Against Israeli and Palestinian Nationalism

From Barbaria

English translation by Malcontent Editions

The attack by Hamas on Israel on Saturday, October 7, has provoked an immediate military response from the Netanyahu government, which has declared a state of war and has begun the systematic bombardment of the Gaza Strip. Meanwhile, under the cheers of the regime of the Ayatollahs’, Hezbollah has taken advantage of the situation by launching missiles into Israel from the Lebanese border. The confrontation has already (October 9) caused more than a thousand deaths between the Israeli State and the Gaza Strip, in addition to thousands of wounded and kidnapped. The coming days and months will see the misery and suffering of the workers on both sides increase, aggravating the harsh general conditions of the majority of the population, both those of the Strip and the impoverished proletariat of Israel.

And in addition to the misery that the Palestinian proletarians have to endure both inside and outside the Strip, under the existing segregation regime in Israel, there is a more general process of pauperization of the proletariat in the region as a whole after the covid pandemic and the beginning of the war in Ukraine: a rise in the price of raw materials, of energy and of food which already keeps half of the Arab families in Israel, more than a fifth of the Jewish families and practically the entire population in Gaza that large refugee camp that maintains itself with the crumbs of the United Nationsunder the  threshold of poverty.

What has led Hamas to act now? Certainly not the defense of the interests of the proletariat in Gaza, who once again find themselves under Israeli bombardment. Its surprise attack, which has come to intensify an already long-standing conflict, cannot be understood as a response motivated by popular rage against the Israeli occupation. There is no «Palestinian people», nor an undifferentiated unit of aggrieved people who respond heroically to their old aggressors. The proletariat in Gaza which a just a few months ago was protesting against the Hamas regime, against power cuts, food shortages and the government’s fierce repression, does not share the same interests as the apparatus subordinate to the Ayatollahs’ regime, nor the «brave» militias that use the civilian population of both sides as human shields. The Israeli response to the attack may revive the nationalist closing of ranks on both sides of the conflict, but it cannot deny this fact.

Because it must be said clearly and distinctly: the forces at work on both the Palestinian and Israeli sides are profoundly reactionary. Since the very formation of the State of Israel in 1948, the region has not ceased to be one piece more on the chessboard of the global inter-imperialist struggle. Israel quickly positioned itself as a pawn in the service of U.S. interests. Since then, whether under Ben-Gurion’s Labor Party or under the various conservative governments, it has pursued a systematic segregation and repression of the Palestinians within and outside of its borders, as well as a militaristic and securitarian policy that has served up til now to divert attention from the profound social inequalities within the Jewish population. For their part, the various factions of Palestinian nationalism after the British Mandate emerged under the auspices of the pan-Islamism of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and later under the secular umbrella of Stalinism under Nasser, to pass on after the fall of the USSR to be under the orders of Iran as a regional power. In the form of political Islamism or Stalinism, the military apparatus of Palestinian nationalism has always been linked to the most reactionary manifestations of the 20th century. After all, it could not be otherwise:

As Rosa Luxemburg had already pointed out decades earlier in her debate with Lenin, any nationalist movement can only, outwardly, fall under the wing of one of the great powers in the imperialist struggle, and inwardly repress all class expression in order to fix internal cohesion against the national enemy.

For reaction feeds reaction, and both need each other. Whether Netanhayu had any knowledge or not of the Hamas attack, whether he ignored or underestimated its magnitude or directly decided to allow it to happen, in any case it has not failed to be very convenient for him to favor a closing of ranks in the midst of a political crisis of his government while he himself is threatened with a corruption trial.

For their part, Hamas and Hezbollah, like the Iranian regime itself, obtain as such a moment of respite from the growing social discontent in the three territories, which in Lebanon was expressed by the slogan of All of them means all of them that is, also Hezbollah during the 2019 protests and which in Iran has been propelling strikes and mobilizations since 2018, exploding last year in the protests against the hijab mandate following the assassination of Mahsa Amini.

In its terminal crisis, capitalism not only drives social misery and the devastation of the planet to ever greater levels, thus motivating processes of social polarization, but also accentuates the confrontation between the different powers for the domination of a world market with ever greater dysfunctionalities. At the same time that capitalism expels labor and makes the material reproduction of our lives more and more difficult, it turns us into cannon fodder at the service of the interests of one fraction of the bourgeoisie against another. In this logic of inter-imperialist struggle, Hamas has acted with the aim of torpedoing the rapprochement between Israel and Saudi Arabia, hindering a new regional configuration in accordance with the tensions between the imperialist blocs. Under the banner of the «Palestinian resistance», it simply obeys the necessities of a part of the regional bourgeoisie. The blood that is is spilled however, will continue to be that of the Palestinian and Israeli proletariat. Any concession to nationalism, any deference to one nation over another in this process, implies placing oneself on the other side of the barricade against our class, which has no homeland and whose only real possibility of improving its living conditions is to put an end to the very system that threatens it, in an increasingly flagrant manner. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict will not find its solution in the creation of a single bi-national state, nor in the constitution of an independent Palestinian state. It can only find its solution in a revolutionary process that breaks with every nation and every border.

When at night the anti-aircraft sirens sound, and the Israeli and Palestinian military apparatuses hold their population hostage under bombs, we revolutionaries oppose this barbarism with all our strength. To the flags of nationalism, no matter the color of each one, we counterpose the joint struggle of the Palestinian and Israeli workers. For the Israelis, their bitterest enemy is the apparatus of the Jewish state, just as the PNA and Hamas are implacable enemies of the Palestinians. Only by confronting them directly will they be able to get out of the hellish labyrinth in which they find themselves. In short, against imperialist war -and this is one- there is only room for its transformation into a class war.

There are 165 Comments

Anarchists are now the 'all lives matter' crowd of internationalism. The shame doesn't end...

Is this supposed to imply BLM advocated the murder and torture of people related to police, guests at their homes? Must have missed that one.

Seems like you probably miss a lot of things often. ; )

Your said the "all lives matter of internationalism" and the problem with the "all lives matter" slogan was that at the very least, it equated white people killed by cops with black people killed by cops. Worse takes were that it meant cops lives also mattered. If you wanted to use that as an analogy for Israel-Palestine, it would work if Hamas and Islamic Jihad were just killing IDF soldiers or members of the Israel state. It falls apart as an analogy once you realize that anarchists haven't been complaining about the lost lives of IDF soldiers or other state forces. The complaint is about children and other non-combatants, like civilians and tourists. When did any BLM activists target the family of cops or their kids? The other main complaint from anarchists is that Hamas and Islamic Jihad don't represent all Palestinians and they definitely don't have any affinity with anarchists. If you wanted to use BLM as an analogy, the analogy would be if BLM supported Christian Nationalists as an expression of black insurrection against the police state. Another failure for the analogy.

thank you for saying this. I'm so sick of seeing supposed anarchists make excuses for isis-style terrorism. it's fucking pathetic and shows that much of anarchism is just based on ressentiment and violent revenge fantasies, not on actual revolutionary politics

Sort of like how people are sick of anarchists either remaining neutral or siding with western imperialism when it matters. Taking a neutral stance in a colonial war is taking a side liberals.

more strawman bullshit from airheads

Where are anarchists taking a "neutral stance" or siding with "western imperialism"? Are you talking about the Ukraine-Russia conflict?

If you think Israel-Palestine is just two sides then that itself is a problem. I would guess you aren't even an anarchist if you think in terms of two sides. That automatically prevents thinking about your own side, the anarchist side.

Do anarchists always need to bow down to "the enemy of my enemy" lie that every anarchist knows has only ever been a disaster for anarchists?

Anarchists theoretically, or the ones who aren't wedded to Western hegemony, are supposed to be fighting to destroy system of oppression. There is no more naked of a form of oppression than colonialism. The idea that you and your counter revolutionary ilk can consistently go through all these hoops to remain neutral, inactive and crackerishly critical is exactly why the 'movement' is in the shape it's in. If you guys were around during the genocide of the indigenous in the US or the nat turner rebellion it'd be gold hearing y'all talking about how people have to make sure they critique both sides and don't have solidarity with the enslaved and victims of genocide. Really coherent politics here!

If people create things imaginary demons in their head it usually signifies some sort of mental pathology or hangup. Why else would you believe there's a ton of anarchists out there defending Hamas?

So, what is going on. Are you Jewish and partial to Zionism? Are you afraid of violence generally? Does this issue in some way threaten your comfort?

I'm listening. We are all here to understand.

- DR Frasier Crane

cia?

I have never heard of anarchist being against the Jamestown massacre so it's definitely all lives matter. Bc anarchist support killing settlers kids on turtle island in the past but don't support it now.

It's all smoke and mirrors, Lettuce, 'til you address your own support of mass killing of "settlers", because they are "settlers". Or your position on the Holocaust, perhaps. As to all xenophobes and antisemites, Jews are settlers *everywhere*.

The Jamestown plantation was an early capitalist venture of the British Crown, exploited and run by Rolfe... not just a bunch of people who decided to start a new life there.

I'm extremely curious what my horrible position on the Holocaust is. I genuinely have no idea what it would be.

So it's pretty easy! To find out you just have to look at yourself in the mirror and tell us what you're seeing.

As you are the one talking part -as judge- in the genocide olympics, where the Jews don't have a podium for some *mysterious* reason.

"genuinely"... mildly funny.

Yeah sure, but the kids who got killed at Jamestown didn't have any choice. Hence why I made the comparison rather than random massacres fo solely settler adults.

Hey brah, anarchs should form a New-Crusade migration to Jerusalem to free it from religious fanaticism and wrathful spooks and bring joy and happiness to the holier-than-thou multitudes, just saying!

All these condemnations are reactionary and without substance. It is easy to talk about how both sides are bad (as if both sides are the same). It is much harder to seek to understand how we got to this point in the first place.

No fucking kidding chuckle-fuck, but anarchists aren't avoiding the understanding part. This is the standard anarchist position when nationalists are fighting each other. It's even the standard anarchist position when non-profits pretend to represent a movement. They don't need us, we sure as fuck don't need them. And who is this "we" that got to what "point" anyway?

Been going back through zine archives for good analysis on the occupation of Palestine and found a really good zine hosted on Fugitive Distro's site that was published by Zabalaza Books. It's called Anarchism and the National Liberation Struggle and it provides a much more satisfactory response and analysis to global national liberation struggles than the one posted above. Included in it is some discussion on the Palestinian national liberation struggle and comparing it to the South African liberation struggle which was particularily illuminating. Heres the direct link to it

oh great, the ZACF gang before Schmidt was outed as a Boer nationalist/white supremacist? yeah, that's bound to be an awesome text.

I haven't heard of this. Could you elaborate?

It did the Anews frontpage for quite a long time, a few years back Michael Schmidt was outed from this group for being a closet White supremacist, with an extensive presence on Stormfront, among other niceties. He would have operated under the guise of being a kind of antifa infiltrator among the Far Right milieu. But my better guess is that he was an intel agent, given his past history with the SA military. Black ops are secret ops or else they wouldn't be black ops...

It's also important to point out that our old pal Wayne Price defended the book Schmidt co-authored while at the same time being active on Stormfront (Black Flame), because the book did so much to promote his particular retrograde understanding of anarchism. Price discounted and/or dismissed Schmidt's clear right-wing positions because he obviously doesn't believe that such an awesome [sic!] book could've been co-written by a Boer nationalist...

Thanks to everyone who provided an explanation. I went back through that zine and found some dog whistles that I missed in my original read through it. I'm a little amazed that distro is hosting that zine at all.

Still don't give af about Israel/Palestine and you can't make me.

To Anon (Still don't...): If you totally don't care about the suffering of ordinary people on both sides, and don't care about the Israeli oppression of Palestinians, then we revolutionary anarchists don't want you,

What exactly makes you "revolutionary", Wayne?

Mostly your mom

"Mostly your Mom," is not by me. Not nearly witty enough.

Correction: "Not nearly *Trotsky enough."

-The real Wayne
He who slanders the victim aids the executioner.

"Correction: Not Nearly..." is also not by me. Nor particularly "Trotskyist," whatever that means to you.

"Another lie..." was not by me. "Correction: Not Nearly..." was, in fact, by me. I see "anarchists" are having a hard time with the truth which may be why there are so many impersonators defiling the benefits of Trotsky and the self determination of the Ukrainian working people and the Palestinian people that would work if they were not under bombardment by our NATO friends.

"Another Lie" was not by me"...and "Correction Not Nearly" were both not by me.

As it happens, I am not a Trotskyist. Although, again, I doubt that these schmucks have the least idea what a Trotskyist is, and why I have chosen anarchism over Trotskyism.

The proletariat in Gaza which a just a few months ago was protesting against the Hamas regime, against power cuts, food shortages and the government’s fierce repression, does not share the same interests as the apparatus subordinate to the Ayatollahs’ regime, nor the «brave» militias that use the civilian population of both sides as human shields.

Dear author, I'd appreciate it if you shared your sources on these protests against Hamas within Gaza.

Thanks! This is the same article I was able to find. I wish there was more info about this event other than it happened. It's not particularly useful in isolation.

There has been polling on support from Hamas and some of it has factored in regional data, but it is hard to make much of it.

This one shows growing support in 2021: https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad8...

This one talks about a later poll from the Washington Institute for Near East Policy (an Israel think tank...): https://www.politico.eu/article/were-at-war-tensions-crackle-in-east-jer...

One of the things about Hamas that gets them a lot of support (compared with Fatah) is that their social services are supposedly much better. That said, they supposedly also impose a lot of censorship on Gaza.

Hamas has been around since 1987. It isn't a new organization by any means. It isn't at all the most militant or extreme, which is how Palestinian Islamic Jihad makes itself stand out.

Yes, Hamas observe the Geneva Convention 'cos they're civilized and believe in the same god as Muhrica and Israel.

Not much, but a little more context... Some articles about discontent, demonstrations, and strikes in Gaza against the Hamas government over the years...

2021:
Hamas forcibly expels residents from their homes in Rafah
https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2021/01/gaza-hamas-rafah-expropriat...

2017:
Chaos, clashes in Gaza, as residents protest power cuts
https://www.timesofisrael.com/chaos-clashes-in-gaza-as-residents-protest...
Energy crisis leaves Gaza with barely four hours of power a day
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinians-gaza-energy-idUSKBN14W1YG
Electricity protests in Gaza: Hamas suppresses the working class
https://libcom.org/article/electricity-protests-gaza-hamas-suppresses-wo...

2006:
Palestine strike may spread to fuel workers
https://libcom.org/article/palestine-strike-may-spread-fuel-workers
Class war in Palestine
https://libcom.org/article/class-war-palestine
Strikes in Palestine: latest news
https://libcom.org/article/strikes-palestine-latest-news

thank god for this, it's been disgusting to watch idiots like haterscafe make excuses for Hamas on twitter. literal right-wing shit celebrating murder as *meh * decolonializationalism

i do think the decolonial "anarchists" are cringe idealists, but you are also kind of just carrying water for the cia

waiting patiently for Wayne Price to get here and restore order.

my ears are burning!

but i don't presume to weigh in on this stuff that much, i just know it's very weird to equivocate things that aren't the same.

killing noncombatants versus enemy fighters, super different!

the IDF and the iron dome? yeah, that's a genocidal, apartheid military state, which is pretty different than living in gaza

Wayne is furiously doing complicated math equations to decide which side to support

Wayne finally took our advice and went to volunteer in Ukraine. He was operating as embedded press with the 1488th Motorized Pensioner Conscript Battalion when he was unceremoniously denazificated by an off-brand Polish air defense system called the Iron Pierogi. RIP a Trotskyite legend. In his honor please post your worst Israel/Palestine take below:

This is bullshit though, most maybe all of the Palestinian orgs other than Hamas have lined up behind the rebellion whether they agree with the initial attack or not. Palestine is now working consistently to trigger uprisings there etc. All ya gotta do is get your head out of whatever workerist shit ur reading and look online.

Which brings me to my next point, why is this workerist, platform style nonsense being commented positively on anews? We all tired or something?

Also, what kind of "anarchist" text leaves open even the possibility that Palestinians have to stay in their open air cages till *glorious workers revolution*

Who said anything about "the rebellion"? Not to mention, a lot of orgs now don't think it is possible that Hamas killed civilians or children. Their take has been "oh, that wasn't Hamas, Hamas follows the Quran and wouldn't do that. That was others who came through the gate after!" It helps that Hamas leadership made that a line for them: https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/what-was-hamas-thinking

"Open air cages" ...like most cages?

Yeah nah. You're either a grade A idiot or just a non anarchist troll here stirring up trouble. Nobody downplays cages as "all the same."

Hope none of you all reading are falling for this cause it's probably just designed to sow division. The type of person above remains faceless, always.

One more thing, this is the same person on all the threads cause they keep providing links. Don't fall for whatever this is.

Hi guy. Cages usually are open air. You are mixing up your buzzwords. It's "open air prison" not "open air cage". Congrats on messing that up and also congrats on acting like people you don't agree with are COINTELPRO or something.

People who downplay living in a place like Gaza anonymously and act like it's an anarchist position might as well be cops. You are literally doing their work for them. But no, if anyone here is actually doing state shit they would be getting paid by Israel.

Also, if you don't think that is happening you are in some weird as bubble.

any more strawman arguments for the comment section today? You are on a roll. What else do you got? How far can you reach beyond the words of a comment to find an accusation that might land? Really? Pointing out that Hamas leadership denied targeting civilians was part of an operation they were not made aware of until it happened is somehow downplaying anything happening in Gaza? Or are you just mad that you messed up a buzzword?

Google "open air cage" and see what comes up. It isn't anything about Gaza. You used the wrong term and it was the only thing you had so now you are trying to save face by distracting even more from the fact that you have no real response to the comment.

Hi brah, the whole world is an open air concentration camp, so congrats on your gravitational servitude brah.

If the above person doesn't see the difference between any prison I'd love for them to come over. I have an infinite amount of yardwork. Can provide a shack and gruel. Maybe even a hose bath every week.

Too late!
We’ve already gone
full Palestinian nationalist

Now here's the lifeboat back to Stateland out of the Anarchyboat... no I mean the plank walk! Down you gooooo. Har har.

Barbaria are a Spanish variant of ultra-left communism who have also gone to great lengths to rail against "identity politics." It's just more European reactionary shit under the guise of anti-state communism. Somehow race holds no sway in this conflict for Barbaria: it's all class. More of the Euro ultra-left that is worthy of being further pushed down into the dustbin of history (where it already is).

no barbaria are connected to bash back and hence they're corresctly classified as enemy nihilists

More accurately they could be described as binary nihilists.

This is obviously written by Ulta left workerists, how anyone missed that if they actually read it is bizarre.

Anyhow chalk this one up as another non anarchist text people associated with us.

"ultra left workerist" is sometimes a type of anarchist, oh dear gatekeeper ;)

I don't disagree. I'm just saying the article pretty clearly comes from a specific line of thinking.

YoU would say that wouldn't you, 'cos like, crypto-Marxist anarchists lack a critical analysis of ontologically derived self-awareness and autonomy.

Proletariat reflects some rather misplaced and stupid analysis, the matter currently is about belligerents and non-belligerents (or "civilians"), or between those not willing to put their lives on the line for a political dead end, and those insane/brainwashed/self-interested enough to commit atrocities and other acts of war for interests greater than theirs.

Funny how, like apparently no one else here noticed or cares about, the Hamas onslaught came as a 50th year anniversary of the Yom Kippur... the last time when the conflict brought the world close to a nuclear war between the two superpower blocs. Scary in symbolism, for a current geopolitcal context that is quite worrying.

Free Palestine

Free Willy. Free Pizza and Beer. Free Fall. Buy Two, Get One Free. Fuck Misrael, Fuck Paleswine. Fuck Hamas, Fuck the IDF. Fuck nationalists pretending to be anarchists.

Greaterest comment since the invention of dumpster poutine.

To paraphrase the great anarchist luminary Jeff foxworthy, if you can’t tell the difference between a militaristic government committing genocide on the USA’s dime, and the people fighting back against it… you might be a liberal

I am anti-Zionist at the end of the day. That does not mean one should engage in uncritical underdogism. Part of the reason for the continuing tragedy we see is due to how Arab and Jewish forces gamed ally and axis forces before and during WW2. The Palestinians were the big losers but it would have been the Jews if you know who had one. There is tragic amount of political karma that results from these things.

There is a clear asymmetry of domination which should entail that @s be more on the side of the Palestinians, however I think you can do this and also deface these geopolitical born and bred statist identities. What I do know is that any discourse that has its roots in the new left will not be able to take down Israel. Israel is not South Africa or the USA. What you have are competing ancestral power structures for a valued piece of land and any analysis of this should be much more nuanced than what you get from idiots like Hasan Piker and other propal leftists.

You will have to take on things like structural antisemitism in the Arab world that predates Israel and you will have to do so while also being anti-Zionist. Most leftists fail at this.

Such a fool might or might not be a liberal, but they are certainly an Anti-Imperialist (see also every Wayne Price comment about anarchists supporting the Ukrainian military). Anti-Imperialists unselfconsciously take sides in conflicts between stronger and weaker states, which since 1956 has meant being anti-Israel (regardless of which imperial power was funding it; in 56 it was France and the UK, since 67 it's been the USA). Regardless of the reactionary (anti-leftist) characteristics and policies of its neighboring Arab states.
Leaving aside the idiocies of Anti-Imperialism, on its own terms Israel is a despicable ethnosupremacist state. And the Hamas-run Gaza Strip is another reactionary (anti-leftist, homophobic, misogynist) ethnosupremacist state. For principled anarchists, the side to take is that of non-combatants, the people on every side of the conflict who get caught in the crossfire of theocratic fanatics.
The IDF has engaged in disproportionate hideous actions that are correctly classified as war crimes and crimes against humanity. Palestinian nationalist freedom fighters have as well, and Hamas deliberately targeting non-combatants for murder and hostage-taking also qualify.
All those cretins excusing Hamas war crimes by saying "well, decolonization isn't always nice" can fuck off too. Indiscriminate massacres of non-combatants, whether perpetrated by the IDF or Hamas or Islamic Jihad, are war crimes. They are inexcusable in any and every context.

So beyond all this bla bla about principled stances, what does it come down to? Will you join the protests calling for a ceasefire or not? Do you even care what is happening, or only about crafting your own precious little take that excuses you to “not take a side” while the bombs and gas rain down with western sponsorship?

Liberals (including anarcho-liberals) love to talk about the “anti-imperialism of fools” lately, but don’t say what kind of anti-imperialism they would support; to them ALL anti-imperialism is for fools. To me, it’s beyond foolish to think that we can achieve the radical changes we want while ignoring the imperial reality.

fair point! although mass liberal protests about a ceasefire won't accomplish much either, not unless folks really lean in and rupture the virtue performance of it all

I've found myself warming up recently to SOME of your analysis Lumpy, but I feel strange about this recent post which only highlights your aloofness, your insensitivity, your self-centeredness and your tendency to brood. Maybe your changing, but right now you seem to be striking a pillow of good intentions and forgetting that this is primarilly a question of exigency.

..ok? who tf are you? why should i care? certainly not seeking your approval, k? keep that in mind

A core sadness seems to be keeping you in a state of inaction. Strangely, you have no fear of international consequences. This is likely because you're moving so fast that the rest of us seem like fixed statues. You're tainted and so is your space. Ablution is required. Back into circulation you go...

I mean a bunch of rabbis and leftist Jews partly occupied the capitol today?? There have been massive protests in around the world, many have been conflictual. It’s a start. I protested the Iraq war 20 years ago not because I thought we would realistically stop it. I mean I hoped but I just had to try. What anarchist can’t understand that? We must try and try. We must not look away from the wounds of the world.

I think if you want to show people that anarchists are above caring about ongoing genocide and a world in peril, you are just giving them reasons to ignore anarchists going forward.

yeah, the iraq war is exactly my point. the jury isn't still out on performative symbolic protest..

i'm not "above caring" either, you pompous dickheads. i'm talking about how we choose to spend our energy and not being delusional about it. go have your group therapy session, i ain't stopping you but i might tell you to get off your own dick about it.

A lot of tactics have been used in the past against the war machine, which is above all the thing to be ruptured. A lot of Israel’s weapons are made in the west. I think the powers that be have already been shocked at the outpouring of support and solidarity for Palestine which has continued to grow.

I keep wondering what we’ve learned since George W’s boots on the ground, big ugly expensive American imperial fascism was replaced with drone strikes and proxy wars. Obama even sort of ran as antiwar. Ukraine was the sign, now liberals and conservatives are standing shoulder to shoulder saying no ceasefire no humanitarian aid no limits or conditions on support to Israel…this whole change place with little or no opposition. But this may change now.

This is extremely bad, another thing I’m sort of troubled people don’t all seem to be grappling with. This isn’t just another “media cycle” about something or other. This is really really really really bad. I want you all to think about this very seriously. The entire Middle East is trembling with grief and anger right now and no one can say what will happen next.

I'm definitely standing with all those calling for an immediate cease fire and exchange of prisoners. It's pointless -- but firmly keeping with the logic of Anti-Imperialism-- to point fingers at one side or the other and say "well, they started it." The Israelis, as the better armed and wielders of disproportionate power in the region, need to be the first to abide by a ceasefire. And in order to show good faith, Hamas needs to release the hostages, preferably in agreement with Israel releasing Palestinian prisoners. Without both things, the circle of blood feud and vendetta will continue unabated.

Not the other commenter, but protests calling for a ceasefire are a great idea, even tho not the most practical one. I reserve the right to vandalize any Palestinian flag too, as these are really just throwing oil in the fire. Black flags and maybe white flags only.

Bro if you try to deface a Palestinian flag at a demo you will get rinsed and deserve it.

A few posts have asked for my thoughts (if only to denounce them). I think there is a difference between Why a war is initiated and How a war is waged. (1) As to Why, I am on the side of the Palestinian people against their Israeli oppressor. All those who equate the Palestinian Arabs with the Israeli Jews are living in a dream world. One is a heavily-armed colonial power and a junior partner of U.S. imperialism. The other is a stateless people whose land and freedom have been stolen by a colonial settler state. Even now the settlers on the West Bank are killing Palestinians and driving them from their lands. That the Palestinians' leaderships are awful (Hamas, Hezbollah, the Palestinian Authority/PLO/Fatah, etc.) does not change the fact that Israel dominates and oppresses them. As a general statement, the Palestinians are right to resist and fight against the Zionist state.

(2) As to How the war is waged, I think we should condemn the cruel methods of Hamas. Granted that wars are always bloody and painful, and granted that every settler (even children) are living on land stolen from Palestinians, nevertheless some methods of war are simply atrocities and war crimes. Those who are uncritical of Hamas' massacre of unarmed nonresistant civilians, or who even cheer it on, have a different conception of liberation and socialism than we do.

(1) is mostly good but (2) is you doing what you accuse everyone else of doing with Ukraine: recognizing a right to resist in theory, but saying “no not like that” in practice. If you recognize the extreme asymmetry of the situation but only support Palestinian resistance when it takes a form that you approve of, you could be waiting a very long time without supporting them. Meanwhile, as in Ukraine (tho I guess you don’t care here, if you don’t there) you are a westerner and your government is actively supporting one side. You might also consider the occasionally extreme violence by rebellious slaves/prisoners and indigenous resistance across US history. Who does it help to denounce that?

To Anon ((1) is Mostly Good...): Unlike most of the anarchists on this list, you do not equate the oppressed nation and the oppressor state or denounce both "sides" when they are in violent conflict. We are in agreement so far.

I mostly agree, also, that we should not be judging the oppressed's method of struggle. For example, I suspect that the Palestinians might do better with Gandhian nonviolent mass strategies, as a few Palestinians have raised. But I do not denounce their choice of armed warfare. That is their choice. Yet I draw the line at atrocities and war crimes, even by those whose "side" I support. (It should also go without saying that anarchists do give political support to Hamas or any nationalist leadership, which does not change our support to the Palestinian people in any war--Point #2.) This is a matter of what we mean by anarchism, socialism, and liberation.

I wrote: "should also go without saying that anarchists do give political support to Hamas or any nationalist leadership, which does not change our support to the Palestinian people in any war"

I should have written "anarchists do NOT give political support to Hamas...."

Sorry.

What I really meant to say was that Hamas will gain my political support when they become fully employed workers that support the self-determination of the Palestinian people and the black people and women.

Solidarity!

One more correction: "the *working black people and *working women."

I did not write either of the last two posts "submitted by Wayne Price."

The aim is to paint me as a crude "workerist," who only supports movements which are immediately reducible to working class struggles.
There are such folk, among anarchists as well as Marxists. But anyone who has just read my articles and comments on anarchistnews knows of my support for national self-determination of oppressed peoples. (This has been justification for supporting the Ukrainian people.) I do, however, regard the class struggle as one of the central forces (potentially) of revolutionary struggle.

anyone who has just read my articles and comments on anarchistnews knows of my support for national self-determination of oppressed peoples.

Every nationalist-anarchist knows this.

And if you think about it.... who among you is not, or has not been, oppressed? The fascist Zionists were at one time the most oppressed peoples in history and now they are the oppressor. Jeffrey Dahmer was an oppressed youth and he became an oppressor. It's a good thing Wayne is there to support them his his flavour of anarchism. It must be difficult knowing when to turn on an off support based on such an easily flippable attribute (oppressed to oppressor). Whiplash comes to mind.

you take and consolidate power over an entire population, like Hamas, PLO, the "Palestinian Authority" have done, and become the oppressor in enforcing authoritarian violence upon non-combatant people, regardless if they are Israelis or Palestinian Arabs.

Oppression is the character and tension of a dynamic; it is relational. Leftists tend to view it as a static political identity; so like... you are Palestinian, therefore you are the "oppressed", but if you are Israeli you are the "oppressor". See where that leads... to bloodsheds as anyone carrying this ghostly "oppressor" identity lose their value as living beings since they are deemed as guilty *by default*.

Same is being applied to "cishet" males and sometimes White people in general, through fanatical ID politicians like those we find on social media and elsewhere.

No one is *by default* an oppressor because of who/what they are. It's what they *do*, how they engage with others within oppressive power dynamics.

So just a bunch of chill Jewish people really just minding their own business in a Kibbutz is not being "oppressors", not at least by default. As Jews have a right to live there and negating this right with the use of violence means nothing but a pogrom. But being guards at the fences, border cops, prison guards, on the other hand, is evidently being the oppressors.

You write, "So just a bunch of chill Jewish people really just minding their own business in a Kibbutz is not being "oppressors"....Jews have a right to live there...."

Jews (or anyone else) do not have a "right" to live on land stolen from Palestinians through war and legal chicanery. Just living on someone else's land is theft and oppression. Nor do they just mind their own business. They support a Jewish-supremacist state which denies Palestinians equal rights and freedoms, inside and outside the formal limits of the state.

Without supporting Hamas' atrocities, or Hamas' reactionary politics, the Zionist settlers must be seen as oppressors.

As an American, then, Wayne you similarly have no right to live on land stolen from the indigenous peoples of this continent, since it was stolen through war and legal chicanery. In fact, Wayne, I challenge you to find at least three examples of nation states that have not come into existence without war/military conquest and/or legal chicanery. The case of Palestine is notable because it happened so recently. At the same time that Pakistan was carved out of India. And just a few decades before the attempted carving out/liberation of Biafra, the struggles that created Bangladesh, and how many other countries that fought border wars and skirmishes in various decolonizing conflicts? What about the way South Sudan was carved out of Sudan? Or Eritrea from Ethiopia? Did you notice any wars there? Singling out one nation state for special opprobrium because it fits in better with the manichean idiocies of Anti-Imperialism might help you sleep better at night, but for those anarchists who retain a principled anti-state position, it's absurd.

And your implicit declaration that all Jewish citizens of Israel support territorial maximalism -- and therefore deserve to be murdered -- is the kind of collective guilt-mongering that the pogromists of Hamas used to justify their massacre of non-combatants -- the same as the settler pogromists portray all Palestinians as terrorists. The same as the US government used to exterminate indigenous people here. Nits breed lice, innit.

To Anon (As an American then....): Yes, all nations have been formed out of oppression and robbery, not least the U.S., which stole the Natives' land, brought in African slaves, and seized half of Mexico. I don't see how this justifies Israel today. (And I fully support the struggles of Indigenous "Americans" to restitution, expanded rights, national sovereignty, and so on. )

You denounce my "implicit declaration that all Jewish citizens of Israel support territorial maximalism -- and therefore deserve to be murdered..." Actually I said that all Jewish Israelis are living on land stolen from Palestinians and accept this. And virtually all Jewish Israelis support the Israeli state, the result of the Zionist project which makes them the dominant caste. So even the liberal, "peace"- advocating, pro-"democratic," Jews of Israel are supporting the oppression of Palestinian Arabs.

This means that their state must be overthrown and their kibbutzim may be attacked, but does not justify atrocities and war crimes. For example, kibbutzim and towns may be occupied but people who do not resist must not be massacred, let alone children and old people. To repeat, there is a difference between Why a war is undertaken and How it is waged.

"And virtually all Jewish Israelis support the Israeli state,"

There goes Wayne Price again with his mind-reading powers of what "All", "Most", "Nearly All" people in [insert place where Wayne Price doesn't live] think.

You're a disgusting fucker, Wayne Price. You know nothing of the struggles you have so many opinions on. Leave your fucking house once and a while.

This means that their state must be overthrown and their kibbutzim may be attacked, but does not justify atrocities and war crimes. For example, kibbutzim and towns may be occupied but people who do not resist must not be massacred, let alone children and old people. To repeat, there is a difference between Why a war is undertaken and How it is waged. --Wayne Price

You live in a fantasy world where you grant permission to an oppressed group to wage war and attack their oppressors but throw out restrictions like 'but no war crimes' and 'no old people'.

You care a fucking authoritarian and a literal pile of human shit. Why you call yourself an anarchist is anybody's guess.

To Anon (This Means....): Yes, I am against the killing of children and babies, even by oppressed people fighting for freedom. I even dare to disagree with Hamas' reactionary theocratic politics! Clearly this makes me "a fucking authoritarian and a literal pile of human shit." You, I suppose are ok with deliberately murdering babies and small children, as well as unarmed and nonresistant civilians. This makes you a fine, upstanding, "anarchist" (or maybe a Stalinist).

youre both using the word literally wrong

Wayne literally calls for war, supports nation states, but literally wants fighters to follow the laws of war as to not commit literal "war crimes". Literal brain worms, brahs.

Look, if it's being a bootlicker to want militaries and militants to follow the rules of warfare and the international laws via the Geneva Convention then I suppose I am a bootlicker. War is good as long as you're doing it by the book.

Since time immemorial, the hominid species has engaged itself in social venting and war, a natural tendency evolved towards making the herding and over crowding of their societies more bearable. This natural culling dynamic is inbuilt into all mammalian herd species and when food runs out the survival instinct kicks in and an hysterical impulse to totally destroy all others with surplus food takes over the behavior of the herd. All we can do is stand back and let the frenzy run its course.

*inmemorial

Rest in Peace

^^This is not the real David Anarchborough^; NO! Immemorial, since forever, and will continued to live on in the brutal hominid species!
The modern study of neuropsychology may offer a solution to this unusual and vicious trait!

The hominid species continues to engage itself in social venting and mimicry (a form a flattery to some), a tendency brought about from generations of seething ressentiment that even this observer has not escaped. This peacocking serves as a compensation during doldrums between a heated plate of processed nourishment and long stretches of gaming, or "raiding" in the parlance of the seether until stimulants wear off and the body shuts down from lack of sleep until the next day, ad infinitum.

In recent months, hominids (Homo Extra) have also been spotted abducting baby capitalists and tearing open corporatist CEOs to feast on their livers. And off the coast of Spain and Portugal, a small population of hominids has begun ramming and sinking oil tankers.
All of these incidents show just how clever these apex predators are.
"These are animals with an incredibly complex and highly evolved brain," a hominid researcher at the University of Washington and the nonprofit Wild Hominid, told Live Science. "They've got parts of their brain that are associated with memory and emotion that are significantly more developed than even in the ubermansch brain."
But the scale and novelty of recent attacks have raised a question: Are hominids getting smarter? And if so, what's driving this shift?
They've got parts of their brain that are associated with memory and emotion that are significantly more developed than even in the academic hominids brain.
It's not likely that hominids' brains are changing on an anatomical level, said Bakunin, an anarchist ecologist who studies hominids at the University of British Columbia. "Behavioral change can influence anatomical change in an animal or a population" — but only over thousands of years of revolution, he told Live Science.

War is good as long as you're doing it by the book.

- UkWayne Price, 2023

Ya keep sinking deeper, Wayne... leave the statist boat before you can't swim back to the surface!

I did not write the post "Look, If It's Being A...." No doubt meant as a joke but this sort of thing prevents serious discussion.

The previous poster wrote that I called for wars, which is not true. I do support oppressed classes and people when they are in wars against their oppressors.

They wrote that I supported "nation states." Not true. I support oppressed peoples (nations) including those without states (such as Palestine or Tibet). If the people chose to fight using (or calling for) a state, that is their choice, which I do not agree with but I support their right to their choice.

I don't care about "international law via the Geneva Convention." I do care that babies, children, and unarmed civilians not be killed as part of the struggle, whether in Palestine/Israel or Northern Ireland (during the Troubles). If you don't, then I wonder what is wrong with you, you anarchists?

Additionally, babies can't even work yet! At the very least you "anarchists" should give them to opportunity to grow and work before calling for their slaughter. In Vietnam the women of the VC (Freedom Fighters) could shoot a rifle while delivering babies themselves in the fields. Imagine what such a baby could grow up to be. We must protect these potential workers for NATO, as anarchists.

One writer calls another "a literal pile of shit" and you object to....the misuse of "literal"!?

We can be convinced to accept, "a literate pile of shit" if you prefer?

you've spent enough time here to know better waynetroll, stop centering your feelings

According to Wayne's galaxy brain logic it seems he's giving permission to Indigenous folks of Turtle Island to attack and occupy his home as long as they do not commit atrocities, war crimes, or massacre him. Wayne, please provide your home address to your the local tribes whose land you are occupying with your message of surrender.

Basically according to the current Decolonization discourse we're allowed to attack any settler who's deemed not criticizing or attacking their own colonial system. All this time I wanted to attack the local football field and couldn't... since I thought ZIONISTS and ISRA-HELL were the only problem!

A bunch of white settler anarchists on the other side of the planet from the Israeli slaughter of Gaza:

“But what if Native Americans come and attack ME????!!”

Nice to know what’s really important to you in all this

Good luck squaring the circle of “standing with the oppressed” with “not interrogating my own position.” A word of advice, it will only get tougher as the empire keeps crumbling.

Wayne has forgotten -- if he ever learned it in the first place -- an ancient anarchist analytical principle that the people who live in a particular place are not the same as the state that governs them. With Wayne's typical Anti-Imperialist "logic" all white Christian Americans (the "dominant caste") regardless of their personal political beliefs or actions, are legitimate targets for Native and Black American resistance to white Christian dominance,, including expropriation and (re?)occupation -- and murder if they dare to defend their homes. But no war crimes, pretty please.

I brought up the fact that every nation state is born out of war and legal chicanery not to justify the existence of Israel, but to remind Wayne of the ancient anarchist analytical principle about the origins of the state. For principled anarchists (that is, those not infected with the disease of Anti-Imperialism), no state is legitimate, ever. Some anarchists recognize that the hypermilitarized ethnosupremacist state of Israel is oppressive to anyone not part of their "dominant caste" as well as being an easily identifiable threat to world peace, but we also recognize how Russia (which oppresses its Muslim minority and now its Ukrainian neighbor), the US (which oppresses its native and black minorities), China (which oppresses Uighurs and occupied Tibetans), etc, oppress, dispossess, imprison, and murder their residents. There is no state that does not identify/create some subordinate caste to target for oppression. This is anarchism 101, but Wayne, in his desperate attempt to be relevant to international geopolitics, is only interested in the latest media-sponsored spectacle of war crimes.

"Jews (or anyone else) do not have a "right" to live on land stolen from Palestinians through war and legal chicanery. "

When/how was it stolen?

What is it that was stolen?

You see, Wayne, all this ia built upon ressentiment... of an alienation myth.

There was only a British Mandate, that the British called Palestine. There was no such thing as a "Palestine" prior to 1917, when the region was "liberated" from the Ottoman Empire, thanks to Sykes, Picot and Lawrence... both agents of Western empires. What "Palestine" was stolen?

Jews have the right to live there, just like the Bedouins had. Jews have the right to live any fucking place on the planet.

But so do I.

Because this is anarchism, Wayne, not nationalism.

Wayne, in 2018 there were mass protests in Gaza, which were shot up by the IOF. Like with Ukraine, I get the impression that your knowledge of the issue is very shallow and you’re just parachuting in with anarcho platitudes because it’s a good time to promote your book or something.

Another problem with denouncing things happening on the other side of the planet is that often NO ONE really knows what they’re talking about. Israel is a US client state that always gets blank checks with no accountability, it has a well established pattern of lying about war crimes and later being forced to admit they lied, once enough confusion was created. If you assume your big moral brain can judge the reality of any claim at face value then you’re apt to be taken in by online propagandists counting on your hubris. (Again, you haven’t shown the greatest critical clarity on Ukraine either…)

And beyond that - what is an Israeli civilian? Almost all of them serve in the military and many continue to serve in the reserves and in various settler militias. There’s an asymmetry in the fact that they get to be civilians as long as they’re not in uniform, but Palestinians are denied ever to be civilians. We can also talk about the asymmetry of Zionism being supported by states, including the wealthiest states in the region and world, and opposed mostly by movements with a lot of popular support but little political power.

To Anon (Wayne in 2018....): I find it difficult to figure out just what you are arguing. I suspect you are opposing my opposition to Hamas' atrocities. "What is an Israeli civilian?" you ask. You are, I suppose, implying that it is okay to kill nonresistant unarmed Israeli civilians since they might, at other times, be armed soldiers. I don't know if you are including children and old people here.

Hamas' war crimes do not change the fact that Israel is an oppressive colonial settler state and that the Palestinians are justified in fighting against it. But anarchists should reject atrocities and war crimes even when carried out by "our side."

Wayne,
If it is true that you support the liberation of one group of people (A) who are being prevented from that liberation by another group of people (B), and it is also true that all non-civilian, adult combatants (P) were at one time non-combatant children (Q), does it not follow that the liberation and self-determination of A could be logically achieved by the preemptive elimination of B's P during the Q stage?

!Q = !P .: !B .: A = :-)

It's simple math really that will allow for fewer "atrocities" and "war crimes" by "our side".

I'll leave it to you to assign who represents A and who represents B.

You dingus.

"Almost all of them serve in the military and many continue to serve in the reserves and in various settler militias. "

Aaaaaah, so a justification for atrocities committed by jihadist thugs then?

Woopsie!

But perhaps have you forgot that tiny small irrelevant detail... that military service is mandatory in Israel, so everyone considered able to fight is theoretically part of the reserve force, and dodging the draft would mean -like under every damn state on the planet- desertion. Tho I get it... since it's Jooooz, everything's much, much worse.

Palestinians are doing non-Hamas things all over the place, so we can stop acting like supporting Hamas is the only pro-Palestinian position. Good job to those who didn't make the common "revolutionary" westerner mistake and support any and all types of "resistance". Bad job to those who did make that common mistake and let Hamas and Islamic Jihad become the only "side" they could see in a struggle with a lot of internal and external complexity in Gaza. Seeing the arguments about how useful it is to protest trickling into the comments now ...thrilling. Counting down to another round of arguments amongst anarchists about whether or not anarchists should fall in line with liberal NGO-led movements or act on their own. Prediction: the same dupes who couldn't utter a word against Hamas will be kissing liberal peaceful-protest ass because the right political wannabes have appointed themselves as representatives of "the movement". What has Chris Hedges been up to anyway? Has he started denouncing anarchists yet as outside agitators in the movement for Palestinian liberation?

Liberals are not calling for a ceasefire apart from a handful of representatives. Like in Ukraine, like anywhere else, empire is a bipartisan issue.

Yes, PFLP is a communist faction in the Palestinian resistance. That’s about the best you’re gonna do if you’re trying to support only Palestinians with acceptable politics. Why you would feel that way I don’t understand. I guess according to your point of view Palestinians who support Hamas (many - they were voted into power) don’t deserve to be protected from genocide? It’s not worth bothering to stand against Israel unless the Palestinians were anarchists, is that what you’re telling us?

Jesus fucking Christ - anarchists have given their lives fighting alongside Nazis in Ukraine, but THIS is too much for some reason!? I really hope you were against that, too- whoever you are…

Liberals are not yet calling for that, but they will be. It doesn't matter if people voted in Hamas in a million years ago. Were you around for the anti-War shit after 9/11? I can understand why you don't comprehend this position if you weren't, but if you were I don't know what your deal is. What about the Arab Spring? Anarchists were plenty capable of supporting Egyptian resistance to Mubarak without supporting the Muslim Brotherhood or the military government. Maybe you weren't around for that either.

Anyway...

Anarchists can act in solidarity with Palestinians without that having anything to do with Hamas or any other political party. There is no need to support a political party just because a group you are in solidarity with decided once to vote for them. Taking a strong anarchist position and calling out authoritarians among the oppressed is one way a lot of people decided anarchism was interesting to them after 9/11. When anarchists just made themselves invisible "allies" all that it did was add support for politicians or politicians-to-be's projects. Even if there were literally zero Palestinian anarchists (there are more than zero), anarchists can still take anarchist positions against Israel, for Palestinian liberation, and against authoritarian parties.

You know, this isn't even a new thing. Anarchists rightly criticized Kropotkin for taking the stance he did in WWI. Did that mean anarchists were against the victims of nationalist wars? Fuck no it didn't.

“Were you around for the anti-War shit after 9/11?”

Yes, been thinking about it a lot and I have no idea what you’re trying to say by asking this. I don’t recall as you suggest that “calling out authoritarians among the oppressed” impressed a lot of people into becoming anarchists. I remember people being drawn to our militancy and our willingness to directly confront things like the US waging a disastrously brutal military response to terrorism even though protests were banned and pro-war cancel culture took hold. I also remember a lot of anarchists who had a humble attitude towards learning about/from and even working in solidarity with different groups that were not strictly anarchist like Zapatistas, Black liberation movements and yes Palestinians. I don’t know if I need to go on or comment in depth on the whole era, that’s just what I recall! Maybe you’re right and we converted a ton of those people by criticizing their struggles from a safe distance. But I don’t recall that.

“Anarchists can act in solidarity with Palestinians without that having anything to do with Hamas or any other political party.”

Yes, that’s my point! That’s fine! Just shut up about Hamas and stop denouncing the Palestinians for the ways they are resisting if we agree that Israel/US/the west obviously have the upper hand and the responsibility for the situation as it has developed over the past decades. It’s not necessary to make pious denunciations which distract from understanding the basic power dynamics of the situation. If anyone’s going to be mistaken and think as an anarchist you support right wing theocracy, then you’ve probably been putting across a pretty bad idea of what anarchists do and think. Meanwhile who do you expect to impress? Liberal Zionists?? Bookfair nihiiists????

What we clearly disagree about is that I don’t think denouncing Hamas is denouncing the Palestinians any more than I thought denouncing the Taliban, al-Quaeda, or ISIS. I legitimately think that there are Palestinians, who are indeed struggling for liberation form Israel, that also do not see Hamas as an embodiment of their struggles and aspirations. Who is going to take a solid anti-authoritarian position if it isn’t anarchists? Who is going to denounce oppressive institutions whether they are painted as the main enemy (Zionists) or the heroic freedom fighters (Hamas)? When Palestinians are censored from criticizing Hamas, isn’t that something anarchists should point out? It isn’t even about “Denouncing” anyone. It is about clearly stating what anarchists are for and against, then acting from that position instead of adopting someone else’s positions just because they are closer, more connected with, or of the same social category as an oppressed group of people. What good is it as anarchists to do otherwise? We’re a drop in the bucket numerically. We’re mostly despised. We’re not at all essential to any of these struggles and we have been shown over and over and over again that we will be tossed aside when we’re not useful to liberal organizations that try to dominate social movements.

I perfectly respect your point, but I do think it’s weird that people here keep implying that liberals are supporting the Palestinian cause. Where do you see that??

they probably mean the rad libs, not the suit-and-tie, law-and-order libs

I warn you Lumpy! The world of psychic phenomena is not to be taken lightly!

"Just shut up about Hamas and stop denouncing the Palestinians for the ways they are resisting"

Yes, and follow your leaders, you anarchists. Hamas good because Palestine was STOLEN. Jew bad coz they live they live there. Now SHUDDUP!

To Anon (Liberals...) (who seems to be addressing my comments, I think):
(a) You write, "according to your point of view Palestinians who support Hamas (many - they were voted into power) don’t deserve to be protected from genocide? " Apparently you think that, because I oppose Hamas' atrocities in Israel, therefore I also oppose defense of Palestinians in Gaza by Hamas or anyone else. This is completely illogical and contradicts everything I said in point (1) about supporting the Palestinian armed resistance to Israel while opposing war crimes.

(b) Hamas was voted into office some six years ago. Since then there have been polls showing that most Gazans don't want them anymore, as well as popular demonstrations against them. Still I would support them--in defending Gaza!

(c) "It’s not worth bothering to stand against Israel unless the Palestinians were anarchists, is that what you’re telling us?" No I am not, as I have written here and elsewhere. But many of the anarchists at this site seem to be saying that--and similar things about Ukraine.

"Bad job to those who did make that common mistake and let Hamas and Islamic Jihad become the only "side" they could see in a struggle with a lot of internal and external complexity in Gaza."

It's not as much the fault of the naive liberal college activists, than the fault of the Muslim Brotherhood and uni/college admins and student unions not auditing enough those they,re funding or allowing a space on campuses. The MB (like the PFLP if they're really distinct) is a secretive global octopus with such a variety of ramifications that you might end up supporting violent Jihadists by just giving a few dollars in donation for an FNB type of event on a campus, without knowing anything about it. As far as the "Palestine" cause goes, anything should be looked with a tight level of criticism.

Let's look into the relative freezing in Jihadist activity from 2002 to 2010, that correlated with the suspension of Al Taqwa Bank's operations by the US government. That "banks" is the shadow financial network of the Muslim Brotherhood, and they operate in ways that make funding untraceable from end to end. Not willing to defend Dubya's War on Terror politics, but that's at least a detail of major significance.

"you might end up supporting violent Jihadists by just giving a few dollars in donation for an FNB type of event on a campus"

large claims have a burden of proof, especially when you seem to follow up with "violent jihadists always bad" as a categorical imperative. we're anarchists around here, so how bout some walter benjamin or something?

These are assumptions based on documented evidence (available with a web search) of how Hamas and the MB have multilayered financing schemes that reach to Western campuses, like nonprofits and charities. If you got a group at your campus showing pics of, say, Leyla Khaled along with the usual Palestinian flag it's pretty evident this group will have ties to PFLP, and maybe more. MB is a secretive (not secret) network, which means their inner dealings, connections and financing schemes aren't made public in the first place.. so prove *what* and *how*?

so ... """documented evidence""" [of] "secretive (not secret) network, which means their inner dealings, connections and financing schemes aren't made public in the first place.." got it.

you have suspicions and accusations that you likely got from their political enemies. either you need to think harder or you need to shill elsewhere, k?

Here is a search engine we recommend you to use, in your first steps venturing into CYBERSPACE:

https://duckduckgo.com

In the search bar (the text entry box with a magnifying glass sign on the right), enter the words "muslim brotherhood funding schemes" and wait for results. These will be links to web pages featuring relevant content pertaining to news and research having been done on the topic of Muslim Brotherhood funding schemes. The first few links you'll get, depending on your location, are especially interesting. Like these for instance:

https://globalnews.ca/news/10014362/cra-audit-canadian-charity-hamas-net...

https://www.fpri.org/article/2011/12/muslim-brotherhood-organizations-in...

https://jiss.org.il/en/alhasbi-unveiling-the-muslim-brotherhoods-busines...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_on_American%E2%80%93Islamic_Relations

https://www.newsweek.com/cair-not-only-inspires-terrorists-its-historica...

Also please be aware that these sources and others were likely not curated and approved by Muslim Brotherhood-related organizations and fake news sites, so they're surely propaganda for the Jew... errrr ZIONIST global cabal. /s

and don't forget! the original claim here was "food not bombs funds the muslim brotherhood" ... which apparently, is not inherently absurd OR racist to whoever the fuck is the target of this cute little psyop. Certainly not anarchists worthy of the label but whatever!

If you can’t tell the difference, point the finger at yourself because the antisemite is you.

…better it should say Zionism, Judaism and Jewishness. Three different and very real things!!!!

Everybody knows this

They don't know about seething Abrahamic ressentiment though, do they?

Do you mean the ressentiment of being hindered or excluded from their Kingdom of Heaven? That sort of worldview is a utopianist fantasy which will always encounter opposition during its pursuit.

Tell us you know absolutely nothing about Judaism without explicitly saying it

19:51 shows a very typical Christian anti-Semitic ignorance of Judaism. It's quite funny they bring up these ignorances of exclusion and ressentiment when in fact it is they who use these anti-Semitic ignorances to fuel their seething ressentiment because they feel excluded from a joyful life.
Sad really. No mazel.

19:15 here, umm no, I'm just a philologist who latched onto the "seething with ressentiment" meme and combined it with the term "Abrahamic" some previous commenter used which describes X-tian, and Muslim, not just Judean you moron!

Typo 19:51 Hey, I'm just replying myself to "seething Abrahamic ressentiment" Why don't you go after that anon?

Fail (x2)

Hey brah, "joyful life" is Utopianist, it's a spook!

I think you mean ' joyful life ' is an Abrahamic mindset, like, we have a god as our savior, therefore we should be joyful and rejoice in His love. God = Patriarchal spooky dude.( for the kids ;))

I think we know you mean (((Abrahamic mindset))), nazi brah. No need to hide your white power! Be proud of your Xtian educations!

Zionism is a movement within Judaism, yes. The belief in the right of Jews to go back to their former Judea, from which they flew after having been genocided by the Roman Empire.

Muslims have equally asserted their right to have their own countries in the ME, under the wing of the British Empire, and now they got several theocracies with dangerous militaries, and most are aligned against this right claimed by Jews to have their country in the Middle East.

The "rights of states" or the "right of a People" are all within Modernist nationalist state-building narratives... this applies EQUALLY to Israel and Palestine. Palestine is targeted by a huge Western empire using Israel as a proxy? Israel is surrounded by several Muslim countries with strong armies, and with the backing of superpowers lile Russian and China, that are all using Palestine as a proxy.

Both have "their" rights to exist as political entities.... but equally in both cases this is *bullshit*.

Got ressentiment against ZIONIST-THO-NOT-JEWISH-BUT-MAYBE INVADERS? Just join Hamas coz that's the ressentiment they use. They also got their whole education system loaded with Holocaust denial and worship of Adolf (look it up).

Wanna go after these "ARAB SAVAGES" desecrating the Holy Land and killing Our People? Just join the IDF, coz that's the ressentiment they're into.

Anarchists have no skin in this battle of nationalist bullshit. Or at least they'd better be. The Mecca, Mount Zion, the Vatican, fucking Tibet and the Ganges are symbols and tools of hierarchic, mass enslavement, and the denial of the Self.

Quit following spooks, quit being their pawns.

Spending hours every day trying to convince others of your reactionary, egoTistical worldview is the mark of a narcissist extrovert that is failing at individualistic authenticity. The idea that if you can convince others of how right you and how wrong they are is the spookiest of spooks. Good job, brow.

Why you name dropping Walter Benjamin, Lumpy? You looking for some street cred?

Some breaking news is that the largest fleet of warships NATO has ever assembled is gathering in the eastern Mediterranean Sea. Can you feel the excitement like I can?

The powerful friends of Ukraine (NATO) are going to liberate the Middle East and all you "anarchists" should support them.

For the self determination of the Ukrainian working people and women of Ukraine and Palestine!

This is a sincere question, but do you have a source on this? Because I was trying to verify it on Twitter and it has every quality of fake news (multiple posts with small variations on this wording, no sources that I can find except fake news websites that don't actually post news, tags of Twitter accounts that look news-like). This can happen for real events, where troll-bots spam real news and the sources get buried in all the spam. But usually when I see this it has been fake rumors spread to stoke the flames.

Anarcho-NATOists like Wayne are in contact. Consider it verified.

I think I've reached my limit on this list.
I find it difficult to respond to much of the discussion (even aside from the he-man cussing) because it is often unclear just what the poster is saying when criticizing my comments. Where are they coming from and what opinion is being upheld?

Some posters are "on the side" of the Palestinians, which to these anarchists means not criticizing Hamas in any way. They argue that it is wrong to criticize the methods of struggle used by an oppressed people. They ignore anarchists' disagreements with all statist forces, let alone reactionary theocratic mass murderers.

Other anarchists refuse to support either side (there are none who support Israel, at least on this site!). All states are bad and oppressive they point out, so none can be supported. That Palestinians are stateless is ignored--after all, they mostly *want* a state, don't they? That the Palestinian Arabs are oppressed by the Zionist state (a junior ally of US imperialism) should be pretty clear to everyone, but somehow they can't see it. (There is the same problem when discussing Ukraine. A great many people can see the hypocrisy of the US state in supporting Ukraine but opposing the Palestinians.)

A couple of people appear to be more-or-less in agreement with me (See Anon 22:11 Denouncing the Palestinians....). I am on the side of the Palestinian people due to their oppression by the Israelis. I support their struggle even when led by awful, reactionary, forces. But I do draw a line at atrocities in war, such as killing infants and children, young adults and other civilians who do not resist and are unarmed, etc. But these evil actions do not change the basic oppressive and exploitative relations between Israel and Palestinians, between Ukraine (with its cluster munitions) and Russia, between the oppressed nations of the world and U.S. and all other imperialisms.

Some of those who are critiquing my views do not make clear where they are coming from. They seem more interested in finding some kind of logical error in my views than in expounding their own, sometimes mixing up the first and second type of opinion. Suddenly we are supposed to discuss the possibilities of Native Americans attacking the European-American population and I am challenged to find differences between that and Hamas. Phooey.

wayne, shouldn't you be used to this place by now?

yes, your 2nd-to-last paragraph is the reasonable, normal perspective for anyone who hasn't completely lost their mind, don't worry

Another poster here. At least Wayne is consistent with his core beliefs, which equates to loyalty, sooOoo in layman terms he's genuine and you know where he stands.
He also acknowledges the nuance between pre-Marxist primitive communism practised by most indigenous societies and that of the materialistic Marxist form of Leviathan. He even acknowledges the sovereignty of the individual, so generally speaking you get a well-balanced deregulated and equity focussed policy from him. Just my 2 cents.

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