TOTW: money, money, money

  • Posted on: 8 April 2018
  • By: thecollective

What kind of exchange do you anticipate working in an anarchist situation? Is barter or trade the only option consistent with your principles? Or do you see a committee-run economy with currency much as we have it now?
Do any anews readers believe in the power of crypto-currency to bring about a better situation, on the way to anarchy? Do local currencies have a place in your dreams? Do you have any experience with using one?
If you could make a change to how people exchange things here and now, what would that change be?
What is the best argument you've heard (or made) for why anarchists should work for economic (instead of, or along with, social/political) change? What's the worst?

category: 

Comments

I believe in many things. From person to person, situation to situation, individuals can mutually agree on what to exchange. People can trade labor hours, barter for personal propety, I am a programmer and I think certain cryptographic currencies are very good for this. Litecoin is a basic, no frills coin that works. Monero is a super secure and private coin that is my personal favorite. Peercoin and Faircoin are both coins that use proof-of-stake instead of proof-of-work, so they use WAY less electricity, which is a good thing. Faircoin is actually made by leftists and is active in western Europe, apparently. And the kurds seem to sell stuff for Faircoin. Peercoin is more active in the US I think. Monero is best for undermining the state and the global elite though.

Digital or quantitative can all be monopolized. A sizeable proportion of people will never access the internet, and before long middle men will deal and tax and pass these costs down to the disenfranchised masses.

Petit-bourgeois Proudhonism is as far as anarchoids are capable of going. In other words, a grubbier, bummier form of capitalism. As opposed to communist revolution, where all forms of commodity relations are abolished, which is what functional adults aspire to.

It's not my cup of tea but it and other market views are the devil I know and prefer. Communist ideology is what it is and it DOES NOT abolish commodity relations. Commodity relations are a religious habitual ritual and you don't 'abolish' those things. You can make things worse though and that's exactly what communist ideology does. It also attracts the pathological adults.

Essentially as far as economic to hypothetical post economic systems go you start off with an orange and black system(unless there's a REALLY imaginative revolution going on that is being steered by insurrection) THEN you go to a green and black or blue and black system(blue and black is what I would call a broad neo-archaic system of production compared to the green thing which is too colored by the religion of substitutionism imv).

Of course the general picture will be panarchic and polychromatic.

How can anyone claim that there is anything "revolutionary" about anarchism? As can be seen in this post, and everywhere else as well, it is one hundred percent a miserable and weaselly personal survival accommodation to current day market society.

The emphasis is on revolution to perform for anarchism not the converse. Revolution on its own is just Egypt and the military or worse Lenin and Mao.

Always there is _some_ kind of economy. Economy is about (re)distribution of matter and energy among members of the community. It never stops, only models may change.

So, at the very basic level of common sense, unless we want others to define economy of anarchist society, we need to design, test and deploy our own.

Which is a major part of my work, BTW.

Not me … I'm not interested in building castles in the air. The reason "others [will] define economy" is because that's extremely likely to be a coercive process. Empire and standardized currencies are closely linked.

Then again, I'll probably just end up bartering for bullets and canned food if the climate change thing really gets going in our lifetime!

I love bananas and mangoes. I'll swap a fibreglass bow and 5 arrows for 20 bananas and 15 mangoes?

"an anarchist situation", "on the way to anarchy"

this topic, phrases like these two quoted above, and the replies entertaining the very idea, are perfect illustrations of just how confined by the logic of domination so many anarchists still are—and nothing anarchistic can but built or be conceived of being built without and immunity to it. our task as anarchists is the destruction of this logic, of this society.

This inability to relate to -- or to even begin to imagine -- any possibilities outside of its author's microscopically small loop of immediate lived experiences drives home the 100% All-American quality of anarchism.

Anarchism has nothing to do with, and nothing to offer in the struggle for, society-wide anti-capitalist revolutionary change.

Agree. Anarchy is supposed to be an ideal, a dream struggled for. There is no point to struggling if there isn't even a theoretical light at the end of the tunnel that's worth fighting for. Fighting for fighting's sake is just juvenile anti-authoritarianism. By that I mean the most basic level of anti-authoritarianism one feels as a child where there's nothing beyond the simple "no". There's been a resurgence in North America lately of essentially a repackaged juvenile anti-authoritarianism where the only thing that matters is saying "no", along with a deep crystallized cynicism that is unsustainable for anyone to maintain.

If you think everything is shit and there's nothing you or anyone could ever do about it and act with near-equal scorn to attitudes that something better could be made, you've painted yourself into a corner of endless brooding and despair where the only thing you can hope for is a quick and painless death. That sucks, and that's not what I want anarchism to be.

I actually have the opposite view, I think the ability to say no to reifying society is a big part of an anarch orientation. The juvenile model of behavior should be sophisticated not looked down upon.

The ultimate impossible goal is an anarchic juvenile NO to indoctrination. Indoctrination is the twin tower to production. You might say it's my Stirnerian take that is equivalent to to Dupont's take on decommissioning from production. It's all about disowning indoctrination from the Stirnerian anarch perspective. Open fighting can play a small part but there's much more simple things one can do.

Anarchy is not an ideal, it is actualized in the now.

" Anarchy is supposed to be an ideal, a dream struggled for. "

no, it is not "supposed" to be. anarchism may be an ideal to be struggled for, like communism or any other ism; anarchy is a way of living and relating in the world TODAY.

drink their milk etc also known as why do you eat and drink what 'they' tell you to eat and drink. Also, check out how many flat earth theories are appearing. This is anarchic ideas in action. There is NO 100% proof we live on a globe at all yet how many believe we do! Why is Antarctica such a secret. I mean, we are told we live in the free world. People, on this site, know that is a load of bollocks. I haven't eaten or drunk animal-related stuff for years and I'm fit and healthy. I know I'm not free like they say I am. So, maybe the earth is flat? Also, check out forbidden archaeology. To me, all this adds up to a far more interesting anarchy.

Do they tell you that farming and hunting is paralell to rape-culture?

Ugh, stop idiot-jacketing veganism.

-a vegan who knows the earth is obviously fucking round.

globe. I took a time delayed photo of the night sky. Tell me how the 'stars' formed concentric circles if we are supposedly hurtling through space around the sun which is also hurtling through space? Where is the curvature of the earth? The earth as a globe is just a theory. There is no physical proof. Wood for the trees!

Classic troll is classic! Call your friend in a different time zone and ask them where the sun is in the sky.

…. thats right! Your "friend" works for THEM. MUAHAHAHAHA

HIs friend is dead by now, and the telecom compagny that recorded his voice digitized it, and the Satanic Illuminati NWO is using it to make you bellieve he's on the otherr side of the planet. Thousands die every day from their assassination rings WAKE UP!

jeez, now the flat-earthers are spouting their crap here?

have you not ever been on an airplane? you can SEE the curvature of the earth. doesn't prove it is a sphere, but surely proves it is not flat.

oh wait, airplanes are a conspiracy, they don't actually fly.

Marxist conceptions of property, based on Western notions of property, have created confusion on things that may be more natural/cultural in how we traded with each other historically and pre-historically. There is the breakdown of private, personal and property in common. The desire to eliminate private property and commodity exchange was a simplistic answer to real problems with how trade was being conducted. Also barter isn't a real thing. There is a level of gifting going on in normal exchanges between people, where the value of the item hardly distracts from the thing in itself.

The labor of people shape them, for sure, but an anarchist world of many conceptions would need to rely on a variety of schemes or accept dissolution of social ties, which might not be possible, which is why wars happen, so certain things might need to be considered. This is, of course, accepting that mass society has lost its totality, but aspects of massive groups may still exist, such as in large metropolitan areas that found a way to co-exist without losing the integrity of large population concentrations. This is why I agree with Zerzan that cities might always exist, but they shouldn't dictate the world's ways of life and it isn't about them giving space, as that puts them in the role of manager of others, but rather them accepting changes brought on by other ways of life without trying to snuff them out. We respected the lions, tigers and bears when we didn't have easy access to firearms.

With that said, commodity exchange, as defined by Marxists, may still exist in anarchy, but out of necessity of getting along with others around us. I imagine the concepts of the commons, a Western one, would expand and perhaps change in most places and that private property would be either eliminated, in any case, as the concept is linked to Western notions of ownership, which breaks down once the foundation of Western dominance is broken.

"Anarchist fetishes: power and money".
"How taboos gonna empower anarchism"

is it really this impossible for so many supposedly critical thinkers to be absolutely incapable of envisioning a world NOT through the lens of economics? wow.

more, more please, just a bit more! Slippery fuckin' humans...you gotta watch 'em!!! I was doin' alright 'til someone told me I was being ripped off, now I'm angry...now I want MORE...my rightful fuckin' share! Now I'm the fuckin' treadmill lookin' at what every fucker else has got. Jeez, why did they have to tell me I was being shafted, I was doin' alright. I had all I needed! I've got 'American Dream' disease and I ain't even American!

Time to get a ticket to Vegas brah, time to feed the monstrous Muhrican Dream! * Elvis singing Viva Las Vegas *

So, my favourite model of economy for an anarchist-ish community (actually, for ANY community).

1. Goal and supreme criterion of all economic decisions: Most equitable fulfilment of needs, within limits of sustainability and resilience.
2. Property of resources and means of production: abolished in all forms, in favour of community-controlled stewardship.
3. Concentration of resources: abolished in all forms, including inheritance. [edit: this is redundant; no property, no concentration]
4. Allocation of surplus: based on universal, participatory and direct procedures.
5. Inter-community transfers using capitalism-free cryptocoins.

In a pinch, it seems to me like an adequate minimal definition of capitalism-free economy suitable for an anarchist community (up to 2500 people).

Sounds good. Are there any rules about the bartering of human labour for the fulfillment of needs if the transfer is participatory?.,.

You need to ask the community. :-)

But seriously, I am trying to define minimal set of rules to keep such economy capitalism-free. Whatever else, within these boundaries, should be ok as long as it works for the community, but no guarantee. A lot will depend on governance model, some on ecology model -- communities are, IMO, at least 3D. ;-)

I am working hard on theoretical base for such experiment and also, with a handful of comrades, we try to start it in micro-scale.
Anybody interested, see it here https://cni-coop.net/pip/ and here http://cnicoop.wordpress.com/ and talk to me/us.

Oh you sweet man, now I can barter my sexual skills for accommodation and food, and become a primitivist housewife. Look me up for a freebie my hunk of sweet love ;)

someone has to chop wood and pick beans. why not even milk a goat

we think these are some of the great pleasures of a life worth. or did you mean a secular, psycho-social science -objectifying sexuality- and capitalizing it's practice?

Just plain old Epicurean lust.

rules?

that right there should say all that needs to be said about economy and anarchy. INCOMPATIBLE!

This model smells like garbage:

1. So, which authority is going to decide on the "equitable" fulfillment of needs? Why not let people work things out themselves?

2. Okay, private property and the law gone, good.

3. Okay, private property and the law gone, good.

4. Allocation of surplus? Are you an economist or something? Your model seems like there will be a class of people who have very basic poverty level resources (why do you need that guitar?! aren't you happy with your ramen noodles! I can donate my curry powder and thyme because i feel sorry for you.) while there is another class of anarcho-elites who have access to video games and who buy weed off the internet.

[edit]
tl;dr: I clearly refer to an anarchist community up to 2500 people.
Re #1: I see no reason why such a community should be expected to have any authority other than community itself. Community itself is those people you suggest should "work things out themselves".
Re #4: Again, I see no reason such community should allow the emergence of privileged and deprived classes. But if they decide to do it, who is in the position to tell them not to?
[/edit]
---------------------------------------------------------
My bad, I probably should make it clearer. But you can find it in linked texts (I am linking directly, as a proof I am not making it up right now: https://cni-coop.net/pip/Glossary/Community.html)

1. The central point is the community. And what I advocate (knowing that it will never be the only way) is a community up to 2500 people roughly (optimal size much below that), managing themselves in the most direct way possible. What way exactly, I suppose it will be up to them. But in the 3D mapping system I am working on the governance dimension is defined by the "percentage of population having direct and real influence on the decisions concerning them" -- the more, the better, of course.

That means that decisions regarding the goal of community's economy ("Most equitable fulfilment of needs, within limits of sustainability and resilience.") _should_ IMO be evaluated and taken by the whole community (or at least those who _want_ to be involved) and directly. If you see a better way to do it, I am happy to learn.
...
...
4. "Are you a dentist or something?" :D -- My guess is that was intended as derogatory. Doesn't work on me, though. And yes, most of my life, before and after turning an anarchist, I have been studying and working in the area of economy and technology.

But seriously: The way basic needs are defined depends fully on governance system (see #1). The economy guarantees nothing per se. In the model I described, one can create extremely unjust situation, as you suggested, or one really equitable (in your or my view) and a lot in between. That is why the economic dimension cannot be the only one. Governance and ecology (with assumption that ecology includes other people) seems to be necessary minimum to describe any community in full (thus "3D").

So, if community keeps their governance system in a proper way (however we define "proper") and executes decisions it takes in an efficient manner, it will be their decision if they allow elites to emerge or not. I hope not.

Finally, when I was writing about surplus, I meant real surplus -- after every community member is taken care of. It may sound harshly, if we imagine an oppressive community saying that golden plated vapper is not a real need. But hey, you can always leave and try your chances as a happy individualist or even ancap -- nobody stops you. Being in community involves daily trade-offs by default.

Seriously speaking, my motivation to point out the surplus thing is a quote from a prominent Polish anarcho-cooperatist (Edward Abramowski, ca. 1910) who said that a coop (which is a kind of community we talk about) that is not using their surplus to advance political agenda is nothing better than a capitalist commercial partnership.

Yeah I'll remain a happy individualist and leave as soon as possible from this governance zone you will create.

Opting-out is a fundamental right of every person, so you do not even need to mention it. :-)

Huh? So it's a fundamental right then to take any part of this governed zone and use it to assist in the liberation of my clan of individualists?

You may need to deal with the community in question, of course. But the economic model has nothing to do with it.

OK, let me try to make it precise:

1. If you do not like the set of axioms I built the model upon, there is no need to accept it. You seem to believe that "clan of individualists" will live without _any_ kind of economy nor governance. According to my definitions, wherever there are at least two humans in social relationship, there will always be _some_ governance, economy and ecology (https://cni-coop.net/pip/Glossary.html). If you reject this axiom, I am fine with that. However, it makes any discussion about my views meaningless. Unless, of course you want to convince me to change this particular axiom. Go ahead, then.

2. You seem to be looking for someone to rebel against. It surely will not be me. If we are talking about praxis, we all make our own choices and face the consequences. That's all. Unless you stand in front of me and try to influence my life, I have nothing to do with your choices.

On the level of internet debate, please refer to https://cni-coop.net/pip/1st_things_1st.html where you will find some important disclaimers from me. Among others, this one:

This website is not intended to make you change your mind.

If you read it once or twice, check the documents (selectively) linked here and go into "bullshit, bullshit!" or "yessss.... but..." modes, I invite you to move on and get back to your life.

This place is for those, who agree on its assumptions and conclusions and want to talk about elaboration, improvement and implementation of ideas presented here. Thank you for your understanding.

No, the clan of individualists need no economy, we take freely what is before us, there exist no axioms to observe, and the community will be overpowered by their own illogical stance in supporting axioms which protect systems of power which operate against the individual. Your nonsensical community is a farcical attempt at recuperation, and is a copy of the European libertarian socialist models posing as anarchistic and infiltrating anarchist milieus.
As for looking for someone or something to rebel against, what have you got? The last advice you give implies that I am PC and just goes to show the mode you use is a " GTFO I'm not tolerant of any criticism cos I'm an arrogant leftist cafe revolutionary.

I would only say that anarch/anarchic/anarchy should be used to distinguish the clan of individualists as I do think that anarchism is at least partially an economic model seeing as that's how it began with Proudhon.

Other then that, yeah, it's just another power scheme.

Apparently you guys overvoted me dramatically. Now, thanks to your friendly admonition, I know that:
-- There is only one right and true anarchism -- the one you certified so eloquently.
-- Anything else is immoral, unAmerican and fattening.
-- Axioms do not exist.
-- Whatever and whoever does not agree with you is just nonsensical.

Overwhelmed by pure and undisturbed ultimate truth you emanate I have no choice, but to trash everything I learned during last 50 years (including ability to read and think) and just follow you, as your faithful believer. I promise, I will do my best, starting next week. Well, next month the latest.

Halleluyah!!!

I will give you the task of plundering the food and looking after the messy business of explaining our thieving methodology to those who choose to be the victims in the grand Nothing. Thank for volunteering, it avoids the nasty business of slavery.

Pev't o' tay merlong gumin gots,
Untle yun furly pazzen ye,
Confre an' ayzor, ayzor ots,
Bither de furloss bochre blee!

This is a Muhrican anarchist site not a Mediaterrainian strugglismo poetry site M,kay?

gadji beri bimba glandridi laula lonni cadori
gadjama gramma berida bimbala glandri galassassa laulitalomini
gadji beri bin blassa glassala laula lonni cadorsu sassala bim
gadjama tuffm i zimzalla binban gligla wowolimai bin beri ban
o katalominai rhinozerossola hopsamen laulitalomini hoooo
gadjama rhinozerossola hopsamen
bluku terullala blaulala loooo

zimzim urullala zimzim urullala zimzim zanzibar zimzalla zam
elifantolim brussala bulomen brussala bulomen tromtata
velo da bang band affalo purzamai affalo purzamai lengado tor
gadjama bimbalo glandridi glassala zingtata pimpalo ögrögöööö
viola laxato viola zimbrabim viola uli paluji malooo

tuffm im zimbrabim negramai bumbalo negramai bumbalo tuffm i zim
gadjama bimbala oo beri gadjama gaga di gadjama affalo pinx
gaga di bumbalo bumbalo gadjamen
gaga di bling blong
gaga blung

Emile, is that you? I told you not to take the purple acid...

Mockles! Fent on silpen tree,
Blockards three a-feening,
Mockles, what silps came to thee
In thy pantry dreaming?

Twas grill at and the smithy toads
Did fire and nimble in auto correct
As the jabberwocky stood
Unchanged

Barter, trade and currency are all consistent with anarchism being an impoverished form of capitalist politics; an a-political form of capitalist politics. It is essentially just a hangover from the socially disengaged drop-out culture fringe of the social movement of the 1960's, and has nothing to offer to society as a whole. Most of the responses here tend to confirm this as well.

There's no such thing as society kev. Also, anything a-political is preferable to its political counterpart.

Srsly what are you fucking doing on this site or didja ever read anything from anarchist thinkers, save Rothbard!?

Also, fuck society maybe maybe?

Was a reply to 07:53 troll.. Don't wanna inflate SE's ego bubble even more.

It's hard to know how a rhizomatic anarchist society would work in practice. Bolo'bolo sought to restrict currency but that was before the internet really. Historically, currency arose with state society and initially was a symbolic expression of sacred values. Fiat currency couldn't exist without states because anyone could print it, there's no guarantee of authenticity. Cryptocurrency or use of rare objects as currency, or time-exchange seem viable without states. Historically, anarchist indigenous societies have not used currency in the modern sense, but often use gift economy and status goods.

I would expect in an anarchist society or band, most things would be provided locally. This is true whether we assume people have few needs or that we're aiming for something more like luxury communism. Subsistence + gift economy + ludic economy. But I doubt this would happen all at once. The big problem is: how do we motivate ourselves/each other to "work"/do activity necessary for survival, if not by a cash economy? There's a big danger of defaulting back to either coercion or social pressure/status distribution as a substitute for cash (c.f. Maoism). The cash economy is ultimately a coercive system (it's based on rationing necessities of life and other goods based on possession of tokens) but the indirectness of the coercion might make it better than more directly coercive systems. In practice what I see happening, is a move towards decommodification in which growing spheres of life are taken out of the cash economy. This was already happening with the welfare state, but it can also be achieved piecemeal by anarchist collectives. So we start by decommodifying the things which are easy to decommodify - which we already do - for example, substitute skillshares for paid courses, piracy for cultural purchases, free parties for clubs. We gradually decommodify more and more things, finding ways to grow or scrounge food, squat or self-build. Paid can't compete with free, capitalism requires scarcity and withers amidst abundance, gradually everything becomes anarchist. Of course the state won't just sit back and let this happen, and that's where struggle comes in.

By the way, I think anarchists are doing community work completely wrong at the moment. There's too much leftist and idpol bullshit about starting from the community's perspective. The real issue is: there are poverty and unmet needs in many communities, what is the anarchist answer to this? The answer is to self-organise communities to produce outside the market. Once people are taking part in anarchist practices and becoming free from constant scarcity, the nature of the community changes. The ressentiment is weakened, the tone of politics becomes more anarchic.

and others don't have enough. In a post capitalist world if there's still mass production why can't people just line up for what they need without a medium of exchange? I thought this was the original idea, a moneyless, classless, stateless society.

I don't see how crypto currency would be useful to me at this point unless I needed to do private transactions but sharing and gifting is something that already happens every day within capitalist society and in fact is essential to it's function.

What I want is more free stuff for poor people like food, housing, health care and transportation and as I've said before anarchists should start businesses to support their family and friends to build dual power and offer alternatives to the profit driven economy.

Get money stay true!

"as I've said before anarchists should start businesses to support their family and friends to build dual power and offer alternatives to the profit driven economy."

yeah, because starting a business is an alternative to the profit driven economy.

holy shit.

I'm sure you already know all about it but here's an article I'm reading about Bitcoin:

https://thebaffler.com/salvos/zealots-of-the-blockchain-golumbia

Better than anything else on this thread:

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2017/01/18/pers-j18.html

This is the material basis for a coming communist revolution in which, among other things, there will be absolutely no room for exchange, barter, trade or currency.

They'll harness dat 7 billion like Goku channels a spirit bomb from DBZ mankind. The REAL left is where it's at.

8.5/10

As for the last question:

Get rid of all usury, limit the acquisition and use of anything beyond a "home" or land needed for a person to live. Make sure surplus housing existed for whomever whenever.

I know its a pipe dream of sorts but it would go along way to change the way people think about exchange generally.

Tucker's 4 plus Carson's 5th(infrastructure). That would be a nice start. Hell it would be nice to see some dilettante politician run on that platform and see what happens. Beats all this progressive crap which will simply create more laws and regulations to fuck the next counter culture over like last time.

Go back to that as the default anarchist position and not red and black communist infected anarchism which(as Sean Wilbur rightly points out) was essentially a successful Russian specific entryist ideology.

and how do you propose to "limit" and "make sure"? oh wait, laws and rules, right.

It doesn't make sense for anarchic existence to be maintained by limits or making sure against. A post commodity culture would have to be an existential meeting of minds who have disowned those things. Durkheim's idea of organic as opposed to mechanical mores makes sense in this context. The process of a non commodity society would have to be organic.

What's missing is the discussion on how to cure the sickness of need, of addiction, and how to deconstruct the marketplace and the fear of famine and homelessness which are the roots to the formation of the market mentality and its materialistic values. There is no difference between bartering potatoes and sign a cheque, these are just the tools and methods of exchange, they do not alter the underlying sickness of market addiction.,.

yes, i think that is the most useful comment on this thread so far.

And the market mentality is the capitalist doctrine instilled in the juvenile mind from infancy. Currency per se has no value, only when it is given false value by an authority for the benefit of themselves does morality enter the equation. The colonialists who fabricated land purchase contracts using blankets, knives and beads as currency are examples of this immorality and corruption of currency and exchange value.,.

In the future, I imagine that I, and many others, will probably be bartering for drugs, ammo, fuel and canned food.

Cryptocurrencies are fine if they hold water in a given territory or situation.

Other options? Strength and cunning are certainly a type of currency. I imagine raiding, plundering and cattle theft will be pretty widespread in the post-apocalyptic, post-capitalist future world.

If you want an image of the future, Winston. Picture a human face being mashed by an analog copy of Mad Max: Fury Road, forever.

An image of the future? Mad Max on anti-depressants playing the slot machines in Las Vegas.,.

Then Mad Max. Though the city will be a little cleaner and ‘smarter’ then dirty 70s New York.

Yep Mad Max was a rebel beyond cities, Bickle was a slave to the system.,.

Anarchists, you just may turn and ask the 'experts' aka 'masters' of knowledge who are probably verified by the masters who try to control you. Funny how dinosaurs are such a recent idea though, don't you think? How come Native Americans never found dinosaur bones in all that time? White man to the rescue! Good old white man found the fuckers and dated them 'bones' with his special fancy gadget and guess what, from just one bone the experts can put together a huge motherfuckin' beast!!! The kids love this shit. Dinosaur parks, museums, toys, films etc...WTF. Anarchists say no gods no masters no fuckin' dinosaurs.

they are plot conceived by modern science to distract us from the love of jesus. Science, given its lack of evidence (yeah right, we didn't fucking come from monkeys, that is obvious!) they built the dinosaur skeletons out of catilege from sharks, then "discovered" them because they have to have some extra compelling evidence to show that god isn't real. Duh!

Dinosaurs were nihilistic in temperament.

maybe you're being a bit hasty?

and the massive force of gravity keeps those huge oceans secured to the earth's surface yet a humble bumble bee can just fly opposing such massive forces! Money and gravity are scams. Both of these made-up forces are claims on your freedom.

That just one of numerous things wrong and bizarro about red and black ideology. It's basically poisoned anarchism with syndicalism and communism. At least Proudhon got things started with improvements to come down the road that did not involve syndicalism and communism and the continuation of the organization form.

"Here and there everything happening – here everyone receiving what they need, there each one getting whatever is needed according to their own capacity. Here, gift and barter – one product for another; there, exchange – product for representative value. Here, the producer is the owner of the product, there, the product is put to the possession of the collectivity" Emile Armand

I see this as essentially the correct agnostic position to take on money among other means of production.

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