Veg*n Antagonist Lierre Keith Pied in the Face at 2010 SF Anarchist Bookfair (Indybay)

  • Posted on: 14 March 2010
  • By: worker

<table><tr><td>From <a href="http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2010/03/14/18640886.php?show_comments=1...

Bound Together Books and PM Press continue to try to prop up and foist veg*n antagonist Lierre Keith onto the radical community in the Bay Area. Today, at the 15th Annual San Francisco Anarchist Bookfair, where she was scheduled to be a featured speaker, Keith was served her just deserts for her obnoxious attacks on veg*ns in The Vegetarian Myth. She was pied in the middle of her speech in the main auditorium at the SF County Fair Building in Golden Gate Park.

The myriad logical fallacies and other personal, logical, and factual problems with Lierre Keith's misanthropic book need not be reiterated here. A thorough debunking of her attack on veg*ns was posted on Indybay last June when Bound Together Books first invited her to speak about her book.</td><td><img title="We can't be bothered to explain to you why you are dumb... but you are!" src="files/pictures/2010/sfanarchistbookfair.jpg"></td></tr></table><!--break-->

If her book had been written as a good faith effort to start a discussion about the topics of vegetarianism and industrial agriculture, it certainly would not have evoked such a visceral reaction from veg*ns. But that's not how Keith addressed the subject. She instead chose to rebuke her own former vegan self by verbally assaulting all veg*ns, calling them ignorant and child-like, sometimes based on nothing more than dishonest accounts of anonymous online comment threads or her own self-loathing.

Phony environmentalist omnivores like her buddy Derrick Jensen -- who farcically claimed the "book saved my life” -- might find the gratuitous attacks on veg*ns self-satisfying or validating, but the insults and invective directed against veg*ns have been taken, not surprisingly, quite personally by veg*ns everywhere who are aware of the book, sometimes by having had it thrown in their faces by those who mistakenly believe the book to be the last word on vegetarianism. And surely it was a reaction to these attacks that led the culprits of the pieing to feel compelled to take symbolic action against Lierre Keith at the very moment she was being held up as a paragon of radical thought by Bound Together Books at this year's Anarchist Bookfair, normally a vegetarian-friendly venue.

Some will condemn the pieing as a useless symbolic action. Others will object to the breaking of decorum at the bookfair. Many of those who might condemn the action would not think twice about praising other symbolic direct actions, pieing or otherwise. It is doubtful if her book were "the anarchist myth" or "prison activist myth" that anyone present would do anything but cheer the action.

Some will undoubtedly argue that the pieing was an attack on free speech, but Keith has been afforded more speech than most people on the planet will ever be, courtesy of PM Press. In fact, she is profiting from the soap box she has been given to pretend she is a radical environmentalist who just happens to jet around the country to and from her home in rural Massachusetts. In a world where vegans and vegetarians are a definite minority, face constant bombardment with pro-meat messages our American cattle culture, and frequently have to deal with direct attacks from government, law enforcement, and multinational corporations that profit from the sale of factory-farmed meat and dairy, Ramsey Kanaan of PM Press, himself a long-time vegan, strangely chose to pile on with yet another attack on veg*ns, this time being especially traumatic in that it comes from the inside of the supposed radical environmental movement. (Was the book printed in part to curry favor with Derrick Jensen who now publishes through PM Press?) Through the Bound Together collective, of which Ramsey Kanaan is a member, Lierre Keith has been asked to speak in the Bay Area repeatedly. The mean-spirited book and these speaking engagements are largely one-way conversations with Keith dominating the dialogue.

But today, anonymous masked peoples stood up and refused to allow PM Press and Bound Together to yet again try to cram Lierre Keith down our throats. They stood up for many who have suffered silently, without a voice, since the publication of her book. We don't want what you are serving.

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2010/03/14/18640886.php

Comments

so apparently her last words before being pied were "no one should ever eat factory farmed meat". and apparently the pie was full of tapatio which i would imagine is quite like being maced.

10 years ago you would have been beating up people at hardcore shows for smoking. now you're macing some old lady at an anarchist bookfair for saying veganism isn't the solution to all the worlds problems? seriously, go fuck yourselves. or better yet go liberate some mink, they could really use the help. way to make veganism look like it's just for self-righteous assholes.

and by the way i'm an anarchist who never buys anything that's not vegan and has been involved in solidarity/support with animal lib prisoners.

They put hot sauce in a pie? Vegans must have no taste whatsoever. Also, it looks like veganism has been promoted to the status of unquestionable up along there with the black bloc, nice job guise. Keith must have been an anarcho-liberal leninist queer assimilationist, so she deserved what she got.

last time i checked queer was on the same team as black blocks(12 feces of insurecto fascism)

LOL my captcha is GAILY THIS

let us all remember that when it seems like one anarchist is pieing another anarchist in the face at the anarchist bookfair:
IT'S PROBABLY A COP.

cops would love to pull us apart with this type of thing, especially since we are weaker than we were a few years ago.....

KEEP THIS IN MIND AS YOU READ THIS ARTICLE AND ALL THE COMMENTS.

MMOOOoooooooo,,,,mmmmmoooOOOOOOOooooo.-- contented pet cow kept by smug liberal to keep the grass down on their hobby farm.

why are you such a speciesist? why do you assume that cows and stupider than us, and therefore worthy of being invoked as an insult. you have no idea what the emotional life of a cow is like, you speciesist jackfuck!

Fuck you and all your domesticated excuses for animals, except dogs, they're cool. And chef Gordon Ramsay would fuck you over the carcass of one of your precious cows, and nail your feet to the floor and force feed you beef mince you foi degra vegan moron.

dogs are awesome.

I like turtles.

JD

I agree, they're delicious.

hahaha, awesome.

Did you not see that Keith herself filed a complaint with the cops and was responsible for bringing cops to the book fair. Get your head out of your ass.

vegans calling the cops on undercover cops...
sounds like the undercover cop did their job well, creating division and further conflict.

oops i meant "ex-vegans"....
same difference though, amirite?

pathetic. calling the pigs just like her buddy derrick jensen.

not even the revolutionary communists called the cops when they got forcefully ejected from the (A) bookfair last year. i'm glad they pied the bitch

um, well that fucking woman called the damn cops on these people.
she fucking called cops to the damn anarchist bookfair, thats just not okay.
and i eat meat, and think most of the animalists are kind of dumb, but im with them against anyone calling cops.

No shit callin cops iz fukkked i heard a guy got stabbed at the last bookfair and he tried to call the cops but luckly someone wrestled his phone out of his hands later the guy thanked everyone for not letting him call the cops. stay true to anarchy!

were the cops going to un-stab him?

Yay! More Tapatio pies!

I hope you get tear gassed at your next useless, pointless rally.

Sorry, I don't go to rallies. Useless, pointeless, or otherwise.

Bullshit that there was hot sauce or, what's more commonly claimed, cayenne pepper in the pie. Look at her face, in the picture above (yes, the one where's she's filing a police report after calling the cops to an anarchist book fair). This is not the face of someone who recently had cayenne pepper smeared across it.

It's also interesting that one of the book fair organizers, who invite and promote speakers, also published Keith's book. Anarchy mall all boils down to the dollars and cents.

yep, check out this blow-up of the photo taken just like 20 minutes after the pieing

if you've ever known someone pepper-sprayed by cops, and you probably do, you know this is not what their faces look like 20 minutes later

I've gotten pepper in my eyes cooking at home and my eyes and face were redder than this.

she lied about the pepper

creepy. are we sure she's not still vegan?

She is wearing a leather jacket dumbass!!

could be fake leather, dumber-ass.

plus, it was a joke about how vegans look gaunt and creepy.
retard.

I know leather, that is genuine pig skin.

"plus, it was a joke about how vegans look gaunt and creepy.
retard."

WoW, so not funny. Assumptions, stereotypes........to easy!
Thank you for proving my assumption you are a dumbass correct.

owwww! my vegan, you punched me in my vegan. blah blah......shut up.

this action fails because the pie didn't have razors in the pie. hahahaa.

I'm a proud carnivore, from shooting them, skinning them, eating them, wearing them.
I apologize and thank them for continuing my life.
I would starve if I were to throw hot sauce pies at them, to bad natural selection has yet to catch up with dumbasses; guess its just the liberal/capitalist self defense mechanism at work.

"to bad natural selection has yet to catch up with dumbasses"
obviously not, since you're still posting here. aside from the wrong use of "to" (should be "too"), you area also an idiot for apologizing to animals.

you think animals know Engrish? animals don't know no Engrish, stupid.

now apologize to yourself for being stupid. or do you not understand my Engrish?

I don't know Engrish either, have not claimed to!
Ironically your sentence of pointing out my grammatical error on the use of "to" instead of "too" does not begin with a capital letter. I am well aware that my proper usage of grammar is lacking and just don't give a fuck, but a "grammar nazi" not capitalizing properly?

"priceless". Dumb ass

P.S. How does one make vegan approved fake leather?

"P.S. How does one make vegan approved fake leather?"
by tanning your mom's hide.

wahaha.

um, yeah. duh. you sound surprised by that. not been around too long, have you?
and what is it that you think the vegan mall boils down to?

Look! i got a vegan (TM) hoodie at old navy! and a berkman bracelet (TM) at claires! I LOVE the mall - where I buy stuff THAT I LIKE!!!!!!! Let's head over to Johnny Rockets for a soyburger and soyshakes!

yaaaaaaay! WE HAVE REALIZED THE PERFECT SOCIETY!!!!!!1

vegan milkshakes ARE pretty close to heaven. :p

I was there. There was definitely cayenne pepper in the pie. She had to wash it off with milk.

I'm sure she did wash it off with milk. The cow was probably standing right there outside of the frame of the picture, and you could totally tell by the look on it's face that it wanted her to have the milk too.

Peaceful protest doesn't get the job done
So I wake up for the rally grab my soy milk and my gun
Breakfast with the family get the grub on see what's up
Then I saw my sister had milk in her cup
I jumped out of my chair and sprayed her with my mace
I yelled "vegan power" and I kicked her in the face
Dad was bugging, he started to run
But he's a meat eater so I pulled out my gun
Shot him in the back, then I shot his wife
That's how it's got to be in defense of all life.

Tommy?!

and regardless good clean fun rocks!

i like to stick my dick in Good Clean Fun. jajajajaja.

Today was a great day, a steak and potato day, didn't have to use my a-k.

I used to have a vegan girl friend
She's not vegan anymore now shes my ex-vegan-ex

Vegan edge.

ba-dum *tschhhh*

"calling them ignorant and child-like"

no comment needed.

fucking ridiculous.
fuck these guys. seriously, fuck them.
im a vegan and have been for years and keith makes a sound fucking argument. For these hardline fucks to act as if veganism is or ever was the end-all of animal liberation is absurd. If they really gave two shits about what they preach about they'd be taking down the fucking system they supposedly despise instead of pieing someone working towards the same fucking goal. Sorry to burst your bubble, but being vegan isn't changing shit. it's a lifestyle, not a revolutionary act. and if you'd ever read Jensen you'd know he's strongly against all animal exploitation as well. im really tired of this shit. do these people contend to say that indigenous populations didn't respect animals or the sanctity of nature because they ate animals as well? fuck!

(same responder)
oh, and by the way, Tapatio is horrible on skin. Try it. It sucks.
Fucking waste of good hot sauce!

CAPTCHA:
sicklen factory
(?)

so glad i don't live in cali!

These people are loosing me. Lets not discuss these things.. No lets just shut the lady up .

calis the best! fuck watever backwater shithole ur from.

i feel you on that one

Instead of the whole "red vs green" war going on with anarchists, I think it would be nice to see people be militant against the factionism deteriorating any kind of movement. Those growing and dumpstering food can provide for radical workers having a hard time. Radical workers can syndicalize the food industry to make it less depressing and deathy. Mutual aid, blah, stop your hate for people with views close to yours.

Yeah, that sounds plausible. Go back to your dream world, where there's "a little bit of beach underneath the paving stone"...

"She instead chose to rebuke her own former vegan self by verbally assaulting all veg*ns, calling them ignorant and child-like"

way to prove her wrong?!

wh*t is go*ng on?

c*pth*: DEFEAT AMBUSHES

b*t seriou*ly, this wyzimmin was pied for being anti veg*an? d*d anyb*dy st*p to think if this w1/\/\0n was a cueer pursyn of keler? j*ez,

Don't smack a white boy.

Pie a meat-eating woman.

But really, I'm having trouble seeing how this moves anything forward. Our tunnel focus on subcultural values (concerns over who's the least oppressive, who damages the environment the least, who has the longest dreadlocks, etc.) can really make us eat ourselves.

LULZ

I concur.

FUCK LIFESTYLISTS

^^^^^^^^^

this.

i agree, up arrows are the chicken dinnerz1!!!111!!!one!!!!11!!

What the fuck is a veg*n?

vegan or vegetarian. the asterisk stands in for 'a' in the first case or 'etaria' in the second.

d*ndies

dandies, or,

damned assholes who deserve to be sodomized with spiked metal candies.

same fucking difference.

fucking idiots... i hope your bullshit scene slides off into the sea.

Very Egocentric Good-for-nothing-Asshole Numbskull.

Ooh, a bacronym. Aren't you a clever one.

cleverer than a vegan

Another witty retort. :slow clap:

Another slow clap. :eye roll:

what's a "bacronym"? I've never heard of one and it's not in my dictionary.

it's a backwards acronym, DUH.

Hey, at least she wasn't "humanely" raised her entire life on some hippy's farm, and then "humanely" slaughtered, eviscerated, and portioned out to her captor's family and friends.

you're making meh hungray!

Pizza anyone?

made with our captives? HELL YES!

The rhetoric of this article reminds me ads from conservative republicans talking about democrats.

I wish there was some actual substance to this article.

That's not surprising since too many American anarchists have a grossly conservative mentality to a large extent anyways, just a different club they are a part of.

As opposed to what, a more liberal mentality? It shouldn't have to be said here, but fuck so-called conservative republicans and so-called liberal democrats. equally.

PM publishes vegan/veg cookbooks and ONE book critical of veganism. God forbid a diversity of opinions on the matter should be allowed!

Fuck militant lifestylism, don't you people have something better to be doing?

I love red meat, from critters big and small, prefferably free range. I like vegetables to, prefferably the ones my family or i have grown.
This is a lifestyle choice, others can make theirs and i'll respect that.
It seems detrimental to draw lines between potential allies.
Having said that, Tapatio sucks, Tabasco rules!

Also, has someone upgraded from sending rocks in boxes to launching attack pies?

no no no Crystal Hot Sauce is the best!

Crystal is my 2nd fav after Tabasco, but on some foods I go for the Siracha cock sauce or 4thly dragon sauce.

Fuck you...tapatio rules

word.
y chollula!

Sorry, I don't buy or like mexican oriented hotsauce from CALIFORNIA??
I prefer my Tabasco, they have a salt mine and grow their own peppers, from Avery island Louisiana. NO, I don't feel like fucking right now, you will just have to masturbate yourself.

Tabasco? clearly you're a cop/liberal/commie/evan greer fan.

BLAAAA!

OH shit you caught me, did you see me putting Tabasco on my doughnut, getting a hard on whilst standing next to Nancy Pelosi's limo and putting a sickle and hammer flag on the antenna and chanting Greer,greer,greer for prez?

This one time Evan Greer and I were jacking each other off with Tabasco as lube (its awwwwwright!) and I got some cum on his undercover cop radio. He went to lick it off, but then I smacked him upside the the head because I didn't consent to it (i don't think he's worthy to swallow my jizz) making it NOT VEGAN!!!!!!!!!! i mean.... veg*n.

I'm eating Tapatio right now, on my eggs.

Fuck The World

hahahaha.

I respect your preference for yourself, lets not draw lines in the sand over what hotsauce is the best!

FTW as well from me!

i was there and my \girlfriend helped lierre out while she was recuperating in the bathroom. it wasnt tapatio, it was cayenne pepper. fuck these firestorm vegan shitheads

should find the vegans and throw eggs + milkshakes at them

Should find the meat eaters and throw bricks and punches at them.

Should find the vegans, shoot them AND FUCKING EAT THEM.

Should find the non-vegans, burn them at the steak and use their ashes for fertilizer in our organic, non GMO, fair trade. shade grown permaculture gardens.

But in all seriousness, as a vegan i think this was bullshit. Its not like she's defending factory faming(which is fucked up, gross, and unhealthy even for people who do eat meat) and industrial agriculture. While i may not agree with her i dont really think is was appropriate to pie her at a supposedly radical event.

Burn them at the steak

:D

Burn them as substitute mock pocket steak, the mushroom stuffing can be the penises....Am I sick or what?

It doesn't surprise me to read such a misogynist and cruel authoritarian coming from a v.e.g.a.n.

"for something to eat, something else has to die."

unfortunately after her well-backed-up, if not long-winded, critique of civilization, she stops short of offering a consistent solution and instead fetishizes grass-fed beef. in an incredibly condescending tone toward vegans and vegetarians nonetheless.

yeah, shit-talking industrial agriculture isn't all that hard. but antagonistically dismissing a group of people who are as intentional with their food decisions (or worse yet, putting forward the image that most every vegan or vegetarian wears narrow-minded blinders to nothing but animal suffering and subsists on a diet of strict monocrop soy and corn) while fully embracing domestication and the idea that animals can exist solely as a resource for human consumption...

damn, there's some [grass-fed!] cows laughing their asses off tonight.

So you disagree or find her tone "condescending" and for that she deserves to be assaulted FROM BEHIND by three agile youngsters carrying out a CHEMICAL attack. What valor.

Having had my fill of authoritarian vegan moralists over the years, I was immediately sympathetic and inclined toward Lierre as soon as I heard about this silly prank. Despite my impatience with PM Press and their boss I was planning on actually buying Lierre's book just to see if the hysterical veganismists were freaking out more because she's a turncoat (worse than a snitch apparently) or because they had no way of countering her arguments.

Then I got a fuller report of the incident. The crowd booed the piers -- apparently being more interested in listening to denunciations of factory farming and agriculture. The first thing she said when she caught her breath and could manage it, she said "Someone call the cops." At an anarchist event co-sponsored by her formerly anarchist publisher. And she pressed charges.

Now I refuse to take sides on this. The vegan jerks were total jerks, but Lierre managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. I won't be reading her book now.

Epic fail for all!
=Mister Grumpy

Well, it was either call the cops, or shout "Get 'em" and hope the crowd would do something about it.

Or deal with it a million other ways.
LET'S PUNISH THESE PEOPLE ?

THE POLICE WILL DO THAT FOR YOU!

seriously, i wouldn't even call the cops on a nazi. NO ONE deserves to be locked in a cage, not even a Nazi.

I'm wagering you're a male-bodied individual. *sigh*

i'm wagering you're an individual. *sigh*

No animal deserves to be locked in a cage. Not even humans!

Many animals sure are tasty with a bit of hot sauce. Even humans!

CAPTCHA: walruses Hussein

MEAT IS MURDER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...tasty, tasty murder!

If someone was raped, nobody would question that individuals politics if they called the cops, but if someone's physically assaulted (which i'm only saying because of the tapatio in the pie), their status as anarchist is questionable?

that's not true. many anarchists don't want even rapists in jail

"Many anarchists" are really stupid. Or are "many anarchists" rapists themselves?

or perhaps "many anarchists" believe there is a better way forward than locking people up in cages. I have no sympathy for rapists and yes i'm very much aware of the statistics regarding rape. But i don't believe that anyone should be locked up like that. I think sexual predators have serious mental and emotional issues and there is a better treatment than being locked up (and likely the victim/perpetrator of sexual assaults) in prison. Treat the cause, not the symptoms.

Castration is the cure.

No it isn't. Rape isn't about sex, it's about power and domination. Castrate a rapist and set him free and he'll continue to violate and dominate, just in other ways.

The mental issues that lead to that compulsive desire to violently dominate are a legitimate reason to remove an individual from the rest of society, albeit in a vastly different environment from that which you would find in prisons.

I know that, was being a smart ass. Castration is for child molesters.

I wouldn't question an anarchists politics who called the cops for rape/sexual assault/domestic violence/stalking because there is so rarely anything of substance in place to deal with the shit even amongst radicals. I'm all for community accountability shit but that's not always possible. It takes huge amounts of energy and a very well informed community that has its shit together and there's not a lot of that around.

sounds like "many anarchists must be male". manarchists.

Well then, you can limit your stress over who is anarchist enough by knowing that there was no tapatio or cayenne in the pie. So if the pie-throwers' anarchy cred was in danger based on that single criteria, can you please restore it?

There WAS cayenne pepper in the pie. I was there. I saw it. She had to wash it out with milk. That wasn't very compassionate of these brave strapping young warriors now, was it?

MILK IS BABY COW PUSS JUICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
fffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!!!!!!!

When I spoke to one of the bookfair organizers (not a shill for AK or PM) after the prank, he was adamant that if he'd been in the room, he'd have grabbed the closest pie-vegan and taken care of it. The same way he and a few of us took care of the Maoists who set up their shit at the bookfair last year.

There are indeed a million ways of dealing with threatening and/or assaultive behavior among anarchists. The first obstacle to making a move in that direction is to slough off the bourgeois morality that infuses us with the belief that someone with so-called legitimate authority to use violence is the best way to deal with it. Using the police to resolve conflicts among/between anarchists (or just at anarchist events -- I have no way of knowing if Lierre or the jerk vegans identify as anarchists or not) should be the very last resort, never the first.

And let's be clear on this: when your friends or someone you sympathize with (a rape survivor for example) calls the cops you think it's ok, but when someone you hate or someone you think is bad news (Bob Black for example, a favorite whipping boy among anarchist moralists) does it, it's totally fucked up. Get straight with your principles and abandon your opportunistic use and support of the state and its agents. Involving the state is never a good thing for us.
=Mister Grumpy

"he was adamant that if he'd been in the room, he'd have grabbed the closest pie-vegan and taken care of it."

What do you mean by "taken care of it"

He wasn't more specific than that, but my sense is that it would have involved something physical, something more than a tongue-lashing or a scolding. Sorry if that hurts your feelings. There's a history of physical confrontations at the bookfair -- not every year, but at least three that I remember, and I've been at every one.
=Mister Grumpy

Feelings not hurt, but seems to have kind of a macho tone. That being said, I had fleeting though of "if i was there they wouldn't have gotten away so easily" (inb4 internet tough guy). I think an important thing to remember is that nothing was actually done, so who could she have turned to? They have so far not been identified as far as I know, so at this point one could ascertain that no action will be taken against them in the future, by the cops or anyone else. Calling the pigs was just an act of desperation in a really fucked up situation

The bookfair organizer I am speaking of is one of the biggest queens I know. Total sissy, not macho at all. But he wasn't talking about bitch-slapping them either. Rage is not gendered or hormoned.
=Mister Grumpy

OT, but that's pretty essentializing to say that a queen can't act macho.

the Greeks at the bookfair said they wanted everyone, even rapists, released from prison. Lierre wants pie-throwers in prison. gives you an idea of the privileged perspective she carries with her as she jets back and forth across the country, splitting her time between the coasts. poor people, those of color, and real radicals do not automatically think of police as their friends.

What really takes extraordinary amounts of "privilege" is spending your days planning how to ruin EFFECTIVE activists' lives. And then declaring yourself immune from accountability.

VEGANS: CONSIDER YOURSELVES ON NOTICE. WE WILL HUNT YOU DOWN AND DESTROY YOU.

(How's it feel, Oh face, waiting to be maced?)

Fuck you asshole.

And on the note of calling the cops on rapists, sexual predators, abusive partners. Has anyone here ever had to do that? In my experience the cops if they showed up at all, were either too late or didnt do anything. So whats the fucking point in calling the cops anyway? It's best to find a direct way to take care of it, IMMEDIATELY!

ummm... actually, yeah, i have called the cops on someone else's abusive partner. circumstances were such that no-one else was available to assist and i was not physically capable of dealing with the situation myself.

now if i'd had a heater, it'd have gone down differently, but those were blocked by consensus in my house.

so fuck y'all ideologues.

also, dumpster pepperoni pizza is delicious, so,
fuck y'all ideologues.

ha hahahaha!!!

"all in favor of no gats?"

*twinkle fingers*

classic.

a "heater"? wow.
did you learn English from 40s detective movies?
seriously.

i wondered how anarchists could date themselves more, but there we are

uh hey, wuts yoar address, just curious...

wait what?

i don't give shit about being vegan, but how is this author an "effective activist"?? by arguing against veganism?

well you know if veganism doesn't fucking matter, than arguing against it matters even fucking less.
plus she is doing something that the meat industry pays people to do usually........

what a fucktard.

Funny you should mention that. The first source in Keith's book is the "Weston A. Price Foundation." Weston Price was a dentist who had kooky ideas on phrenology and now has a lobby group that is pro-meat and dairy industries and anti-soy. I'm sure the money from this foundation has no bearing on Keith's worldview though. Right?

They are not "pro meat and dairy industries." They are pro-small farmers and we can debate small organic free range/domestication if you want but don't act as though they are some factory farm group because it is completely false.

Sooner or later vegan ideologues will have to come to grips with the fact that some people - Like Lierre and Derrick and a lot of others (including a number of my friends who are ex-vegans) have health problems that did not go away until they started eating small amounts of meat and animal fats. And its not like they were junk food vegans either. I almost never say this shit because I was a vegetarian/vegan for 16 years and am always around vegans in my political work, but damn!

As for Lierre's effectiveness, she doesn't just write critiques of veganism. She is a very motivated organizer on a variety of topics. Lay off.

As for Derrick Jensen saying the book saved his life, the dude has crohn's disease and he is often very sick. Maybe it did save his life. Question your dogmatic shit. I have one friend who ate the most balanced vegan diet she could - all whole grains and fresh veggies and everything and was just wasting away. She dipped below 90 pounds, she returned to a healthy body weight when she reincorporated meat into her diet. Everyone's body is different. I have friends who were skeletal from intestinal colitis who were able to come back to health in part because they brought meat into their diets in limited amounts. I feel healthy with animal fats. That doesn't mean that I am all of a sudden down with factory farms and what have you. A lot of people are still anti-factory farms, anti-animal testing, anti-fur etc. but eat meat. Sorry to add complexity to your simplified version of the world.

By the way, how far do you get in organizing with indigenous groups with your "meat eaters are evil" routine?

1) no one gives a fuck about being or not being vegan.
2) if no one gives a fuck, your comment sucks, this lady's book is stupid, etc...
3) i asked how exactly she is an "effective activist" because this whole thing sounds like some liberal/west coast food politics garbage that i don't give a fuck about...
4) you replied: "As for Lierre's effectiveness, she doesn't just write critiques of veganism. She is a very motivated organizer on a variety of topics. Lay off."
5) WTF? fuck you. this is the worst response i have ever read.
6) choke on a chicken bone or a carrot stick, i don't care. just fucking CHOKE.

"just fucking choke" Once again, we witness the mature, compassionate v.e.g.a.n. response.

Very
Egotistic
Grandiose
Asshole
Nut

Vhat,
Either
Girls
Are
Nouns
and i am a boy so therefore, i am not a VEGAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Weston Price is listed at quackwatch: http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/holisticdent.html

not exactly a vegan advocacy site

quackwatch, is that some kind of Duck Liberation organization?

Considering that your name is mister grumpy I'm going to assume you are male- bodied and therefore your relationship to rape is entirely different than a female-bodied person; I'm not saying male-bodied people aren't raped, just that the numbers of males that have been raped are far lower than that of females, and the majority of rapists are male.

Therefore, you have no right to stake claims on whether or not it's ok for a rape survivor to call the cops. Rape in my opinion is the intrusive violation that is humanly possible, and NO ONE has the right to tell someone who has been raped whether or not it's OK to call the cops- anarchist or not. I'm not suggesting calling the police as a form of protection for the survivor, but rather I think that if anyone deserves to be in a cage it's a rapist. I don't care if they're fucked up from being raised in a misogynist patriarchal society; plenty of people work through that shit and don't end up being rapists.

FUCK RAPISTS, AND FUCK ANARCHISTS WHO THINK THEY KNOW WHAT'S BEST FOR RAPE SURVIVORS.

Right-on response. These people would rather the rape victims were in cages.

yeah, put them in cages!

So what if the fair organizers called the cops on her behalf. No one was doing anything to help her. If your a victim of a CRIMINAL ASSAULT, what the fuck else are you supposed to do? Obviously the fair couldn't guarantee her security. And I don't remember anyone reacting.

it's funny, but i could have sworn that this was ANARCHISTnews.org, not FOXNEWS.com

But since there's all this talk about how great the police are and how much the law matters, i guess i must be confused.

I wonder how many people had to give the cops ID. At the anarchist book fair. Where there's a whole bunch of anarchists.

I wonder how many are now on a list because of this.

Fuck the police and fuck anyone that defends them. And here's a super "FUCK YOU" to anyone that would call the cops to a fucking anarchist book fair. I really hope no one ever talks to you fucks again.

yeah man fuck the state

(thrifted candle knocks over, raging inferno ensues)

oh god call the fire department

GOD DAMMIT NO I AM AN IDEOLOGUE

(dies in a fire)

Police != fire department. I am in favor of having a fire department in an anarchist society, but not in favor of having a police force.

Also, i put my candles in glass holders so that if they fall over they don't start a fire. I don't know what you're doing.

Volunteer fire department = ok.

Municipal paid fire department = SOCIALISM AW HELL NO. BETTER PEE ON IT.

The cop didn't come inside, and didn't even step up off the street, onto the curb. The only names they have (unfortunately) are those of Lierre and maybe a couple of witnesses who gave them voluntarily and of their own volition. No one was "id-ed". The criminal perpetrators got away.

wow sounds just like Greece. You guys fought him off by cooperating with him. cool.

So what if the fair organizers called the cops on her behalf. No one was doing anything to help her. If your a victim of a CRIMINAL ASSAULT, what the fuck else are you supposed to do? Obviously the fair couldn't guarantee her security. And I don't remember anyone reacting. Your loss if you don't read her book.

Oh horror of horrors, she was humiliated in the tradition of being pied. Pieing is on some dumb shit, calling it assault is fucking sensationalizing the ridiculous.

If they were specifically putting chilis in to make the experience painful, it's assault. If they'd maced her, would you be trivializing it?

So this shit is dumb in about a thousand different ways. Veganism as a politic basically puts forth the idea that if we dislike a certain aspect of capital we should refrain from participating it, and that if enough people do this, then that aspect of capital will be reformed into something less horrifying. You cannot run from life under capital. You cannot insulate yourself (or if you can, it's because of your class status). Further it's another example of that liberal identity building that has plagued anarchism oh these many years. It's our fault that we eat meat because it's cheaper than field roast, it's our fault if we bought a pizza with cheese on it because it we didn't have time to hunt down some vegan shit, and it's somehow in our power within our roles as consumers to change all this towards establishing a greener, nicer capitalism that appreciates animals. Shit is whack. Plus they turned the pie into an attack that actually hurts, if the cayenne rumor is true. If that's what you wanted to do why didn't you just deck her or something? Leave the pies alone.

Keith also presents somewhat of a strange argument. While I'd agree that veganism is pretty silly, what's mostly interesting here is that she comes at it from this obscure primitivist perspective, rather than from something... well, interesting. Like f'real though, how're you gonna approach someone and be like "yo that salad you're eating came from agriculture, and because of that you're destroying the planet!" ? We can also see the liberal identity-based falacy or whatever here. Plus her first response is to call the cops?

In the end: fuck both of these sides, politically. Like I don't understand why they're on the map. Really? Is this the big conflict that's happening at the bookfair this year? Fucking comrades from the most vibrant struggle in the world were here, and this is what people are talking about. Shit is whack.

individuals making moral choices, bro.
consumer politics.
vote with your dollars.

Can I vote with food stamps?

Of all the people that deserve a pie in the face, I find her to be pretty low on the list. Sort of a waste of a pie. And the time it took for someone to plan it. I don't condemn the person/people who were responsible for the pie-ing, but, I certainly don't see the necessity in it either. And I think its just sort of a dick move, really. Go pie a cop, not some old wing nut babbling about her book. Sheesh. I didn't see the pie-ing of course. I was outside admiring some beautiful Greek riot paintings.

go pie Glenn Beck. On live TV. Pretend to be a "Race realist" and you'll get on the show for sure!

you want a factual rebuttal of the myths in the veg myth?

welp, here you go: http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2010/03/15/18641159.php

this is for everyone dazzled blind by Lierre's numbers without being able to read between the lines

I've been reading comments like this a lot. They always point you in another direction for "the facts" but never bother to even mention one teeny point of Keith's book that they would like to "debunk". I find this interesting. It makes me think that not only have they not read the book, they haven't even bothered to read the arguments against it. Interesting.

i have the facts, they are here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksz_Mrfy538

don't be fooled!

First of all I am a vegetarian because factory farming is massively damaging ecologically and makes the lives of the animals a living hell and is unhealthy. I'm not a vegan because I like ice cream and to me morals are less important than following my desires.

However the most sustainable and one of the healthiest diets ever is hunting and gathering. The amount of industrialized agriculture needed to sustain a universal vegan diet would still be unacceptable in my opinion. Not to mention that vegan diets require the same exploitation of labour that omnivorous diets do.

In conclusion, if you really want to be healthy and help the planet grow your own food. Also, don't be moralistic dicks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXDmN-0q-Ho

Whoever pied some lady just for writing a book that disagrees with you: FUCK YOU.
This is anarchy, no totalitarianism, and we are allowed to think and say whatever the fuck we want. Period.

That said, it's lame that she called the cops.

Yeah, totally. The marketplace of ideas is sacred. Everybody has equal say, regardless of how they spout misinformation, chronically lie, and forbid critical questioning.

Also, you're right, pieing is the pentacle of totalitarianism.

pentacle = pentagram + pinnacle ???
= AWESOME

Anarchy is not everyone agreeing and getting along, it is free association, it is free speech, it is total disagreement and debate on a society-wide level. That is the entire point, and that applies to incorrect, unpopular and loathsome viewpoints as well.

I did not say that pieing is "the [pinnacle] of totalitarianism," I merely pointed out the obvious fact that suppressing discourse is a totalitarian ideal, NOT an anarchic one. Unfortunately, many younger anarchists - particularly in the United States - have evidently lost sight of this fact... Not that it particularly matters, since the American anarchist movement is a joke right now anyways (as the incident we're speaking about well illustrates).

the vegan attackers and anti-vegan speaker are anarchists? no? then why is what you are saying relevant?

Because it happened at an "anarchist book fair".

but if those involved weren't anarchists then HOW CAN WE EVEN KICK THEM OUT OF OUR CLUB????????

GREECE.

ETHIOPIA.

ARGENTINA.

AFGHANISTAN

PLUTO

ANARCHIST NEWS

NO YOU GUYS FAIL. THIS IS THE GAME WHERE YOU NAME A COUNTRY AND THEN THE NEXT PERSON NAMES ONE THAT BEGINS WITH THE SAME LETTER THAT THE LAST ONE ENDED WITH.

AS IN GREECE-->ETHIOPIA-->ARGENTINA-->AFGHANISTAN

SO NOW THE LETTER IS N

And to whoever got it and replied correctly...you rock.

So here we go:

AFGHANISTAN

Nicaragua

Guatemala

Alameda

albion

NOW THAT'S WHAT I CALL A THREAD FULL OF WIN

1. It's interesting, wouldn't pie someone for writing a dumb book, but I'd probably punch them for calling the pigs over getting pied.
Everyone involved sounds like a sucka.

2. “I swear I did my best to ensure that his final moments were swift and free from fear. But consideration should be made for the fact that Sandor Katz was my first kill, so I trust the reader will understand that while his screams may well have seemed like conscious objections they were in reality simply a request to honour his strength and speed! With gratitude and tenderness I singed every single hair from his body, gently placed his decapitated head in a stock pot, boiled off his flesh and made a spread-able head cheese! Because I believe that one can only relate with another living creature by completely destroying it! I’m sure Sandor’s friends and family will appreciate this!”

(ahem) A rationale so moronic it defies belief. Post-vegetarian I must submit to you-respectfully-be careful what kind of world you wish for. Someday it may come knocking on your door.

“Lemme in! LEMME THE FUCK IN! I just wanna ‘fully relate.’ I swear I’ll do my best to ensure that your final moments are swift and free from fear!”

i'd totally eat sando katz's head cheese, but then i'd get teh @1D5!!!

lol!

Honestly, the ENTIRE debate regarding veganism/vegetarianism (as in, both sides) is fucking retarded. Eat your damn food, you moralistic dickwads.

I don't care if eating meat is unsustainable. I don't care if it is. I don't care if animals have to die because I think some of them taste good. I don't care that this woman was pied, even if there was cayenne pepper in it. I seriously do not care. I wish we could move away from the debate around diet. For real. Fools in Greece are getting shit done, and we are bickering about what some dude had for breakfast.

I do care that she called the cops, though. It would have been sicker if she just started socking random vegans and shit. Also, fuck the guy who said some shit about freedom of speech. Seriously, fuck you.

I am such a fucking speciest, it's almost not funny.

-Bones

GREECE

GREASE

Greasy Turkey served on bone China

This is awesome. I'd like to see more manarchists attacking women so we can get anarchism back to being the all-male social clique it was in the good old days before the chicks got uppity and started trying to speak in public.

i know, rite?

captcha = guts his

'Cause that's, like, totally what people are saying, right? This attack had nothing to do with gender, so don't bring it up.

Moron.

yeah d00d sriously why is it every time a guy puts a bitch in her place haters have to talk about gender and sexism? this chick fucking talks bad about veg*ns, it's about time a real man stood up to her.

captcha: men salve

i'm gonna pie you in yer vagina.

Yeah, fuck free speech. It's not like it's an ideal that anarchists have fought and died fo- Oh, wait, according to those IWW free speech riots last century, it fucking was.

And the whole point of the insurrection in Greece is so that people can sit down and debate and discuss things with each other as equals, to arrive at the best consensus possible. You can not have this without free speech, without dissenting opinions. Trust me, I have been there and done it (GREECE).

THERE CANNOT BE FREE SPEECH IF PEOPLE ARE NOT EQUALS (i.e.- communism/economic equality) THEREFORE TO UPHOLD "FREE SPEECH" IN OUR SOCIETY IS TO UPHOLD THE SPEECH OF THOSE WITH THE MOST ECONOMIC ABILITY TO SPEAK.

FUCK FREE SPEECH UNTIL WE ARE EQUAL.
FOR NOW, IT'S FUCKING WAR.

Totalitarian dogma from a Stalinist-in-training.

I'll take anarchy instead, thank you very much.

"FOR NOW, IT'S FUCKING WAR"

yeah, it should be, but some fucking lifestylists think being vegan and throwing pies is war. fuck lifestyle anarchism and fuck you xvx kids who think you're revolutionary!

"I AGREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"

sincerely,
- "FOR NOW, IT'S FUCKING WAR"

Should free speech be extended to fascists and nazis? If you think they shouldn't have freedom of speech then you are against free speech.

I don't think that speech which incites racial/ethnic hatred and violence should be considered "free speech" (and i'm not even talking in a legal sense, i mean in any sense). So anyone whose speech tries to take away someone else's freedom isn't using "free speech" but rather hate speech, and that i will respond to. Not so much with my own speech but rather with my own fists and boots.

Yes. I think Noam Chosmky put it best:
"I believe that people have the right of freedom and expression whatever their views, that the importance of defending these rights is all the greater when the person expresses views that are abhorrent to virtually everyone."

Yes to discussion, no to pieing ladies for criticizing veganism.

what does he say about how some have the means to have their speech heard (i.e.- the MSM) and others don't? because that is our current situation.

Speech is never "free," fuck platitudes. Also fuck the word "free" cause it means nothing anymore. A lengthy study in the various synonyms of the word "free" would be an essay into how language controls thought.

Unless rights are divine or somehow infallible then they are only privileges, and you need a higher up to grant you privileges. The type of security we malign when we talk about having no prisons and no armies.

To expect freedom of speech in this world is pointless, to speak as freely as possible and encourage others to do the same is different.

Well, he wrote a well-known treatise, "Manufacturing Consent" (also a documentary), on the subject.

Obviously, at this point in time, states, corporations, and wealthy individuals have extensive mechanisms at their disposal for disseminating their viewpoints, ie. the mainstream media, public relations agencies, etc. I totally agree with you that this is a huge problem that needs to be dealt with. However, to take this problem and turn it into an argument against free speech PER SE is, in my opinion, a dangerous precedent.

Because someone criticizing veganism as being a self-indulgent and intellectually lazy way to adress environmental problems is in any way comparable to calling on people to commit genocide. Oh wait, it isn't. Huh, funny that.

meh. ultimately, what has this action accomplished? probably more book sales and support for keith. here's a different solution i find interesting: http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2010/03/15/18641159.php

more thoughts - http://mymammouth.wordpress.com/2010/03/15/punishing-dissent/

pics or it didn't happen

ok, it didn't happen.

did you hear about the time derrick jenson spawned with / fucked a salmon during a presentation at a conference? TOATS HAPPAND

there was caviar everywhere!

SHOOP THE WOOP AND SHOW THE WORLD.

do it, dandy!

i iz poor persyn sir. i cazn't.

teh gimp is free, and doesn't suck. works on windblows and lunix.

i iz 2 pour 2 not have F.A.S., so i haz little breinz.

ok, you lost me. I know longer know what you're talking about. I concede victory to you, good sir or madam or possibly tranny.

Wiki FAS: bullet point #12

dandy.

YOU NEVER FUCKING CALL THE COPS. PERIOD.
YOU NEVER FUCKING CALL THE COPS. PERIOD.
YOU NEVER FUCKING CALL THE COPS. PERIOD.
YOU NEVER FUCKING CALL THE COPS. PERIOD.
YOU NEVER FUCKING CALL THE COPS. PERIOD.
YOU NEVER FUCKING CALL THE COPS. PERIOD.
YOU NEVER FUCKING CALL THE COPS. PERIOD.
YOU NEVER FUCKING CALL THE COPS. PERIOD.
YOU NEVER FUCKING CALL THE COPS. PERIOD.
YOU NEVER FUCKING CALL THE COPS. PERIOD.
YOU NEVER FUCKING CALL THE COPS. PERIOD.
YOU NEVER FUCKING CALL THE COPS. PERIOD.
YOU NEVER FUCKING CALL THE COPS. PERIOD.
YOU NEVER FUCKING CALL THE COPS. PERIOD.
YOU NEVER FUCKING CALL THE COPS. PERIOD.
YOU NEVER FUCKING CALL THE COPS. PERIOD.
YOU NEVER FUCKING CALL THE COPS. PERIOD.
YOU NEVER FUCKING CALL THE COPS. PERIOD.
YOU NEVER FUCKING CALL THE COPS. PERIOD.
YOU NEVER FUCKING CALL THE COPS. PERIOD.
YOU NEVER FUCKING CALL THE COPS. PERIOD.
YOU NEVER FUCKING CALL THE COPS. PERIOD.
YOU NEVER FUCKING CALL THE COPS. PERIOD.
YOU NEVER FUCKING CALL THE COPS. PERIOD.
YOU NEVER FUCKING CALL THE COPS. PERIOD.
YOU NEVER FUCKING CALL THE COPS. PERIOD.

*Unless you are about to get raped or killed. (no one should feel bad for doing whatever they have to do try and get out of a situation like that.)

People who throw cayenne pepper in someone's face like this ARE cops. The fact that their uniform is veganism doesn't make them any less cops. It's a shame that all that happened is that the fucker got the cops called, woulda been better if it had been a boot party.

above, we have an example of what is known as MEAT RAGE!!!!!!!!!

i'll throw cayenne pepper on you motherfucker, and i am not a cop!

cops get HIRED, get PAID, put people in PRISONS, CAGES, for MONTHS, YEARS.

those pie-makers weren't cops, but it does make me sad that a pie got wasted. i'm hungry.

Movement police are, if anything, more dangerous than actual police.

OCCU-PIE EVERYTHING

The headline should read WHEN LIBERALS ATTACK! Seriously, y'all are the dumbest, most irrelevant people on the planet. I'm not for exaggerating the term "assault" but you fucking seriously hurt this person with the cayenne pepper shit you put in there. Y'all are single-issue liberal morons who are angry that your stupid perspective doesn't get enough respect. I say this as someone who believes in animal liberation: Veganism is worthless, completely and utterly worthless and will always be. And the longer you focus on stupid things like veganism, the longer animals will suffer from the cages that are actually keeping them imprisoned.

Also, neither I nor anyone else on the planet knows why the fuck you keep writing vegan as "veg*n" but I'm sure the explanation further proves how stupid and irrelevant you are.

apparently (and i don't really get it either) the * means either vegan or vegetarian, it's just a simplified way of writing the two. still stupid though.

tell that to people who live in amsterdam.

...right...next time i meet someone from Amsterdam i'll be sure to tell them that.

I think you mean people from Am*dam

ANIMALS ARE FUCKIN DUMB.

us too?

Us especially.
=Mister Grumpy

How edgy!
=Mrs. Snide

How hilarious!
=Ze Sarcastic

And the @wards for longest @news comment thread goes to:

not this one. The one a few days ago (maybe a week ago?) was longer. So is the "Common Cause responds..." one that's on the main page now.

yet.

nyet.

S.A.W.B.2 was the longest I've seen.

SAWB2 won the anarcho-troll of the year award last year, dominating hands-down both the butthurt and epic lulz scores, with special achievement in exposing posturing-ass fake white allies through uncontrolled rage. Those kids got trolled hard, and the crowd was very pleased. The 2010 season is shaping up to be a good one too, if shit like this keeps happening.

Depends on perspective.
We don't share the same perspective.
It was trolled hard is all I agree with.

Fair enough.

I for one fucking lol'd like mad.

Me 2

CONSENSUS WIN!!!!!!!!1!!!!one!

i object, are those lulz vegan and fair trade?????

Shorter this:

She was kind of obnoxious, so we physically attacked her then bragged about it on the internet.

Grow the fuck up, fake anarchists.

These people aren't anarchists. Marusya Nikiforov was an anarchist. These people are poseurs.

All I have to say is NEVER trust an ex-Vegan. It was Keith's right to write the book, it was the organizer's right to invite her to speak, and it was the masked pie throwers' (plural) right to invoke their response. When all is said and done, I just laughed my ass off at the video and I wish I could have been there to see it. And I am new to this site but it really makes me sad that the Comments section of this website is just as silly and irrelevant as youtube.com comments. When did so many Anarchists become internet insurrectionists? C'mon folks, read the news here and then go outside and ORGANIZE!!
xo xo xo

When translated into plain English, the blatant and unabashed euphemism, "and it was the masked pie throwers' (plural) right to invoke their response," means "it is perfectly acceptable behavior to put pepper in a disabled woman's eyes, as long as she first said something you don't like about politics." This is the essence of the totalitarian mindset, and spoken like a true fascist. Employing euphemisms in no way lessens the intrinsic evil of this sick, cowardly, misogynist assault.

Food fascists suck. They're cowardly, authoritarian bullies, as this incident so clearly demonstrates. They're the same kind of people who voted the Nazis into power because the Nazi party platform contained a strong animal rights plank, and because Hitler claimed to be a vegetarian. Don't think for a moment that if these people had state power that they wouldn't send their version of brownshirts to kick in your door, denude your fridge of "incorrect" food, and rip off your beloved animal companions to "free" them to starve in the wild. That's the kind of people they are. That's what they believe. They admit it in public, in print and repeatedly. The only reason they aren't doing it already is they haven't the power. So instead they resort to cowardly acts of terrorism like this deplorable assault. There's a reason they throw paint on rich women's furs but not on bikers' leather jackets. They're chicken-shit hypocrites.

The first step to totalitarian society is to sit back and tolerate people with totalitarian mindsets when they act out in public like this. Instead, their cause should be nipped in the bud, ASAP and BAMN. It is the precise opposite of anarchism. Anarchism is about solidarity, mutual aid, feminism and above all, liberty. Liberty, in case you haven't figured it out yet, includes the ability to choose your own diet, without being force fed by roving gangs of masked cultists.

Yes, to all you said. Now how are we going to move beyond this and do some real work? Lierre is not The Enemy, and while people may disagree with her, there is atrocious stuff happening now. If we have to worry about protecting ourselves from one another, from retaliations, and from new assaults, the Powers That Be win. Is that really what we want? Does that really help anyone, especially animals and especially righting injustice? This kind of attack might feel great to those who are angry and powerless against the huge, ugly system, but does it help anyone in the long run?

I hope she liked her pie! =D

I would like to know exactly how the publication of a book about someone else's experiences and ideas regarding food causes vegans to suffer. Do you really expect to live in a world where you are coddled all the time and no one ever disagrees with your precious feelings?