TOTW: natalism, anti-natalism, futurism, and tigers, oh my...

A minute ago there was a thread that included a fight between an apparent anti-natalist and someone who seemed to have a knee-jerk reaction to that, and it seemed worth fleshing out to me.
What are your thoughts on the question of having children? We all know that we're anarchists here, and no one is legislating anything (natalism being usually associated with government and/or religious programs), but do you think it's better to have children or not? Do you think it's better if anarchists have kids to raise future anarchists, or that people should avoid having children because fewer people is better?
For those of us with It-Doesn't-Matter-itis, just play along for now with this thought experiment. Have fun!

edit: here is the other thread

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If we continue these considerations to the bitter end, then the conclusion is not in doubt. As long as humankind recklessly proceeds in the fateful delusion of being biologically fated for triumph, nothing essential will change. As its numbers mount and the spiritual atmosphere thickens, the techniques of protection must assume an increasingly brutal character.

And humans will persist in dreaming of salvation and affirmation and a new Messiah. Yet when many saviours have been nailed to trees and stoned on the city squares, then the last Messiah shall come.

Then will appear the man who, as the first of all, has dared strip his soul naked and submit it alive to the outmost thought of the lineage, the very idea of doom. A man who has fathomed life and its cosmic ground, and whose pain is the Earth’s collective pain. With what furious screams shall not mobs of all nations cry out for his thousandfold death, when like a cloth his voice encloses the globe, and the strange message has resounded for the first and last time:

“– The life of the worlds is a roaring river, but Earth’s is a pond and a backwater.

– The sign of doom is written on your brows – how long will ye kick against the pin-pricks?

– But there is one conquest and one crown, one redemption and one solution.

– Know yourselves – be infertile and let the earth be silent after ye.”

And when he has spoken, they will pour themselves over him, led by the pacifier makers and the midwives, and bury him in their fingernails.

"poetic" and probable.

"Yet when many saviours have been nailed to trees and stoned on the city squares, then the last Messiah shall come."

Kewl eschatological revivalism, dood!

I also used to be the messiah when I was a teenager. Got messed up as usual with pretenders. The movie The Holy Mountain has it right about the Messiah. Perhaps some guy like Akala is close, but it's more likely we get some superhuman entity coming down from a spaceship of sorts, just to tell humans who's been really entitled to this place a long while back, instead of a bunch of old creeps like Murdoch and yeah, that Epstein guy.

so here's a trivial comment to offer some breadth...
the idea that it's better for anarchists to have children than non-anarchists is the most insane idea to me (and one that was said in that previous thread).
a. anarchists having kids doesn't mean non-anarchists don't have kids,
b. if the issue is too many people, then thinking that someone's ideas are relevant is a non sequitur.
c. if the issue is making more anarchists, have you ever *met* a kid? if kids followed in their parents' footsteps, the world would be a very different place.
just sayin'!

i wanna win my next anarchist trivia contest!

I used to think it was better to not have children, but my opinion on this, as with many things has shifted from a black and white view to one that is grey. While I am not going to ever have kids, I've come to like children, generally, including some with anarchist parents.

As to whether or not anarchists should have kids, I don't really see that as much different than the question of whether anyone should have kids. On the pro-side, a lot of the black diaper babies I know have seemingly absorbed some of the ethics of their parents, though admittedly, the oldest I can think of off the top of my head is just reaching their teens (oh god, I love teens!), so we'll see what teenage rebellion brings. On the downside, parenting often makes continued participation in anarchist activity more difficult, though this is not universal, and maybe it is just that the types of activity look different?

How can you conflate being dubious of making more babies with not liking kids?

Kids rebel at all ages, not just when they are teens. Wow, all your assumptions from watching a few of your friend's kids occasionally makes for many inaccuracies. You should have some kids yourself so you don't come across as a knowall when talking about them ;)

having one kid doesn't make you an expert. Have a dozen. Knowing 12 individuals will do the trick. ;)

Oh, so catholics and hindus are experts, and the main cause for overpopulation?

If by some failure in my diligence, I'd probably welcome the happening as the fatalism of the stars and fairyfolk, or something. It is by contrast that I've always felt I've been too much holding on by the skin of my teeth to ever consider the intention to have children. With that, I feel I am a little too self-absorbed to impose myself so solidly upon an other's life.

Despite these seeming minuses to the prospect, I've known, and still know, a few individuals who've made me feel like I was carrying my gonads around in a wheelbarrow, and if they'd the intent... I suppose I'd now be living in a shoe.

As things stand, I imagine the added jeopardy to my existence of caring for little'uns would compromise me in ways I'm not prepared to accept. Perhaps if I were part of a robust community that shared in nurturing a child, I'd feel very differently. As it is, the community I am a part of has proven very fragile and tenuous with regards to interpersonal relationships.

I don't go in for the idea of too many individuals, just too many capitalists. The anarchists who have children, and the children who have anarchists, seem only to be made to needlessly suffer by the state. There are also those who have discovered anarchy since having children, with the child being their first sure punch-on-the-lip acknowledgement of how a life is imposed upon by systems of control.

As for an opinion... Whatever! The only tangible bias I have is I'm rather glad I got to be here with the thoughts, feelings, and experience; however I haven't any plans for creating a new life except for my own's recreation.

is that they are chaos. they add some "out of control"-ness to someone's life that is/can be Good or anarchist or whatever.
i, however, get my chaos from my friends and the world, so, children would be gilding the lily...

Heh! Love this argument because it applies to all sorts of bad ideas: meth, sex with the driver at highway speed... Indoor fireworks fights... Throwing yourself down the stairs.. Sharing housing with people with severe addictions... Playing in traffic... Snorting the salt and squirting the lime in your eye... Telling people you read Atassa.. Meth ...

Alas, evolution had her own ideas, and won. Kids will continue to birth potential is not our place to govern them as much as we might want to. We can only make these decisions for ourselves. We can attempt to educate, be examples, try to raise children to become adults, to see the shackles we subconsciously choose to wear and exalt (tarot devil card anyone?), and thus, one day, we can reach a critical mass of real adults choosing freedom.

I've broached this topic recently in my own ring world, surprised to find it here. I haven't found the thread that is referenced, but I'll jump in.

The reproductive drive is an original archon. It is one of the most primitive drives of all living things. Even the archon of survival, superior to all other archons and principalities, bows to the archon of replication. Unenlightened survival is for the sole purpose of replication. In fact, the archon of deception, necessary to keep us ignorant of the unadulterated reality, was necessary, so that we could survive long enough and reproduce without dying of terror first.

Archons are hierarchical, essential to life-kind, and indestructible...they will exist even when we are gone, and exist in all realities, past, present and future. While necessary for life to emerge and multiply, they are also, ignorantly oppressive. And that is a key understanding, all such archons and principalities are ignorant. Let us not be, as we have been.

Most species simply survive; they don't live. Even those who are capable of believing, and believe they are living, sapiens for example, often, are just mindlessly and ignorantly has never really occurred to them what there lives could be like beyond their primitive drives to gain power and status to improve and increase their mating and sexual options and fantasies. Satisfying those drives makes them feel alive powerful.

No judgement here, that is just the best they are capable of. Even if one seems ready to wake up, giving up the hope for attaining power, status and sex, ancient and primitive drives enculturated within them and their whole society, subconsciously terrifies them, and they invariably retreat back into ignorance. They are ignorant but innocent.

As a side note, this is why it is so futile to try and save them, their primitive subconscious drives can't accept the idea of real freedom, and their subconscious fear of naked reality, and of what evil others would do with such freedom...well...they can't handle it.

So, what would a conscious anarchist do? Assuming they understand even the emotions of love is just a bunch of chemistry and reactionary impulses to insure replication, and they believe in liberation for all things, thus understand that sapiens overpopulation oppresses not only other sapiens freedom, but that of other species and is indeed killing our Mother, I believe they would rationally and sanely choose to not reproduce unless, and or until, a child could be free and it wouldn't oppress others, every other, sapiens and non-sapiens, and the earth.

If we are capable, individually or as a "village", please adopt.

beep boop beep boop
i am a robot
zero births are optimal
it’s the rational choice

never married and no children so the prospects for reproduction aren't good at this point. There are some promising developments in the field of genetic engineering and the combination of DIY CRISPR kits and steam punk technology could enable us to create antifa super soldiers to compete on the bionic horizon. William Gillis might be able to help with that one.

That's the whole poiñtlessness of vegan antinatal to save the world, the elderly will require ro ot assistance and carers which will further deplete the resources and require more energy and space to accomodate than just one oldfashioned brattish kid with a runny nose who only needs à couple of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and a pepsi to run all day.

*robot assistance *

The elderly, and those wishing not to live, and those who choose to sacrifice themselves for the greater good of all others and the earth, could honorably allow themselves to become food.

*dry reaches* Aargh uurgh, oh disgusting old human mutton, toxic and rancid grey pink singed pubic flacid charcoaled gagging on sagging breast with gnashing teeth, no more the tender teat.

great visual visceral prose! Awesome, thanks!

of the food value of human bodies but with organ harvesting and salvaging of cellular material bodies may eventually be fully recycled back into the population.

I'm sure they're nutritional enough, but the current practices of entombing our bodies in wood, concrete and steal is ignorant and overly sentimental woowoo, IMO.

Its going to cost the environment MORE not having children than having a Utopianist elderly society without them

Wow, dont you mean when not having children IN A UTOPIANIST elderly society. You sound like you have mental erectile dysfunction. That's one good thing about kids they don't need enhancers and stimulants.

An awakened anarchist at this point and time will realize, not only is it irrational to continue populating the earth, but accept the fact that the herd will irrationally choose to keep birthing, our options are few, as even remaining childless, the problem will continue.

We simply don't have enough critical mass to change things sufficiently in time before the tipping point. The tipping point shouldn't be seen as an end-all, life will persist, as one poster already mentioned. But, if we believe evolved sapiens are worth hanging around forth, sapiens who can act mindfully, embracing both the wonders nature and evolution has endowed us with, but not being ruled by them, then there are paths to take.

Certainly the indigenous, the green, ecos, primitives could find life on the planet but that entails the anti-anarchist trait of putting others first, especially non-sapiens life and the planet. Sapiens would survive, blend and be mart of the homeostasis of the biosphere. this seems to be a choice many of them are good with and I think it is a beautiful and noble choice.

The rest of us, including myself, simply must leave the planet one way or the other. My preference would be to migrate to space. Other options I already mentioned. It really depends, as post-anarchist realize, what ideals we kneel for.

Shortsighted egotism, perfectly valid, despite the seemingly derogatory adjective, would be about getting all we can in the here and now while evading and/or sticking it to the man.

Altruistic egotism would realize I can never experience the freedom I desire until all other sapiens are free, and some, will take the ideal so far as till all living things can be free.

Of course, in space, all the different hyphenateds, ideals, perspectives, tribes, collectives, confederations and federations, ad nauseum, respectfully, could praxis out their visions as they saw fit; cooperatively, or in isolation.

In space, with simple technology, energy is basically unlimited. With unlimited energy and laboratory technologies and hydro/aquaponics, food would be of little or no concern.

We just have to get there.

on space stations in geosynchronous orbit and use high altitude balloons to truck our supplies in. I think there is already a plan in the works. All we need is a little thrust.

I'm with you. As well as many other theoretically sound options. The technology is existent, or seconds away. But, can we make the transition without bring along oppressive insanity? Or can we do it in an autonomous manner? Will space become property-ized? This is where a couple of billionaire friends would be useful :)

Where are all the natural resources coming from for this space station? I’m not working in the mines for you. Haha

I assume you’re joking. How rich are you?

Within the solar system, in space, energy is practically unlimited. As I've described elsewhere, food should also be a non-issue...It is near a done deal where organic foods can now be replicated from previously collected organic materials, and hydro/aquaponic gardening is elegantly viable. Add to that increasing robotic technology, even a lot of manual labor would be necessary. But certainly, we'd have to rely on a certain amount of volunteerism to just keep everything running efficiently. Energy, food, recycling, sustainability is very doable. What we do with the freedom, if we are free to be free, is the real question.

Of course, ideally we would all be free to do whatever we wanted, as long as it didn't oppress or endanger others. What do I care if you spend your whole day playing videogames and watching porn when you aren't taking anything from me? There would be no scarcity of resources.

I'd love to see what a collective of diverse anarchist would do if such a 'state' was achieved.

Not joking about the only rational decision is for man to leave the earth. I am very poor.

Space sounds like a wild ride. I was going to say something like “I don’t know if I could ever relax with as much reliance I would have on the infrastructure,” but then I thought about how reliant I am on Earth.
Har har.

Not that I’m much at ease here. Maybe there’s something to the low-tech proposals for us less *dominated* by rationality. ;) I kid.

Naively believing it'll be just anyone instead of a few billionaire families living in orbital stations as the next-level HIGH luxury real estate...

Technically it'd be the best place for the ultra-wealthy to flee in a near future. Why fleeing far away in big spaceships when they can remain around here? Far enough from deep space, yet also far above any other human's reach (with rocks, or molotovs, or even gun shots)... yet every night and maybe even in daytime you can watch their space resorts dominating high in the skies upon your failed society. Their ground space ports heavily-guarded by the military... so what will you gunna do?

So sick for a sci-fi plot, so close to our current world. The technological and economic groundwork for such an orbital domination is already all over the place. Yeah... just a little more push is needed in that direction, yet YOU or I won't be part of it.

There's no "We" when it comes to humans.

Thus the need to turn a few billionaires our way. Hell, I'd even reduce myself to altruistic sacrifice, sell myself and soul, give my life to find the resources to create such an autonomous.

Until all are free, life and liberty may need sacrificing for.

But yes, odds are it will go the other way as you say. There is no inherent justice or meaning in the world. I know this nihilist truth in my heart. I see the abyss, here, now, as Le Way mentions.

But, having spent years wallowing in the futility of existence, homeless, institutionalized, now I find freedom is a choice, even if only delusionally and as long as I know I am indulging in the illusion.

While I may come off at times as sentimental, compassionate and hopeful, it is only because I've decided to give meaning to those things, even though I know that such sentiments are probably futile . Its a choice among others, like being bitter, pessimistic, fatalistic...and all those choices are still in me as well. That is the liberation I know.

So, in the off chance something 'miraculous' will occur, I enjoy learning, studying, researching, discussing, planning, cultivating and preparing for the best scenario. This makes my soul happy, Stirnerianlly and may end up being useful.

Mind liberated by seeing reality as it is, nihilistic.

That all said, finding the billionaires or elsewise achieving the resources to create such a haven and being allowed to create an nrkst society are probably insurmountable obstacles. Still, a plebe can dream :)

Dream on in vacuum my metal rocketed plebe, my cosmos is the mysterious ocean of the mind and the creative islands of imaginations.

We have multiple delusions to choose from, I honor your choice and freedom. I escape there often.

I've actually rid myself of delusions and spooks since reading Stirner. I do not ESCAPE from anything billyjef, I face it or run towards it, in the bushido way!

"my cosmos is the mysterious ocean of the mind and the creative islands of imaginations."

Clarify for me if you wish, but I have no judgement either way. In fact, science, not spooks of the mind, says
we are all many personalities and egos, cosmologies of delusions.

Being liberated is the freedom to choose in the face of naked and unadulterated reality, as best we can perceive it through genuine insight, never ignorant of it. I am a student of Dao but not a slave to it, nor a slave to the honor code of Samurai, but admire, respect and try to emulate it appropriately. The Art of War holds a prominent place on my bookshelf, but it is only written by sapiens, and thus not a perfect ideal for all situations, although the posture and stance of it is desirable.

When I am tired and need to decompress, I find escaping pleasant, no shame or weakness in that, ala Stirner. I am only human, no matter how enlightened I think I am.

I don't negate to protect the spook of belief that I am not understood, which is only a spook of being afraid of being understood, which is a really clinging to the delusion of being more sane/enlightened than others, else I am the insane one, and that is intolerable. I have faced this, I've been insane, I can choose to be insane again, I can let go, or not.

I never said I was perfect, I am the first to admit that I am flawed, ala Stirner, I am not a slave to Bushido, I do not own a sword, I do not have any master, you could say I was a ronin, but no, I am a nothing fated to live on Earth, and never go into space, get over it Billyjef ;)

And here I was hoping you were my savior ;)

the boundaries are not hard lines but fields of probability. Realist bias compels you to put the kibosh on our flights of fancy and reinforce consensus reality but please allow us to color outside the lines because this is how worlds are made. If me and billyjef talk about tethering a balloon and going to live on space junk the multiverse has to start planning for that possibility however improbable it may be. So we are expanding the Overton window in a new direction and preparing the ground for future adventure.

Escape from the Lords of Flies!

Okay, for once GO3 you suceeded at getting some lol from me.

was a Jehovah's Witness and an Adelle Davis fan so I was engineered like a Manchurian candidate for the apocalypse and the coming insurrection. I was trained in alternative sports like skateboarding, hacky sack and assorted martial arts in a mystic stew pot of nature and nurture. Glad I was finally able to amuse you, I realise it is no easy task and I of course live for these moments.

situations change and hopefully the trans-rational will help us find a path out of the current predicament.

having kids is not vegan.

you need to grow trees instead.

I dont have kids and dont plan to, but I did sell my sperms once. Im curious if anti-natalists see this as something theyre against. I just rubbed one out like normal, except that time I got paid. If there was no one willing to take my seed then the kid wouldnt come into being. So is the guilt of natalism on me in any way or is it just on the person who buys it?

OMG Imagine a world without children, just old senile nihilists, 'cos one would have to be a natal nihilist or pregnancy-nihilist to be anti-natalist. It would be sooo tedious and doddering world, and the music, OMG old nostalgic sentimental stuff, kill me before I reach 30yrs of age please :(

01:45, you don't have to worry, it could never happen, the small level of anti-natalism that exists today shouldn't ever suddenly become a majority preference, there is an innate addiction to baby existence for which there is no substitute.

also, i can just talk about anything else instead.

i lie on the floor with eyes wide open
the ceiling shuts my vision as thoroughly as my eyelids would.
i remember a meme i heard on the train today.
it’s i meme i recognize and one i like.
someone was repeating it on the phone.
how many times? 3-4?
i did not look up. i could have made a quip to start a conversation. or at least make eye contact and smile complicitly (a corny way to put it).
the train stopped, i beelined to the door ajar, the stairs out of the station, my vehicle in the parking, drove straight to my parents house, my childhood home, where i live.
i swipe at anews, click links, skim texts, leave comments

Less Sex, Fewer Babies: Blame The Internet And Career Priorities (6 min. podcast)

"All this raises alarms for the economy. Economies need new workers to replace older workers as they retire. When a nation's birthrate drops too low, certain sectors can experience employee shortages, and ultimately, the economy might shrink."

- i'm too sexy for this totw

That's when immigration k8cks in when affluent countries import children from underdevelopec countries whose only affordable entertainment is sex because its free.

Yeah anti-natal = immigrant child exploitation = child sex trafficing = entertainment for wealthy celebrities, moguls and politicians. Thanks Ria and JZ.

lol, what do you mean? wouldn’t that make it right up your alley?

Umm, well, incase you didn't realize and never dissect abbreviations for what they mean, Incel means "involuntary celibacy" .....INVOLUNTARY!!! NOT TO MY LIKING!! I would prefer to be having gratuitous multiple unprotected sexual intercourse events sowing my seeds, but NO, I DO NOT ATTRACT women because I am poor, and maybe sexist in their eyes, or not career conscious enough.
So its not RIGHT UP MY ALLEY!!

tomato schtomato, as the saying goes.
As we all know the saying goes.

So ... To recap, you're not rich but if it was up to you, there would be a trail of babies in your wake? Presumably born with all the STIs possible? Just clarifying.

Don’t worry, they’re not a real incel. They just pretend to be one on a thread to make a point and joke around.

But remember, just to be safe:


Please call you congressperson or representative to help pass Cuck Control Laws to acompany Gun Control Laws, since it’s not guns by themselves that kill people, but Beta Cucks on the loose. Let’s stop this epidemic.

This has been a public service announcement.

I carry my up-to-date medical certificate saying I'm all clear for unprotected sex, this was incase I landed some work in the porn industry, however they say my facial features are a put-off and totally unsexy and unattractive, thus my Incel status. There was one part I could have played the lustful Dionysus wearing a goat mask in a porn parody of the Greek myths, but alas, the recruiting team found fault with my genitilia, but I wont go into details. They said I could get the part if I double dosed on Viagra, but worried about the effects on my brain, my mind is big enough as it is, but and erect mind goes beyond imagination. Any thoughts on Viagra, at your age you must be tempted to indulge?

Typo - * but an erect mind goes beyond imagination *

Yep, snorting big fat rails of dick pills, all day e'ry day!

Our Viking genes make it impossible for us to be anti-natalized! Vikings will never become extinct!

but that’s a different anon than me!
i would never get into petty squabbles with you! <3

Whatever anon! Don't try to blame anon! We both know you're up to your usual anon shit like the anon you are so don't even!

I'm agnostic on the whole and find adopting part of the position as a useful argumentative tool against pathological pro-natalism(anti-abortion for instance). Being brought into physical reality is not an imposition in my view but it's also not this valuable thing in itself that one should be grateful for.

Just thought of another niche anarchist ideology. Post-Ageism, when everyone is old.

I heard from a friend in the UK that some kids were taken from anarchists parents for political reasons. Having children is a vulnerability within radical politics (at least in some places.)

In a similar vein, being an anarchist can affect custody cases. My housemate was in a custody battle with her ex. He used her stance as an anarchist in the courts in an attempt to take her children away from her.

As for raising a child to be an anarchist: all children are raised somehow. It can be by public schools and mainstream media and/or the family's (or the community, collective house, friend group, etc) can take matters in their own hands and teach alternative histories, tell different stories, teach a set of values that align with a world that has or could be. I think if anyone is worried about this (like, if it's a sort of brainwashing) I would stress that critical thinking is an anarchist weapon, see Wolfie Landstriecher's "Critical Thinking as an Anarchist Weapon." This doesn't entirely safe-guard against "brain-washing" as facts are complicated.

Raising children is one ethical decision after the other. It's not just yes or no to child-raising. It's constant. I am a parent, and I would love to get advice from other anarchists (what does that even mean these days lol) who in good-faith and with with the child's safety in mind (at least until the frontal lobe is fully developed) mean me well. Other than what I mentioned, is there anything that I'm missing.

What values would you teach a child as an anarchist family / group? Would you try to live differently than mainstream consumerist ways? Or simply be critical and contribute anarchist dialogues into the situation at large? Would you rather your child be able to "blend in" until adulthood, or would you go full-out and raise a (for example, primitive skills, foraging, subsistence farming, criminal, hacking) deviant in this world?

I had a golden retriever once, when I was still a sheep, whose sole purpose in life was to chase squirrels. Days where a squirrel didn't show itself, were sad days. The obsession to chase squirrels led to one day, he actually caught one. I never saw him so confused and bewildered. Clearly he'd never considered what he would do if he caught a squirrel.

I've only begun trying to research recommended ways to raise children in a way that allow them to mature into adults with liberated minds. Certainly, unless we are in the camp of sapiens should become extinct, the questions you ask should be mindfully studied, before we topple all the oppressive regimes.

There were anarchist focused on these questions. The report of one, which I've only read a little of, and someone more knowledgeable about the result of his efforts could better contribute, is Francisco Ferrer...I'm half way through his 60 page document, The Origin and Ideals of the Modern School. You can find that and other books/documents at and use the search function. I've done searches wit 'education' and 'child development' and gotten tons to read.

“Unschooling” as a movement / approach looks very anarchistic to me. All learning is left to the child to initiate and adults mearly enable them to learn when and what the desire to, even reading. Until the child wants to learn, the parent leaves them alone about it. But when the child shows an interest, they are given the resources and mentors to learn from (or allowed to find them on their own.)

There’s also the free range child movement. Which is a very hands-off, lots of free time out-of-doors unsupervised, even in the city.

The downside to both of these approaches is community standards and policing. In my opinion, people feel real entitled to manage “the next generation” without giving two flying fucks about your family in any other way. Different cultures I guess.

but i feel like if i ever had a kid they would get policed, and then it's on you to help them deal with it.

You better make sure there's a very big playground when you deschool society.

But isn't that what an anarchic society would be, one great big playground? And what a great place to raise kids :)

There are so many types of anarchism out there now, it hardly makes any significant difference as to child raising, since most ideologies somehow assume that the standard school, family scene, and socializing with others will impute the social values automatically. For instance, syndicalist anarchist's kids will have similar values to communist kids.BUT THEY ALL ERROR! Beneath the veneer of mannerisms parents attempt to teach their child lies the pure primeval infantile impulse devoid of cultural values. If one was to critically analyse their attitudes and values or lack thereof to property, and their spontaneity and emotional honesty they would more closely resemble the individualist anarch Stirnerian.
I would teach a child some language and writing and basic maths and a whole lotta fun and affection and leave the rest to experience with their own peers.

I wonder what in common the different varieties of nrk might have in regards to raising children and how the differences would enrich their becoming free sapiens.

I think, in the future, when society has become nrkick, regardless of the nrkick affiliation of the parents, acknowledging in such a future, a child wouldn't necessarily have to have been conceived by parents as we might think today, the guardians would be free to raise the child as their wisdom guides them.

If it were me, I think, but am not confident, a primary guiding light would be that the child be exposed to reality in a way that doesn't hide the true nature of reality, but, simultaneously, I'd want to make available to them all the resources that would help them grow and realize the potential liberation and freedom possible if they want it; emotional, educational and practical resources.

Just some thoughts, maybe even ignorant ones :)

Haha billyjef, your " Just some thoughts, maybe even ignorant ones :) " has really opened up the discussion by introducing a hierarchy of mental ability, just what most 3ducation systems operate under in Western capitalist wociety.

Can't believe how many times I've wanted to just click on like rather than have to choose to reply or not since I've joined this site. While I've been off facebook for quite awhile, I still twitter some. Made me realize how entrained I've allowed myself to become.

Of course it isn't the like buttons that are bad, or even getting used to using them, it is what the entities behind the like button are using my preferences for.

As Yuval Harari is clear about, the entities behind the like buttons are at the point where they will know me better than I know myself, or at least if I was hopelessly a member of the herd...but they do legiblize me.

to fill out a form to see if it was okay for me to have children. The first part of the conversation started with them handing me a bomb making kit and then they just ran into the forest so i could figure it out myself. Oh jeez, i had to download tor and everything. Then after I was done they told me that my dedication to human life was high, but they still are handing me these weird cryptic tests.

This was all killing my boner, so i just decided not to have children. Me and sweetums were chatting about IUDs and different forms of contraception over coffee this morning. I feel like a human again!

do u nazi here often?

spay or neuter your pets

and lovers?

be your own pet

Actually, what ppl are joking about is actually common in advanced Western cultures. Voluntary sterilization and contraception and abortion is widespread, so much so that zero population growth has almost been reached and if not for immigration the populations would be decreasing. Anti-natalism is thriving in affluent nations So all the Ria and JZ drama doesn't even apply to his main audience, it would be more pertinent in the underdeveloped regions.

divine contraception

"Divine contraception" If only there was a sane God that prevented overpopulation, starvation and suffering, instead of this psychopathic X-tian god which enjoys guilt, painand sheepish adoration.

If there were infertility gods, anti-natalists could make offerings to them every Sunday, and everyone would be happy.

bureaucratic control procedures and rituals that come along with having a child these days. You can't just have sex and not worry about the consequences! It happens and they usually get punished for the rest of their lives. Teen pregnancy is scorned, free sex is wierd, women take on a lot of burdens that i don't even understand and condoms make sex less fun. STDs are bad not so much as in what they do but the shame of it.

Adoption is a great option! No rhyme intended. Having children is always different in different circumstances.

no one has said anything about the tigers

For all innats (involuntary natalists) Tigers eat kids.

OMG all the ressentiment carried around by Innats, they really fit the profile of mass shooters.

are those tigers what kind of experiences a child born today will have in their lifetime?

you beat me it.

Tell us a story! What do you mean by Tigers?

it’s one think to advocate for reproductive rights, and contraception as rational choice for an individual to make, and another is to campaign for human extinction.

it’s possible that the current trends of Progress and Humanism lead to people’s extinction, but it’d be in the name of their prosperity. some people despise the mere thought of life, particularly human, and wish it to be gone.

so there can be different kinds of crazy and sane peeps advocating for seemingly similar positions at a first glance, and different flavors of madness. a contrived blueprint for each nomothetic control freak there exists.

way too much of that going around

"it’s one think..."

that's one stink!

Of course, it would probably only be available to a select elite when it happens.

But, if in a dream world, somewhere amongst Le Ways mental cosmology, an anarchist society was realized for the whole planet, and we could all live forever if we wanted, and, for the heck of it (my hillbilly showing again), our population had achieved a healthy and stable homeostasis with the planet, do we natal or not?

fuck that, i never want that, that would be hell.

i take great comfort that all the ultra-dystopian visions of the future are completely impossible. Robots will not be autonomous. What scares me a little bit still is the possibility of people actually being able to use machines to read your thoughts. Well, im donating my thoughts to the internet, but atleast it's still "voluntary"

An AI is designed to be having a level of autonomy. Yet they cannot develop an AI that's got a will of its own. Techies don't get this part as themselves tend to be normies who don't have a clue of what free will (as in self-possessed, self-determined intent) means, or the concept is alien to them.

There might be an eventual risk of a truly autonomous AI when there's a purpose for building one. Maybe DARPA would be sick enough for this, but afaik the only rationales I've seen for giving AIs some autonomy were for doing some minute tasks. How it could develop a will from this is beyond me... jus as the origins of will or intend aren't that east to corner.

Careful what you project into my cosmology! Old samurai saying --- Thoughts are like swords, once they are juxtaposed into a different context, blood is spilt!

so that you may continue your whacky new age "trolling"! Atleast if blood is spilt, well so much for immortality, modern sciene has not created a solution for blood. What if the FBI doesn't even care about this forum at all, and there's some mad scientist in the DARPA basement who reads all of this, throws ideas out there that are likely to fail to get the higher ups to think about their projects a little bit differently?

the more fascist/communist politics of mass murder and persecution have died out a little since the 20th century, the 21st century is the hallmark of technological inefficiency, entrepreneurial stupidity, and shadow politics.

I wonder what IGD would look like if it had a comment section, in comparison to this one.
Would the same half a dozen trolls and anons post on both?

Of course they would, any ideological orientated site will attract trolls, even merchandizing sites are trolled.

i know trolls are a given. what i was wondering is if it would be the same ones, the same people. like how small or big and interconnected is the anglo @ troller sphere?

I couldn't imagine senileoldtroll trolling one of those chic celebrity Kardashian type sites, unless he had a creepy attachment to engaging in conversation with teenage girls about fashion, makeup, favourite candy, best boy band or pop idol stuff, though one never knows, the wierd types around these days, shooters being the average Joe nextdoor, and crazy meth addicts too wrapped up in survival to even contemplate blogging, let alone owning a computer or cellphone.

Some guy came up with 1 in 35 people troll. I don't know what he based his guidelines on, but some idea can be had from the inclusìon of Trump as a troll, but he explained that in his case, trolling was a PR stunt to appeal to the anti-Idpol electorate, and those wanting a return to freedom of speech. This puts trolling in a positive light, and that trolls are often honest and transparent, regardless of whether you agree with their opinion.
So is it those against trolls who want to suppress freedom of speech and want a totalitarian uniformity of opinion?

futurism and tigers?

i don't think tigers in jetpacks are very practical.

a scary proposition nonetheless

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