Vegan is Anti-Speciesist is Anti-Civ

Contrary to the predatory man-the-hunter myth, hominids have innate empathy and cooperativeness that manifests idiosyncratically in civilization. One such manifestation is veganism, whose central focus is the abstention from needless exploitation of animals. But, conventional anarcho-primitivist pigeonholing of veganism into a consumerist schema has distorted its authentic essence, oversimplifying, distorting, and denouncing it. {Ironically, in practice it is the trending ‘paleo’ primitivist ideologues who engage in more destructive consumerism than even consumerist vegans, and of whom there is a void of conventional primitivist confrontation.} Veganism’s supporting principle is liberation of all animals, with its opposite being human supremacy over all other animals, or speciesism. Innate empathy and cooperation, combined with drive for liberation of all, beckons shifting the nature of humanimal-nonhumanimal relationships from domination and domestication to deferential and symbiotic. Therein veganism fundamentally becomes an anti-speciesist
viewpoint concerned not only with bred ‘pet’ & ‘food’ animals and captive wildlife, but feral wildlife worldwide. This translates into vegan/anti-speciesist deeds like releasing imprisoned animals and protecting forests
from consumeristic exploitation of fauna habitat.

Civilization has proven itself to be an ecologically destructive force, leaving all animals and all biotic-abiotic communities damaged and doomed. The repeated, hard-to-accept lesson is that civilization is the cause of the problem, and cannot be the cure. Hopes for techno-saviors have been repeatedly dashed, often causing further harm with unintended consequences. This is the merging point of speciesism and civilization premises. They are conjoined twins, born together on the artifices of hierarchy and oppression, with maddening successions of human harms along civilization’s catastrophic trek. They will be intrinsically eternally unified until their death, whether through intentional dismantling, unintentional collapse, or a combination. The conjoined counter approach calls for actions such as destroying apparatuses of totalitarian control, undoing oppression, rewilding native habitats, and rewilding self.

A word must be said to those seeking to discover and reawaken origins, striving for a future primitive. The sect of primitivism focused on ‘hunter-gatherism’ (my term) is plagued with patriarchy. Here’s an exercise to visually demonstrate the point: In your mind google ‘caveman’. Compare those images to a google of ‘cavewoman’. Scientific studies, interpretations on early humans and evolutionary narratives, from which anprims extract information to depict the primitive lifeway, are profoundly value-laden. Origin narratives are created, not objectively described realities. Hunter-gatherism naturalizes patriarchy by projecting it into our species’ origins.
Alternative narratives countering civilization’s values, such as ‘vegan primitivism’, tend to be silenced, scorned and sternly denied before due consideration. These oppressive dynamics are countered by conscientiously seeking a broader ancestral life narrative, undermining the values behind patriarchy, and rejecting the rigidity of the evolutionary normative.

Sometimes wording means much. Foraging was the mainstay of most ancestral diets, and a common female specialist activity as sex roles increasingly diverged after the advent of hunting. Many woman never participated in methodical hunting. There were swaths of time with no human hunting or foraging animals at all. Humans mainly subsisted off foraged plants, etc., especially before the systematic use of controlled fire. Yet, the term ‘hunter-gatherer’ is the generally accepted norm connoting the early human foodway. The term ‘forager’ would more accurately reflect the lived egalitarian experience of the vast majority of early humans. Another exercise: Imagine you had been born into a world where all humans had a plant diet. Would you have an impulse to bring back hunter-gatherism, or would you put that in a category similar to other early ‘natural’ doings, like
cannibalism, or rape, or infanticide? Cherry-picking an animal-based diet from diverse past diets because you have been enculturated to prefer it, and regardless of environmental impact, is the mindset that led toward
devastating civilization to begin with.

Earth needs an intuitive yet smart approach from fighting yet giving humans today. Adapting anti-civ, anti-speciesist veganism in today’s degraded wild world calls for an adaptation in our bio-culture that protects remaining habitats, ends causes of civilization’s harms, and helps heal Earth. If a highlight of our species is our ability to adapt to our environment, may we select ways from our origins that enrich an ever-thriving wild future.
Read the title again. The logic works in reverse as well.
-Ria Del Montana

For more information/resources visit:
- https://femprim.wordpress.com/
- http://layla.miltsov.org/
- http://theferalspacecollectivexvx.blogspot.com/
- https://uncivilizedanimals.wordpress.com/
- http://www.directaction.info/
- https://thefinalstrawradio.noblogs.org/
- https://unsettlingamerica.wordpress.com/
- http://www.blogtalkradio.com/iamresistancetalkradio/2017/02/19/i-am-
resistance-- talk-4-2017
- https://veganarchoprimitivism.com/2016/09/27/ria-on-which-side-podcast/
- https://veganarchoprimitivism.com/2017/01/24/3-cases-for-indigenous-
veganism/

At least once a day, I have to just rub my nipples while thinking about how much I hate America and LOVES ME some full blown gay communism! Mmmhmmm...

BEWARE! WE paleo-nihilists will have YOU gay communists toiling in OUR vegetable gardens and kitchens!

Ria should interview A! on his anti-anti-civ and anti-Veganism. Do it!

Yeah do it, but head to head matchup. Gloves off!

Ria is a foraging folio-frugivore subcategory vegan. She clashes with vegans just as much as she clashes with hunter-gatherers. And she does forest restoration, which you’d think would be a unifying factor for most people, but she critiques the crap out of permaculture. She’s the most contrary person I know. Oh and if you’re not a primitist anarchist, you’re not anarchist. Plenty to explore on the podcast.

Ria on the podcast or it will be anarchy!

Ria’s main website. This is only her writings and gives an idea of her perspective applied to a variety of topics.

It's interesting that with more and more people turning vegan, the demand for meat and exploitation of animals is increasing to absurd proportions. Vegan ideologue OP that's proselytizing here should look into if the numbers of exploited and slaughtered animals actually decreases.

I don't see how OP's particular brand of veganism is anti-civ, or even anti-capitalist at the least.

i'm not the OP but i think people who leap to brand veganism as a "not effective enough tactic as a consumer boycott" have revealed how constricted their own thinking is.

i have said this elsewhere but to summarize - i am not a vegan because i think it will change the world; i am vegan because it changes *me*....anarchists, much as anyone else who wants to change the world for the better, ought to take ethics a lot more seriously. it's not about 'purity' either but about facing up to the consequences of our actions, taking them seriously and behaving accordingly. not to mention taking our health seriously!

sure the world might be way better if everyone was vegan, just like it might be great if everyone was anarchist. but is that really the point of why we make the choices we do about how we live our lives? it seems insane to think of everything as just a tactic against the world and neglect how the choices i make and actions i choose shape me as a person on a deeper as well as immediate level.

I agree. By the way I found these in case anyone is a fan of zines. This site popped up as a suggestion on a forum and I have been downloading some.

https://warzonedistro.noblogs.org/post/2017/09/09/veganism-from-a-nihili...

https://warzonedistro.noblogs.org/post/2017/09/09/vegan-means-attack-fom...

"constricted thinking" in this sense, means constricted by efficacy? By practicality? By moralism? Why is it a "constriction" to look at whether your actions will have any effect on the larger world around you, as opposed to the personal level?

I'd prefer that anarchists "shaped themselves deeply as people" with practicalities. Doesn't seem "insane" to me at all.

Yeah cus uh... internalized hierarchical thinking in the form of human supremacy which manifests its speciesist worldview is a very practical "Anarchist" way of interacting with (objectifying) other beings.

There is nothing practical about combating some forms of oppression while preserving others. The whole ship needs to sink. It's either anarchy or liberalism. Destroy the logic of hierarchical control and domination or go vote.

Yeah ... Cuz that's totally what I said. Guess ignoring questions and ranting in to a mirror is your M.O.?

My misinterpretation. I apologize.

Dear Ria,

I like your point that people jumping to re-enter a "paleo" lifestyle do so at grave risk, given the vast impacts of the consumeristic activity of everyone else. Here, veganism stands in contrast as a conscious moral decision to reduce those impacts as one step toward a more harmonious existence. I think that is correct and commendable.

I would offer some caution however on your critique of hunting and gathering. Of course the label hunter-gatherer is fraught with problems. Your point that hunter-gather-ism is attempting to naturalize patriarchy may be true as it is an "ism." However, hunting and gathering people enjoy and enjoyed greater gender equity than our current society. Many of these societies also exhibit matriarchal social and political organizations.

See https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/may/14/early-men-women-equal-sc... for some info.

Incorporating this data into your critique may strengthen its reasonableness and persuasiveness.

All the best!

“I would offer some caution however on your critique of hunting and gathering. Of course the label hunter-gatherer is fraught with problems. Your point that hunter-gather-ism is attempting to naturalize patriarchy may be true as it is an "ism." However, hunting and gathering people enjoy and enjoyed greater gender equity than our current society. Many of these societies also exhibit matriarchal social and political organizations. “

There are examples in both directions. I’ve recently been getting more in touch with my civilized human lens in applying concepts such as patriarchy to humans living wild lives. Do you have thoughts on this?

"Many of these societies also exhibit matriarchal social and political organizations."

if you think matriarchy is any more liberating that patriarchy, you must have problems with anarchy.

Richard Wrangham's book is well worth reading as he practically only one of a few people who have considered the impact of cooking has had on the earth. Cooking together with the controlled use of fire for other purposes and agriculture has created rampant fertility, too much free time, human dependence on fire/cooked foods, extinction of nonhumans due to increased hunting etc. Without cooked food, we probably would never have evolved and the earth would be in better shape too. Rampant fertility and free time due to faster digestion of greater amount of calories due to cooked food has enabled humans to make nuclear weapons and create billions of humans. Once we are extinct, so will be the controlled use of fire....until next time!!!! Really good section on raw foodists too. Vegans may need to be thinking about the role of cooked food not just the senseless killing of billions of nonhumans.

Blaming fire is part and parcel of primitivisms ridiculous habit of constructing an originary problem as opposed to just arbitrating and postulating from a given problem.

Also, go look at Mars sometime, no complex species being(as far as we know) and it's got considerable less information life systems going on then earth. Nothing this sperging hominoid will do bring earth to the level of Mars. While I broadly agree with Gaia hypothesis, the earth is not literally hurting nor feeling any kind of meta level pain. The sentient lifeforms are the nervous systems and they all have their own sentient powered interests.

Every kitchen is hell's kitchen, every BBQ is burning at the stake, every smorgasbord is a massacre, and Thanksgiving is Auschwitz!

Has anyone really taken the time to investigate the number of pigs are slaughtered every week. One million approximately, THAT'S FUCKING AUSCHWITZ NO MATTER WHAT ARGUMENT TO DENY IT!
I'm the recipient of a transplanted organ from a pig, THEY'RE LIKE MY BROTHERS!
They have mothers and sisters and relationships, but they are locked in prisons and tortured everyday, AND YOU MEAT EATERS CALL YOURSELVES ANARCHISTS!
SHAME ON YOU!

have you both agreed and arranged to do a podcast discussion? No one wants a snark fest with each having digs at the other. It would be an excellent podcast expressing how to work together yet disagree on some points. Has any contact been made by Aragorn!?

the entitlement is strong in this one.
here's an idea, how about you write an essay for anews in which you talk about the imagined conversation between two people with different takes on veganism. then let people WHO WANT TO comment on this essay.
and stop demanding other people do whatever you want...
just a thought.

What does any of this have to do with Aragorn? Surely he only wants to marginalize the vegan position.

converse...that's the point of the request! Getting my imagination is just that: getting my imagination. There are other requests on this thread too and Ria wants to do it too.

when you could do something interesting yourself.
the point is not sounding petulant and spoiled.
the point is putting your own effort into the game, rather than making other people more important than you are.

As I said, others have asked for the conversation between Ria and Aragorn! including Ria. I will add (or not) to 'the game' as you frame it, if and when. The point is that Ria submitted their piece and many have responded and have asked for Aragorn! and Ria to have a discussion. Who knows, from there, I may have I wish to add.

so you're just the voice of the people, then? representing those who can't speak for themselves as forcefully and directly as you can? that must be nice for them, that you'r here to do the heavy lifting.
you may take these set of responses from me as being addressed to those people as much as to you.
get a life. make your own points. stop waiting for/DEMANDING other people be interesting for you. be interesting your own damd self.

or you are writing thinking you are representing him? Please remember, and I shall remind you, that Ria has said, on this very thread, read it for yourself, that she wants Aragorn! to do a podcast with her. I'm not demending this happens of course, I am merely supporting Ria in her request and I am supporting Aragorn who states he enjoys having conversations with people he disagrees with or who disagree with him. Can you comprehend this or do I have to repeat myself yet again?

i'm definitely not representing anyone. i m in fact EXPLICITLY talking about NOT REPRESENTING people
ria stated her request, so you don't need to speak for her. you certainly don't need to be urging aragorn to do something he already likes to do. basically, you're making demands and then pretending that you're doing it for other people's benefit.
i have a bug up my ass about this because i'm sick of people acting like other people are responsible for entertaining them, or having conversations for them, or whatever. anarchist celebrity nonsense is just as bad as other celebrity nonsense. go watch a kardashian video or something and keep that shit off anews.
also, you repeating yourself is indeed unnecessary. do please stop.

You need to sort out that bug up your ass although I do find you entertaining. That bug is controlling you and is making you respond to my comments. Keep out, it really is none of your business.

what do you think about his thoughts that the division of labour is not down to agriculture but what happened way before then with the advent of cooking? Primmies typically claim that agriculture is the 'culprit;' I have never heard Wrangham mentioned by JZ in his radio show nor by KT is his B&GR podcast. Wrangham doesn't think vegans could exist in the wild either: that veganism requires the industrialised gathering and redistribution network to provide all the nutrients all year round, what do you say to that?

Much appreciation for spotlighting “the role of cooked food” as a major catalyst on humans’ over-adaptation into the invasive colonizing species that we’ve become. I wholeheartedly agree that moving away from cooking toward raw foodways is a rebalancing step away from calamitous hierarchy, man’s rule & ruin over earth.
And yeah, I totally agree that cooking boosted especially sexual division of labor, perhaps more so than agriculture. Regarding vegans’ ability to exist in the wild, I think there is heavy hunting & meat propaganda strewn throughout anything mainstream and almost all sciences that places the question there to begin with. Our species’ notoriously adaptive abilities apply to our diets as well. While our species is currently broad-stroked as ‘hunter-gatherers’, many have never fit into this label, and the deep history is misconstrued. For example, a recently discovered DNA study revealed that: “there was no such thing as a typical Neanderthal diet. One individual from Spy cave in Belgium mostly ate meat like woolly rhinoceros and wild sheep, as well as some edible mushrooms. But two individuals who lived in El Sidrón cave in Spain seemed to be entirely vegetarian. The team couldn’t find any traces of meat in their diet, which consisted of mushrooms, pine nuts, tree bark, and moss. The Belgian Neanderthals hunted; the Spanish ones foraged.” https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/03/neanderthal-dental-p...
Humans came out of the trees as foragers for millions of years, then scavengers, and only rather recently began increasingly incorporating organized hunting, perhaps not ironically at a rate correlating with species die offs.
In order to visualize a world where humans live homeostatically with others, in their habitat, without their overadaptive inventions that resulted in this ‘progress trap’ misadventure, we need to visualize a world with far fewer of our own. If all humans went vegan in an instant they could not sustain themselves on a raw diet. . If all humans went ‘hunter-gatherer’ in an instant they could not sustain themselves on their diet. The reason is the same. Our species has overpopulated and decimated the wild that is the source of their and other wild animals’ food. If we do not choose and take action away from our ‘progress’, we are bound for a massive die off of our species, along with the die offs we’re causing others. Either way, there will be a time of transitionary diets. My belief is that if we do not reconnect with our natural compassion and symbiotic lifeways, we will be forever in our own web as invasive colonizers, to the detriment of ourselves and others.
I see humans as innately compassionate and instinctively striving for symbiosis with living communities. Some humans worldwide somehow manage to remain in touch with their compassionate nature by attempting to resist mainstream cultures’ harrowing relations with other animals by living vegan. I hope this realization replaces mainstream’s notions of ‘hunter gatherer’ origins used to justify the madness.
Dear Aragorn, Again, I’d be happy to talk with you about veganism if you feel inspiration for it. I’d also love to talk about how humans can interact with wild indigenous struggling and lost habitats in healing ways. You’d have to tone down your well-read intellect to bridge our minds. I think there’s a calling for this discussion because there’s a void of it. And there’s avoidance of the void because it’s so contentious. A question for you: Would you agree that vegans have been illogically misconstrued, overgeneralized and villainized by many anarchists?

Ria, you fascinate time and time again. Aragorn, will you accept this discussion with her?

Ria vs Aragorn Anarcho-Primmie vegan debate! Let's go!

not for a debate, but a discussion of these ideas that are admittedly vital, this coming from a meat eater. At this point not having Ria on the show is almost like sensorshp. Who’s afraid of these ideas?

Aragorn & I plan to podcast. I just requested that ANews readers have an opportunity to submit questions for us to choose from to mull over. Hoping to get your questions in the next few days. More of a discussion than a debate.

Thanks for thinking.

For Aragorn: How is the adherence to a culture of objectifying non-human animals (which socially serves as a moral justification for their domination and consumption) compatible with a nihilist hostility towards culture and authoritarianism?

Even if hunters and gatherers did consume them once upon a time, nihilist anarchy is not about re-creating a past existence, but meeting every form of supremacy, day by day, (in this case human supremacy) with destructive confrontation.

Hope yall discuss this *fingers crossed and shit*

stop? And why be snarky to vegans?

motivator...a catalyst for westerners in particular to consider and change their behaviour including conspicuous consumption and human/nonhuman relations? Gary Francione is a great believer in 'if we can get people to really think about what we put in our mouths, this could be the in-road for possible other needed behaviour changes? (An aside; Will Zerzan put in his usual snarky veiled remarks as this challenges his life's work?)

I believe the question should concern what is placed in the other important orifices on the body, whether fetishes or addictions, if one is to REALLY impact the Western capitalist consciousness, not only just food.,.

60 mins, if there enough discussion between you both then make it a longer podcast or spread the discussion over two podcasts. RevLeftRadio is now putting out podcasts of two hours and more without losing quality of information sharing. I genuinely want to hear Aragorn!'s vegan history, so do share your story. Personally, I don't get how any anarchist cannot be vegan. Wrangham's book on cooking and the impact on life from the controlled use of fire; fertility and calories and low birth rate. cooking food and eating flesh made us this hyper predator human which has destroyed so much

Its an informal paganism and veganism which paleo-nihilists live by, a day by day opportunism which allows for the random discovery and consumption of meat from a fresh carcass or eggs found whilst browsing for fruit or berries. Things forbidden to the orthodox vegan to eat comes secondary to the process of acquisition, whereby no creature is captured, frightened or killed for the purpose of food consumption, but if it is handed to one on a plate without any previous plan or intention, then it is a gift to be taken. This is not Auschwitz nor the supermarket, but random roadkill one happens to stumble upon.

Sweet! This includes human animal carcasses as well correct?

Yup, we Paleos aren't fussy when we're starving to death!

Maybe because you're a slow-witted liberal!?

Consumption habits of a single person are irrelevant to mass-industrial processes of production, outside of some liberal reformist facade improvement. If analyzing the quality of Aragorn's shit turns you on, that's your thing and I can't judge you, tho.

This just won't change the ever-expanding soy, corn and palm industry that's devastating the planet just as quick as cattle production. Most of it is to feed humans or produce "green" fuel solutions.

Funnel vision is your issue, liberals. Don't confuse it for a superpower, ya!

the myth that soy, corn and wheat are mostly grown for humans? Wrangham states that cooked plant foods are fed to fatten up cattle, as cooked food contains more calories due to, in part, being much easier on the digestion and refined foods are also digested much more easily resulted in less calories being used up: allowing greater weight gain: to summarise, refined cooked plant foods are fed to cattle so that the dickhead at 22:19 can eat flesh. Cooked refined food also increases the cows fertility where the dickhead at 22:19 can drink the calf's milk produced by the rape of the cow. Anarchists, if they understand oppression at all, ought to understand the pyramid of predation which Layla AbdelRahim so eloquently speaks of. What really does my head is that so many anarchists (so-called) are thick as fuck, believing there are no rules etc. I can understand why, as anarchists get older, they leave the space because it full of fucking idiots who don't read up, critique etc etc. JZ likes to make snide comments about the amount of soy that is planted: blaming vegans for the destruction of the Amazon. He has said this on several occasions on his show even though he knows it to be a lie.

Please Ria and Aragorn! could you both also explain why the letter A in anarchism is surrounded by the letter O: that Anarchism means Order not order-less.

To Aragorn!, regarding Bolo Bolo; Kropotkin had this idea also: that anarchist communities could be set up whereby individuals can travel to, settle for awhile or even stay. This relieves the pressure where there is animosity: that any person can move away for a few days etc. The reason why so many intentional communities split is due to personality differences/cracks in human relations.

You might not care about this reply as this is apparently a one-on-one addressed to A!, yet "cracks human relations" aren't exactly the reasons why these communities no longer exist in some areas. Cracks, maybe only in the sense of a historical discontinuity in passing a tradition from a generation to the next, yes... but you forgot that in the time of Kropotkin you didn't had plenty of snitching and overwhelming policing you got today.

So the anarchist communities of today in some Western countries can only be understated or unconscious. Putting the @ label is not only counterproductive due to attracting many first-level dogmatists, but also at attracting the attention of the popo.

Oooooooooh my... trololol much!?

Chaos has always been the best negative pretext for building order. You leave the door open in wintertime... some civilized, orderly Christian do-gooder will shut it off for you!

I love the mental gymnastics you just went through to reduce vegan anti-speciesism to a liberal idea. As if anarchist vegans don't exist, and as if there arnt vegan anti-civ anarchists who reject agriculture as well. Talk about "funnel" vision. You have *tunnel* vision. Keep justifying your authoritarianism with mute anti-liberalism.

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