TOTW: North American Anarchism

  • Posted on: 14 October 2018
  • By: notnull

What is North American anarchism? Is it different than anarchism elsewhere? How does it fit into the larger context of anarchism in other places?

As someone who lives in the U.S. with a certain demographic profile, some things are true about my life: it's relatively privileged. I don't frequently face violence or even discomfort. I can say whatever I want in public without worrying too much. I am meaningfully in control of my life and my circumstances. Opportunities for activity and entertainment are all around me. So where, then, do I focus my anarchism?

Should it be focused on stamping out oppression that exists in my local community? In my experience North American anarchism has largely failed at this, and badly. The predominance of white males in the anarchist community is the clearest evidence of this. There may be a few strongholds of multicultural anarchism here and there but I think it's safe to say that many non-white non-male people gravitate toward communities other than anarchism. Is it like this outside of North America?

I've often heard North American anarchism characterized by cliquishness and infighting. There do seem to be very pronounced factions with boundaries that are impossible to cross, and squabbles that are specific to North American anarchists and that seem irrelevant. Is this specific to North America? And is it because of unique circumstances of living in North America?

Which brings me to another question: why isn't there more collaboration between anarchists in North America and elsewhere? I've heard two common responses to this: that there is often a language barrier, and that it is due to the in-person nature of anarchism in general. But in a world of technology and relatively easy travel I am not happy with this answer. Isn't there something that North American anarchists can learn from anarchism elsewhere that is worth overcoming these challenges? And how might this happen?



This should be interesting for the paradoxes and enigmas which have besotted the Western identity!

"I am meaningfully in control of my life and my circumstances."

how exactly is it delusional to believe that I, a person living in the U.S., able to walk freely on the streets without worrying about being killed by police or the government, able to easily secure basic physical necessities, etc. etc. a bourgeois delusion? It sounds like you're implying that one in my position does *not* have quite a bit of freedom. now THAT would be a bourgeois delusion...

Different poster: you have those freedoms in direct proportion to your willingness to play ball and your perceived identity as a "dangerous" minority or lack thereof.

The booj delusions are onion layered!

nn, u WASP

Is there another 'North America' that I'm not aware of?

When I walk down the streets, or take the bus, or go to a mall, I have to be at least somewhat alert to the possibility of being stopped and searched by street cops, transit cops or mall cops. Not to mention being under totalitarian surveillance by cameras. Because I am white, there is a remote possibility I could be shot by cops, and if I was black, it would be more than a remote possibility. And then there's all the racists calling 9-1-1 on blacks for simply being black.

Besides, there isn't much time to "walk freely down the streets" since I spend most of my time either working or sleeping. And work is about the least 'free' place there is.

Nope, you got the right place. I figure Trumps presidency is finally the death of these narratives where people smugly imply that Liberia or North Korea or where-ever is so much worse and we should be grateful.

I mean, sure, there's places that are worse but the situation is rapidly deteriorating at the heart of the empire.

I'm sorry, but I find this completely non-compelling.

I can't even fucking believe the shit I've gotten away with without being killed. white-passing folx who believe the playing field has been leveled have another thing coming.

It's not "levelled" yet but when the social contract starts to unravel, so too do it's privileges. Catastrophic climate change is definitely going to be the great leveller.

What effect did the deportations of anarchists in the early 20th century have on the evolution of the milieu? Does it seem likely that illegalists and individualists were effectively wiped out because they were easy targets, or is the historical lack of that tendency just an expression of American culture? Is that related to the lack of multicultural anarchism?

I definitely can see the abundance of middle class / white values being a huge turnoff to people looking for immediate material benefits. You can't eat idealism for dinner. It also has a lot to do with the way all fair skinned ethnicities were turned into default white people and culture was largely split into white or black. This goes far in explaining the cutoff in relations between any given ethnicity and the culture of their original land base, as well as the cultural and social tensions between white and non-white people.

"What effect did the deportations of anarchists in the early 20th century have on the evolution of the milieu? were they just easy targets..."

I think it's very striking how earnestly le is currently willing to target @. I am going to draw a parallel with the black panthers, and not because I think their actions are similar, but because I think the surveillance warranted by both groups, given that their 'relative threat' to the 'state' is insignificant compared to actual threats, is very telling about the present agenda.

It makes it very hard to be 'effective' when an entire state is leveraging its collective knowledge and power to target you, like literally sending special forces into your camps to establish relationships for years to infiltrate your group and deliver information to the state. Is anyone doing that for the psycho gun-toting military-worshiping alt-right? No? Well, isn't that kind of unfair?

But it also provides information about how old-fashioned their approach is. I guess. Maybe?

After the Battle for Seattle and Post-Left push I expected great things from NA-based anarchism. Arguably the Black Bloc lives on in Anti-Fa...but it seems to have become Balkanized somewhat. Then Post-Leftism went exactly nowhere.
On the bright side there is great potential for an anarchist news website operating out of the US.
The net is anarchic and a major language on it is English. On the vision-thing leadership went by default to Europe ( mostly Greece & Germany ) However there are still problems coordinating physical demonstrations and large-actions with synergistic net hacktivism. This meshing of street and web tactics promises to deliver huge rewards for us once we master it. To the extent NA-based anarchists are netcentric they can contribute and maybe lead. Obviously there's world class hackers there, even if Satoshi probably came from Europe. Finally, due to the 5VEY arrangement I'd like to build up a suitable response to this in the Anglosphere. A kind of ' Anti-fa' for netwarfare - that could hit them where it hurts.
Yrs in struggle - Pro2rat

"On the bright side there is great potential for an anarchist news website operating out of the US."
Hey dude, take the blindfold off, you're on one now ;)

or not? And don't forget that anarchism in North America is a 'white thing.' Where are the non-white anarchists? I know of Black Rose and that's about it. I did ask Anarchist News to run white/black anarchists as a TOTW but nowt came of it and no reason was provided either! Given the increasing gap in equality, people are not turning to the anarchist perspectives; maybe this is because of the 'Slave Mentality'/Stockholm Syndrome that has been so deeply instilled in the psyche? Let's face it, most grunts I talk to are so far gone down the road of obedience, it is hardly worth expending the energy on them. Years and years of frustration has proved this, so I no longer bother. How big is the American Anarchist 'movement' and does it exist at all in the South? With America's drive on capitalism and individualism and the confusion surrounding socialism, I would North America to be 'Anarcho-Capitalists' if anything or maybe Christian Meritocratic Anarchists, if such a thing can be? How many North American Anarchists are vegan?

You understand that the "black" in "Black Rose" doesn't refer to race, right?

Is this a case of a presumably white person seeing only other white people in the anarchist space? Is this ignoring and erasing Indigenous and POC anarchists and their efforts in North America?

standard confirmation bias, features prominently in north american anarchism!

Agreed, the standard NA@ confirmation bias that when white people are involved in something and it goes wrong, it is always their fault and they have never done as much as they should have.

Or any use of identity along those lines, where you're using it to basically erase all useful information about something that did or didn't happen and why!

Q: "What went wrong?!" A: "Identity."

Conclusion: ?!?!?!?!

Ha, so true! My new favorite SJW phrase is "rampant whiteness" - amazingly bigoted and amazingly abstract at the same time.

I've not seen any hard evidence thus far that IDPol propagation is a deliberate COINTELPRO-type operation, but it's worked just as well, either way.

Yeah ... I hear that. I'm suspicious that identity has been used for demagoguery for a very long time. That's power for you, magnetic to the wrong sort of people!

“Anti-white bigotry”
Ding ding ding nazi troll alert

We had to disconnect that bell actually. Couldn't even hear yourself think around here!

Is it? I see it as a statement that (1) the NA anarchist milieu is largely white (and male) and (2) it has done a pretty bad job at embracing / supporting Indigenous and POC communities. But maybe I'm wrong?

maybe part of the problem is the incoherency of the concept of "anarchism" itself, which has room for people doing militant anti-white-supremacy work, as well as for people who denounce that work in terms little different from fox news

In a callback to last week, the above post is what you get when you allow the MSM to frame your narrative.

you have it correct. thanx

The main problem with the North American "anarchist milieu" is that is a "milieu" instead of a serious, organized movement in the first place. Check out what the FBI's website has to say about us if you don't believe me. And rather than trying to recruit "people"of color" (which is kind of patronizing) to the movement it would be better to just focus on the most pressing issues and atrocities (y'know, the GIGANTIC IMPERIAL WAR MACHINE and the police state and surveillance state) - if people see us doing things that are important, and being willing to collaborate with people besides our exact ideological clones, that would be great "PR" and would probably recruit more people (of every damn color) than the stereotypical pronoun policing and vegan fundamentalist harrassment of the mainstream anarchist paradigm does. Let's bring this stuff down to Earth once in a while, you know? Normal people are not going to embrace "fully automated luxury communism" anymore than they're going to embrace "Ancapistan." Just about everyone doesn't really like the system we live under. We don't need to require allegiance to one specific model for replacing it; that is a huge turn-off to most people.

There's always been an individualist strain to NA anarchism, going back not just to Benjamin Tucker's clique but at least to Henry David Thoreau, and (sort of) to Thomas Jefferson, even. If you want to appeal to mainstream people, talk about how the principles of classical liberalism lead logically to anarchism.

And for the love of all that is halfway non hypocritical, don't piss all over indigenous nationalism. If ANYONE has to a right to lay claim to a specifically North American anarchism, it's peoples who have been here for millenia. The whole tribal model of organization is something we can learn a lot from. Human beings may well be genetically hard-wired to live in such a way.

I'm starting to think that the online debates that constantly "nation-splain" to an indigenous strawman represent a very small but dedicated troll tendency that's pretty irrelevant once you unmask it.

Sort of a puffer fish or paper tiger, if you will.
We're anarchists ffs, we're at the front of the pack for understanding this stuff.

There's just a bit of nuance around marginalized groups and their theoretical "national identity", which is obv pretty damned different from an existing state with very real military power.

Well, there's always the problem of the worst elements of every tendency are the loudest jerks on the internet.

It's really unfortunate that "nations" is conflated with "states" in the first place. Nationalism in the Westphalian or Marxist-Leninist sense, Throwing up a flag and claiming to speak for an entire people in a given geographical area ? Yeah, bad news.

Recognising that people with a common culture, philosophy, ethnicity, etc. are a distinct group that should get to determine how they wanr to organize themselves? That is the "good" kind of nationalism and we should be all for it. Personally I think that if you have a doctrine that the ENTIRE WORLD has to adhere to, you are just another kind of imperialist. Anarcho-tribalism and secession movements are the wave of the future

Or, they could be if enough people can get over freaking out about the meaning of WORDS. Which is like the most Eurocentric thing ever, really. Not that I consider Western civilization one vast evil conspiracy or anything. I just think we should stop fighting the "war on consequences" and look to what has worked before.

Totally agree, especially with your last point. There's ancient fundamentals of forming some sort of group identity and caring for and being stronger together.

That shit is older than language so the devil in the details should be cautionary tales for HOW you go about doing it, not a question of if we should do it at all. Of fukin course we should!

It's either that or being ever more at the mercy of whatever prevailing powers. Real talk.

There's a pretty obvious reason why nationalism and nation does not jive with anarchism and anarchy that goes way back to father Proudhon. 19th century niggas got that shit right. You post-colonial idiots are the ones who are forcing an explanation. The concept of nation was never naturalized to any group outside of Europe.

I actually very much like the indigenous way or living and think it very close to the old 19th century federalist structures. THAT is what anarchos should be encouraging not Prestonian like nationalism for non whites.

You're literally calling a native person a "post-colonial idiot" while saying you like "the indigenous way of living" and accusing them of nation-splaining on top of not understanding the point they're making about essential categories being fucking stupid.

You don't even know which way is up ziggy. Fukin painful dude... But none of this will stop you from talkin talkin talkin.

If you display post-colonial idiocy I will label you accordingly regardless of your ethnicity. They're plenty of euros who suck at old archaic paganism. Why does you being a native exclude you from this possibility?

It doesn't ultimately matter, that's true but it does increase the likelihood that I've spent a lot more time thinking about this than you.

Plus, you're main problem here is that you're an insufferable dickhead while trying to talk about this stuff. You don't actually know anything about me but you keep trying to tell me what you think I think about all this.

but a bad conclusion is a bad conclusion. How bout we look at another example, Styxhexenhammer666, technically he's closer to, and thinks more on, the old euro pagan ethnicities then I am and have, but he comes to nationalist conclusions which are outright terrible and they are terrible independent of the ethnicity. Outright Nazis have done more thinking on archaic euro cultures which they call white then I have, doesn't change the fact that their reasoning sucks, doesn't change the fact that an American nationalist's positions(like Ward 'Shitting Bull' Churchill for instance) also suck.

Same anon: I haven't stated any conclusions ... Oh, except that not being condescending improves relationships. That's about the only affirmation I've made here.

You just talk past people ... And at times, it seems kinda racist but Im fairly certain you don't do it intentionally ...

"Post-colonial" anything is a joke. We are not post-colonial. A huge percentage of the world is still living under states imposed by European colonial powers, including the ones in North America. That the statist left doesn't get this is not surprising; the state is their GOD. But anarchists have been pointing this stuff out for some time now. Imperialism is still our enemy.

And I refuse to draw a magic line between "whites" and "non-whites," by the way. The whole problem with most Euro-Americans is that they don't consider themselves to be an ethnicity like any other in the first place. That any interest in European ethnicity is so demonized because the Nazis perverted it to their own ends is a great example of the radical leftist hypocrisy that we should be trying to excise from anarchism, in my loudmothed personal opinion. The seeming attack on Preston is very telling; show me a better strategist in the US. I'll wait. Pan-secessionism is like the only tactic that has a snowball's chance in hell of appealing to the normies. The point is to WIN, isn't it?

Those who imposed it are just the current power vessel. Euro colonialism is no longer really the active ingredient any longer. The more pressing problem is Leviathan and to a greater degree civilization and history. Post-leviathan is the qualitative break not post-colonialism which is still amendable to state growth and control.

I agree with you on the anti-euro double standard but that is no excuse for nationalism. The problem with Preston-who I don't shriek over like others here-is that he is too caught up in strategy and he makes alliances with people who ultimately have no interest in anarchy. Anarchy isn't really about WINNING against some alien reified belief system btw,It's simply about disassociation and power diffusion which are not necessarily chess games.

Butt that just amounts to "let's isolate ourselves into a pure sect of 100% anarchy-ists." If associating with people who don't care about the ultimate goal (of abolishing the state and preventing it's return) allows us to break up those larger power structures (you know, lkke the imperial police state) and give us spme room to actually carry out some of our ideas in the "real world," you don't think that's a worthwhile endeavor? It seems very worth doing to me. If successful, it would get millions of people OUT OF JAIL, for one thing. It would actually liberate real human beings. Anarchistic enough for me.

Anarchy is ultimately about the avoidance and undermining of a certain type of body and mind not escaping a literal prison which society and civilization isn't an actual analogue to. There's no reason to have come together of different types of people who don't like each other.

My take on anarchy and affection is that anarch influences anarchist who influences libertarian who influences society. In this chain of affection there is no need to have even an indirect relationship with the fascistic or other hierarchical types. I'm not interested in expending any energy to those I don't like or have any affinity towards.

It's not about getting out of some analogous jail, it's about successful association and disassociation.

Walls don't maketh the prison, lack of ideas does!

You refuse to "draw a magic line" but pan-sesessionism seems like a winning strategy to you?

Yes. What is the contradiction or problem here?

If you are referring to the possibility of "white separatists" forming their own enclaves...what exactly is so horrifying about that? Good riddance, right? If someone wants to only associate with people of their own ethnicity, who am I to say they can't? Freedom of association is one of the core principles of anarchism. Otherwise why not just join the Democratic Party?

Now, if we want to start freaking out about the possjbiluty of totalitarian movements taking over, well, it'd actually be EASIER to deal with any neo-Nazi (or neo-Commie) types in a decentralized context because they'd be "those assholes down the road" instead of potentially everywhere like at present. We are trapped in one big human resources department / prison / slaughterhouse, that the socialists call "capitalism," that the free marketers call "socialism," that the primitivists call "civilization," that the feminists call "the patriarchy," that the populists call "the New World Order," etc. We need to plan a prison break, not set 500 criteria for what people have to believe before they can be part of our movement.

So many assumptions ... I'm not "setting criteria" and you're only hoping that a more powerful white separatist movement would be less dangerous than the status quo.

But that's pretty stupid of you because either it would be crushed as it attempted to secede or it would have to be very dangerous indeed.

I admit I'm generalizing, because I've had these kinds of arvuments over and over, so forgive me if I'm unfairly attributing anything tp you. But it seems like you're conflating white separatism with white supremacy. Like everything else, there is a spectrum here. Someone who wants to preserve their own ethnicity is not automatically a crypto-Nazi any more than the Black Panthers were the same as Idi Amin.

Would I personally want to live in some kind of whitopiam city state? Fuck no. But do you think that the mere possibility of such a place existing is a bigger threat than the imperial police state which has killed like 25 million people and imprisons 3 million and has secret police everywhere and probably has contingency plans for killing us all? Let's not forget who actually holds power.

To play on a clever Bob Black aphorism regarding the Trotskyist/Stalinist distinction.

That's basically what it is and why they should be and stay undermined which does not have to mean constructing an elective enemy out of them(hint hint antifa). As problematic as the panthers were(and they need to be undermined as well) they did not come from a geo-political power context with such a significant leviathan footprint as compared to their white western counterparts. They don't have the same leviathan constructed identity frame of reference that white power types have.

I don't lose sleep over the odd Orania type societal arrangement that is inoculated in some small corner of the world but I'm not going to help it in anyway either. That's how they feel about my type that's how I feel about them. One good turn deserves another as the saying goes.

I'm not forgetting, don't worry. "Preserving ethnicity" is a highly suspect agenda to me and the anarchist position in general.

But my point was that nobody secedes in any meaningful way without being able to defeat the state militarily.

So that's the only way any group could claim to have done so, therefore, in this extremely implausible scenario, that group would need to have a great deal of power.

All ethnicities have a preservationist wing. If you find that so susect, fine, but to me it seems like to attack it is to play into the agenda of the imperial corporate oligarchy who want to make us all into interchangeable worker-consumer drones with no opinions.

If defeating the state militarily is that implausible, we should just give up now and join the Green Party or something. Anarchism is ultimately about fighting the state. That's the core insight, that the state is a uniquely parasitic social class in and of itself.

How can we "demand the impossible" if we won't even "consider the implausible"?

Oh I've considered it, rest assured! Fighting asymmetrically as insurrectionary guerrillas is clearly within the realm of the possible.

Openly taking and holding territory against sustained attack by a modern military is not.

Didn't the "white separatists" in the US just attempt this crap recently and their leader spontaneously grew a lot of extra holes in his body by the side of the highway.
Pew pew! Buh bye.

That's why the whole pan-secessionist plan is that we form a united front for mutual self-defense and we don't formally declare independence until we've got some kind of organizational structure in place, some commonly agreed upon ideas for what to replace this whole mess with ("voluntary city-states" is probably the easiest way of conveying it to normal people) and militias and guerilla groups with a credible plan of action and a reasonable chance of military success.

That may all take decades. What we can do about it now is to form cross-cultural and cross-ideological alliances with everyone who's not a totalitarian lunatic like the Stalinists or the Nazis. But that requires abandoing the while "only one correct line on abortions and ecology and transgender bathrooms, etc" mentality that all the jerks from 4Chan call "SJW"-ism or cultural Marxism or whatever. All that stuff is super mainstream now anyway; not that none if it's important but there's definitely a "Ship of Fools" thing going on in the US at present.

Well I don't disagree with that last part but you're completely smoking moon rocks on the viability of that scheme IMO, unless catastrophic climate change cripples the economy and spreads the military's resources thin. Then who knows?! Maybe you'll be the next big petty warlord on the block!

Well, one of the things Keith Preston points out is that street gang members outnumber the US military, so there's that possibility. The idea of forming those particular links scares the shit out of me personally, though.

I have no interest in ruling a fiefdom myself, I just think that even a bunch of little warring kingdoms could not possibly be any worse than what we have now. But really, if every major city seceded tomorrow there would be a lot more "liberal" and "conservative" ones than anything else. Most people are social democrats, of on kind or another, in my experience. Which is one of the many reasons anarchists should stop fighting with each other about relatively trivial disagreements. Because most people don't agree with us in the first place.

I'm tired and kinda veering all over the place with this. Sorry to ramble. Suffice to say I think military victory is both possible and not likely to have consequences any more horrific than maintaining the status quo will.

What a joke, this tired old binary warfare narrative taking on the most powerful military and security hegemony ever in history. Grow up, let the adolescent testosterone deplete itself in more creative ways like dating the girl next door and working at something you enjoy, and get that ideol9gical leftist revolutionary crap out of your head pronto!

It's not a maturity thing, it's just what happens sooner or later when centralized power collapses under its own weight. Certainly enough historical precedent to suggest it's inevitable. The stupidest part of your post is when you imply sex is somehow more meaningful.

The youth is the Dionysian on steroids, lacking the tactful deflection and counter-manipulation of social power by tapping into the unique inner creative expanse.

The irony of that is that I am one of the least testosterone-fueled people I know. I despise violence, and if I thought some kind of massive USSR style mostly peaceful breakup was possible, I would be all over that. But I can't see the fuckers ever giving up without a real fight. Why would they? They are not going to just stand by and let us build the "new society," they are going to try to exterminate us. At some point we WILL have to "break the shell." To quote Preston, "Forget all the utopian nonsense you've heard about nonviolence. The enemy certainly isn't going to practice nonviolence. They hate people like us and they don't want us in their empire. It's US or THEM." I wish that wasn't true, but I think it is.

And I can't in good conscience just blithely dismiss as impractical or immature the idea of fighting an empire that engages in actual genocide. How many more people in the Middle East, Latin America, Asia and Africa have to die before we're ready to stop it?

Now the more egoistic among you might say, that's a guilt trip kind of argument. But if you don't think it's in your self-interest to stop World War 3 before it happens, then you might want to reevaluate the scope of your self-interest. We may well be talking about a choice between our entire species going extinct or not.

Your first and last sentences hold the secret.
"one of the least testosterone-fueled people I know. I despise violence, " AND
" talking about a choice between our entire species going extinct or not."
Levels of testosterone and its influence on human behavior are well known, the tyrants have never had any problems recruiting the young males of the species to go to war. (Wow, sounded like David Attenborough ) Wars which in the latter part of the 20th Century brought the humanity to the brink of extinction. ( Though the worst case scenario envisioned about 10% survival rate making world population about the levels just prior to the Industrial Revolution )
There never has been nor ever will be a Utopia, laws of entropy demand something gives, whether structurally or emotionally, the decay must expell energy to create the precarious position of culture and its identity. Politicians are the parasites and leaches feeding off and sucking up the power produced by the creative desires of the positive living forces of the humans they have controlled by promising a Utopian heaven of the future. We paleo-nihilists have balances the Apollonian and Dionysian forces to attain a non-violent apolitical insurrection resembling the growth of crystals from the inside outwards in a soup of rich potential social expectancy being awoken in this era right Now.
Hail the glorious nonchalant peaceful warriors of the Paleo-Nihilist tendency!!

I don't really get what you're saying. I hope you're right, I guess? I just regard secession backed by full blown violent Revolution as the least bad option available to us.

Le Way is a troll who rambles nonsensically. Your time is currently being wasted

My motto in life "Continue loathing politicians and cuddling babies and disabled people and something good will happen to you in your life"

"Let's not forget who actually holds power."

Who... Reptilians?

Oh maybe you're referring to the JOOOOZ!!!! Them baby-eating fanatics who also torture their children for the kicks, and probably are also controlling Anews like this comment too!

I mean the system and the people who actually run it. You know, the sociopaths who have nuclear and biological weapons and such? They are the enemy. Losers like the Proud Boys and Patriot Prayer and all that do not even sort of compare.

This whole idea that "the right wing!" are the enemy instead of the imperial overlords is silly, and useful to said overlords. I mean the paleoconservatives are probably most economically left, anti-imperialist sector of mainstream US politics. A little populism goes a long way.

I don't even know what's going on with the whole "go straight to accusations of anti-Semitism" thing. I didn't even mention Zionism or anything. But I think it might serve to illustrate something well, which is that pretending any criticism of Israel and the Israel lobby is automatic evidence of anti-Semitism is a lot like pretending that any interest in European culutural and ethnic heritage is automatic evidence of Nazism, and a lot like pretending that any criticism of capitalism is automatic evidence of Stalinism.

But "the lizard people" IS a decent enough way to describe the Masters of Mankind to normal people. They are so distant from what happens on the ground that they might as well be.

i thought everyone hated vegans now because it's not prole enuf

I admit I'm going off see older stereotypes; I am not really associated with the mainstream anarchist movement since it seems like it's so infected by "Antifa" now, which is a disaster ("LEFT UNITY" = DEAD ANARCHISTS, as any cursory glance through anarchist history will reveal.)

Way to collapse history down to a rationalization for why you're a shut in lol

Well, there's also the issue of temperament. I am just not a warrior. I am a mediator type of person. Plus I have a kid, so I'm more than a little afraid of drawing too much attention to myself for fear of making said kid into a target. Which is part of why I have the utmost respect for people who actually get out there and fight in Rojava or Standing Rock, etc. at great personal risk, instead of harassing people they've decided are "fascists" for not being PC enough. But yeah, I'm a shut in, I admit it, ha

Same anon here: Fair enough! Ive done just enough child care to know it eats up most of your spare time.

A lot of the critique-is-what-I-do online crowd seem to blur the lines between what they aren't able or willing to do and what they don't want to see any value in at all.

I see a woeful lack of radicals with anything like real conflict skills and antifascist organizing as an obvious way for them develop their ability to defend themselves in the grim future rushing toward them like a speeding train.

"Left unity" is crap but people should definitely be busily replacing it with something for the sake of self-preservation.

You know there's plenty of non-dangerous subversive or disruptive things you can do with your kids. Like going for a walk in the forest removing land pickets, sabotaging stuff around, making funny graffiti... Dunno what else. You can also teach them to fire a gun and use knives and sticks properly.

Just growing vegies is insurrection. Viva la pumpkin!

strangely enough, RIGHT UNITY=DEAD ANARCHISTS as well

Which is part of why I think we should be aiming for libertarian/decentralist unity. The whole left vs. right thing is obsolete anyway.

I made it as far as pronoun policing. Yeah lets just draw similarities between cops and people who dont want you to call them something. anarchy bro.

The phrase "I made it as far as" actually means "I scanned until I found a watchword." It's indicative of extremely mediated thought, whereby any given text is quickly filed under Good or Bad, and language exists only to indicate allegiance to a particular ideology.

Thank you! Exactly. This is the kind of thing that keeps NA anarchism an angry subculture instead of a serious movement.

@ previous poster: my whole point is that equating things like people rolling their eyes at genderfluidity (which ok, is kind of a dick move) with actual police repression is the sort of false equivalence "oppression Olympics" that turns off like a zillion potential converts to the anarcho-syndicalist.


Fucking auto-correct

"There do seem to be very pronounced factions with boundaries that are impossible to cross, and squabbles that are specific to North American anarchists and that seem irrelevant. Is this specific to North America?"

Fuck no. There's plenty of squabbles in France and Greece, for instance. BUT BUT BUT what I noticed is how these tend to be more direct confrontations and less some long-range backstabbing, like call-outs and other slander campaigns. So to say, there's a culture of dealing more directly with problems, instead of cheap conspiratorial tactics done by people who're too cowardly to "get their hands dirty" with face-offs. This is endemic of more upper-class, fancy-assed kids who'd rather have "experts" dealing with dirty matters for them (cops?).

Tho I think this is related to the socio-geography. In Europe like several other regions, people are all over the place, and everywhere. You got little other choice but direct confrontation. You don't have to face things; they're already facing you. On Turtle Island we're always dealing with vast distances, so organizing anything with anyone always means travelling and/or remote communications.

Also the other big difference is that matters are being SAID, instead of hushed from behind. Perhaps that's a generalization yet in NA big cities it's pretty hard to actually discuss things as there's this culture of elusiveness and detachment. Since people are all in their bubbles it's pretty hard to put anything on the table, or convince others to do so. That doesn't happen, therefore plenty of people can be allowed to pretend being anarchos, play the game, yet be in fact posers or normies. Since nothing's being put on the table, nothing's being put to test neither.

So the only tests remain... how will you follow up on a proposal to do shit, assuming it's your kind of shit that makes sense to you? Or at least, what do you do, in your real life -beyond publications- that makes you anarchist?

(question's not addressed specifically to Notnull of course, but to anyone who's been or still floats under the black flag)

I feel my reply may not be as exhaustive as the author would have liked?

Freedom is an abstract concept, it has no real visceral significance during the course of a life, it is only an impression upon the imagination of the impossible. North American anarchists are not born free, but drag themselves up firstly against the tyranny of gravity, secondly against the tyrrany of economic destitution and thirdly against the psychologically ideologies of oppression. There is only the peace of mind of an unleashed will (a kind of freedom) awaiting.,.

Cue Le Fool trying to nail the coffin shut on this topic

Well has anyone actually defined "freedom" before I commit myself to any cause to fight or die for it. I'm merely a conscience objector, why should anyone believe in a narrative of oppression told to them by an ideologue? If I was a NA anarchist during WWII, why should I go and fight against fascists and nazis in Europe?(That's their own problem they were stupid enough to vote for these tyrants, well let them reap the consequences of their evil desires) I AM AN ANARCHO-NIHILIST, not a sausage eating wine guzzling Euro trash!! My freedom is taking orders only from my own conscience and will, not from any other claiming to be a sovereign of one State or another.

No no nien! I am part of the indigenous nihilist vanguard, Before the scourge of mythological spirituality stained the glorious Paleo-nihilist genesis, we laid down the foundation for the valiant individualist re-emergence. Hail mighty abyss dwellers, gleeful in your nothingness!

If you're looking for a specific plan of action, look up Kevin Carson's "A 'Political' Program for Anarchists," it's from the early '00s so it's kind of in that frame of reference, but considering we're still dealing wit the hell the neocons unleashed, most of it is still relevant.

I've always been confused by exactly what the ask is when people say stuff like "anarchism needs to do more to embrace POC and indigenous perspectives" or something along those lines.

Like, obviously the old-school Marxist class reduction stuff was actively shitty and adversarial towards other people's struggles but I've only heard about it from before my time, never encountered it IRL.

So aside from not doing something stupid and ridiculous like lecturing native folks about nationalism, which should be obvious, what's the ask?

how about embracing and supporting indigenous struggles, not just in theory but practice?

Now I spring the trap.

1. The person you're responding to (me) does support native struggles in the most literal sense.

2. I'm also mixed ancestry myself.

Seems like empty sloganeering. Worse, when white people try and do what you're talking about, it's usually hamfisted and painfully awkward, plus they often end up mindlessly obeying some random "elder", who's often an idiot or a demagogue or both.

Cute liberal slogan but what does it actually mean? (If anything)

It just so happens that ALL of the people I'm learning from are indigenous and POC. Race, Political Correctness, and Liberal Guilt have NOTHING to do with this. There do not happen to be any white people that MERIT study.

Study aims: 1. What is common to all largely intact (or, like the Ju/'hoansi, culturally/spiritually intact) normal (hunter-gatherer-permaculturist) human societies? 2. How did normal humans live in the ecosystem where my backwoods sanctuary will be? From both: What will outlive the Collapse and regenerate healthy human life?

Indigenous people need to be defended for universal, not IdPol reasons.

Most of the few people I've met who git any of this at a practical level are Native Americans or rednecks, not self-identified anarchists.

Ohhhh lookie here, Baaaad Kitty loves patriotic rednecks because they love their horse riding and cow punching lifestyle they share with the indigenous, WTF that is a neo-colonialist if ever I seen one yeeee haaaa boy, that explains all that spirituality you rant on about, and your homophobic disdain for the Sambians, and you simple country and western taste in music, goddamit!

is the part of the American working class with a Scots-Irish core. I'm up to 75% Scots-Irish.

I know your type yous ancestors traded whisky andrifles to the natives for beaver fur, opium and peyote!

Uh huh. Well I'm an anarchist who happens to be native and I think overly vague IdPol rhetoric isn't usually helpful. If anything, it makes relationships more awkward and performative. I also don't require your help with defense at the moment but thanks tho!

Tbf it's tepid garbage. Exactly, it is characterized by cliquish and infighting that masquerades as actual anarchism. The fact is most anarchists in NA love their servitude. They love their jobs and their colleges and they would never do anything to risk their social position. They think making a FB statement against fascism is "bold", lol. Most of them are afraid of violence and destruction. They couldn't even do a week in prison without crying. They think direct action is spray painting something. It is totally laughable.

As you'd notice they just not only spray-painted something. The devices used to enter the building were rendered inoperable.

So now let's examine your definition of "direct action". Did they had to attack the Proud Boys full front at their event with molotovs n shit? A great idea in itself, but what would have been the consequences, tuff boi, or how do you think the whole reactionary establishment would have used it against anarchists and antifascists?

Do you think I'm talking about molotoving the Proud Boys out in the open? That would be idiotic and suicidal. I think the Proud Boys are, tactically speaking, an awful target. There are actually (physically) dangerous groups out there. I could name probably 30 off the top of my head that are active and are killers in the US. That is my point. Stop going for the low-hanging fruit and taking their hats off their heads, lol. It *is* funny though. I'll give you that. Stop using the ADL and SPLC for your intelligence. Those groups are liberal jokes. You are far too emotionally triggered. Why do you feel like I personally attacked you? Tuff boi? Lol, that's just absurd. I'm pretty effeminate. I didn't define "direct action" at all. If you think I did then I don't think you really understand my point. I'm actually not trying to offend you so if I do I'm sorry.

Point of clarity, the anon you replied to (me) is not the same anon who replied to you.

I completely agree with your assessment.

The medium Proud Boy can bench press 500kg! BEWARE THE POWER OF THE BICEPS!!

Also, just FYI I'm not going to look at this thread anymore. I'd like to talk to you about what I mean but we can't. It's going into dry-snitching territory IMO. I just think NA Anarchism is very weak and the fact that you tried to insult me with "tuff boi" because of what I said I think perfectly encapsulates why it is so sad. I don't mean that as a personal attack against you but because people commonly think what I said is somehow undesirable or too masculine or macho posturing or whatever. Have a good day.

Is it me who wrote under the wrong thread, or you?

To answer the question, the differences are largely cultural and probably not related to class/race as much as people think. Once you peek beyond that people side with the pieces of anarchy they do cause of their own individual desires, whatever the hell those might be.

For anarchists who found ourselves seriously dismayed with authority from the beginning of our lives you'll probably find common ground with the same types anywhere.

Right! So again, seems like a broken equation?

Q: How can anarchists help [insert identity]?
A: Something something, embrace identity!!!

Conclusion: ...

As evidenced by this post itself, North American anarchists seem to have a hard time thinking about the features of North America itself ...instead focusing inward on a supposed milieu that is the subject of all anarchist idealism. NA anarchists talk about the whiteness and maleness of highly-visible anarchists without even pretending to compare such demographic composition with the demographic composition of the places where these anarchists are from. At the very least, it's worth noting what the demographic composition of other politically-oriented and active groups is in the given area.

The better questions to ask may be... why are so many NA anarchists from the areas they're from. I think that would explain a hell of a lot more about NA anarchism.

Geronimo flips over in spirit lodge when he hears his people speak with forked tongue like the colonialists of the old western trail.

I don't see race, gender, politics, identity, or status, I just look at a person and see a featureless ball which is either full of creative energy or toxic shit, and there are all the inbetween mixtures, and I choose who i hang with.

Neato for you but we can safely assume billions of others will continue to reify identity for the foreseeable future. Therefore, people have to deal with getting identity assigned to them in all the usual shit ways

I know of many indigenous nationalists who put children into concentration camps, all nationalist identity constitutionalism supports border construction which requires the exclusion of the Other, or else their confinement in politicized quarantine. Politics = Prisons, get over it and stop trying to create an exclusive class of indigenous exceptions to this Statist methodology, we're anarchs!

Nobody is doing that ... Nobody here anyway

Every group excludes the Other, that is a permanent feature of human social psychology. The best one can do is to try to get people to at least identify the correct enemies.

We paleo-nihilists do not acknowledge the "Other"! We do not have enemies or accept any terms referring to binary warfare!

In that case, I declare eternal war on paleo-nihilist anarchs everywhere! Have at you!

We do not care, we are nonchalant about fighting, IT IS A PETTY FLUFFLE TO US!!

... A what? Is that even a word?

Yep its a word alright, meaning small insignificant fibrous things.

Says here it means a bunch of rabbits...
Do you even care if you make sense?!

Another meaning favoured by paleo-nihilists is " random mixture of hugging, cuddling and cadoodling. A friendly gesture of love." Which we only partake of between ourselves, and not with Others. In Canada it means rabbits. Canadian paleo-nihilists break rabbits necks, mkay! Watch out Kevin J, we will fluffle you!

Oops, Derrick J!

about the USA anarchists linked to paedophilia! It's out within the next few weeks.

He should write a book about the Derrick Jensons linked to pedophilia.

Derrick you are a remnant of a bygone hippy state of mind, ITS ALL OVER DERRICK, you can't hug and love your way out of this mess, kissing babies like a good nice little politician pretending to be a loving compassionate common man doesn't work anymore, COS THEY'RE ALL BABY KILLING WAR CRIMINALS WOLVES DRESSED IN LAMB'S FLEECES sending REFUGEE CHILDREN OFF to CONCENTRATION CAMPS LYING POWERHUNGRY FAAAAAAKES !!!

come visit and feel free to tell me how I'm totally wrong about this.

we have an onion web client too: visit http://iofdnzyvag7ncw63.onion/

what port for clients? thanks

Obviously " Righteous anarchist newsmaker " and " Undercover police-officer" is just another false binary smuggled in by language to try and confuse the youthful NA-based paleo-nihilist eunuch. But no-one can ever do that. They levitate above all that 'language' nonsense, donchaknow.

Why is rich peoples solution to everything to take a trip overseas? Like fuck, you won't even talk to the poor people on your own block in a way that isn't condescending and patronizing but you wanna vacation to Greece or Argentina just to have the anarchists there tell you to stop being such a guilt-ridden bourgie fuck and actually practice what you preach even half as much you spend perfecting the optics of your anarchist persona and lining the pockets of yr landlord.

I'm always in full support of USA anarchists coming to Greece and getting that treatment. Generally afterward they become smug academics and GTFO of anarchy. But the in between is great to watch. Not to mention the few that are actually a bit more in touch with a semblance of material reality come out of those experiences much more resolute.

TLDR USA anarchists come to Greece and realize they have more in common with liberals.

Good question, I wondered about that too?! Maybe crossing an ocean makes everything seem more abstract and therefore less uncomfortable?

These poor people across this ocean seem "exotic". But crackhead dave who lives behind my shed? He just makes me uncomfortable .. one time I stepped in his poop!

Gonna poop all around your shed and make it less abstract and "exotic" :/

I don't actually have a shed Dave. Also, you're a satirical character I invented to make fun of middle class backpacker kids. But by all means, poop away! You do you.

Poopin in backpacks now Thx

My dear sassy Nina, The desire to travel overseas is not solely a " rich peoples " preoccupation, a larger percentage of the new high-credit demographic which replaced the former extinct working class are the larger group jetsetting globally these days, many being backpacking idpol with libertarian leanings or process working hacks from highly industrialized Asian nations. We paleo-nihilists believe this addiction to travel is another facet of consumerism and not driven by any quest to gain knowledge or self-enlightenment, but rather a surrender to libidinal cravings. We are content to stomp around our own immediate zone of Statelessness keeping non-nihilist activists OUTSIDE our perimeter of politic-repellant energy shield.
One only has to travel a block to the local mall to experience the exuberant cosmopolitan food and latte guzzling idpol atmosphere similar to that which eminates out of the malcontent oozing activist suburbs of Greece.

Hi Nina, gonna poop in rich peoples lattes now cos of you! Childish huh, or mean am I? Which one is it, takes some sociological analysis to work that one out. *strains into cup* Soooo freakin peurile is this culture!

In the United States, anarchism is a subcultural identity phenomenon, akin to the subcultures of people who are way into Dungeons and Dragons, or wearing a Starfleet uniform costume and Mister Spock ears at a sci-fi comic book fan convention. It is based on an ethos of personal rebellion that was annexed by consumer society decades ago. It is a phenomenon of aggressive, almost militant disengagement from the larger world around us. It doesn't generate anything of relevance to the larger world outside of the circle-A-subculture.

A measure of the consistent incapacity of this scene is the censorship practiced on this internet chit-chat board; invisible, unaccountable, no intelligible criterion other than the whims of some brave unseen insecure scenster. If this is how they act when nothing is at stake, guess what they will do if anything really mattered here. The only kind of anarchy found here is a freedom from any sort of standards.

Kropotkin said, anarchy means no rulers, it doesn't mean no rules. What do you think he would have had to say about what get's called anarchism in the contemporary United States?

Just gonna keep compulsively posting your snarky polemic to no one, huh?

spiky subcultures don't organize the military or post anti-gentrification flyers in the 80s, they don't contribute anything to the real struggle...but keating doesn't even contribute anything to spiky anarchist subcultures. i am starting to feel sad for the guy. something is really the matter with orbit, for decades, in such utter frustration. why kevin????why?????

Nailed it.

I never met any of the people who were remnants from the classical movement but as I understand it they had a pretty low opinion of neo-anarchism in general.

It's called, political struggle. real world credibility, is, for obvious reasons, a wholly alien concept to you.

LISTEN NA ANARCHISTS. You have to agree that democratic neo-liberalism, despite its glaring faults, is still better than totalitarian fascism or communism? Its a no brainer, SO WHY THE STUBBORN UNCOMPROMISING STANCE!? You still have your individuality and freedom of speech, however regulated and consumerized it may be.
NA anarchists are the most intelligent anarchists i've met thoughout my extensive world touring.

IGTT 2/10. Pathetic hierarchy of citizenship values...

You also know that the "democratic neo-liberalism", or whatever this bullshit spectacle filled with prisons should be called, is driven by totalitarian collectivistic values and a macabre State worship? Where is your individualism so big outside the farce of celebrity worship? Or are Trump and Madonna realized individuals to you?

Individualism is about owning your own life. Turns out even in neo-liberal democracies people own their lives even less than in socialist regimes. I don't see any freedom in living in rented enclosed apartments, Madonna!

How dare you address a lesbian democratic anarchist with the male chauvinist rape culture term > WTF< which is used by authoritarian manarchist men to intimidate women anarchists into a submissive role. My bisexual 1/512 part indigenous libertarian boyfriend warned me about your type, strutting around boasting about your warrior actions and dissing gay celebrities and idpol activists.
I'm an individual with 1,475 friends and comrades on Facebook who all vote for a unified anarchist party and try to elect their own congress person to take the reins and who knows, maybe oneday become the President of a United Anarchist Republic in the future.
Watch out all you fascist heteronormative Well-defined, we are on the rise!

Okay well at first your other comment looked somewhat serious. Now you made it too obvious. You're fired!

NA anarchism was hijacked by idpol, it's a convenient policymaking platform to divide populations before controlling and consoling, the old tried and tested "good cop/badcop" routine on a grand scale. Only defence is a street wise population with a psychological cynicism.

It seems uncontroversial to say that George W. Bush did a lot for NA based anarchism. Thank you George ( and Dick )

Well if only the green anarchos would have had a spine and go next level, or adjust their tactics, instead of mostly crumbling to the Green Scare. ELF almost took away the stardom from jihadists for a while. This ain't something to downplay or shy away from...

America? Really? Now get back to work and pay your taxes.

Answer I'd like to have that is roughly related to Notnull's is: is there any anarchism you know in North America which ain't defined by activism as a form of conglomerating activity, and if so, what is it?

On my part, I've been hanging out with true anarchists who're neither activist or interested in any sort of direct action n shit... who're into community projects that help bringing people together, even if within the context of toxic relationships of renting and property. While they aren't being self-conscious on the anarchistic nature of the stuff they do, their intent and will is definitely more anarchistic than the always-deceitful motivations of several of the openly-anarchists I've known. These days the true anarchists I'm dealing with are people engaged in detail struggles with their own angles of the oppressive social relationship. I try to support them religiously as much as I can since I know they wanna go someplace else than "Babylon"....

I hate to tell you doods the awful truth, but if anarchists had money, they would be popular and in the power. I thought this simple fact revealing the crass naivety of human nature was beknown to you all, alas, the wasted words and futile endeavours of the poor folk is like water running off the back of Leviathan.

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