race into consideration when deciding whether totally unacceptable politics are wrong or not is racism.

You're embarrassing

You lost all credibility at the use of "Islamists".

Wrong. They said this which is smarter than a lot of what has been said here and certainly smarter than the Quilombo folks. "If your politics are wrong, they're wrong. It doesn't matter what your stupid color is. And taking a person's race into consideration when deciding whether totally unacceptable politics are wrong or not is racism."

Hopefully all of this bigoted anti ident pol stuff and all the shitty ident pol fetishization of oppressed peoples cancels eachother out and we can all move on.

Nationalist POC v.s. 70s Radical Feminist Women. Who will win? Whoever wins, everyone loses, especially the groups they claim to be fighting for.

And don't think there aren't contradictions. There are serious contradictions between these two groups. You can only be crazy about one identity group at a time, this is what history has taught us. You can't be crazy about multiple of them at once or else there's too much contradiction and it doesn't work. But god-willing these destructive tendencies won't interact much and continue to be separate enough that they won't destroy each other and we can enjoy the terrible effects of both of them for years to come!

Nobody has ever provided any larger context to where, when, why the quotes attributed to Lawrence Jarach about burning churches were made. Lacking this context, to declare yourself in favor of this attack against the 3 children and 1 adult at the Bookfair which was excused in relations to this alleged statement DEFINITELY means you are behaving like an asshole, and no amount of finger wagging and calling people racists can obscure that fact.

Maybe a real dialogue around the real incident where these statements were made (if it actually happened) could prove helpful to those involved. But this bullshit @news dialogue ain't that.

Also if destroying people's literature and physically threatening them in a public space over decontextualized statements attributed to them is what calling someone out for racism means, than clearly calling people out on racism is purely a nasty thing that assholes do. So cut that shit out please, or else find a way to do it that isn't so incredibly fucked up. Just because you, or people you are related to, or people who look like you, or people who you identify with, experienced oppression at some point, doesn't mean you get a free pass to be an asshole to other people now.

This incident helped set an ugly precedent, but it's only one in a line of similar events in recent years at anarchist events. Together they highlight a key challenge going forward: if such events need to happen, they should be able to happen free from conflicts that involve physical assaults, threats of physical assaults, and/or destroying others' literature. If anarchists can't do that, then it's laughable to think that they'll ever play an active part of creating a social order without coercion or hierarchy.

Don't like it when "traditional" anarchist tactics are used to do a very anarchist thing when faced by oppressive fuck... i.e. DISRUPT and SMASH!! Come on now, why can't you just "get over it"?

This is just totally incomprehensible jibberish...isn't it? Is this robot-generated?

I [practice WHITE MAGICK not BLACK MAGICK. does that make me a RACIST? according to some maoist meathead out there i'm sure it does.

Lawrence claims to be against magic. I bet his racist cracker ass is also against black magic

Wouldn't surprise me, the guy is afterall a fucking racist. I'm happy he got taken care of.

^ onslaught of meatballs

cool neo-bunker rhetoric there, princess crackers

He fucking taken care of. On to smaller racist crackers. Notice a whole lot of crackers who think it is ok to talk before POC. Did you see those other presenters who got asked questions by POC and thought it was ok to answer without asking what the POC thought instead?

These comments are funny. I'm sure as a white person I'm supposed to get all offended. But they'd never been anything like fascism or the Nazis by blacks or Latinos or if there was, they were doing it to other blacks and Latinos, do I fall to see how any of the "reverse racism" is supposed to offend anyone. It sounds like some good old fronted cracker ribbing. As to the straight racist comments, fuck y'all bitches!! Har, har, har, I'm a white guy, har har.

holy hell are you ignorant of the history of empires.

Ask and ye shall receive :/

As a regular attendee of the SF anarchist bookfair, I sincerely hope that the organizers of the bookfair would not allow any kind of physical violence and destruction of another person's books. Why weren't the people who poured water over the books asked to leave?! Why did Lawrence leave? It seems that the situation was definitely not appropriately handled by anyone involved. As they say in kindergarten, "Use your words." There's no excuse for bullying. I bet the 6 year old could've dealt with the situation better.

I`m aware of one incident years ago that involved a representative of Modesto Anarcho pouring water on a communist table that didn`t belong at an anarchist event. This was condemned by many people that there was an embarrassing statement on the internet about it signed by many embarrassing people condemning it. There is no such activity against something like this, which is much more offensive than an anarchist attacking authoritarian communists who wanted to push their shit at an anarchist event.

Apparently BANA never left, they took over our scene and then splintered into factions shouting at one another. We live in the ruins.

Didn't the BANA guy get booted from klanarchy for burning a Quran?

Going in front of a mostly white crowd, in a historically black neighborhood, and telling them to burn the black institutions, especially when one doesn't know the 'real-politik' of who's who and what's what in that particular community, is PIG WORK!

How does that help those in that community, from that community, move forward (even against the institutions that objectively DO need to be burned)? IT DOESN'T!

Speak WISELY only on what you know and can prove, or SHUT UP!

Or, as you experienced, others will shut you up! Lol.


REAL TALK? Oh really, you want REAL TALK?
If you want the REAL truth that isn't held back at all, here it is:

Contrary to what the people at your horrible space profess, Islam fucking sucks and it's not liberating at all and the fact that it is used as the official state religion to oppress people, especially women, in multiple countries in the Middle East right now is offensive and definitely has fucking nothing to do with anarchism at all. You all getting into Islam because of its anti-imperialist associations is absurd, especially since you can fight against U.S. imperialism without being a Muslim or Islamist which many people do in those contexts and those are the people who should be drawing more inspiration from if from anybody. The people that DON'T fall into the trap of clinging onto some even more authoritarian version of a religion to bolster what they're doing. You think the combatants in the Spanish Civil War were praying to God before each battle? If they were, they certainly didn't say it, because it's embarrassing and that's what you should feel: embarrassment.

Everyone who at the march everyone was arrested at who chanted "Allah Akbar". Everyone who helped carry an ACAB banner with the crescent and star on it. Everyone who apologized for not getting out of the Holdout quick enough. Everyone who gave constant apologies for and excuses for the objectively authoritarian and objectively anti-anarchist behavior of these people. That's right, all of you associated with all of this should feel very embarrassed. You are an embarrassment to anarchism and you should feel ashamed of yourselves and admit that you were totally wrong and ask for forgiveness from the people you indirectly harmed by participating in this bullshit. Hoodies and hijabs? Really? Real talk: a bunch of women marching in France to protect their "religious freedom" isn't anarchism, it's very far from it, it has no relevance to us because we're already against religion, so what the hell do we care about people asserting their religious freedom? Seriously, real talk, chanting "Allah Akbar" at a demo? Seriously? And don't jump on me about the spelling, it isn't even meant to be written in English anyway. But sorry I just have to bring it up again. Anyone who identifies as an anarchist who participated in chanting that in public should be very ashamed of themselves. No anarchist in the Middle East would think you were cool, they would think you're an idiot for associating their culture only with religion and thinking that struggle, especially anarchist struggle needed that religious connection to be relevant to them. You know what else is important to Islamists? THE STATE. Maybe we should go softer on that too and embrace the state. You know, only the GOOD states. And now for the obligatory disclaimers, yes fuck Christianity too and fuck Judaism, and fuck every religion that people want to push. I don't necessarily have a problem with some anarchist quietly believing in some of these things, but they need to understand that anarchism historically is not supportive of any religion so if they want to quietly practice it embarrassed and not make a big thing about it, that's fine. The moment you make a big deal about it or try to connect it to anarchism is the moment you're going to face harsh criticism, from me at least.

Also real talk, fucking respect your elders. This man you attacked was an anarchist when you were pooping in your diapers and you think you know better than him? Was it before or after you pooped in your diapers that you knew better than him about anarchism, just wondering? I don't think Anarchy Magazine is that great but it was at one point and I'd never imagine doing what you did even if I had serious disagreements with him.

THAT'S the real talk, much too real for you.

Seriously, on all counts. I had a feeling that these were the same idiots marching behind a crecent and shouting Allah Akbar. For fucks sake. Do whatever the hell you want, but don't think that it's compatible with anarchism and that somehow anarchists should be making space for your fucked up beliefs at their events. I'm sure there's some MLM group in the Bay Area who would be more than willing to accomodate your flawed analysis and antagonism towards anarchists. If you wanted to get away with this kind of bullshit, you should have gone after lower hanging fruit. LJ is well respected and for a reason, his politics are more consistent than yours could ever hope to be. You could admit that you were wrong and apologize, but I'm pretty doubtful that will happen. It would weaken your claims of victimization. So hopefully instead this will be the nail in the coffin of your terrible politics and you will no longer be invited to peddle your confused synthesis of identity politics, nationalism, and anti-capitalism.

I honestly don't think a bunch of kids are stupid enough to come up with the idea to attack Lawrence on their own. I really believe they are being manipulated either by cops or some commie sociopaths. The whole thing, with someone actually leading Lawrence to make that statement just seems fishy as hell.

I just don't believe group think could lead to such a stupid fucking decision.

I bet it is about consolidating power and loyalty within thier small scene. DGR does this same shit all the time. Do/say something ridiculous in order to provoke a backlash. Defend yourself as the only true revolutionaries will to confront the issue. Use backlash to play the victim and further isolate your supporters from everyone else. I think they are fishing for fanatical support.

Straight diss. These dumb little shit stains being led around by pigs and self obsessed sociopaths should be embarrassed.

And yeah, never a big fan of Anarchy Mag but I couldn't agree more. All the respect in the world for Lawrence and the billion times more important shit he has done as opposed to any of these fucking losers at columbo or whatever

This is the pig's work.


Cool. More politicians and community "leaders" in training showed up. Hopefully book-fair organizers get next years event the fuck out of Oakland. Listening to these sniveling assholes lecture on the need to water down anarchy to appeal to the masses is really annoying.

one liner

Todos los religiosos y comunistas y marxistas deben respetar los espacios anarquistas y aceptar que las diferencias son claras inmóvibles e totalmente sin ambigüedad.

It's not about church it's about white supremacy???

Read some Bartolome de las casas to get a more thorough understanding of the inextricably linkage between white supremacy and the church. The church, to be explicit that which is christian and catholic, is a fundamental tenet of institutionalized white supremacy. It has been and is a form of containment of racialized beings by white folk from centuries ago. It is and was also a way for certain white folk to colonize other white folk prior to this (let us visit Ireland to understand this further).
Clearly anarchists ought to reject religion and the church; this shouldn't require much thought. However it extends beyond this mileau. It is that the church is a symbolic representation of centuries of colonial subjugation and slavery. It is, to this day, dominated by images of the white patriarch and 'his' superiority over the other. It is a fundamental pacifier of struggle which is used as a battering ram by state power against the colonized detractor. This nonsense of distinguishing between the church and white supremacy hasn't even been nuanced enough to explicate much more profound arguments in favour of its use put forth by latin american liberation theologists, such as Oscar Romero, and even then would not be sufficient to separate it from the white supremacist power structure racialized people and poor white folk should see themselves as collectively striving against.

One must visit the ruins of places such as El Salvador to understand how the white supremacist relgious power structure has left the majority starving and dying while fulfilling the double role of pacifying resistance to its very manifestation. Only in places of 'privilege' can one differentiate themselves in such a manner as to put forth the church as a site of removal from white supremacy.

Es una batalla sobre poder. Tenemos aqui un ejemplo de oportunistas que quieren explotar la verguenza liberal de algunas gringos para juntar su nacionalismo y religion con algunas piezas del pensamiento anarquista.

Es claro que esto no es posible.

I love how the folks at quolumblol seemingly all got a hold of each other tonight and directed a couple people to post on these comments. I mean fuck, if it isn't obvious or anything. Yeah bro, you got hundreds of anarchists making fun of your "action." PRO-TIP tho, when you come late to the party that is making fun of you, why not at least own up to the fact that Lawrence was ASKED about black churches. Coming on here and trying to peddle bullshit after that fact has already been established makes you seem like even greater fuckwads.

Here's the really simple fact: You all look like a bunch of fucking idiots. Your middle class guilt has allowed people to take advantage of you. There is nothing you can do to not look stupid. Consider apologizing and moving back in with your parents for awhile. But please, don't bother actual anarchists trying to get shit done.

And what shit is that exactly? A lot of big talk in support of a man who's only experience with struggle has been in deciding which Porsche to buy during his mid-life crisis.

Hey, guess what, while you were reading critical theory you might have missed one real obvious point:

Struggle does not somehow equal ultimate knowledge you dumb fuck. LOL. What kind of racist white bread suburban confusion is that? Just cause someone has a rough life they now know the true way. You are truly a dumb mother fucker you know that?

Oh, white people. *sigh* *groan*

Crazy white people! What would non white cops do if there weren't white anarchists amirite?

For the sake of comparison -

Qilombo calendar:

Lawrence calendar:
"being an actual anarchist trying to get shit done."

Did you just compare a community calendar to the 20/30+ years Lawrence has been publishing original anarchist material plus everything else. I am talking about YOU, what have you done. I am calling YOU the shitstain, not the liberal events on your community calendar. The fact is you probably don't even know who the guy you confronted was because you are in fact not a fucking anarchist.

"We say we want the end of all chains and the extermination of all oppression. Yet, in the Anarchist “movement”, black folk and other folks of color are still in the senzala. We are still having to disguise ourselves, call whitey “Massa” and chain ourselves to the wall. No, don't talk about racism unless is in that very abstract sense of “we-are-all-equal-let's-sing-kumbayas-and-pretend-the-color-of-our-skin-does-not-matter” racism. While there might be nobody yelling “die, nigger, die!*”, you can hear a very clear “shut the fuck up, nigger, just shut the fuck up.”

We pretend that racism is just a minor problem, something that, like the Leninist State, will wither away if we will it to. The intrinsic racist characteristics that infect Anarchism, specially North-American Anarchism, cannot be questioned without one being seen as some kind of authoritarian nationalist, or even worse, a Maoist. Red-baiting, of all things!

Like in the real senzala, our resistance to racism needs to be covert. It needs to be hidden and made like it is something else. It cannot be what it needs to be, it cannot do what needs to be done, or the senzala would break apart and the master's house would be set aflame. No. Like capoeira, our fight against white supremacy inside North American anarchism needs to disguise itself as a dance in order to become a martial art.

And you know how the rap goes: if we talk about empowerment we are power hungry. If we assert our self-determination, we are authoritarian nationalists. When we expose how white Anarchism is, elitist white Anarchists generally come with excuses like “Hey, I saw a black anarchist once!” or the classic, “well, we need to outreach to communities of color.”

Let me tell you something, the reason why the masses are not flooding to your Anarchism is exactly that one – it is your Anarchism. It is a white, petty-bourgeois Anarchism that cannot relate to the people. As a Black person, I am not interested in your Anarchism. I am not interested in individualistic, self-serving, selfish liberation for you and your white friends. What I care about is the liberation of my people. The collective liberation of the children of the African Diaspora, those that have been beaten down and treated worse than dogs all across the world.

So, no, we are not interested in your anarchism. We need to create our own. Understand this, if the whites in Palmares were allies and died with the blacks and the natives it is not because they invited the blacks and the natives into their structure, into their society and said unto them: “We are all equal.” It was because the blacks and the natives created their own structure - their own society - in which power relations were different so that whites could not longer by the sheer force of their privilege impose their view of how the society should be run. To try and integrate people of color in your society or your movement, like there would be no culture clash and no confrontation – it is naive, senseless and can lead nowhere but into deception."

And while there are white Anarchists out there who remember that only the oppressed can liberate themselves and the end of white supremacy cannot be brought about by white people – there are those that, in their arrogance and shortsightedness, will not yield and cannot tolerate the thought that maybe there is something that Anarchist people of color need to discuss that does not include white people.

And if, for a moment, I thought that APOC needed to be approved by the white anarchist scene that would be the moment in which APOC would lose its appeal to me. Because is not about being accepted, being cherished, being “on the good side” with the white Anarchists – that is the Senzala."

Disgraceful to the revolutionaries named to use that writing as justification for this piss action.

You are not acting in the tradition of Balagoon and he would never do what you did. Furthermore if you read his book you`d know the scene he came from which was primarily the black nationalist scene, was very "fucked up" toward him. He had a queer lover who was very dear to him and when he died, his lover wasn't allowed by his "comrades" to attend his funeral because the relationship was "controversial". That was many years ago but pretty sure if he or anyone of his generation were going to do some infighthing it would be with people making decisions like that, certainly not with anarchists at the time.

All this smacks of kids not being able to critically think for themselves. Balagoon, and other revolutionaries like him actually had their *own* ideas. I don't see these people doing anything other than parroting other people. Other people who are not anarchists btw.

These comments are the perfect example as to why we are all doomed. You kids just cannot grow up. Just a bunch of fucking rejects all clambering to be seen as "the most radical radical". I have lost all faith in "the anarchist movement" because of people like you. Just die in flames. You don't give a flying fuck about actual liberation for actually existing people. It's just a big fucking game of oppression olympics.

One of the best anarchists I've ever known died in flames, saving his friends. Can we pick a new phrase?

Lawrence is the new Keating.

Lawrence is a maoist

his butt hole is a maoist

Sounds like bay area is a hotbed for overly righteous liberals, or is it just ME ME ME?

With the overabundance of white and male guilt, you can make anyone guilty enough to accept your garbage in the Bay!

I have closed the comments on this story (which makes sense at about 300 due to software limitations) as nothing new (other than bad faith accusations) appear to be being made. To continue the comment storm someone should write an article/essay in the 300-1000 word range that substantively adds to this conversation.

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