"anarchists" fighting in ukraine

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anon (not verified)
"anarchists" fighting in ukraine

i heard a lot about the anarchists fighting in ukraine as soldiers but i don't understand the logic of it, how can you fight in a war where it's a governement against another governement and consider yourself an anarchist when you fight willingly as a soldier for one of those governement. please explain to me why should we support them, there are much better way to fight the russian governement without being involver like the russian anarchists destroying train tracks to stop the supply to the front.

(sorry if i do errors in my typing, i'm not at my best)

Wayne Price (not verified)
Why Anarchist Fight in Ukraine

The anarchists fighting in Ukraine do not see themselves as fighting "for one of those governments." They see themselves as fighting for their people, their class, and their country. What are they supposed to do when an imperialist state invades their country with the aim of destroying their national independence, their culture, their language? What do you suggest that they do when an enemy imperialist is bombing their villages, towns, and cities?

Your suggestion that they should follow the example of Russian anarchists who destroy Russian train tracks is not very useful--for Ukrainians! It would be best if they could create an anarchist militia or guerrilla army independent of the Ukrainian state, but they are too weak. So they do the best they can, even if it doesn't reach your level of foreign purity. They do not support the Ukrainian state and ultimately aim at its overthrow, but meanwhile they must resist the invasion if they are to get any respect from fellow Ukrainians.

anon (not verified)
Wayne is pretend posting as

Wayne is pretend posting as Pramen by the way. It is not Pramen posting but Wayne Price LARPing as he always does.

anon (not verified)
If only Wayne had been there

If only Wayne had been there to square off with the old dude who got beat up at the Medea Benjamin event, it would have been a fair(er) fight

Luke from DC (not verified)
Because one of those governments namely Putin

Is not only shitting all over the people living in his originally claimed territory (Russia) but is now trying to extend his rule to residents of other areas, at this point Ukraine. There is no threat that Zelinsky will conquer Russia and install a NATO-backed regime there, but there is (or WAS thanks to Ukraine's defenders!) a threat that Putin would conquer Ukraine and impose his rule there.

Russian anarchists fight against Putin, so do Ukrainian anarchists. That tells me a LOT.

anon (not verified)
Ukrainian anarchists also are

Ukrainian anarchists also are fight against Zelinsky and the oppressive Ukrainian state you bootlicking strugglismo liberal scum

Luke from DC (not verified)
They cannot fight ONLY Zelinsky's government

Or they just get Putin instead.

anon (not verified)
Who said "only", you NATO

Who said "only", you NATO bootlicking scum?

anon (not verified)
"There is no threat that

"There is no threat that Zelinsky will conquer Russia and install a NATO-backed regime there, but there is (or WAS thanks to Ukraine's defenders!) a threat that Putin would conquer Ukraine and impose his rule there."

Neither.

The real threat is an endless war, which could eventually turn nuclear.Nearly two years into this war and both sides are on a bloody stalemate. Ukraine makes occasional limited breakthroughs but Russia has held its ground pretty firmly, and actually has gained more territory than it had before the invasion.

The other part of that wrong assessment of yours, is that there are other, foreign, interests behind this war. Not just the US, but China. And it'd make a lot of sense that China is really behind the invasion, using Russia as its puppet army, regardless of all the losses it might suffer.

Luke from DC (not verified)
Plenty of folks licking Putin's boots here too

I wonder how much of the trash talk both me and Wayne get here comes from paid "influencers" and how much of that money comes from Moscow? It cannot be 100% and it cannot be zero either, where it is in between I do not know. I know for a fact that I don't get a dime from Zelinsky nor from NATO.

There is also a sizable disconnect between anarchists and other activists I see in real life vs what I see printed here: most folks I know side with Ukraine, while also condemning any conflation of Putin with Russia as a whole. A few folks are neutral on the war itself but since I don't hang with "tankies" I don't know ANYONE flatly taking Putin's side in this.

Personally, I think this war will stay stalemated (it's a trench war after all) until the Russian people cannot take Putin's press gangs anymore and forcibly remove him from power. He will share the fate of previous Czars who lost expensive wars. It is lalso likely that this will happen in Russia long before it could ever happen in Ukraine, given that the people of Russia have nothing to gain from this war and the people of Ukraine have everything to lose.

Conscription and the resistance it spawned played a major role in defeating the US in Vietnam even though North Vietnam also had it. When the war itself is widely opposed by the public, adding conscription to the mix tends to turbocharge resistance to it. When the Center for American Progress started promoting conscription during the US war in Iraq, I had to warn them that conscription for the Iraq War "would open a new insurgent front inside the United States." I never heard another word from them on the subject after that high-profile public meeting, attended by everything from students to a couple members of Congress to representatives of the military. Well, Putin's conscription has certainly open a major partisan front inside Russia!

If you ask my why I side with the people of Ukraine, the answer is simple: same reason I sided with the people of Iraq during Bush's war. Big empires picking on smaller populations need to have their heads handed to them. This isn't done with love and flowers-it's done with tough fighting usually from a position of severe disadvantage and having to take aid from whatever disagreeable sources choose to offer it.

As for China's regime, they need to stay OUT of this-and any overt/major intervention by China's government should be presumed to carry imperialist intentions towards Russia as well as towards Ukraine. During Vietnam, it was claimed (and even made it into a Tom Clancy novel) that Russia had to send all aid to North Vietnam by ship or air, as rail shipments of weapons through China were stolen by government officials there. China and Vietnam of course had fought for centuries during their past history, so that one has multiple motives.

anon (not verified)
Yeah Luke,

Yeah Luke,

Every anarchist that doesn't agree with yours and Wayne's pro-NATO (pro-USA), pro-Ukrainian state military, pro-nation-state-war position must be a "paid influencer from Moscow".

I thought you and Wayne always pretended to be against US imperialism. Don't you see that your position is in fact supporting US imperialism? Don't answer that, of course you do and we ALL see it.

You're both fucking jokes.
This is an anarchist website.
Fuck Ukraine.
Fuck Russia.
Fuck USA.
Fuck NATO.
Fuck you.
Eat shit.
Fuck off.

Wayne Price (not verified)
Whose Imperialism?

My only disagreement with Luke is that I see no reason to suspect that people who make nasty and infantile "comments" on my and his statements are "paid influencers" or take Moscow money. Because 1) people can be stupid, nasty, and infantile all on their own, 2) many anarchists are pretty ignorant about anarchist theory; 3) the nasty name-calling, devoid of political content, is due to our critics' inability to answer our arguments; and 4) would the Russians waste money on the Comments sections of anarchistnews? Hard to believe.

Anon asks, "Don't you see that your position is in fact supporting US imperialism?" Well, don't YOU see that your position is in fact supporting Russian imperialism? Or do you see this, but think that the only imperialism which matters is that of the U.S.?

In the Ukraine the *immediate* imperialism is that of Russia, which is immediately invading and occupying and destroying and massacring the people and the land. To defend themselves, the Ukrainians are taking arms and money from the U.S., but it is the Ukrainians who are being bombed and killed and who are fighting and dying--not the U.S. or other NATO nations. Of course the U.S. has its own imperial interests (although the right wing of the Republicans does not think these are worth the trouble). But these are not the most important issue.

When the South African Black people fought against the apartheid dictatorship, their movement got aid from the then-Soviet Union. This led conservatives to call the movement "Communist" and denounce it. Most anti-Stalinist activists, including anarchists, were not dissuaded from support of the South African people just because of this support by Russian imperialism. The cause was just and we did not believe it was a set-up by Russia. The same approach applies to Ukraine even if it gets aid from U.S. imperialism.

anon (not verified)
Hi Wayne, I had my comment in

Hi Wayne, I had my comment in support of yours and Luke's stance concerning this war deleted. As you know, and probably you also share the attirude regarding we individualist anarchs as being selfish and uncommitted anarchists, but I understand the nuanced circumstances that any Ukrainian anarchist must deal with, the destruction of their home, their relationships within their tenuous existence even before the war, and how they had to throw their energies in with their nationalist country-folk.
Just wanted to let you know you and Luke are not alone here on this site, you have dedicated individualists pulling for you. I salute you and all warriors!

anon (not verified)
Sounds exactly like something

Sounds exactly like something a paid NATO influencer might say...

Wayne (not verified)
Individualist Anarchists for Ukraine!

Thanks Anon # 13 for your friendly and supportive comment. Like Daniel Guerin, I am an anarchist-socialist, but also find value in some of individualist anarchism (see my essay on Stirner). In any case, I am delighted to find that someone agrees with me and Luke and also most Ukrainian anarchists on the topic of the war.

anon (not verified)
Well yeEes, but Only IF the

Well yeEes, but Only IF the anarchist dwelling is being threatened by an enemy force with inferior firepower will we attack them. Using common sense, we individualist anarchs will retreat if the enemy have superior firepower. This isn't about borders, it's about anarch homes being defended, mmmkay.

Le Reich (not verified)
Wayne, how goeth the quest

Wayne, how goeth the quest for orgasmic tranquility and the cessation of seething ressentiment and war?!

Luke from DC (not verified)
"every anarchist?"

Who said any paid trolls (whether paid by the FBI, by Putin, or by Elon Musk) were anarchists? Also, I am not saying ALL my attackers are paid trolls, whether I am saying that the depths of hate I get here and ONLY here over Ukraine raise the possiblity that some are, perhaps just one posting under multiple names?

MoscowInfluencer (not verified)
Is someone gonna explain to

Is someone gonna explain to Luke that "anon" is the default name and it could be many different people?

anon (not verified)
Luke, Oh Luke...

- Ukraine is entirely a national construct, and a very young one at that.

- It's been used as a front for Western (mostly US and UK) interests, including the military and agro industrial complex since 2014. When the war ends and if it is a Ukrainian victory, the country will be Marshall-planned like no other region ever was and Western billionaires (oligarchs) are going to blow up the trillion mark. While you and I are gonna have an even more miserable life due having picked Humanities instead of STEM at college, lol, or none at all. Coz we hate Math, I know... But don't think for a second that the hordes of sterile conformist TikTok drones are gonna listen to our calls for a mass popular revolution.

anon (not verified)
Are you stupid? Firstly, all

Are you stupid? Firstly, all nations are social constructs, as it is with ethnicity, race and gender, and despite this, they still exist in the same way that states “exist”. If states were non existent than anarchists wouldn’t even be an opposition force. You can’t oppose something that doesn’t exist after all. And while an independent state called Ukraine is new, people have spoken the Ukrainian language, eaten Ukrainian food and danced Ukrainian dances for hundreds of years. Ukraine is just as “real” as Finland or Vietnam. Secondly, Russia is, as it has been for centuries, a brutal empire that is built on genocide, no different than the history of Spain, Britain or the United States for that matter. ( Google the Circassian genocide, the conquest of Siberia, or the deportation of the Crimean Tatars.) No country becomes the largest in the world without a little colonialism.
And, perhaps I should put it this way. What if Hawaii somehow gained independence from the United States. Then, they attempt to associate themselves with China or Russia. The USA then accuses the native Hawaiians of perpetrating a genocide against the white settlers and use that as a pretext to invade.
Would you support the native Hawaiians defending their home of from their former ruler, or would you turn against them because they allied themselves with a state.
From the perspective of the invaded, there is no way they can even have a chance against the invader without outside help. And unfortunately in our world, heavy weaponry is the monopoly of states. Would you sacrifice practicality for your principles and doom yourself to failure, or align yourself with the lesser of two evils to ensure your success.
And third, when we talk about the lesser of two evils. States are bad, but fascist states are worse. Far right political parties is Ukraine hold basically no political power, especially compared to their neighbors such as Poland, Hungary, and even Russia. ( Russia’s ruling political party is described as nationalist and conservative with rhetoric that takes from the writings of Aleksandr Dugin ( A national Bolshevik and founder of the pan nationalist Eurasianism. )
And yes, the United States has done a lot of terrible stuff, manifest destiny and the genocide of the indigenous peoples of North America, engaging in chattel slavery of black Africans and then segregation, the annexation of Hawaii, internment camps for Japanese Americans, the Vietnam War, Operation Condor, The Iraq and Afghan wars along with other interventions in the Middle East and North Africa, institutional racism and so on. But, if you actually were able to experience empathy or have any knowledge of the the history of Russia that didn’t come from RT you would understand why Ukrainian anarchists are making the decisions that they are making.
People like you are the kind to claims that “things are complicated” despite the fact that your understanding of geopolitics is literally just “USA bad, so not USA good” Listen, all states are bad, but some states are worse than others. And people have the right to defend their homes, and sometimes you have to do things that go against your principles to do it. I fucking hate capitalism, I hate it with my entire soul, and I hate everything that seeks to control other people. People deserve to be free to be who and what they are. To choose how to live their lives how they want to, and to be able to associate with whoever we want. People deserve the right to live, and the right to thrive. I want those things for the world, but at the rate we’re going it doesn’t seem to be happening anytime soon.
For now, we have to deal with things as they come and keep moving towards our ultimate goal of liberation. And for the anarchist ps fighting in Ukraine, all they care about is protecting their home from the Russian invaders who loot, rape, and steal children from their families. So I will kindly ask tankies like you to fuck off!

Luke from DC (not verified)
"National Construct" by whom? Endorsed by whom?

However Ukraine came to be, if the people who live there do not want to be ruled by Putin, they have the same right to resist him that I have to resist DeathSantis here in FL. The people who live in any area can decide for themselves what to call themselves, and nobody else gets a vote: not you, not me, not anyone

anon (not verified)
""National Construct" by whom

""National Construct" by whom? Endorsed by whom?"

Look into what are the parties, factions and organizations pushing the Ukrainian nationalist narrative since WW1. They are totally DeathSantis types, or even worse, Luke.

anon (not verified)
Explain Wayne please!

Just after Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy delivered an address in the House of Commons on Friday, Canada's parliament gave 98-year-old Yaroslav Hunka a standing ovation when Speaker Anthony Rota drew attention to him.

Mr Rota introduced Mr Hunka as a war hero who fought for the First Ukrainian Division.

Observers pointed out that the First Ukrainian Division was also known as the Waffen-SS Galicia Division, or the SS 14th Waffen Division, a voluntary unit that was under the command of the Nazis.

SirEinzige
I'm just a hunk, a hunk of burning love

Just a hunk, a hunk of burning love
Just a hunk, a hunk of burning love
Just a hunk, a hunk of burning love
Just a hunk, a hunk of burning love
Just a hunk, a hunk of burning love
Just a hunk, a hunk of burning love

anon (not verified)
I'm just gonna say it. There

I'm just gonna say it. There's no way you're not a white.

SirEinzige
As Harvey Dent said in the Dark Knight on being dead

Half

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