TOTW: Health

  • Posted on: 9 January 2017
  • By: thecollective

It’s that time of the year again, when many in society are making new plans and resolutions for the coming year. While the anarchist may oft shun such silliness from society, some areas behind these ideas demand a closer examination. This TOTW is about anarchists relation to physical and mental health.

Do you have an anarchist approach to physical and/or mental health? Any specific related ideas to such thoughts? Who are your favorite anarchist or anarchist-friendly writers on the topic? What have they said that you found moving? How do you take care of yourself and your family / friends?

Is mental and physical exercise something you spend time on daily / weekly / monthly? Do you go to a gym or prefer the comforts of the outdoors and other spaces? What does your routine look like? Can you make any recommendations for beginners or the seasoned crafty veteran?

Mentally and physically taking care of oneself is often hard enough, but how do we care for those family and friends who are hurt or in long-term care? Can you share any anonymous experiences of having to deal with personal health or that of family and friends that may be able to shed some light on the situation and perhaps offer some advice for others in similar circumstances? What are some places to find physical and mental health support that are anarchist friendly?

How can we be better in these areas as anarchists? What would you like to see more / less of?



I don't like using anarchist this and anarchist that for designating a method or approach to problems. I'd rather call it "antiauthoritarian" or "autonomous", which hits home far better. The term "anarchist" has been hijacked by so many political and cultural tendencies that it can mean many contradictory things.

So I've been applying some level of autonomous healthcare for a long while, and yes it's quite possible to solve a broad range of issues of different levels of urgency... from treating painful bleeding wounds to curing nasty infections to just achieving a better nutritional balance.

My view is that I think it'd be great to start some written collaborative works on autonomous healthcare, maybe a website or forum or subreddit dedicated to it. Something that can also be used to publish on a somewhat regular basis on paper too, like some anarchist medical journal.

Not sure how or even if that would fly tho. But I look at the right-wing tools like Infowars and such, and they've been invested, and profiteering a lot in the natural health field... of course in a mostly snake oil way.

is a good way to describe what we do, what we signal to one another and how we can engage-in,
including Zones of distinction where our activities can connect as we expand into temporary or more lasting
abodes. Good health requires time and the right space. Yes, my wife and I go to the gym about 3 times per week.
There ,the elliptical machines gives the body a good overall work out and the right warm -up to proceed to weight lift in, oe stretching.
Also we hike, take long walks, or shorter "power" walks. The key is to get to the point of sweating and heart rate up.
This all takes time. And for working people, do as much of these as possible, with equipment at home.. When at home we mainly eat eggs and whole grain cereal. Eat lots of fresh fruit and
vegetables and lean meat/ fish 6-8 ounces/ day suffice. Little bread. No sweets, desserts, junk food .We do use protein bars or shakes.
Sounds expensive, but only going out for lunch/ dinner about 1 time per week keeps the overall cost down. The processed foods,
pizza, excessive booze is what really jacks up the expense. Food co-ops are good but can be expensive too. Splurge a little on holidays,etc. only. We need to be in shape for the upcoming e-ruptions. Evasive tactics are key. Rope -a- dope…. all-together now,
"and a one , and a two and a three…."The key is to > "Just Keep Movin'!

I'm a little troubled by the ultra-militant extreme binary that people seem to be setting up lately: You're either an ultra-hard kickboxing champion that can squat 500 pounds or you're a WAB talking about self-care and hiding under the covers. I think this reflects larger trends in american culture.

Self love is necessary cos ego is not a dirty-word nor is " Narcissist" a mortal insult. I take care of myself with a third of my income from welfare, a third from working the black-seam & a third from victimless crimes & crypto-coin-speculations. But I repeat myself...
Once self-love is firmly established you can stay reasonably healthy & maybe even set a good example!
Come the revolution I think we should use best practice welfare-state measures as our baseline, moving forward. This will be tricky, but , armed with the net, quite feasible imho.
Yrs for the anarchic revolution - pr

Raymond Cochrane, Ronald Laing, Thomas Szasz, Peter Breggin and others [Engels, Allende] have drawn attention to the social origins of mental (physical) disorders. It is rather obvious, but it has been largely overlooked in modern society; i.e. we are too busy looking for drugs and other treatments to deal with symptoms that we never get to the point of addressing source. We do this so that we can continue to function within the relational stresses of colonizer society even as they make us sick and bring on early disablement and death.

See, for example, "The Social Origins of Illness: A Neglected History" by Howard Waitzkin

”Although interest in the social origins of illness has grown recently, the sources of this concern in Marxist thought have received little attention. Friedrich Engels, Rudolf Virchow, and Salvador Allende made important early contributions to this field. Engels analyzed features of the workplace and environment that caused disability and early death for the British working class. Virchow's studies in "social medicine" and infectious diseases called for social change as a solution to medical problems. Allende traced poor health to class oppression, economic underdevelopment, and imperialism.

If you suffer from a ‘mental disorder’, it is NOT because your neurochemicals are out of balance [that is a symptom and not a source] It is because you live in a dysfunctional authoritarian society that envelopes you in a sustained stress field that inductively actualizes a diverse multiplicity of physical and mental imbalances/disorders. Western medical science offers us remedies that operate on the ‘symptoms’ rather than the source; i.e. pharmaceuticals that may be able to adjust your neuro-chemicals so that you can relax and enjoy ‘taking it up the arse’ in sweatshop labour and other situations.

As the frenetic pace of colonizer-whipped social dynamics intensifies, so, also, the use of anti-depressants, depressants, mood-shifters, anti-psychotics increases. In 2012 world consumption of symptom-softening pharmaceuticals was over $800 billion. In the US, the top 10 pharmaceutical sales totalled $161.5 billion and the top 3 were Novartis ($20.0 billion), Merck ($19.8 billion), Pfizer ($18.2 billion).

Those taking pharmaceuticals are exposed to a long list of illnesses, many of which are irreversible and some lead to very early death [all of them, taken continually, reduce life expectancy].

Street drugs offer an arguably more important source of degeneration of life experience and risk of premature death, and this usage is similarly induced by dysfunctional social dynamics.

Anarchist approach to mental-and-physical health should address, first and foremost, the social origins of illness.

I completely agree, and this comment is quite refreshing. However, it doesn't address the nuances of the prompt, which in part asks how to care. Pointing out the social origins of illness, in my experience, does little to alleviate the suffering of affected individuals. As an anarchist, challenges to the individualization of so-called mental illness (put forth by some of the writers you list) have helped me in a few concrete ways, but they haven't made the (very real) experience of distress okay. Recognizing that society is at fault doesn't make it okay, but it can help. Which ironically reminds me of the medical model for understanding so-called mental illness: It doesn't often make it okay, but it can, in fact, help. So, when it comes to the question of care, I firmly believe in a nuanced approach that recognizes the multitude of health strategies available, with neither end of the spectrum condemning or shaming the other.

Who you're replying to... the Emile troll? Realize he's just attempting to make a comment that looks legit on the surface, to Trojan-horse his way into making himself new disciples to his po-mo textwalls. Or maybe you were already within an authoritarian mindset of looking for a guru desperately, like a pedantic, patronizing, dominative mirror image of what you knew already.

why, you're the keenest girl in the whole wide school

so, then what were the other non-dualist's trojan horses throughout history?

oh, wait...the goal is a personal bone to pick that involves flattening experiences of others. fascistic constructs function similarly to your conspiratorial narrative: "Pretend like your enemy is incompetent and inferior, and yet also dangerous and powerful."

i came to non-dual realizations via other channels. there's many teachers along the way, yet no guru. not sorry to disappoint the divisiveness.

my thoughts and actions sometimes resonate with my 4 year old nephew. i guess this isn't relations unfolding as they are, but him trying to control me.

Nicotine will kill bacteria/virus, a Cuban cigar will kill a hippo, s all about moderation.

I think a lot of people who are against anarchism (or for authoritarianism) think that without an authority to provide health services, everybody would have terrible hygiene and the average lifespan of humans would return to what it was thousands of years ago. While it does depend what branch of anarchism you talk about, I don't think that would be true. There's ways you could keep your body and mind in good state. You and your family (or a group of people) could work individually on certain things. One person could work on providing something to keep your teeth clean, another could make sure you have soap or some alternative to keep your body clean. As for mental health, I think the solutions stay relatively the same. Take breaks, pace yourself. Health is not the opposite of anarchism.

And feminist-anarchists would need a freakin good abortionist huh?

I think that goes well with an anarchist system. You just have to de bourgeois it a bit. As emile points out there is a lot mental health medication that's a sham. See some Kelly Brogan videos on mental health science and the 'evidence' behind it. It really is a giant series of falsities.

1. This topic's gonna be a trainwreck and a half.

2. Health is a really really complicated subject which often has very serious immediate consequences if you fuck anything up. Doing it well, to anything like the standards we've all become accustomed, requires years of training and all kinds of specialized equipment. As such, it presents a challenge to anarchist ideas about social organization and complexity, specialization, authority etc. Instead of facing that challenge, sadly, most anarchists seem to have embraced a bunch of simplistic bullshit which doesn't threaten to pop our ideological bubbles. This problem is not unique to "health". It's visible in most anarchist theory relating to practical matters, but rarely are the consequences quite so severe.

3. The kinds of health "solutions" thrown around by anarchists and other radicals only tend to work in situations where the person in question is mostly healthy or the problem is largely subjective. Eating your veggies, getting enough exercise, meditating sometimes and using herbal remedies for mild colds, etc, will probably make you feel better than will drinking all night and having cigarettes for breakfast. That said, no amount of kale is gonna stitch up a gunshot wound, and no amount of yoga will cure cancer. Health nuts get sick all the time, and the flipside of all these simplistic "empowering" ideas is some really ugly judgemental moralism. If all you need to stop cancer is turmeric, then I guess all those poor saps who die from cancer must be pretty dumb, right? Why didn't they just eat more curry? Why didn't they think more positive thoughts? It's obviously their own fault.

4. It's not a coincidence that so many of these same ideas are shared by cryptofascists and religious fundamentalists, if not drawn directly from them.

5. As an anarchist who has a lot of experience with mental illness, anarchist approaches to mental illness scare the fuck out of me. Far too much of the "self care" and "support culture" stuff I've seen ended up being really, really toxic, narcissistic and unhealthy. People's mental health problems are not there for "the scene" to fix, and when it tries the usual result is gossip and drama, not help. Furthermore, ya get a real sense from a lot of the propaganda on the subject that people are being recruited on the promise that we can fix their problems, or that their problems will go away if we can just get rid of capitalism/patriarchy/civilization. Not only is this downright cruel, but (surprise!) it leads to recruiting mainly really damaged and unstable people who can't function in groups.

6. Understanding root causes doesn't make symptoms go away. On an intellectual level I understand that most of our worse infectious diseases come originally from animal husbandry. In an immediate practical sense, refusing to eat meat will not make me immune, nor make them go away. Understanding that uranium mines and bullets lead to cancer will not cure anyone afflicted, nor clean up the radioactive waste which threatens others. While it's important to look into this stuff and deal with it where possible, that's not a substitute for actual health care.

The only thing I will say is that anarchism and anarchy can be part of a tapering off process. One region and human sphere at a time. The allopathic stuff doesn't have to be eliminated completely, however, the ideology of alopathy has to go along with the crude civilized ideology that created it. Think of the controlled explosion analogy, one building at a time.

Anarchism is not meant for mass solutions.

"Anarchism is not meant for mass solutions."

that is one of the more concise and right on statements i have seen. obvious, to me; yet apparently not to most.

He often makes them. And to what you're saying: it's true, and perhaps obvious, in hindsight. In mass society, guiding masses is the work of governments & shepherds. Most people including anarchists have ideas on what the masses should be doing. But who will make the masses do it? Is shepherding anarchic? The memetic chimera that is the modern anarchist seems ever dreamful of being some sort of shepherd.

the concept of bottom-up construction, ... from atoms and genes which are purportedly animated by inside-outward generative agency, ... to come together and comprise things-in-themselves, is convenient 'economy of thought' to explain 'appearances'. it is illusion. there is no generative agency, there is only the epigenetic influence of 'field' which is inductively actualizing relational forms within a transforming relational continuum.

the violent agency of protestors, rebels, terrorists,bacteria, viruses is NOT internally generated but externally induced where internal and external (genetic and epigenetic) are a non-duality. as Nietzsche says, exosmosis and endosmosis are a non-duality in which endosmosis predominates and exosmosis is 'appearances', ... a symmetry which prevails in all of nature and makes no distinction beween 'organic' and 'inorganic'.

allopathy is based on 'appearances'. it is based on OUR ILLUSION. when people who we have been oppressing 'push back' and we see them coming at us, it is 'delusion' to impute the source of their 'push back' to generative agency [evil agency] within their own interiors. Their violent attacks derive from [are inductively actualized by] relational tensions in the common living space dynamic; e.g. tensions associated with imbalances that are, in the human/social realm, police and military enforcement maintained.

the violent push-back of oppressed people is INDUCTIVELY ACTUALIZED; i.e. it comes from epigenetic influence and NOT from genetic/generative agency.

allopathy is the delusion that arises when we ignore the innate primacy of epigenetic influence [aka 'field'] and semantically assign generative agency to the interiors of notional 'things-in-themselves'. in the relational world we live in there are no 'things-in-themselves'. in the physical reality of our actual experience, things [relational forms] are continually gathering and scattering, they are NOT things-in-themselves 'powered' by 'generative agency'. field is in an innate primacy over matter; i.e. epigenetic influence is in an innate primacy over genetic expression.

allopathic thinking is the delusion that the 'symptom' is the 'source', that the violently pushing-back rebels are animated by their own internal evil generative agency, .... whether these rebels are bacterium, viruses or street protestors.

as brogan says, indigenous and traditional cultures recognize strife as the necessary and meaningful struggle inherent in evolution. to attack the symptom as if it were its own source [coming from its own internal generative agency] is to stifle and suffocate natural evolution.

allopathy is an intellectual concept that confuses symptom for source, and seeks to eliminate the symptom without addressing the source. as you say, allopathy has to go, and with the suspension of belief in allopathy comes a restoring of balance-and-harmony orienting social dynamics.

what 'really' has to go is the belief that there really is 'generative agency' in the world. 'generative agency' is an illusion that comes from 'reading epigenetic influence induced actualization 'backwards''. the development and raging of the storm-cell is NOT coming from some generative agency in its notional 'interior'. there is no binary 'interior' and 'exterior' split, relational forms are NOT things-in-themselves, but like the storm-cell are inhabitant-habitat non-dualities. in other words, epigenetic influence inductively actualizes genetic expression. genetic expression is 'appearances', it is not fuelled by generative agency but by inductive actualization.

Sorry but your point 3 is gross trollbait loaded with the most ridiculous straw men and prejudice usually coming from people with very little knowledge of herbal and other alternative medicines, being so mind-shy about anything that's beyond anything FDA-approved (for as you know, FDA sure never disappoints! Just look at how effective they were at approving cures to cancer... eh!). You're throwing actually effective medicines as well as preventive consumption habits in the same basket the Prana cult hippies.

Do you know where pills come from!? They developed as dried and compressed extracts from herbal medicines, eventually mixed with solidifying non-medicinal agents.

5- I've seen way too many people being fucked up by pharmaceuticals to treat their socially-generated mental illnesses to accept another suspicious person standing in favor of those State-sanctioned solutions. The way the big pharma industry functions these days, how there's so little government oversight over R & D, how tons of doctors get bluntly bribed officiously to push this or that drug, it's just plain wrong to be prescribing and enforcing the taking of pills, when you haven't looked at all te alternatives. Of course, that ain't better when you got a bunch of actual dead-beats from the clique attempting to magically heal issues with "self care" BS that is nothing else than a philosophy lesson, at the end of the day. But even hippie shit like Reiki has been working for some issues, both on me and others. The wisdom is any medicine is to be understanding that one solutions has its limited range and intensity of effectiveness.

Electro-shock therapy used to be a "cure" for some mental illnesses for some barbaric doctors (if one assumes that burning down someone's brain is a cure in any way, but on the other hand, electro-therapy -that involves inducing some ultra-weak electric fluxes at select areas of the body instead of ultra-violent shocks straight to the nervous system- has worked wonders in healing kinds of several injuries and infections.

I've been using a primitive variant of it by applying fir sap to wounds -even somewhat severe ones- and it always did a marvelous job. It's also very powerful against abscesses and other gum problems, and is good for general teeth and gum health (American natives used it as "toothpaste", rubbing their teeth with it, though I personally prefer sea salt).

6. "Understanding root causes doesn't make symptoms go away." No, duh, but that's what made scientific research progress, and also what helps finding the proper treatment to any condition.
But fir sap doesn't work for other conditions, like skin infections, and may worsen especially those that thrive on sugars or acids like yeast infections. On the other hand, it'll kill of any nasty bacteria affecting you. Why? Combination of acidity and bioelectricity... fir resin can hold a positive electric charge of slightly above 20 mV, a charge apparently sufficient to restore the cells, nerves and blood vessels in any area of the body, acting as a bio-capacitor that recirculates the from a healthy to an infected/injured area, thus speeding the healing factor.

But if there are fluffies out there attempting to cure problems just by understanding the causes, they're either incompetent as healthcare helpers, or just fluff people who shouldn't be listened to. Though I've never seen anyone that dumb.

So the basics... there's no miracle cure for every condition. There's never been and prolly never will be. It's all relativism.

Particularly on the pharma side of things. As I said see Kelly Brogan.

Ok, this is pretty much exactly what I was talking about.

Let's start with the pine sap. As for the concept, I'm not sure I follow, or at least, I hope I don't. "Electrical flux" is a pretty complicated mathematical concept related to electrical fields. The kind of "flux" used in used on electronics, often made from pine sap, is basically a goop that's used when soldering to avoid making a mess. I've actually seen a guy homebrew it straight from the tree to fix a laptop. This can be mildly reactive/acidic/ionic, but it's not really going to give off a charge. If it did, you would never, ever, use it for soldering sensitive electronic components.

Assuming I'm missing something, tho, and this does work you're still a long way from anything that could seriously be called a "medicine". Sure, you used it a few times and it *seemed* to help, but have you really tested it? Do wounds treated with it actually heal faster than comparable wounds left untreated, or washed, or given bactine? How many times have you tested this? How about different body chemistries? Are some people allergic? What methods of preparation work? Which don't?

At the end of the day you're left with an interesting idea and something that *might* work as an option for situations that aren't all that serious. This is exactly what what's wrong with anarchist discussions about health care - people do some random crap like this then consider the matter resolved. Pine sap might work in a pinch for basic first-aid tasks like abrasions and toothaches, but it isn't gonna help deal with a complicated childbirth, cancer, congenital heart defect, etc., or really anything that's legitimately challenging from a medical point of view.

As for natural/alternative medicine, I'm not saying that they're all useless, but some of them clearly are and the lack of discernment among advocates doesn't speak well for their credibility. I'm all for exploring this stuff, but when I see the arguments in favour right next to some shady huckster hawking colloidal silver or homeopathy, I'm heading for the door. Being open to new and different ideas is great, but if you can't identify bad ones you're gonna get taken. Without a reliable means of distinguishing things that work from those that don't, one pretty much has to be skeptical of the whole lot when lives are on the line.

11:15, I'm afraid you might be a pretentious bigot. I don't recall having talked about pine saps, that are to fir sap what apples are compared to pears, probably. They look roughly similar, they are analog types of substances, but contain different chemical -and electro-chemical- properties, have different taste, etc.

Trees all have varying differences in chemical properties, and that's why they won't all be growing at the same spots, being depended on a mixture of composition of soil, daylight and weather conditions. But all trees are bioelectrical in nature, otherwise they simply wouldn't grow as they do, through a natural process of induction of the Earth's current.

Want to challenge me on that? I can grab my multimeter and post you pictures of the voltage I measured from both fir resin and of the tree itself, with one prong grounded and the other planted into the tree. A fluctuation of 1 mV is good enough to prove that there's some electrical activity going on... but here we're talking about 20-50 mV level of activity. Out of nearly no activity.

So what about the fir resin? Why is it accumulating in bubbles through the bark, all around the fir? Possibly to act as capacitance for healing injuries during the tree's growth, or to protect against environmental factors (hostile bacteria, fungi, cold, etc).

I have never experimented on pine sap, but that claim about its use in soldering is interesting.

You didn't mention pine saps, you used the term "electrical flux" and I asked whether that had something to do with the kind of "flux" used in electronics, which often made from pine sap. I'm aware that it may not be exactly the same as fir sap in an electrochemical sense, and I'm not trying to misquote you, just trying to figure out what you're actually talking about. As far as I can tell so far it involves using fir sap for some kind of on-wound battery chemistry in the hopes of generating enough current for electricity-healing. Maybe I'm missing something else but that seems to have a couple big holes....

a) Does this actually generate a current? Just because a fir tree will budge the needle on a grounded multimeter doesn't mean the sap generates a current if you slather it on an open wound. At best it suggests that there's some potential to use the sap for battery chemistry, but the same could be said of a potato. Additionally, there's some real questions raised about what chemical reactions in particular are taking place to generate that current, and what kind of by-products produced (electrochemistry produces some narsty toxic shit).

b) Does an electrical current actually help you heal? Kinda sounds like some really dubious electromedicine pseudosicence, but ok. What kind of current is needed? Voltage? Does fir sap really approximate that? Why not just use a battery? And how come in the century or more than a century since this concept came up have people not found any other verifiable means of treating people with it?

c) Even if a) and b) are true, is fir sap a particularly effective (or even safe) means of treating wounds? Are there other ways to do it? Would a potato work? What are the active chemicals and would you be better off extracting them? Is this any more effective than modern medicine, or soap and water, etc.?

Sorry but I don't buy it. Does that make me a pretentious bigot? I guess so. More importantly, it makes you the *victim* because some guy somewhere didn't uncritically accept your claims of a miracle cure. That's what's fucking wrong with these discussions, and that's why anarchist ideas about health care (or most practical matters) are a recipe for fucking disaster.

Starting with your dumb last paragraph, I wrote: "So the basics... there's no miracle cure for every condition. There's never been and prolly never will be. It's all relativism." I guess you missed that part, being on this overactive knee-jerk mode. Calm down, now... you seem to be taking too much sugar.

A) It doesn't generate a current, you dolt. I said it is acting as "natural capacitor". Do you want me to repeat again? it is acting as natural capacitor it is acting as natural capacitor it is acting as natural capacitor it is acting as natural capacitor it is acting as natural capacitor it is acting as natural capacitor it is acting as natural capacitor it is acting as natural capacitor it is acting as natural capacitor it is acting as natural capacitor it is acting as natural capacitor it is acting as natural capacitor it is acting as natural capacitor...

So, does a capacitor generate a current? No.

Can you get a current out of capacitors? Yes.

How that can be? Magic, duh! maybe your issue is just ignorance in the field of electricity.

B) Yes.

And again, you didn't read my post much for asking these questions. "Why not just use a battery?" Yeah why not... a big car battery dropped on your head might work to solve your attention deficit issue. Maybe.

C) You could be sarcastic here with the potato. If not, then no, it's definitely not something to do, as potatoes are usually carrying many toxins found in the ground. I neither think that the juice from a potato will hold the electrical charge as an intact potato would.

But even though water and soap are helping for wounds and infections in a way as to temporarily clean off filth and bacteria -which is way better than doing nothing- it will not speed healing in any sort of way.

What's the modern medicine for treating wounds... plasters? Alcohol wipes? Useful but not that efficient.

Oh my fuck bro. Maybe if you could clearly state what the fuck you're talking about, you wouldn't have to throw such large temper tantrums when people don't automatically get it? Regardless, battery or capacitor, all the same questions apply and you still haven't answered one.

a) Does your fir-sap have the electric properties you claim?
b) Do those properties actually help? If so, how many farads are we looking for? Couldn't the same thing be accomplished with $5 at radio shack?
c) is this actually any more effective than widely available alternatives and what kind of actual evidence do you have to show that?

Still waiting for answers.

First, you turn the time circuits on. This one tells you where you're going. This one tells you where you are. This one tells you where you were. You input your destination time on this keypad. Say you want to see the signing of the Declaration of Independence [Jul. 4, 1776] or witness the birth of Christ [Dec. 25, 0000]. Here's a red-letter date in the history of science: November 5, 1955. Yes! Of course! November 5, 1955! That was the day I invented time-travel. I remember it vividly. I was standing on the edge of my toilet hanging a clock, the porcelain was wet, I slipped, hit my head on the sink, and when I came to I had a revelation! A vision! A picture in my head! A picture of this! This is what makes time travel possible: the flux capacitor! It's taken me nearly thirty years and my entire family fortune to realize the vision of that day. My God, has it been that long? Things have certainly changed around here. I remember when this was all farmland as far as the eye could see! Old man Peabody owned all of this! He had this crazy idea about breeding pine trees….

He did it! Peabody coupled his pine flux capacitor to Reich's Orgone Fur Accumulator not to be confused with Fir, its hair fur, we are talking about, explains the furry feel his 20 billion pine planks have if sanded with 60 grit sand-paper. Just saying.

"Used as a cream or ointment for piles and root-canal sealers. Native Americans applied the resin externally to treat burns, sores, bruises, sore muscles, and wounds. The leaf tea used for colds, cough, and asthma. Helps rheumatism, inflammation of the bladder, sciatica, neuralgia, epilepsy, erysipelas, erythema, colic, swollen inguinal glands, jaundice, iritis, dropsy, lumbago, worms, typhoid fever, bronchitis."


Yeah but where's the magical electricity healing? Or, ya know, actual medical trials?

Shuddup, pig, I'm the one who asks questions.

Well then could you please ask this fuckin' goof to explain his magical fur-sap electricity paste?

I believe you mean fir-sap, the only thing magical and electrical about fur is static electrical arcing.

Sorry, when I see something this ridiculous I just kinda assume furries are involved somehow.

I feel sorry for you... Furries are the future.

But for a tiny bit of seriousness, maybe you should pay more attention to what people are writing? I guess the comments you're so badly straw-manning were very clear that there was no such magic or miracle involved.

Or are you another of these skeptic maniacs who think black holes shouldn't exist because everything MUST submitted to the laws of thermodynamics!?

Sorry dude, but I did pay attention. There's literally nothing in them to suggest this dude (you?) has a workable solution and loads to suggest that he's full of it. Dude refuses to answer basic questions and instead throws around a pile of accusations ("prejudiced bigot" etc). Granted, I coulda been nicer. But ya know what's worse than being mocked for having stupid ideas about health care? Watching those ideas fail, close up, with someone you care about. Health is not a hippie fashion show - if you wanna show how creative and different you are, there's plenty of other avenues that don't involve risking people's lives. People who run their mouth about this shit should be mocked, and should feel bad. No apologies.

Random other poster here, you're official too smart for this thread. My sympathies for your frustration.

Now wait a minute... From where do you think precolombian natives took their likely-flawed yet functional medicine from? Abstract theories and calculations?

If Habermas did one good thing, it's to expose the analytical mindset of the logical positivist philosophy of science -that derives research process out of abstraction instead of the concrete experimentation- which became predominant in the 19th-20th century as a major hinderance, not a facilitator, to the development of knowledge on nature, up against a more synthetical epistemological approach like empiricism.

In this poor philosophy, if a phenomena or observation appears to be contradicting established laws of science and cannot be artificially reproduced through established parameters of study (like the required farad measurements for... making fir sap do what it already does) then it considered erroneous or pseudo-scientific. Same issue with how many scientists have been struggling with the recent "EM drive" prototypes... where some have went on claiming that such device is impossible, even if it's been showing groungbreaking results in the tests.

Having a problem with reality is an issue too, you know...

This is manifest of a post-truth mindset. Where the abstract rules are allowed negate any observed fact or phenomena. Very Spanish Inquisition-like.

And btw... Chaga mushrooms (the black mushroom that grow on any old white birch trees, used combination of the white powder from the bark) have been recently the object of academic research which proved they were surprisingly efficient against several types of cancer, including AIDS, as well as boosting longevity and the immune system. I'm looking forward going to get some in a forest.

"Chaga mushrooms ... have been recently the object of academic research which proved they were surprisingly efficient against several types of cancer, including AIDS,"

aids is not a type of cancer, just fyi. many folks that develop aids wind up with various types of cancer,but that is not the same thing.

but in general, there are definitely many mushrooms that have extraordinary healing attributes. they are on of nature's best filtration/cleansing systems.

Well that was just a syntax error... I know AIDS is not a cancer. Yet still it's one of the conditions that chaga 'rooms can cure, when taken in combination with the white stuff on the birch bark, as so it seems those two components have an intricate symbiotic relationship on the tree, which is maintained when combined for consumption. Anyone affected by HIV should be looking into this.. especially given how it can be cost-free solution if you live not too far from northern forests with old enough white birch trees.

Can you name a single fucking person who's had their HIV disappear through use of these mushrooms? "Solution" and "cure" are big words, and HIV is a really, really serious condition. If infected people opt to forego their meds for some forest mushroom and you're not 100% right about it they're gonna die and possibly infect others as well.

A lotta fucking things "show promise" in early stage medical research. 99% never really go anywhere.

HIV is a really, really nothing based spook. At most it is a harmless microvesicle biomarker of pathology. When you are talking about disappearing I presume you mean coming up completely negative on Gallo's unspecific sensitivity test. That's not what is ultimately important. What is important-and what chaga mushrooms may play a positive role in doing-is reboosting and balancing morphostasis. Once that happens people aren't gonna die. There's also no such thing as hiv infection for the obvious reason that there is no purified isolated culture of hiv or any virus for that matter clear on back to Tobacco Mosaic. There are only toxic based infections that appear to be virus infections but are simply a marked process. There's also no such thing as an immune system either(again see morphostasis by Jamie Cunliffe)

To save everyone the trouble, ziggy will sound off on this moonbat nonsense until you get sick of bothering. Save your fingertips unless you're excruciatingly bored.

Thank you for saving me the trouble, galant anon. If only you were here in person to avert my eyes, sweep me off my feet, and drive a lance into the heart of this screen.

Ok, knock yourself out. I've only watched him do it for years … the comment threads stretch to the horizon but hey, I must be white knighting because I'd rather you didn't feed the trolls or ziggy's inane little crusades?

Thank you for policing the forum, officer. How long you been on this beat? Without your constant rejoinders of "Mustn't read this!" I'd surely have succumbed to the corrupting influences of the alt-right long ago. You deserve a promotion, in my book.

"Constant rejoinders"? Are you just muddling up your anons or something? I don't spend anywhere near enough time here, not to mention I said the exact opposite, read whatever stupid bullshit seems worthy to you.

Have a common consequence for the cause fallacy(reason's intrinsic corruption as Nietzsche would say).

To you're last point there's the myth of the anti-bacterial resistant germ. When you look a little deeper you will find that there is a commensalist relationship to be found if terrain is balanced properly. In the following video at minute 21 Brogan mentions the commensalist nature c.difficile when the anti-germ hospitals are taken out of the equation:

There's also this video of a harrowing story which shows the allopathic failures around antibiotic 'resistant' infections

Is a good way to look at it. Cunliffe has been trying to get this into journals since the early 80s to not much avail for the most part(see his rejected letters). He's gotten into a grand total of 2, the biggest one being the Scandinavian Journal of Immunology. He's also forced to use very conservative arcane scientific language. He can't just go in an say morphostasis and morphostatic system instead of immunity and immune system. He has to be subtle about it. If you read enough of these papers you realize that science does not take well to dialectical disobedience. Idiolectical language is not encouraged. You really do see how science moves at it's own snail's pace much like the priestly Xian epoch that preceded it. Sure heretics don't get killed anymore but they also don't get published and face modern forms of career banishment but for a few open minded corners were even there they must play by arcane rules of language.

I always laugh at people who say science is this place where you can just challenge consensus, no, it doesn't work like that especially when institutions with names like Pasteur and Koch have been built. The Feyerabendian way is FAR from being encouraged. It's not like those dynamic dialectical schools of Buddhism where an upstart individual can come in and dethrone the old master. There would be no permanent institutions if we practiced a more Feyerabendian-Nietzschean anarchic gay science.

"No permanent institutions" = "No State". Sounds like a good plan to try!

"Sure heretics don't get killed anymore but they also don't get published and face modern forms of career banishment but for a few open minded corners were even there they must play by arcane rules of language."

They've found a way (basically, democracy and its herd mentality) so that executions are no longer necessary. Usually not. Character assassinations are indeed more efficient.

I dunno personally HIV-infected people because in my area it is a factor or social exclusion, or at least a perceived one, so it is pretty much a taboo subject. But ever heard of web search engines? A magical combination of search criterias can get you to several scientific reports on the subject. Go ask your local librarian for guidance.

"A lotta fucking things "show promise" in early stage medical research. 99% never really go anywhere"

Your ant brain fails to take into account the vast capitalist interests that are driving and CONTROLLING today's scientific research, making academic breakthroughs "unprofitable" in the medical world of pharmaceuticals.

Hence why Becker & Selden's groundbreaking research on electro-therapy under the Veterans Health Administration in the '70s never went further than clinical research level, NOT because it was not efficient . The technique they developed had near-miraculous levels of efficiency.

Ahh yes, its all a conspiracy. Right. Big pharma is suppressing the research. Sure. Definitely not a convenient excuse for your total lack of supporting evidence. Nor is it a reassuring fairy-tale that helps you pretend health care is really dead-simple. FFS.

Answer me this, tho: why do all the governments who maintain public health care systems play along? They have their own hospitals, universities and researchers, not to mention jails and intelligence agents. Why opt to spend billions on fake therapies instead of just arresting executives and making magical electricity medicine free to all?

I guess you're getting quite entertaining. On a same level than distinct to be watching Trump's crazy press conference.

So yeah, I guess capitalism too is a conspiracy theory by now... That the scientific world is really just a buncha honest, fully-impartial and disinterested scientists who make the Hippocratic Oath into a death pact for any new graduate, and that, like, benevolently devote their entire lives to the quest of Knowledge.

Bring on the tin foil the Marxians are coming!

Cling-wrap would keep the germs out though, maybe.

"Why opt to spend billions on fake therapies instead of just arresting executives and making magical electricity medicine free to all?"

Because, you dupe, this is called pipeline investments, used to generate several times, if not dozens of times in net profits on the way back to the shareholders pockets (mainly those owning the "pipeline" scheme), and allows for complete tax evasion and most of government regulations. But that's just one of the main schemes.

Because if you wanna have a massively profitable system you need an equally massive apparatus of industrial research and production involving millions of employees, and tighten the holdings in the hands of the so-called 1%, who own most of the industry, properties and its profits in the US.

Nice use of buzzwords, bro. "Pipeline investments"...yes! That totally explains it! So the drug companies give back all the money the Canadian or British governments pay them for medicine "several times, if not dozens of times" in exchange for keeping their secret? Care to point out where that exists on a balance sheet? I mean, since all government finances are public, and all these companies file financial statements, it shouldn't be hard to track tens of billions of dollars for a financial whiz like you...

Government finances come from the public, but the issuers of money/credit are private. US, British or Canadian governments have no say on the policies of their central banks, it's rather the opposite.

So basically even the government funding is a form of indirect private investment, that even random people can have shares into (ever heard of government bonds?).

Just stick to simple hill-billy food minus the moonshine and only listen to hill-billy music and you'll all be fine and healthy, but do avoid the come-ons from your first cousins, then the future generations will have sound genetics to see them into the future.

If you don't eat right all the exercise and medicine in the world won't help. Decolonize your diet! Gluten free and vegan against the empire.

Man... you're basically telling me to stop eating spaghetti, pizza and that delicious plethora of indian meals that always give me a boner. I mean fuck off, platonic fanatic!

No, eat whatever you want, but stop telling me vegan diets are the rev.

If you want to keep destroying your brain and body like everyone else, I guess that's between you and capitalism.
They aren't "the rev" you idiot. What does that even mean to you? Is it something you think you can achieve in poor health?

Meat is very good for brain development and neural regeneration. Assuming it ain't the toxic waste usually sold as meat in North American supermarkets. Oily fish especially is top-notch. There's little ways to get such a high intake of amino acids and lipids in veganism, unless you eat a lot of lentils and of course quinoa.

There's a tribe in the Congo who live solely on plantains and bird's eggs. Almost vegan.

Okay. Is there any reason I should be trying to imitate them? Have they accomplished anything of note? Other than eating plantains and eggs.

accomplish? how about a healthy and joyous life? what the fuck kind of accomplishment are you looking for? academic? financial? jeez....

A luxury condo, expensive paleo-diet, a BMW, occasional holidays in posh resorts, elite golf club card, and a chick grabbed at the gym/yoga club, be-atch.

Capitalist pipedreams never end.

They don't partake in war, don't pollute the environement, live a carefree and stress free lifestyle which has no wage slavery etc etc,,,,shall I continue?

You witnessed this through a documentary of some sort?

A person I met, an amateur anthropologist lived with them. He told me that the rainforest is in fact very scarce in ground dwelling mammalian sources of meat, and that the avian order dominates. .

So I should live as though I'm in a rainforest? While on the plains surrounded by beef cattle.

If you are clever, which your line of questioning indicates that you are not, and if you have mastered the power of mind over matter, you could live as if you were Alan Quartermain being carried on a litter across the Serengeti Plain while actually commuting on a train in Manhattan surrounded by office workers, but you seem to me to be an unimaginative philistine, but that's just my opinion.

kill the ranchers, set the cattle free, take a couple for yourself

"Bird's eggs" is definitely NOT vegan, but vegetarian, you ignoramus. Avian eggs are in fact the most complete form of animal food there is. There's no need to eat meat when you got 1-2 naturally-produced, organic eggs every day.

Hey they pick the unfertilized eggs which haven't hatched, so technically they are not even taking life and ARE therefore vegans. Eggs and cheese are the culinary foundations to glorious quiches.

um, no. not eating meat = vegetarian. not eating any animal products = vegan. pretty simple.

Seconding other poster. Vegetarianism includes consumption of animal products (i.e. produced by animal biological processes) and some vegetarians even eat sea food or insects, even if that ain't really consistent.

OK one learns something everyday, but really, I'm way too much a dilettante to introduce ethics into the sensual aesthetics of eating food..

how nice for you.

I went on a hunger strike once and I KNOW hunger, I mean humble simple unprocessed foods one creates oneself, not some privileged yuppie caviar and partridges in aspic, or fillet steak with truffle sauce. We are what we eat, every cell in our bodies is built out of the molecules digested by natural enzymes, out whole immunity system is dependent on the building blocks which only organic sun matured vegetable matter can provide. The junk fast food industry is symptomatic of the toxic capitalist ideological pursuit of instant unaesthetic fulfillment of desires minus the social experience of food preparation and hunting/gathering.bartering. So you needn't sound so condescending, I'm sure I could cook a healthier meal for the body and mind than you could and for a fraction of the cost..,

Me too, man. Those lemonade detoxes I do are like hell. First worlders aren't really gonna get it till they've had to starve or do a 48-hour weekend cleanse.

Also the fasts and cleanses make one realize how gluttony and sloth have,,,,,wait,,,I said earlier that I don't apply ethics to the consumption of food, but when it comes to affluent surplus being over-indulged in, and the load obesity places upon the health services, I actually approach the problem from the perspective of aesthetics and balance, a social and personal equilibrium in ones consumption, which the consumer society has lost. I find the models on the catwalk appallingly vacant and lacking in aesthetic beauty because I suspect fashion and narcissism intentionally mock the have-nots, i.e. if you are wealthy you can starve and be healthy and content, a slap in the face to all the fat peasants made to eat cheap fattening fast foods in the ghettos of capitalism. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, is that the immunity system or the psyche, are they not the same thing? Does a healthy body really have a healthy mind leading it, to endlessly chase after balls or world records, or does a complete mind leave us dying in the gutter, because the truth was fatal, and the stars in the cosmos are always at their zenith if seen from the depths of despair?

Yeah. I've done about three fasts. So I REALLY know hunger. I mean you have one under your belt but that's really just the beginning. The whole "I can't afford to eat thing" is honesty just lazy first world sedentisim. Even in the inner city you can forage in parks and medians for dandelions. People just want excuses. Actually just the other day I was leaving the grocery store and there was a stand of them in the parking lot. Popped a few in my mouth and felt totally satisfied for like three hours. Even the drought/famine stuff is frankly bullshit because you can always grow more food if you actually had any plant communication skills, but most drought sufferers are generally over civilized pastoralists anyway. Most people are too food addicted to attempt 1/10 of what I do.

I'm gonna breed mice for bite sized snacks in front of the TV

The town councils spray dandelion with this herbicide which they say really gets you high,,,,,then kills you.

"Most people are too food addicted to attempt 1/10 of what I do."

oooohhh.... ahhhhh..... you are SOOOOOOOOO rad!!!! not even 1/10!!???!!!

"...out whole immunity system is dependent on..."

you obviously missed ziggy's definitive proclamation that there is no such thing as an immune system.

Is not entirely wrong as this guy makes clear

Run three meals a day and eat proper exercise. Stretch vitamins before minerals & make three hours of vegetables every night. Avoid red light, tobacco salt & sugar indoors. Follow these simple tricks and you'll be on a path toward health loss improvements at any age.

Does it mean I should cut on dumpstering jogging every morning? Or eat in a squat?

There is always evidence for new thought above basement rooms but the best way is to read documents for proof. The stomach is only for listening! Friendship of the organ below is the speech of birds. Because the cats also have this happy growl often surprises. The dumpster can be empty or full. Squat on to relieve the pressure.

discussions on health that explore foundationall concepts such as 'allopathy', 'the immune system' and the root source of mental disorders, and that suggest alternative interpretations would seem to be part of an ongoing process of social transformation.

my comments are serious comments coming from a lot of investigative work and reflection on these topics.

i really don't understand why they are singled out for removal from the thread and given deprecating labels by thecollective: for example;

"thecollective: from emile on health because he can't seem to stop"

"thecollective: comment from emile health because he doesn't give a shit"

"thecollective: from emile health in a war against all"

Does thecollective not feel any need, when 'mocking' a participant's comments, for offering an explanation for its actions? Or does it feel that if a majority would applaud its actions, this gives it its mandate with nothing more being needed?

your ongoing criticisms are repetitious and you tend to ignore serious critique.

"your ongoing criticisms are repetitious and you tend to ignore serious critique."

1. how many anonymous posters might fit into that category? those who register are therefore discriminated against and held to higher standard?

2. i always address serious critique.

3. repetition of non-orthodox terms does not imply repetition of context.

4. is that your justification for using editorial power to mock serious comments or are you not big enough to concede any error?

such. otherwise you should assume it's one of the other folks frustrated with you.

break over, you may now continue whining.

more fob-off by thecollective, ... still no acknowledgement nor justification given by thecollective of putting mocking titles into comments removed from the thread and placed elsewhere under those mocking titles by thecollective.

my critique is honest and factual. thecollective's further use of the term 'whining' seems to be a ploy rising in popularity in the Trump era where those who have control of the microphone, simply fob off those that place legitimate requests for answers by accusing them of 'faking issues that don't exist', and if they complain about such treatment, calling them 'whiners'.

emile, as one member of the collective i'm honestly beginning to wonder if you have memory problems. this would explain a lot.
if you want your post titles not to be played with, then put your posts in forums yourself. as has been suggested multiple times before (as has been, also, the explanation for why your posts get moved).

i get bored by over and over again moving your posts for you. so i will tease/mock. you have at least two ways to avoid this. i don't take responsibility for you refusing either of them.

Yeah. He has only 2 settings: arrogant pedantic OR crying about how everyone is sick of his shit

The suggestion that those being ‘put down’ who won’t stay down “have a memory problem” embodies an acceptance of absolute authority as captured in a line from Cool Hand Luke

What sort of discussion environment allows alternative modes of understanding [regardless of author identity] to have a chance to be fairly heard and understood/assimilated? Certainly not ‘peer reviews’ rubber-stamped by an overall editorial authority.

Kropotkin’s ‘mutual aid’ has not yet replaced ‘the rewarding of good and punishing of bad’ [Darwinian evolution] as a mode of deepening understanding.

Evidently, some people, particularly those given control over others, feel they have an innate ability to make such judgements of what is ‘good’ and ‘what ‘bad’ and thus save the rest from having to scroll through the chaff to get to the wheat. Peer reviews are a supportive tool to make entrenched authority appear ‘democratic’ and thus perpetuate entrenched bias/orthodoxy.

1. Identify sources of stress & anxiety and try to eliminate them. Easier said than done. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices to do this. Or, learn the hard way as your body cries out in some form. Beyond the external pressures one has to contend with, there are also the internal ones. Such as addiction to certain neurochemicals or mental states. You may find that you're addicted to certain forms of stress/anxiety. Cortisol, and whatever other chemicals we produce under stress, I think these wreak havoc upon us.

2. Regain and/or foster the sensitivity of your senses, this will aid in protecting yourself from chemical, biological, and memetic toxins too numerous to list.

3. Fasting or straight-edging. Sometimes it needn't even be for very long before one gains an insight into how we are affected by the things we regularly consume. That alone will begin to change one's relationship with the consumable, either food, drug or media. For example, caffeine is an incredibly normalized yet very powerful drug. I believe it is often misused as a type of synthetic optimism. Seeing it as such helps explain why it plays such a big role in our current culture & society. Playing with your consumption of it will help you understand its influence. You might end up dropping it totally or simply changing the way you use it. I offer similar advice for alcohol. It can actually be a powerful psychadelic tool for insight, yet it is rarely used in this way. And if consumed too much or without intention, like any drug, it loses its utility and becomes an addiction, crutch or band-aid.

All I mention is self-knowledge sort of stuff. Intuition & mind I think are the best form of immunity & preventative care. I think it's the best place to start in terms of advice-giving, rather then the endless lists of specific foods or compounds one could try to write down.

As for relating any of this to anarchy: Self awareness & intuition can help one to see the more subtle ways in which they are expected to conform within a society. The differences between an individual's will, desire, & pace, juxtaposed against social & cultural obligations, may become more noticeable. Perhaps to some it may sound like I'm advocating a form of selfishness, but this path actually leads to the opposite—the potential to find genuine desire to aid others rather than an imposed/obligational form of duty.

i like where i think you are going with your comment, but like nietzsche, i think that 'will' is 'just a word' so that when you suggest that 'individual will' should have priority over social and cultural obligations, ... perhaps you are intending the same as nietzsche, which is that epigenetic influence should be kept in its natural primacy over genetic expression, ... or in other words, intuition should be kept in its natural primacy over reason.

Emerson also says that "the tool [reason] has run away with the workman, the human with the divine [spiritual].

nature calls to us, the cows call out to be milked. "to every thing there is a season and a time to every purpose". in other words, we are included in an unfolding-in-the-now relational dynamic or epigenetic influence that inductively actualizes genetic expression that we semantically capture in terms of 'things-in-themselves' and 'what things-in-themselves do'.

"I milked the cows at 7:00 a.m. because that is what they pay me for"

This is a calculated reasoning that can refer to what we call 'will'; i.e.

"I am an intelligent independent being with free will who chooses to get up early and milk the cows to earn my living and support my independent life style"

"der Wille zur Mach", on the other hand, is the will for union with the unfolding relational world [let me become one with everything], the epigenetic animating influence that one can embrace with 'amor fati'.

reason as the basis for a kind of 'synthetic will', eclipses and occludes the epigenetic influence of the physical reality of our actual experience of inclusion in the relational dynamic we call 'Nature'. REASON CAN PUT US INTO A SEMANTICALLY CONSTRUCTED REALITY, REMOVING US FROM THE PHYSICAL REALITY OF OUR NATURAL EXPERIENCE. These 'semantic realities' are logic-based and thus inherently subjective and incomplete.

If I am not mistaken, your recommendation is that we keep intuition in its natural precedence over reason, and I agree with you, as this allows us to attune to the relational dynamics that we are included in, rather than robotically following the directives of social and cultural reasoning which remove us, psychologically, from the physical reality of our actual relational experience and drop us into a socially and culturally constructed 'semantic reality'.

in this subjective and incomplete semantic reality, instead of being animated by the unfolding-in-the-now relational dynamic in which we are uniquely, situationally included, we listen to 'a voice in our head' that is continually calculating stuff and issuing directives that we feel obliged to follow.

I think we're on the same page. I use intuition to describe a feeling of comfort or discomfort a person may have in a given scenario. It is a form of instinct. Often a person has to suppress or ignore it in order to keep pace with the world, to fit in, or to complete certain tasks. It is partly informed by genetic wisdom. For example, if a person walks next to a cliff, they may feel nervous, but they did not need to be taught to be nervous in such a scenario. I think the human is constantly having these sorts of terror responses, navigating the modern world and all of its alien-ness. Our evolution did not prepare us for it.

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