TotW: Figuring It Out: What happened; What to do

Inspired by a few things, including the Facebook supreme court thing (which is a private corporation setting up a tribunal that may or may not be independent but is trying to be, to oversee the private corporation and set standards that might have much wider ramifications), some not-anarchist drama that might as well be, and some past personal experiences--what do you think are the best/worst ways to a) gauge whether someone has done something that they deny doing, b) respond to said something, if it was in fact done?

While we all have our own kneejerk tendencies when hearing these stories, especially online, especially with people we don't know, we can all (I hope!) agree that there are people who are hurt needlessly by others, and there are people who are accused of things that they didn't do, and we will all, at some point in our lives, be put in the position to figure out how to know which is which, with people we actually know (perhaps even ourselves).

A) What are processes that have worked in your life when someone was accused (or not accused) of nefarious behavior, to determine what happened (or didn't happen)? What systems have you heard about or imagined that might work better than what you've actually experienced?

B) For the part of the conversation that is post-guilt-determination, let us get the obvious responses out of the way, because there are many that *are* obvious and so have little to teach us: direct physical confrontation by the survivor(s) or allies, spreading the story (aka rumor-mongering, for anyone who is too far afield), shaming of various sorts, ostracization, etc. Someone a couple weeks ago mentioned an instance of what we might call baby-sitting (not allowing the perpetrator to be alone with any potential victims). What are other options that prod one's imagination?

There are 91 Comments

Anarchist forensics?
That’s what the “a)” prompt makes me think of.
Any forensic criminologists or private investigators in the house?

there's a whole skillset that's lazily associated with law enforcement and man oh man, is it embarrassing to watch some anarchists pretend they can just dismiss investigation as "cop shit" and pretend that every person on earth doesn't use stuff like deductive reasoning or collecting multiple opinions to gauge honesty ... every day.

like, people use casual forms of this stuff every day but you can up your game easily enough with a bit of reading and practice. none of it is rocket science, most people who work in the security industry are dumb as shit and rarely have more than a few dozen hours of actual training.

i would even go so far as to argue that this stuff is a good example of exactly how a "subculture" is a pathetic parody of a functional political movement or tendency, when people are more concerned with "behaving like a cop" (whatever the fuck that even means) than they are with establishing a factual account of a serious transgression so it can be dealt with in a reasonable way.

don't like it? fight me. haha

anyway, so yes. anarchist forensics should definitely be a thing imo. just like anarchist food production or anarchist medical training or any other essential function within a social group. it's all about HOW you do it with as little coercion as possible.

how defensive of you. i would not prescribe against anarchists pursuing inquiry into the field of forensics. of course you can learn from all field and disciplines. do you propose an anarchist university or anarchist trade school? how CNT-FAI of you.

yet i don’t share the urge to replicate each and every one of our current society’s structures, institutions, services and roles, but rebranded as anarchist, in a fantasy where we all live in an anarchist town diorama. we don’t have enough anarchists to go around for that, not even if we put together all the factions that are in complete disagreement and mean different things by it. reminds me of old west town tropes where the bartender is also the sheriff and the judge.

if you attempt to construct a society in practice you will end up with what we’ve got. anarchists are barely capable of being an element of defiance within existing societies, a marginal and recuperable one at that. i’m not preoccupied whether they’re the model constituents of a new model of society.

that said, group therapy mediation restorative/transformative justice struggle sessions are doable. liberal hippies are at the forefront. they should write a grant proposal to defund police and get those funds to pay for the training, capacitation, workshops, awareness raising, community engagement, incentives to assist regularly, child-care during the sessions.

wow, you're really talking past the other person here, huh? lot of assumptions lol

especially love this crap

"if you attempt to construct a society"

who the hell said anything about that? way to subculture instead of reading or thinking


fingerprints, DNA, etc., you can't ever really know for sure who in the he-said she-said cycle is telling the truth. There are even problems with the use of DNA evidence, for example, crime scenes get contaminated.

When it comes to the news, when someone is making accusations of harassment/abuse/etc., i tend to feel uncertain about what actually is going on unless there are multiple accusers, then it seems rather ridiculous to think the accusers are totally mistaken or making it up.

But even then, there could be a conspiracy whereby multiple accusers are coached on the same lies.
There is only the infallible judgement of the penetrating stare of certain people I will call the pure of heart who can read the human face like a dictionary.

Imagine sourcing "Reason"... from 2018... to try and make your incel, MRA point...

As the article below seems to indicate...however, I think multiple accusers is pretty damning, yet my opinion shouldn't count for anything or lead to any sort of verdict. Its just judgement I will make in terms of my own analysis/self-preservation...

"multiple accusers is pretty damning"

Yes, kangaroo courts are infaillible, and herd mentality follows the highest standards of reason and fact-checking... Whoever disagreeing had better be an abuse enabler or an oppressor himself!

"Witch hunts" and how did they work, back in the days. Or how they still work today.

who you don't know, it's an accusation, then if there's multiple accusers, the story gets more complicated. As someone who's totally not involved you can maybe start piecing together information at this point. I was reading about the recent Marilyn Manson accussations, and sure maybe the victims are telling the truth, maybe not, but it definitely seems like he would do those things...i can never be sure of the information i get because it's all based on algorithms anyways. Sounds like very crazy stuff all the time.

Like i said, the things i hear about don't count for much of anything, but then i did hear it...overall it's pretty shocking how misleading headlines tend to be in general. Judgement doesn't really mean a whole lot to me. The more people who get involved with the conversation also means that there will be more mis-information.

i don't really understand what the difference between the salem witch trials is back then than all the different types of tribunals and courts now adays. Yeah sure, "God is dead" but, come on. Everyone hears something else about somebody and they totally believe it.

“There is only the infallible judgement of the penetrating stare of certain people who I will call the pure of heart who can read the human face like a dictionary “

Lol! Where can I find these sages?

fuck the tools of the state. DNA doesn't work that well
etc, even though people act like it does because they want to BELIEVE
and we all know about problems with normal trial/etc tactics too.
really what works best is knowing the people involved, preferably on both sides, so that there is context re: who they are, what they tell you, etc. but we live in a world of strangers...

Yeah, see, that’s the thing. Sometimes you gotta solve problem A before you’re in position to solve problem B or C.

Until problem A gets solved... maybe just make a point to just not date or sleep around within the anarchist milieu? I feel like that alone if taken on principle would help us evade a lot of these issues that undermine our attempts to build a community, with which we could then solve these problems according to your idea.

No Idk, I just think the milieu has a lot of maturing and long term getting-to-know-itself to do. I’m just spitballing.

But but what if you happen to fall in love? Or just get a persistent boner on someone? Does this mean our love would be impossible!?

So if you really wanna go at the roots go at the roots. The real "A" would be probably the way we're relating to each other sexually within anarchist circles, how this appears to be not much (at least not radically) to the intercourse "outside" the milieus, or how we've been neglecting an opportunity to redefine intercourse, as we allowed Fourth Wave feminist/liberal ID pols to be the dominant morality.

So for starter, the way some regular here has been pushing for nudism was maybe one of the relevant ways to address the issue. But still if anarchist milieus start adopting the clothing-optional subculture this might also further multiply the sexual-based accusations.

So I know this is going into the rather vast chapter of anarcho sexuality, but it's an elephant in the room you just can't avoid.

yeah but who even brought up DNA testing?! lots of anarchists running around with too much faith in DNA tests where you live? wtf anons ...

And I dont know hardly any anarchists, but yes there are scientific methods which can be used to help determine what happened in a given scenario. My only point was that anarchists typically dont have access to the tools the state has, so we then have to rely on intuition and what we know about the existing parties in a dispute, which overall may be dismal and troubling.

I never said that I embrace the court system, but i tend to operate on the assumption that more information is better.

sure ok but perhaps this is a bit of a hollywood misapprehension of how investigation works? most of it is really simple shit that doesn't require fancy tools like in the cop shows.

lots of the time, they just go around, asking people what happened, use deduction to look for flaws in people's memories, try to discern why somebody might be lying, etc. anyone can do this stuff. oh, also they never learn what actually happened, the majority of the time haha

most "crimes" never get "solved".

Or sensationalize anything. On the contrary, you seem engage in the typical reductionism and interpretive laziness that I often see on here.

Anyways, let me further spell out what I mean:

-DNA testing is pretty much always a complicated and expensive process unless you rob a DNA lab, or find some place to buy lab equipment cheaply.

-if normal people engaged in a lot of the types of activities that the police engage in, it would be a criminal offense. Imagine if I drug your stupid ass down to my house and locked you in a cage. Not only would I have to worry about the neighbors, I might end up feeding you and cleaning up your shit.

Stop with your fucking ableist crap. Not everyone enjoys "the excitement of crime". I dont want to have to take showers with other dudes either. Also, living in accordance with an anarchist perspective isn't necessarily that easy either.

you seriously leave up this troll garbage but dont let anyone challenge it? disappointing.

i don't think calling it 'a pathetic attempt' or 'the stupidest discussion' (it is both) and them 'sweetheart' (perhaps they are) constitutes a "challenge" to it.

please do actually challenge it. because it is indeed pathetic and stupid.

well I could point out why it was stupid if you feel that's necessary but like, every. single. thing. they said was so exactly wrong and not what I was talking about that I assumed total bad faith? also they're throwing around light banter about imprisoning me?

i'm impressed by the hardcore commitment to substantive content. I withdraw my objection.

"this is ridiculous
Submitted by anon (not verified) on Mon, 05/10/2021 - 07:58

fuck the tools of the state."

That comment was in response to my comment, and my comment was in response to whole subject matter of anarchist rehab, forensics, and justice. You were responding as if i was cheeleading any of that crap.

Whelp! Thanks for validating my opinions! I'm well aware of how "i am rediculous", but that's not what i was saying, senor hollywood


again ... no. not what I said at all. you should probably ask more questions instead of assuming.

I was only talking about how anarchists shouldn't cede entire skillsets to the forces of the state. tools are just tools. DNA testing isn't even an important tool of most investigation, it's rarely used, in highly specific situations. most of the time, you just talk to people, try to figure out if anyone's lying, etc.

Yes sure, and finger-printing is rarely used, everyone immediately snitches on everyone else, human nature and hours of interrogation is all that's needed!
* gleaned from lying on a mattress watching midday Hollywood Hawaii Five O, Miami Vice, CSI reruns on a 12 volt portable TV in the back of a pick-up truck under a plastic tarpaulin*

I think some SJW fanatic who's also Raddle mod might be hanging out here...

Obvs this ain't Raddle. How fortunate that Anews is the rare outlet with anon commenting and yet with a pretty balanced moderation. Anarchistic in itself!

every moment is an opportunity to have a wondrously beautiful experience. If you are sick of getting deleted/canceled, try washing your hands instead...Not to cleanse yourself of any dangerous viruses, but to feel the soothing soap and water caressing your dermis!

accusation on my part, the "person" seems to be a huge lover of "real action" and "work", which to me is totally an ableist trope.

ya got me. saw right through to my secret self that only posts my thinly veiled ableist hate, all day, e'ry day!

can't sneak my bullshit past you tho! yer too smrt! now I'm off to mock more marginalized ppl!
makes me feel like a big maaan!

*swoops away using a badass grappling hook*

> implying that differently-abled people can't do real action or work
your accusation is ableist

other people say.

When bad readers expect other people to "read into things"....

oh, but GOOGLE! I can always find out what things REALLY MEAN through google! Able-ism only refers to people with "REAL", i wouldn't be surprised if you were a lawyer.

what about rumors and exaggerations about things that someone has actually done and doesn't deny? there's no way to counter the rumors and exaggerations without retraumatizing the victim(s) and perpetrator(s) with some kind of community-wide confrontational setting -- euphemistically called "restorative justice." maybe there should be some kind of semi-private mechanism akin to mediation. just thinking out loud, because really, who gives a shit about the moral judgments of a bunch of shitty anarchist LARPers?

transformative justice is confused as a form of mediation by the uninitiated, which annoys the practitioners and proponents of transformative justice. since mediation is more well known and there are enough similarities, the comparison is obvious for people, but it’s different. it’s much more involved, long term and mentally, emotionally, and time consuming. it aims to become one of the central aspects of a community. it will burnout those more willing and compliant with it, while not affecting those who will not comply with it from the start. since it operates parallel to existing justice system, it will default to that when it becomes overwhelmed.

Seems like many of the problems the post describes (and much of what anarchist theory around these topics) involve notions of justice that center around supposedly unbiased third-parties, and outcomes that ultimately favor the well-being of cOmMuNiTiEs right?

Instead of figuring out the specifics of how to be the most unbiased/nonviolent/amoral/moral authority a third person can be, couldn't we try to imagine ways that we, as people who sometimes have our wills repressed through the use of violent force, can reclaim the our own strength after it has been taken away, and specifically how that can be done outside of the social realm? I don't need a binding arbitration to decide the best recompense for myself as the victim of violence, all I need is some empowerment and maybe a hammer. If I tell my friend that I need help, maybe they'll give me a hand in empowering myself through rectifying action, but I don't want my pain to be taken from me by some mass of others, who will surely leave their grubby fingerprints all over it. I want it to be mine to address.

totally fair but even then, it'll probably still take circles of supportive individuals around you to keep you out of jail and watch your back for reprisals? but yeah, those people are probably doing it wrong if you don't feel your agency during the uhm ... process of addressing your grievance?

Not necessarily. Rarely does someone aiding me in my... process of addressing my grievance require them to be fully engaged in my cause. However, I certainly wouldn't call on someone who's conflicted about who to believe like it's some kind of nuclear family divorce and they are the children. Perhaps they will be too hung-over or not interested and won't aid me, which brings us closer to the conversation I'd like to have, about capability. Lastly, I will reiterate that this seems to be an issue of scale, and my response to scale of any kind is gtfo!

ha! fair enough. but just the same, I wish anyone in a situation like that, circles of people that truly have their back. small scale ones! tiny little circles, as you like.

It’s impossible. There is no solution to a problem like this.

Date within the scene at your own risk.

what's impossible? to avoid hurt? to avoid accusation? to figure out what happened between other people? do do something good with fucked up situations?

what does that have to do with anarchist scenes? one of the links in the OP is not in the anarchist scene at all.

and giving up isn't exactly an option, so super confused right now.

Another anon here. What the anon is saying is that human nature, its instinctual and experiencial knowledge and the physiological drives make sex, the raw euphoria of its climax, and the will to reproduce, make dating a risky business, a lotto.
Both individuals are pursuing a "good-time", and this has difference meaning and expectations for any one person. Either celibrate or celibate (pun intended), that is basically the bottom line, because remember, as Sartre said, "people are hell".

It’s like, “don’t shit where you eat”. Haven’t you ever heard the arguments people make about why you shouldn’t date anyone at your workplace? Well, they’re basically saying that it’s the same diff. Also, the totw pointed out that it’s not anarchist (but may as well be). Do what you want tho.

you shouldn’t date anyone at your workplace...

" " " " at your school...

" " " " from the milieu...

" " " " from the park...

Sooo... where are we supposed to date, then?

> nacheavs

it's Nechayev.

Misspelling is other people.

different folks transliterate it differently.

but yes, your point stands.

“Soooo... where are we supposed to date then?”

Um... Tinder/Bumble? Lol

The industrial revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for my dating life.

I even tried reading books about writing dating profiles, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. You have to come up with this perfectly funny profile, or choose the right site for what you want, or realize "you're not that type of person", or stick to the 70 bout you and 30 bout them, or just stop caring about anything that involves other people.

No, the quote is "Hell is other people", meaning that relationships have a binary nature which are always bound to end in conflict. Thus rape or divorce. Rather, one should celebrate celibacy because it will save one from the binary hell of any relationship, whether it be rape or even convivial marriage.

WTF --"the binary hell of any relationship, whether it be rape or even convivial marriage" This comment has been up for 5 hours and no one has called out the glaring and sexist assumption that the commenter makes in calling rape a relationship. Its a Pathological FAILURE TO RELATE TO and empathize with the feelings of another person.

but it's nice that you have tons of energy and enthusiasm to start leaping about. nice for you.

first, yes, the comment is clearly some level of deranged. hardly unique, especially in a world of easy toss-off comments.
second, rape is a lot of different things to different people, which is both helpful and confusing and mystifying as fuck. if i wanted to engage with some super enthusiastic person i might say that most relationships include moments (at least) of inability to relate to the other person's feelings. should the whole relationship be characterized by those moments? of course not (one hopes). should those moments be ignored? also of course not.


" of the links in the OP is not in the anarchist scene at all."

and reading either of them as they are don't really say much of anything, article one is a list of people of people who are now part of a facebook tribunal of sorts, article 2 is very unclear what dispute/grievance is being talking about. We have band names, names of guys presumably in the band, talks about sexual assault, teenage girls, accountability...i'm very confused...i think i'm gonna spend a little time today trying to figure it out.

Its sorta funny/weird hearing "anarchists" talking about presumed criminal acts and legislative-esque actions to "re-educate" the "offender". Sound familiar? Its not the first time an idea has been slowly inverted to become something opposite to what its original intention was. The irony is that prisons have the highest percentage of anarchistic leaning persons within their walls socializing and getting together doing their time and getting 3 decent meals a day, mattresses and health care, yet do-gooder sjw anarchists want to abolish prisons.
I predict that prisons will be the last refuges for anarchists and other rebels in 20 years.

“Prisons have the highest percentage of anarchistic leaning persons”

Lmao bruh. Have you ever known anyone who’s been to prison? Machismo, hierarchy, the rule of the strong, etc. This is the culture of prisoners almost if not everywhere.

an anarchist prisoner today.

i had dinner with a prison guard and their family: the predominant thing within walls of jails and prisons is a macho-code of "respect", woe to those who violate this code...according to this guy, DO NOT attack female prison guards. But of course, this is just my local area. I wonder what it's like to go to San Quentin as a "california pretty boy hipster"


Yeah, like I said before, this "anarchist code" amongst most prisoners looks down on authoritarian power dynamic and extends protection to the women guards. This may look like an assertive patriarchal ethic but is actually an example of the deep anarchist values concerning gender equality.
"California pretty boy hipsters" are also deeply respected, in fact venorated if they say they were involved in the filming of Hollywood prison escape movies like Con Air or Face Off.

and things i've heard, another consistent thread of prison culture is christianity. We could debate on how that's consistent with "anarchist prisons" but i'll save that one for some other troll...

to me, being a "real anarch" is about having a more absolute disregard for any type of hierarchy, prisons are basically a lasagna of hierarchy. One of the scariest things about this is at this point you are a "real outlaw" and the cops/gaurds absolutely do not care about a more thorough form of justice in this regard.

I think what you're trying to say is that "law" and "respect" are more anarchic when freer individuals take them into their own hands. And in this regard, yeah i agree: prison culture is often more anarchic than "society".

i think you missed a joke or two in there? i mean, it's anon, so who knows... but really?

lumpy, but i actually did have dinner with some prison guard who was de-facto sharing a camp site with me! Yes: "jailhouse justice" is a REAL thing! All the cool snarky old people are doing it!

"what do you think are the best/worst ways to a) gauge whether someone has done something that they deny doing, b) respond to said something, if it was in fact done?"

It takes a tremendous amount of work to actually figure out if someone:

-just doesn't remember the way something happened

-is lieing

-if everyone who was at the scene of the occurrence of "the bad thing" is mixing truths, half-truths, or lies. If you get a ton of information, you might be able to draw conclusions, but never assume that you are a representative of the good and true.

- self-denial is a thing, too. Even for people who recognize they did something wrong, they might just sweep it under the rug of their consciousness.

"tremendous amount of work" compared to what? building and maintaining networks makes it much easier.

I've found that really skilled liars and spinners of the truth are often pretty bad at maintaining their bullshit over time. might be able to bullshit everybody once or twice but shit tends to catch up with you eventually. of course, if there's no collective memory going on, everyone's flying blind

i've known a couple pathological liars, they generally have to skip down after a few months. Everyone lies, but if you are constantly lieing well then...probably good to think about the issues with lying.

I guess the question is how does one maintain and build a network?

serious question? by developing trust and functional relationships over time?

but as you point out, how can you know anything without asking questions about it or experiencing it yourself? Is asking a question a sign of stupidity, are there stupid questions?

was just checking if you wanted a real answer. unfortunately, there's no canned, prefab answer to a question like that imo.

i'm not so sure that unintentional self-parodies are the best way to examine this topic

i didn't say anything about what you're mad about. but "relevant"?! have you actually read those two shit essays?

of "the anarchist police" essay, but i'm not really sure that's irrelevant to this topic of the week...i mean, there's a lot of talk on here about delivering justice, analyzing the past, changing the perpetrators...etc. The funniest part about the picture above is the insistence on changing "the community" without "the perpetrator".

The concept of "preventative justice" has been made interesting to me through the discussion, but i'm pretty sure that doesn't make any sense: justice is a reference to a higher spook.

yet there are problems with just sitting around and hoping to change the past, to me "justice" normally does refer to the court system. There are other kinds of justice though...there's transformative justice, ironic justice, criminal justice, i don't know if there's the right one to talk about. I've worried a lot if i'm just going to be the same person when i'm old, but i guess there's suicide...i guess this is just more bullshit excuses and complaining, because yes i could kill myself.

Justice is not a spook if it is delivered by an individualist with a cast iron will to empathise!

Ends, and everyone can back to doing more "boring" stuff.

I'm sorry everyone, but we still haven't figured out what "it" is yet. But hey I got some ironic justice by "trying to troll the trolls", it's very short lived.

Justice derived from a cast-iron will wins over ironic justice dude!

Yes, its and excellent quote, I wonder if there are any t-shirts out there with this wonderful aphorism which should be carved on the entrance to every TAZ.

and what people were saying, i click on the links and it's pretty unclear what is exactly going on. There's sexual abuse and accountability, whatever that means. Quotes and teenage girls: what happened here? I've tried reading about the trial and contributors, this is just embarrassing: it's all hidden in vague language and lists of names.

Ugh, why did i even get involved??? Just spontaneous crap i guess...credentials and some long list. I really don't understand, i wish i just read everything before even talking.

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