TOTW: Students

  • Posted on: 18 March 2018
  • By: thecollective

Last week across the USA students walked out of their classes in protest of gun violence. While the demonstrations were largely aimed toward political reform outside of the anarchist idea, being a student is something many anarchists are familiar with. This week we’re taking a look at the students!

What has been your experience as a student or your thoughts on student life? What are your experiences and takeaways about organizing at the secondary and collegiate levels within educational institutions? Walk outs, strikes, occupations, clubs, papers, and student groups? How do we keep the conversation anarchist-orientated and the momentum rolling when everything else about being a student pushes against these ideas? How do we design anarchist material specifically directed towards the student? Or what are your favorite txts aimed at students, student publications or current / former student groups?

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Comments

I essentially view this as an untapped radical insurgent resource(the adult student thing was tried and failed). In general the only believable general solvent against the current order of things would be a radical juvenile breakaway from educational conditioning. You don’t have the problems you get with workers(scabs hiring one half to deal with the other the agency asymmetry etc) If an order loses its conditioned minds it’s fucked, no other way around it. It’s one of THE modes of affection that should be pursued this century from an anarchic insurgent desire, I think this is essentially one of the things Stirnerian discourse leads to as he was always a radical against education. The refusal of education is the realization of learning.

Back on the old defunct anti-politics board there was a poster named wild youth who put out a decent piece of writing on this subject. There were also some fair criticisms from fake Makhno on the creeping vanguard problem which would be a very important concern.

Anyway, fuck and disown education.

with finding an excuse to get out of school, the leaders got a nice pat on the back from social media, supplemented with the appropriate villains from the right for comfort and humiliation. Genius. Maybe an advantage of the left is that children will start to learn about how stupid political activism is from earlier on.

Been already happening... and all it's doing is to perpetuate the wheel. The children tend to go on the opposite curve, becoming right-wing douchebags and douchechicks, so the wheel of political Eternal Return keeps turning 'round! What Leftists should do more: stop having children, idiots. So the children of hypocrite conservative families get to al become gay lefties or maybe even anarchos, so maybe in 10-15 years we'll be living a '70s utopia full of pederasty that SE can enjoy.

Given my aspie awkwardness I would not no the first thing about how to have ANY qualitative relationship with a minor let alone a sexual one. There’s also me not having the preference or orientation and all that.

This theory simply does not hold up. I've met tons of @s that are the children of communists, activists, anarchists, travelers, squatters, etc. probably a fair few more than i know who have parents explicitly on the right.

Meh... British high-profile Lefties are all the same, especially when workign for the Guardian. I'm def sure even Russell Brand is way more authentic than any of those White privilege liberal Lefties whic got rich parents hiding in their closets. The stardom aspect of liking Brand is problematic, but still the dude has no qualms in openly displaying how he's living the reality of his world, from the "top of the pyramid". In such a world of fake, the best way to be an opposition is to be the Joker.

There must be no persons over the age of 21 having anything to do with instructing children in the art of survival. The places of instruction shall not be permanent structures but nomadic groups attending regionally relevant sites for permaculture, implement and shelter construction, food preparation, martial arts and gymnastic dancing, music writing, sexual advice alphabet and literacy. I know this will be deleted, I suspect because some of the collective are leftist teachers,.,

Hmm... This topic turned in to a shit-sundae. Ziggy FTW!

Lol at the suggestion that radical student movements have "been tried and failed." Compared to what exactly?

To the Nihilist: when I was young, I was exposed to more radical ideas through milquetoast liberal activism. This tendency is too large to ignore if you're trying to analyze the world and not just position yourself as more clever than everyone.

NOW EVERYBODY EAT YOUR SUNDAE!!!

All smart kids know that sundaes make you more dumber,.,

The 20th century was the century of adult radical students, the non manifestation of insurrection and anarchy speaks to what stockholmed adult students are capable of. When you are talking about under 18s there might actually still be time. We are talking about learned compulsion here, IF there can be a radical body of students that refuses and disowns the compulsory learned process that would be a MAJOR event in human history that could perhaps stall learned leviathan for a little while. It could be in a local part of the world it could be global(doubt it) but a stalling affect would be a nice gift for those who are acivil.

One of the MANY problematic assumptions here appears to be a myopic focus on canada and the US but even if that's the case, there's still examples that prove you wrong.

Guess it doesn't matter because you're just setting yourself up to build castles in the air with your delusional theories of reform, like always ... And FFS I'm not asking you to elaborate further. IM NEVER ASKING THAT.

That actually threatened to bring about anarchy lawlessness and selfhood. I'm not trying to hear state perceived threat assessments, give me something tangible. NA and Europe was as raunchy as it got and it never really threatened the order of things like, say, a prole shutdown could. The problem with proles of course is that one half can be hired to kill the other half due to differences of desires. With compulsory students the agency and the desire meet up right away. You also can't just replace a lost compulsified mind.

Also, how in fuck is my idea reformist, do you not comprehend what would happen if a given order of things lost control of its minors? That's full on Stirnerian insurgent anarchy which is to no longer be controlled.

Sigh ... You seem to be claiming that some sort of mass educational model or the absence of one... Or whatever, would somehow radically alter society because people would all think differently. This would be reforming the existing society with a different educational model, as opposed to destroying it or disconnecting from it. You seem to deal exclusively in thought experiments without any need for how implementation would even work.

I'm really reaching to try and make sense of your rambling and hand-waving ... Plus it's boring!

Nothing more nothing less, that would be novel event. There is nothing reformist about ending education, it's one of those crazy impossiblistic positions. Of course I'm talking about destroying it(haven't you been paying attention). My argument is that if you lose minds of pre-adult students you have potentially lost society. This has the same potent shut down power(albeit over a grandparent period of time and not immediately) as the prole thing without the agency asymmetry as you get with,say,Dupont's idea of vital prole work refusal.

So ... The next obvious question is how you would do that. Blah blah blah, stirner.

Well it's got the same complicated dynamics as workers ending work so you would approach it in similar manner congruent to anarchist anarchic related discourse. The payoff if it were to happen would basically end the world of work as you need successfully indoctrinated youth for that to continue.

I'm a worker interested in ending work because work is shit. That's such a stupid and obvious statement that I usually don't bother saying it.

without also ending education. You have to cut the cord of indoctrination which lubes an individual for work.

LMAO !! Education is not tied to work, and you don't have to end education when you end work. Many retired people often continue life long education, and hunter gatherers are educated without ending up 'working' in the Western industrial sense.

If you look at the adult element of education there is still the carrot and stick element of production. Retired people also continue working albeit they tend to opt for preferential discretionary labor. Work and Education both have discretional preferential voluntary options but the UNDERLYING power dynamic of both is societal force.

What do you think people were doing before industrial employment? Were they not being educated? Parents were not teraching their kids anything?

What an idiot.

"The children of savages do poorly in school." This is because normal humans ("savages") DON'T HAVE school. Or even much deliberate instruction. Kids are curious, watch, ask questions, try stuff out. And their (self) development is HIGHLY precocious by the debased (and worsening) standards of "advanced, developed countries". If this could be called "education", it would have to be called self-education.

has had constant street battles with students fighting the state goons. And I know all of them aren't but some are anarchists.

Sure, though many of them also contribute to other, more resilient anarchist praxis in daily life. They open and maintain squats, do collective looting, etc. I couldn't say the same of the anarchists in some other student movements. Anarchy isn't just streetfighting... if that's your only line of struggle then get ready to have your anarchy crushed under the weight of daily life.

That learning process you describe does exist at this very moment in isolated pockets on the frontiers of underdeveloped regions near wildernesses. These small enclaves develop into small societies without the Western burn out culture and depression. Yes, it is the only way to stall the march of leviating,.,

* Leviathan *

Anything else is an extra cake layer and icing. I don't actually think that my impossiblistic vision will actually happen, however, it you want some type of society stalling solvent that's the best scenario that I can think of.

Yeah. By the way, I'm amazed at the folk here who have no understanding of the formative stages in infantile developement and of how values and emotional- psychological equilibrium is gained. The present data indicates the total failure of the present system of youth detention aka schooling, and of its stunting effect and absence of instruction in critical theory and creative expression.,.

Dreaming about the impossibility of children who would do all the work of spontaneously deprogramming themselves! What a weird pass time!

That's the thing, what I'm talking about is a dynamic neotonous model of behavior that adults children and adolescents engage in. There would be a lead taken by the children in putting a stop to this order but at some point they would need elder guides(most likely grandparent types who are more divorced from the productive process) for some extra emotional and intellectual support, and at some point the first generation of this breakaway youth would become adults themselves with an incentive to rear their offspring(if they even have them) in a free ranging manner.

It's the stockholmed adults who make deprogramming hard. Also it's not a past time thus far, 200 years of revolutionary rhetoric on the other hand is and it's 200 plus years of failure.

As usual, you're talking about DOING NOTHING. Good news Ziggy, you're already doing that!

Without authority figures, the point is that children don't have any concept of programming, to actually program a child you need to repetitively dedicate yourself to it slavishly, the society we live in is so ridiculous and unnatural that it just creates a bunch of irritable and existentially confused adults (take me, for example).

Children do not need authority, they need guides. They look for them but only find indoctrination and confusion.

I know that..? We're anarchists here, this is @news. Ziggy just pooped all over the TOTW, so no, none of this was the point.

Yep the authoritarian education is blatant brainwashing. After kindergarten the school becomes Auschwitz,.,

Could you properly define milquetoast liberal activism before we could have an appropriate discussion concerning this?

Meh ... Why rehash that crap? nihilistroll wants anarchists securely in their subcultural ghetto and I disrespectfully disagree. (It's dumb)

No, I'm not preaching "left unity", only pointing out the obvious limitations of anarchy confined to little cliques. If anything has "been tried and failed", it's total-isolation-from-anything-even-slightly-leftist anarchy.

i believe if we are going to be serious about anarchy here people, the folder of "leftism" can be easily plopped into the folder of statecraft! Sub-cultures are basically another form of statecraft, the c00lest d00ds,,.., the loudest microphones, the most provocative people, always get the most attention! And i laugh, i laugh as i sprinkle the blood of the homeless on my forehead!

I do not have a subculture, i have the debauchery of murder, and my double life! I LAUGH! MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I guess attention-seeking is the only motive you understand?

what your issue with the SE comment was, how it "ruined this thread". I don't see any alternative to forced education than to get rid of it entirely. It's definitely relevant to anarchist action, everyone wants to know what to do, it would be better if children somehow could understand that they don't need things that they actually DON'T NEED. The failures of student movements and unions are the result of the conditions of workers and students, which start with the educational system.

Sometimes trolling and "comedic hyperbole" is more therapuetic than trying to get straight answers out of people on the internet, or trying to write a long dry analysis that would be appreciated by anarchists.

And there is a lot of attention seeking that goes on in our society, and from what I've read i've read and experienced, it is the dominant force within subcultures. It's an unfortunate element of the world we live in, we see it as an obvious example in "our" president. Most people don't really want to hear genuine discussion, or even genuine soundbites, what they want is the recycled trash that gets a response.

I guess I just find it frustrating that ziggy tends to state the obvious and doesn't even seem to care why he might be expected to support critiques with something anyone could actually do something about.

It's a basic purpose-of-internet-discussion issue I have with him and I'm not the only one. But then again, maybe it doesn't matter and I'm taking this too seriously *shrug*

The value of an education is an unshakable perennial value in the modern age and my kind of views would be seen as some kind of first world pseudo problem. Most anarchists probably support some form of education system just as most of them still support work. My critique of education structurally mirrors Bob Black's critique of work. Most don't go after it as such and talk about all the problems of education accept education itself. For me, like BB on work, to define it is to despise it. An anarch orientation(or at least the most extreme individualist anarchist one) should flush education down the toilet. For me it's one of THE currencies to deface going forward.

And it's obvious what must be done to end education, END EDUCATION DUH. The problem is that it still has perennial currency even among anarchists. This is why there needs to be a distinct breed of Stirnerian Anarchs to hammer this point home.

Fuck education.

I agree with Ziggy. Formal education needs to go. I'd expect anarchists to have at least read Illich by now. Also, anarchic societies historically, have never had formal education. They have apprentice learning, play learning, extensive child freedom in a nurturing environment. The early equivalent to universities would be shamanism or monasteries, like the Pythagoreans. There's nothing wrong with these kinds of knowledge-bolos in themselves, but they shouldn't be tied-in with career progression, debt, managerialism, socially recognised expertise or any of this claptrap.

Formal education has always been shit. Authoritarian in structure, sit-down-and-shut-up, mostly used to select people into different classes of careers or for "nation-building". Absurd punishments and lots of off-the-record abuse on the side, not to mention endemic bullying among the students themselves. But in the past, this was mitigated somewhat by teachers' professional autonomy. A few good social-democratic teachers could make a lot of difference, so could a good peer-group or a school with an experimental child-centred approach. I'm sure this still happens in some alt-schools and some of the richer ones, but the norm these days is factory-like mass-processing in securitised environments which fuck the kids up no end.

Yesterday in Britain... hundreds of schools put on lockdown because of hoax threats they knew were hoaxes. Pigs searching bags, locking people in classrooms and manhandling children. Nobody told what's going on. That's right - today's generation of sheep are meant to submit to being groped, bag-searched and extrajudicially imprisoned without even being given a reason. And most of them do.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bomb-threats-sent-hundreds-schools...

And this is the tip of the iceberg. Pigs in schools, kids being put in solitary confinement, absurd disciplinary rules, kids being punished because they're two minutes late when it's not their fault, CCTVs, children locked in classrooms, a lot of schools are just one step down from prisons these days. Right now, it seems parents need to keep their kids out of school just to protect them from state terror and growing up with PTSD. And the absurdities of idpol and alt-right are proof of what happens when kids grow up in these totalitarian environments.

And Ziggy mentions aspies... if someone has special needs it's even worse. I don't know one aspie who had a good time at school. The rigid performance demands clash harshly with particular special needs, to the point where learning becomes impossible. Most are traumatised, or kicked out early. Even the ones who go on to become geniuses in some specialist area, or who go on to do well at uni, generally struggled massively at school. Look at Kaczynski's biography for example. Einstein once said the only time he wasn't learning was when he was at school. But today there's a cult of "integration", making aspies fake-NT or else get recognised inside these authoritarian institutions. It's a recurring disaster and it's leading to everything from hikikomori to school shootings to early suicides, but nobody seems to care as long as they're "getting the opportunities" to be moulded into sheep like everyone else.

There's also been a tendency for education at all levels to be dumbed-down. Most students never learn to think critically or logically, or to construct an argument of their own. What's even worse, the spaces which used to exist for student politics are being corroded in a lot of countries. University asylum where it existed, student-run halls of residence, rights to protest on campus, the leeway which comes from academics having autonomy in their departments... all corroded or gone. A lot of places it's illegal to protest on campus, there's lots of minor infractions and students get subjected to pseudo-judicial disciplinary processes for everything from breaking idpol etiquette to tying their bike to the wrong lamp-post. Anyone kicking up a fuss gets suspended or expelled, banned from campus, banned from contacting anyone on campus and otherwise harassed until they either quit of psychologically collapse. That goes for staff as well as students.

This is from South Africa:
https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2018-03-19-feesmustfall-free-edu...
Same bullshit but at universities. Managers have draconian powers, ban all protests on campus. Hundreds of students arrested for protesting illegally or fighting back when pigs attack them for protesting illegally. Some of them still being persecuted years later, spending time in jail, under house arrest with draconian terms, expelled or banned from campus. Ironically, the struggle actually won - but this hasn't stopped the repression. This is really the weakness of student protest (and most kinds of protest) today - the securitised infrastructure with heavy managerial discretion and the ability to squash or micro-regulate someone on a whim is making it hard to sustain activism.

There's still student movements a lot of countries. I think often the university period is the first time in people's lives that people have enough independence from their parents and schools to actually start questioning the course of their life that's been laid down by others. I've heard about student protests recently in Sudan, Swaziland, India, Russia, Colombia, Chile. In Latin America there's still a sense that students should be social critics, in Africa they're often the main pro-democracy lobby, or they find that militant protest is the only way they can get mundane concerns heard. In Greece and France they used to occupy all the time, but not in the last five years or so. There's still student protests in the US and UK, and there were lots of students in the 2011 wave worldwide (Quebec for instance), and 2007 in Greece. I think often the dynamic today is, students no longer have the everyday communities from which to organise resistance, but they can organise via social media and create flash-mob-like protests which are difficult to contain. This happens even in very repressive countries like China and Egypt. But the culture of these movements is disappointing, today. There's little durability, they often fizzle out or crack easily under repression, people don't get the support they need, and the participants get scared-off or fucked-up and don't become lifelong activists. The normalisation of security fascism has entered people's "common sense" and it comes out in things like idpol, as well as the limited nature of demands. The fact that students are protesting for gun control (a reformist pro-state demand arising from a mediatised moral panic) and not for an overhaul of the carceral school environments which are causing the shootings is indicative of how little alternative consciousness there really is. Your average schoolchild is more likely to die homeless on the streets in 20 years time or to kill themselves than they are to get shot in a school shooting, but the media and its crowdsourced social-media imitators drive the agenda.

Student movements can be progressive for the same reason that workers' movements can be progressive. They resist the way education is organised. At their most radical, student movements turn into drop-out movements which turn into activist countercultures which turn into anarchist challenges to capitalism. This happened often enough in the 1960s-90s but has been much reduced today. We also need to think about learning pathways outside of schooling.

by someone taking her name for such a milquetoast run...

the more there is, the worse it gets. why? because they all want stuff. what do people do with their qualifications? they trade them in for stuff. more mining, more infrastructure, more pollution etc. never in the history of humans have so many people been 'educated' and look at the mess!

Why blame the kids? They didn't come up with a for-profit education model that only moulds new corporate drones. They're just being led in to it like lambs to slaughter.

They did choose to go and put themselves in (INSANE) levels of debt. it's like standing in shit for the experience and then complaining it's all over your shoe.

Oh for fuck sake, if you don't go to college you basically have no future. You're relegated to working at Wal-Mart or ditch digging or homelessness. You can't blame people for wanting to have a half decent income through the job they got by going to college, given the way society is structured. That means going into debt.

It doesn't have to be this way. There are numerous countries around the world where post secondary education is free.

Anarchists mocking students for complaining about debt are not anarchists. They are shitheads.

I simply 'pay off' one half, with education and debt in this case, to kill: resign those whom I didn't pay off and/or whom refused my 'kind' offer, to homelessness or worse, some shitty job. education plus debt divides 'us' into those who accept the offer versus those who want change!

You be both for change and still work at a half decent job for a living. It's not either/or. And who says people without a college education want change?

Fuck Students. Fuck the middle class culture that demands there kids to go to university. Fuck your fake justification and most of all Fuck You, anon.

Yeah! Fuck students, fuck the middle class, fuck ordinary people, fuck the rich, fuck the poor. Fuck everyone except for us, the pure ideological holier-than-thou, anarchistas! We are God's chosen ones!

Last time I completed a degree I had like 35k Canadian$ in debt, which would equate to 80-100k $ in the U.S. Never paid a dime, and that's my way of "complaining". Then several years later the debt was nulled, so I could get more corporate debt. Who cares? Of course if you seriously wanna work in your field of study they'll be going after you, but even at that there's usually a way to dodge the system.

So to say... It's not exactly at the students complaining about debt that I'm laughing at, but rather those who take debt as some inescapable moral imperative, like a Damocles sword.

Also all this debt money could be invested at least in more anarchistic projects than paying for stupid apartments and eating at diners all the time... you know like pooling in part of the money to instead buy a house to make an actual cooperative out of it, or colllective open farm, or whatever. I mean... those are just a tiny few legal options you can realize out of it. But I'm seeing too many people not look at all the options they got at hand, and behave as if the mainstream options are the only ones there are, and will ever be...

I'd call that social determinism, or fatalism.

If you think upward mobility can be a tool for deep social change you're an idiot. Any privileged casste of crafty professional revolutionaries ended up renewing thee same old wheel that brought them upwards. You'll realize quickly when you reach a social status how you're compelled to not give a fuck about thos who weren't "smart" or "hard-working" enough to climb the social ladder as well.

Hierarchies are so gooood for you anyways...

Lol....that's not what I said you fucking moron. People want clean drinking water, healthy food, clothing, shelter, medical care and transportation. They want these things in order to survive. In order to afford these things, they need money. In order to acquire money, they need a decent paying job. In order to get a decent paying job, they need education and a college degree. That's how the current system is set up.

Within the current system, you really can't blame people for wanting to go to college and get a degree, so they can at least have some semblance of a comfortable existence. Otherwise, you are asking people to become homeless and die on the street. What a great campaign slogan for anarchism....Join us and die on the street! Kill yourself for the revolution! Eat rats and be miserable for the cause! Poverty and destitution is righteous!

How appealing! Is that what YOU are doing?

It doesn't have to be either / or. We can fight the system while being in it. Especially given the fact there is no such thing as being outside the system anymore.

But hey, stay in your ideological purity bubble if you want. Whatever blows your hair back.

in this whole discussion i never saw anyone blaming anyone else for wanting a college degree. I've seen some very WELL-JUSTIFIED criticism of academia and self-identifying careerism, but I have not seen one person in this thread say that "people who want college degrees are fucking pieces of shit"

what would be stupid and self-enslaving is thinking that having one is imperative to a reasonable amount of comfort and happiness. I have a college degree but in the current economy I've found that the one I have doesn't help me get ANY jobs.

I said it but my comment was deleted. I described college education, which I had dropped out of, as an indoctrinating conveyor belt of data solely related to the reproduction of capital, and that the students were sheepish puppets of the system sustaining a culture of burnout and depression.,.

Agreed. 11:47 is one ridiculous blowhard for spewing shit about how pursuing "better" wage slavery will improve someone's living conditions (and making them pay more taxes, mortageges, accounts and insurances,... ahem!) but even stupoider the belief that college will changre anything, in country where the dumbo President can't even prove his college degree.

Hey fuckwipe. If you have a college degree, your chances of getting a job with decent pay are a lot higher than without a degree. That's a fact. You're probably a high school drop-out yourself, amirite?

Yes, it's simply better wage slavery. So? Unless you have a plan for immediately eliminating wage slavery, you can't blame people for wanting to improve their living conditions. Fuck, even prisoners sometimes strike for better conditions.

But go ahead, go preach your anarchism to students, and tell them how not going to college is going to improve their lives and make them freer. Working at Wal-Mart or Dairy Queen or being homeless, is going to be so worth it when the revolution comes!

Good luck with that.

That is the game changer here. If we are talking about individual cases well, this is where grey area libertarian market and non market economies make some sense.

That's fucking stupid and badly-informed of you, 18:02... It's not about the degree but the field of study/specialization, and also the distinct outreach the school has on the job market.

Having a humanities or arts degree in some low-profile university won't give someone better jobs than a high-school dropout, while I've seen dudes with very little studies to put in their resumes, yet they were getting some very good contracts by hanging out at the golf club (and of course they were good talkers, but that ain't a socxial skill you get at college). Your understanding or labor economics and social mobility is even below college level... More like brutish categorizations taken from a college's promotional website.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/worldviews/2011/09/23/forbes-400-the-self-m...

Also if you thought that lefties are easier to attack and demoralize, then maybe you're right, but it ain't the types of victims you'll be finding here, you sheep.

"Having a humanities or arts degree in some low-profile university won't give someone better jobs than a high-school dropout,"

Yes it will:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/more-evidence-that-getting-a-good-job-...

http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/30/news/economy/college-grads-jobs/index.html

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/workers-with-no-college-degree-fall-further...

Your Forbes article is about the few noted exceptions of young entrepenuers who made it big without a degree, not the rule of most people most of the time. Statistically, your chances of getting a decent paying job go up dramatically with a college degree.

That's why sneering at students who become saddled with huge debt is not going to win anyone over.

while i don't blame college students for having illusions, and sadistically punishing them for debt doesn't help anything, it's true that having a college degree is overall pretty meaningless. You might be able to pull up some stats that show "college students get more jobs", but keep in mind that statistics never show the whole picture, they're always based on false generalizations and small samples of the whole instead of the whole. For example, the article you pull up on market watch:

"More evidence that getting a good job..."

what does the writer mean by a good job exactly? Probably one that pays more, jobs overall aren't good things, how good they are is just based on a sliding scale of shitty subservience. The less shitty the better and less shitty depends on what kinds of tasks an individual is suited for.

In my personal experience, employers don't care at all about my liberal arts degree, many of them realize that a degree by itself doesn't have anything to do with working a shit job.

statistically speaking the returns are diminishing. The times are ripe for some type of up the middle counter economy(like what the agorists talk about) that education drop outs can turn to instead. Really it's a matter of bringing back 19th century neo-classical counter economics. I know that later anarchism and anarchy rejects this for fairly good reasons(as I do) but perhaps this is something that the radical liberal types should get on who don't like progressive scientific management.

My whole plan is talking about how the old political economic model of anarchism can be used by the more radical among the civil political ideologues. I'm sure that Proudhon and Tucker can now be used by some liberals at this point. This creates a more preferential surrogate activity ecosystem for the ludic anarchic type to operate in.

An anon said this, which kicked off this whole part of the thread.
"They did choose to go and put themselves in (INSANE) levels of debt. it's like standing in shit for the experience and then complaining it's all over your shoe."

He's saying 'How dare students complain about debt'. Obviously he feels students should bow down and accept their lifelong debt load and accept the system that created it. Don't complain, don't question, just obey. Or don't go to school at all. This could have just as easily been said by a right wing RepublicanI who hates free education and wants to punish students for pursuing degrees in fields they don't like.
I pointed out the consequences of not going to college at all and how you can't really blame students for simply following the systems' reward streams. They want a decent life too, like everyone else. And that this is not incompatible with changing things. It's not either / or.

Then some shithead wrote:
"Fuck Students. Fuck the middle class culture that demands there kids to go to university. Fuck your fake justification and most of all Fuck You, anon."

But nihilist Einstein here insists "i never saw anyone blaming anyone else for wanting a college degree".
No, nobody blamed anyone for that. It's a straw man. Some posters blamed kids for complaining about debt. Other posters just hate students it seems.

a really huge problem i have with the comments on this site though is that they make it so hard over all to fallow the conversational, subjective elements of what people say...it really wouldn't be that hard to fix this: for example, on a lot of websites, someone makes a comment thread, and other people respond to the comment thread, if other people want to respond to the commenter's comments then it's easier to figure out who is talking to whom.

Or is that more hierarchical and oppressive?
Lol, i think it would atleast put the trolling into perspective....

>People want clean drinking water, healthy food, clothing, shelter, medical care and transportation. They want these things in order to survive. In order to afford these things, they need money. In order to acquire money, they need a decent paying job. In order to get a decent paying job, they need education and a college degree.

No offence, but you're a fucking retard if you think people have to go to uni for those things. not a single person in my family or immediate social circle has gone to uni and they don't starve, suprisingly... you even said earlier in this thread that uni students end up working in retail.... you're defeating your own argument.

...when you call me a "fucking retard".

Then your family is the exception, not the rule. I never said people absolutely needed to go to college to get these things, I said by going to college, they increase their chances of getting a decent paying job to get these things. And where the fuck did I say uni students work retail?

Yeeeaaaa! Blame the bosses, the landlords, the gurus and State leaders for everything, comrades!

Forget about all this primmie guilt... Put all the responsibility on the masters like a good slave. As if they were the sole responsible for all the pains of capitalism, but not the middle-class fucks who work so hard for them, keep making babies, keep polluting and being general annoyances or threats to those not part of their system.

Capital doesn't need class anymore, it doesn't exist as their means of management, now everyone participates with the freedom to reproduce capital on their own terms, the trouble is they are slaves to their libidinal drives and reproduce babies rather than a sustainable existence. Those who fail to reproduce capital are incarcerated.,.

The MOST important issue is that this new Idpol Facebook generation, the students, by policing themselves and contributing to the panopticon society, have freed capital to concentrate their energies into expanding and consolidating their hegemonic control network. It use to be that the teachers were cops, now the students are also!,.,

aside from the usual egoist v. commie shouting match i think it's fair to say that anarchist-student movement overlaps aren't known to have gone really well. speaking from experience here (UC 2009) the @s took the student movement as an occasion to break shit, the student movement was controlled by tankies and ran the @s out. im not sure what was learned there except i learned something personally about not fucking with "social movement" style activism no matter who the "revolutionary subject" supposedly was.

I'm a 60-year-old fart here, with no post-millennial kids. What I have heard is that this generation is obsessed with "safety", brains organized around their smartphones, and even more retarded in their development than the millennials (many of whom are said to be still-adolescent "twixters" at age 33). Aside from the media clichés, I have a detailed study by Jean twinge, published in a book called i Gen. All the epigenetic damage/degeneration produced by slavery, already a 5000-10,000 year accumulation, appears to be deepening.

For some perspective here, normal/undamaged humans ("savages"), who basically socialize/educate themselves, are full adults at age 15 or 16. What normal humans have is not "safety" (there are actually DANGERS in the "wild"!), but instead high intelligence, presence, resilience, and a deep (experiential) spiritual foundation - all of which are in exceedingly short supply now. "Safety" will also be in EXCEEDINGLY short supply over the life-span of the post-millennials, as the inherent death-spiral of "civilization" (slavery) accelerates and fulfills itself. The cure - a very widespread, deep, radical (experiential) spiritual awakening, the likes of which history has never seen - is far from pre-ordained.

Nobody mentioned "The Poverty of Student Life" yet?

School and Facebook sets you free!

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