Anarchy Radio: 09-10-2019

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mentioned Paul Kingsnorth yet and, minutes later...he did! I have to say JZ bemoans Kingsnorth 'giving up' yet what does JZ actually do that's any different from Paul Kingsnorth? And there's Kathan bigging up Neil Young rant on vinyl buying better than a compressed music file and, nothing said regarding both vinyl and MP3s need industrialism to produce both and both are symbolic and representational: not the real thing. Nothing said. Consistently inconsistent I guess.

I keep listening with the hope it'll finally make sense.
But every week John reads out a bunch of headlines without providing any context for why they fit together, and more to the point, why they fit together for anarchists.
This week, after reading some headlines, he says it shows a blanket distrust of institutional authority but he uses a tone that sounds to me as if he thinks this is a bad thing. (?)
At another point, talking about the UK he says the Brexit debacle has lead to people loosing all faith in politicians, again, with a tone that sounds like he thinks this is horrible. Huh?
Then he mentions an auto recall and says it should be easy to build properly functioning cars and I'm scratching my head because isn't John a primal anarchist?

But at least he mentions the new Negativland album.

maybe his deadpan sarcasm is too dry? i wouldn't know, i didn't listen to this


oh boy

Well, this would be the generous take. I just can't seem to locate the sarcasm. He comes across as angry that the world is falling apart, like actually we all should be more civil and become primitivists in a nicer way.

I'm not sure what the purpose is of Anarchy Radio. As you say, it is a discombobulated from beginning to end: a ragtag thread of pieces of 'news' from here and there thrown together punctuated by some music. Now and again, a decent phone call which could be fleshed out but JZ bemoans airtime is disappearing. Now and gain, JZ has a moment of sarcastic brilliance inducing a proper belly laugh. I would like him to respond (on air, even with a pre-written piece) to the polemic on him by Murray Bookchin, particularly on JZ's insistence that primitivist (co-called) lifeways were sweetness and light without hardly any toil, suffering, etc and that humans were as 'intelligent' way back then but chose not to 'advance' with metallurgy, art, language etc? There is also Bookchin's claim (referenced) that much of the flora and fauna was wiped out by humans before technology and symbolic thinking as humans became professional with their controlled use of fire. I am not talking about any personal differences JZ and Bookchin may have or had, but the arguments put forward by Bookchin against the work of JZ. And yes, Bookchin's own ideas/solutions may be flawed. However, it is JZ's response to the claims made by Bookchin regarding JZ's work/perspective on primitivism; past and present, that interests me. I have read Bob Black's response but he doesn't address the claims made against JZ/primitivism.

Sounds like it would be better if someone stood up and tried to defend Bookchin's pseudo-scientific bullshit rather than JZ defending proven orthodox anthropology. Bookchin's claims against primitivism are simply laughable.

what he (Kingsnorth) should do in your opinion? Should he tell everyone that 'it' can be 'saved' (whatever 'it' and 'saved' means? Yes, Kingsnorth was a mouth piece for the eco movement not for an army of insurgents with shit loads of backing. Kingsnorth can only do so much. So what if Kingsnorth says 'Fuck it, i give in.' What more could he do: become a martyr, is that what you want of him: a dead or imprisoned father and partner? And you, JZ, sit back perusing the newspapers, writing pieces here and there and presenting a hotch-potch of news pieces each week...what the fuck does that do that's any the-fuck-different to Kingsnorth? JZ, you sound bitter, perhaps jealous? Kingsnorth owes you fuckall.

You're confusing what people say with what they are doing, and both with what how the problem can actually be dealt with.

Both JZ and PK see the crisis for what it is. JZ says we can do something about it, whereas PK says we are all fucked, so just give up. By "we" they both mean humans in general, not individually. It's not about what JZ or PK are doing about it at an individual level, since that level isn't going to do anything anyway. JZ just doesn't like PK's defeatist attitude at this general level, that's all.

And after considering all the things that could be done,,,,,,,we are all fucked!

whelp, i guess the death of one very popular individual could lead to the collapse of civilization. Global warming? It's still cold in the winter! LIKE ME MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! I CAN'T BE IGNORED, IM SEDUCTIVE, MORE SEDUCTIVE THAN EARLY OTTS CRIME THINC!

And still just trying to get the ball moving on this thing....

Here's the thing, Kingsnorth hasn't given up altogether, he has stopped thinking there is a global solution to what are in fact infinite local issues. He has started living small because that is what he thinks *can* be done. When PK says there are no problems & thus no solutions he is going back to square one, life at it's core is not a problem to be solved, it is just to be lived. So he is putting that into practice by trying to live in place, in a watershed. And yes he admits he can't really do it, he has electricity and a car etc. Still, I think his turn away from the global toward the local is the best any of us can do.

JZ mis-reads Kingsnorth. It's one thing to disagree but another to not even understand the argument being made.
And if JZ really does see the crisis for what it is he surely wastes a lot of time not making that explicit on his show. Reading a series of articles does not an analysis make.

And you've misread PK and missed the whole point. Lots of people are already putting their concerns into practice, everything from simple recycling to moving to the country in order to live in communes. The difference is PK stops there, shrugs his shoulders, and says there's nothing else we can do...we're all fucked, so I'm just going to tend to my own little garden and live like a Buddhist.

JZ says hold on, there's always more we can do....we're not fucked yet. Get together with other people, destroy what destroys us. Fuck shit up. Revolt, rebel, fight back., make total destroy, burn it all down, and above all...don't give up like some pussy. At least go down swinging, it's a lot more fun anyway.

There is nothing to revolt to or swing at. Human existence at the end of the day is psychological and if you have a problem with the leviathanic society you live in you disassociate from it you don't try to fight some phantom construct.

Ironically I think PK like JZ and all other greenies is too structured by catastrophe. It's probable that this society might figure something out later on in the 21st century. That does not take away from the need for those who want to live a more immediate terrestrial existence to disassociate from civilized society.

Ironically PK's discourse makes more uncivilizing sense then JZ's discourse does which remains rooted in 1960s humanist can-do save the world attitudes. For someone so 'anti-left' JZ is still one hell of a habituated humanist like Perlman before him.

if you have a problem with the leviathanic society you live in you disassociate from it you don't try to fight some phantom construct."

Yeeees, SE, because you said so.

No fight back... keep head low... Keep mouth shut... Fold back inside... and of course, stay home. Be an irrelevant useless eater.... then use a computer and the internet to annoy everyone with your pretentious online brain farts. Only fight anarchists, love the sheep, and the cops, and the liberals too.

What's the concrete target here? Do you think civilization is just a product of production and extraction? That's part of it but it's also driven by manifold desires, attachments and excesses that are not directly meant to be civilized. Hell some anarchist desires are part of this. Do you not figure how much of contemporary desires are connected to the structure of fossil fuels for instance. It's completely integrated into BILLIONS of peoples lives. You don't fight back something like this. You tend to your own and and do what you can plain and simple.

Again I will say that PK at least does the first step in a thousand mile journey better then public radio wave whining JZ does who still lives by hippy dippy hope nonsense.

What a word salad of nonsense. There's plenty to revolt and swing at, and people are already doing it...animal liberation, hacking government computers, burning down new subdivisions, stopping pipelines, etc. These are not "phantom constructs".

And PK isn't "disassociating himself from civilization", he's just as mired in it as anyone else, even while living on a rural farm.

There also not the source of civilization. If you live by pure sustenance or are at least half way there to the point that your daily life is not dependent on a city societal structure you absolutely are disassociating from civilization or at least you are less connected to it.

The Seaweed land and freedom approach is basically on of the obvious ways of uncivilizing and disassociating.

"..don't give up like some pussy."

Cats and vaginas are tougher than all y'all, first of all.

It isn't giving up to see clearly that shit is fucked. The environmental damage already locked into global systems can't be ameliorated, probably the best we can do is not add to the problem.

We know how to do environmental remediation and we've done it in many cases ( e.g Lake Erie, also see: the ecological restoration work of John Todd, etc)

Sounds like you're just another one of those do-nothing pussies.

a pretty romantic (and laughably hyper-masculine) take on what jz is saying, what he's doing, what he would/could ever do if actually saying it, what others who think this is what he's saying would/could ever do.

how about maybe not decide on what others should be doing and... go chop some wood, son!

"we're not fucked yet" -- unless you are the typical binary thinker, that statement is absurd.

"make total destroy, burn it all down" -- YAAAAAAWWWNN yeah, nobody has tried that, great new and fresh idea!

"At least go down swinging, it's a lot more fun anyway." -- i guess as long as it is YOUR idea of "swinging", eh? every individual act has no meaning or individual value unless it does so for you, right?

i just love these little "warriors". the anarcho-equivalent of sjw.

Hey fuckwipe. What does "binary thinking" have to do with this? And please cite the time when we tried to make total destroy and burn it all down. I'll wait...

I just love these do-nothing cynical pussies. Change is too hard, so let's not do anything.

YOU are the problem.

Sexist word use is disgusting, like " pussies" completely labels you as low intelligence troll with a macho 80s terminology!

making any difference? Kingsnorth is merely reflecting the situation: that people are unwilling to give up their conveniences, even for their children. Kingsnorth may have believed that people would change when they had the knowledge but clearly that's not the case. JZ may want to be the one (of the few) who can claim they didn't give up! Not that JZ does anything other than say he hasn't given up. Kingsnorth could say he hasn't given up...would that change anything? No. It is interesting that some religious leader who is then deposed when people of his flock realise he is the emperor wearing no clothes; the same can be said of JZ. Don't get me wrong, JZ has written some interesting what? He doesn't practice what he preaches either, so, arguably, he is another emperor with no clothes.

JZ could have, at least, had guests on his show over the years, even start a podcast or a YouTube channel, to have discussions with mainstream influencers? He hasn't. He may have gotten loads of subscribers etc you never know. JZ has a lot of knowledge and is engaging (I've heard him being interviewed). It puzzles me why he didn't push his message more. Chomsky doesn't get invited on to mainstream media but he has managed to get his work out there and so have others.

Again, you're confusing individual lifestyle choices with an assessment and prediction of whether anything can be done. PK says nothing can be done. JZ says something can be done. What each is doing in their own personal lives is irrelevant on a grander scale, which is the level where things can be done..
Everyone knows that taking shorter showers or using CFL light bulbs or moving to a farm is not in and of itself going to save the planet. Collective large scale action is what got us into this mess, it's also what is going to get us out of it.

"Collective large scale action is what got us into this mess, it's also what is going to get us out of it."

^ this is why we can't have nice anarchy.

global! mass! human! solutions! everyone just _must_ get on board (or else)! the planet needs us! our technolo... no wait, that's bad! at least we're trying! humanity can fix humanity! just do as i say!

I thought we were trying to figure out how to do collective things without being forced? ;)

Or if you want to be left alone in a shack in the woods, I totally dig that too

This is Kingsnorth's point too, mass action (dare I say civilization) got us into this mess, it won't get us out.

*I* don't know what will, if anything, and no one else does either. Reading a list of all that is bad in the world one day a week on air surely is not it.

I mean … entirely ruling out the possibility that somebody some day might have a good idea seems a bit bleak tho?

The situation is bleak.
Everything is melting, burning, flooding, the rent's too high the food is no longer nutritious, the people in power want more more more. We're only arguing over furniture placement on the sinking ship of this glorious insanity. A lot of people had a good idea once, our civilization massacred and genocided them because we hate competition. We won by always already burning it all down.

I'm not afraid of ashes either Nettle but I don't see why that has to be part and parcel with - every good idea was genocided long ago. That's just an assertion, isn't it? Sounds pretty cool tho! Edgy as fuuuuck

what you don’t get is that this program is intended for children (as a lullaby) and jz is mister rogers

yeah nettle! is that what you want?! Mr. Rogers flinging his poop at the children in the audience and telling them they're fukin screwed?! Tears of despair is all the future holds?! Wait til they're at least 15 for that shit, huh?

Please don't disparage Mister Rogers like that.

People going off on their own and doing their own individual thing is exactly how capitalism/civilization keeps us isolated and helpless. That's also how the government picks people off one by one, or plays people off against each other. Divide, isolate, and conquer. Keep people frightened, keep them thinking that nothing can be done. If a few resist, they are easy to handle.

However, we all saw what happens when there are literally millions in the streets, like in Hong Kong 2019 or Paris '1968. The state starts to wobble.

But I guess it's just easier to be an edgelord pussy and run off to the woods and do dope.

send pics of wobble, or it didn't happen

may68 was just a televised maoist parades, and some people thinking they were clever cuz they thought they invented memes

curiously enough, hong kong 2019 had less maoists
unless all cops are maoists
and they are

so are you

the unamaoist


Can confirm. I'm such an edgelord that I'm a hippie. It's horseshoe theory for strugglebros.

"Collective large scale action is what got us into this mess, it's also what is going to get us out of it."

Exactly right.

Civilization was not a large scale collective action. Civilization developed over historical layers and layers over a long period of time. The exodus from it will take the same route via tapering off. Think of Nietzsche's idea of the overman being bridged toward by incremental human developments and improvements. You can think of the uncivilized subject in a similar way. The exodus from civilization will not be a historically registered revolution or event, it will be unregistered ahistorical and driven by unique disassociating individuals and dispersed events.

Totally correct! For ppl to think that civ is an immediate reality and that it can equally be wished away at the wave of a wand is incredibly naive and arrogant, in itself a wierd combination of pompous anthropocentric assumption which disregards the ingenuity of the unfettered creative individual.
At this very moment incremental solutions are creating zones of unrelenting autonomous liberations.

WRONG. Civilization only began after people settled into large communities with permanent dwellings and agriculture.
These settlements kept growing over long periods of history, as did the later tentacles of industrial extractive industries.

Most civilizations that have ever existed have collapsed. When they did, it wasn't because of any population dispersal by unique individuals disassociating themselves, it was because those civilizations collapsed in on themselves due to resource stress, climate change, external invasions by neighboring cultures, disease, natural catastrophes, etc.

People individually dropping out and going off the grid is not going to stop the encroachment of civilization, since it just keeps growing and expanding. We have to physically stop and fight it, not run away from it.

"We have to physically stop and fight it..."
yeah, because nobody has tried that before. let's form a mass army to physically fight the largest, most well-armed (in *every* way) collection of humanity that has ever existed. let me know how that goes for you.

When did we try that before on a mass scale?

I must have missed that in history class.

Civilization is not technology, and technology is not civilization. Civilization is composed of morals and ethics arranged and amassed over millenia, which creates multiple systems and mechanisms to increase pleasures and decrease pain for its participants. Pleasure and pain is a psychological manipulation of instinctual drives which is the direction that any revolt against technology should aim towards, to make it sustainable and not to label all technology as a corruption of humanity and Earth.

personally, i agree that there will be no mass consciousness rising resulting in large scale action, or that technology will get us out of this mess. as has been pointed out, those are the things that got us here. but i still believe in acting in alignment with my values regardless of the the final outcome. i believe in environmental harm reduction, rewilding and self-defense. doing these things makes sense to me ethically and spiritually and are where i find joy and love.

well said

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