ANews Podcast 339 – 11.10.23

 ANews Podcast 339 – 11.10.23

From ANews Podcast

Welcome to this week’s podcast. This podcast is on anarchist activity, ideas, and comments from the previous week on anarchistnews.org

Notes:

What’s New
w/ chisel & Nestor Fuckno!

editorial: One Mod's Manifesto
read by Nestor Fuckno

TOTW: Leaving Marks
w/ special guest Alex, Petra & Vail!

Music & Samples:

Ahulabrum – 1996, Kitsap Peninsula, Washington
Ahulabrum – Thicker Blood 
Ahulabrum -1970s, Sierra Nevada Mountains, California
Ahulabrum – Ignus Fatuus (Fool’s Fire)
from Strange Lights Portend Their Presence (EP 2022) 
A.K.A. The Bigfoot Noise EP

Mr. Bungle – Quote Unquote – Travolta – HQ Video – Lyrics

editorial: One Mod's Manifesto

1. Anonymity. I support anonymous comments. Anonymous comments are one of the benefits that anarchistnews provides to an increasingly polarized and silo-ized population. Obviously it comes with problems, but to me (not to all the moderators, but definitely to me), the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. Sometimes one’s history gets in the way of making the point you want to make, sometimes it’s too scary to make the perfectly valid point you want to make under a name. 

2. Non-sectarian. Non-sectarian means that people I disagree with get their posts left up all the time, both comments and stories. Non-sectarian does NOT mean that comments that are shallow and hateful and easy should be left up.

3. Registering. People who register and post under their register get a different kind of leeway, because they are building a reputation, good or bad. I think that it’s better for readers to know that, for example, Sir Einzige says some fucked up shit, rather than to just disappear those opinions. Whereas when anon calls someone a retard, for example, it is not creating any kind of trail, and there is no reason to keep it up. Another way to say that is the registered users are creating a context for their comments, unlike anon commenters.

4. Humor. Humor is both important and subjective. So I for one will err on the side of things that I think are funny, like "just the tip" as a double entendre in a headline, for example, when someone else sees that as sexist and violent. There is no way to keep things funny for everyone. Mods argue with each other about whether something is funny or not, and readers have to suffer through that pingpong occasionally. We are all at each other’s mercy in various ways. While i emphasize conversation in a lot of this explanation, conversation (what Bohm calls dialogue) is not linear and again, humor is important. Conversation can be (though it's rare) prompted by snarky comments as well as good-faith arguments. And for that matter, good faith is not absolutely required for relevant, insightful conversations, just makes it a lot easier and more likely.

5. Conversation and arguments. I think that anews is important because there are so few ways for people who don’t talk to each other usually to even have access to how other anarchists think. There are so many echo chambers where confirmation bias is the absolute rule. That said, it’s hard for people who have mostly or only been talking to people who agree with them, to understand how deep the disconnect goes, whether in historical understanding, accepted and expected jargon, associations, etc. On top of that, there is bad faith argumentation, including intentional rhetorical slips (slippery slope, guilt by association, etc), or just people’s lack of experience with how to make a good argument. There are plenty of times when someone makes what seems to me to be a jump in a conversation, for example when they leap from someone's use of a common word to labeling that person a neonazi. That jump could be because they know more about conversations around that particular topic, or it could be that they're jumping to conclusions, or it could be that they're distracting from the point because they don't want to be wrong, or they don't trust the anon they're talking to, etc. Fleshing out the reasoning behind what you're saying is a sign of respect for what you're saying as well as helpful to the lurking readers who are the biggest part of any online audience.

6. Talking shit about the site. After well over 10 years of people repeatedly coming on anews to complain about it, it’s just boring. No one is making you be here. No one is saying that a single site of any kind will satisfy everyone. No one is keeping you from making your own site, or finding one that works better for you. Exercise some agency. There are some complaints that are fair, but most comments that bitch about the comments are a waste of space. Write what you want to see, for fuck’s sake. That’s what we all want for you.

7. Talking online, especially to anonymous. Your mileage may of course vary, but i have found that what makes the most sense for online anonymous communication is to keep in mind that you're speaking to a mass of people who you don't know and crucially, who don't know you, and to keep assumptions as minimal as possible. Online, especially with anon, is not the place to talk about any of the really hot topics without either doing a lot of work to set a foundation so that people understand where you're coming from, or being prepared for a lot of boring repetition/name-calling/circular talking/etc. The more we're prepared to back up what we're saying, or prepare people for what we're saying before we say it, the more meaningful conversations will generally be.

8.  Authoritarian behavior. This site started out, before people were so online and before 4chan was a thing, as being very much anti-comment-removal. I believe the idea was that people would learn to self-regulate, and also that people who couldn't learn to do that weren't actually hurting anyone, because "names will never hurt me" and/or "what doesn't kill us makes us stronger." A lot has happened since then, like, really a lot, for those of you not old enough to remember or so old that you've forgotten, and we've all learned some lessons, both positive and negative. So comment removal has become something we do more often. One way to look at it is the not-totally-excellent metaphor of anews as a house, and commenters as guests. To me that metaphor includes the idea that again, nothing will ever satisfy everyone, and that people are actually able to make their own guest-friendly spaces, and that is a better focus than trying to make one thing suit everyone's needs. That's somewhat disingenuous, as the person who set up anews was skilled in many ways not available to many, including in his stubborness, and that anarchist infrastructure is rare and so on, but the principle remains. We get to make the thing that we want to make, and ideally help other people make what they want to make too. Decentralization, right? On another hand, the better known an anarchist resource becomes, the more likely it is to be used and fucked with by our enemies. And by enemies here, i mean not the half-assed JZ clones calling everyone liberals, but actual anti-anarchists. And the participation from those people can be pretty fucking sophisticated and subtle. And since anews is supposed to be open to the newly-post-IGDers as well as old-timers, some will be slower to pick up on anti-anarchist tendencies than others. Sometimes you all comment in response in a way that makes it a learning experience (which we love, by the way), but sometimes responses look like an anon talking to itself, or just two (or more) anons missing each other completely, as so often happens online. Not trying to get too in the weeds here, but if you take nothing else from this, know that we don't like removing comments, we think about it a lot and in many directions.

9. WE'RE NOT HOMOGENOUS. Finally, another reminder that thecollective disagrees with itself frequently. So this write up is just from my point of view, and i'm not speaking for anyone else.

There are 41 Comments

Really loved the conversation. Especially Alex's remarks on traces, I'll be thinking about that.

I have a close friend who I have always disagreed with when it comes to the question of permanence, at least in some way. They embrace the ephemeral absolutely, while I feel more ambivalent and have a desire to participate in and contribute to something lasting. I think this tension comes from my sense that I can't create something lasting without connections, and so I emphasize long-term relationships while they emphasize a person's inner experience. In some way, in light of what's being said here, it's almost as if you can't help but contribute to something lasting. Especially in anarchy, that's perhaps what we're all doing in spite of ourselves.

I also (obviously) like the idea of the project being as personal as my life, of my life being the project. And I don't see that as being infinitesimal (weak) the way some people do. It's kind of like, the cut is closer so it's deeper. That's the sensitivity I was talking about in the prompt, and like Alex said it's meaningful. That alone is huge and is at least a beginning to an anarchic life (more than a beginning, if you ask me). Not to inflate my own importance (or the importance of any single person) or whatever. I can't make waves, but I can touch people and move things around, smash some things, leave some signs for others. Signs that, again like Alex said, refer people back to each other and social relations, and back to the moment of creation or the reason for creation or something like that. There's also a lot to be said here about (for lack of better words) spirituality, and about family. Too much for me speak on at the moment.

Might have more thoughts later on...

minona, you should consider writing editorials for the podcast. just a thought.

i'm the above anon.

i agree. the line between self expression and marketing in a world of commodified expression is basically non existent. 8:33, you, for example, are also providing content. to be pure we should all hide in holes and never talk to anyone. that's my strategy most of the time.

Perhaps a lesson here is that to put an end to exploitation one must first start by not willingly allowing others exploit you.

interesting. i put less emphasis on the willingness, and more on the ubiquity regardless of intention. and also, perhaps question your use of "exploitation" in every context.

This is a ridiculous conflation of exploitation with collaboration. I don't imagine Anews would be raking in the gold coins from me writing an editorial.

Lots of anarchist projects are labors of love or projects of desire (ie, not coerced). In my printing project I offer to put together and print the poetry of other people. I can't offer any money for this, as I have almost none and certainly do not make any money from giving things away for free, so I offer an opportunity to make something meaningful and pleasurable: turning ideas and words into physical object that can be shared with other people near and far. Also, of course, an opportunity to connect and work together on something, building relationships.

I really like the idea of this show but I get so fucking annoyed of the self righteous comments and opinions of the speakers that for me this show is just to unbearable to listen too. It overshadows all the news and makes it more about the opinion of these people. Can’t imagine any one enjoying this and it seems wrong for a platform that gives home to so many different voices.

wondering if you were aware that you can just not listen to this.... like it is just that simple.

counter-counterpoint.

you could record your own conversation about the topic and send it in. we could have (at least) four different viewpoints for the topic, and that would allow more of a range of opinions.

or just keep complaining. whatever.

Anews is a vampire
Sent to drain
Secret destroyers
Hold you up to the flames
And what do I get
For my pain?
Betrayed desires
And a piece of the game

Even though I know
I suppose I'll show
All my cool and cold
Like hobos

Despite all my rage, I am still just anon in their cage
Despite all my rage, I am still just anon in their cage
Someone will say, "What's moderated can never be saved"
Despite all my rage, I am still just anon in their cage

response: One Commenters Thoughts (part 1)

1. Anonymity. I would generally agree that anonymity has its ups and downs. There are many reasons for and against anonymous writings and comments in reference to specific situations. I’m glad its can be done here in this particular venue, thank you for that, but the idea that “sometimes it’s too scary to make the perfectly valid point” is pretty fucking weak (and I mean that in a totally non-macho non-ablest way).

2. Non-sectarian. This fairly broad and nebulous definition of non-sectarian is not very useful and calling something “shallow and hateful” is pretty subjective and basically does leave it up to what you agree or don’t agree with.

3. Registering. This sounds a little too much like sex offender stuff here, but ok, about what I expect. Maybe we should also go door-to-door so we can explain what we mean by “retard”? And, thank you Sir Einzige for saying “some fucked up shit”, while I often disagree with your comments, it would be fairly sterile around here without you.

4. Humor. Has there been humor here? Where? I haven’t seen it on the site or heard it on the podcasts. The few brief glimpses of something resembling anything funny seem to disappear fairly quickly into the cyber vapors of hyper-moderation or fall on the tone-deaf ears of the performative seriousness of your average contemporary “anarchist”. But, anyway, some ANews moderators walked into a bar…. yeah right, just kidding.

5. Conversation and arguments. Ok, even a broken clock is right twice a day. (That analogy might go over some people’s heads in the contemporary micro-millisecond digitally-determined reality.)

6. Talking shit about the site. That’s a bit of a cop-out. It was always my understanding that this project was intended to be a post-left site for interesting discussions, and, sorry to say, there is very little of that remaining here. Much of it feels somewhat NPR’ish (in topics, tone, language, and sentiment). Part of that is the anarchist space’s fault for having very little of anything with relevance to do or say in these dark times, but i don’t think filling in the gaping holes with IGD reprints, a slew of boring reports, generally useless updates, and mostly irrelevant topics of the week is the alternative. Does a watered-down, baseline, 101, ecumenical, and dare I say often anarcho-progressive approach satisfy anyone? Maybe 10 years was a few too long, it usually is for projects. There is no harm in recognizing this. Everything runs its course, I know I have held onto projects way too long after they became less interesting, lost their focus, or just wore out. I will also add that I (and others) HAVE written some of “what I want to see” here (writings, announcements, and comments), and sometimes they even get posted or stay up after they pass (or slips through) the collective litmus process, but just as often they don’t, often for reasons I don’t quite get (admittedly, sometimes I do). So, I guess you can call it all “talking shit” if you like, but taking some of it a little more seriously might actually help the project. Besides, I know that ANews’s creators, and some still involved in it, also have much of your own fecal matter ‘tween your teeth, so let’s not lie about flossing now, I can see the brown stains from here. Hell, we may have even swapped some deteriorating dukie back and forth like teens sharing bubble gum at times, so let’s not get to up there above it all now.

(... continued on next comment)

response: One Commenters Thoughts (part 2)

7. Talking online, especially to anonymous. Thanks mom. We’ll try to keep it in mind. Contrary to how it seems out there, this ain’t most people’s first rodeo. Conversations will be as meaningful as the topic’s relevance and who is discussing it.

8. Authoritarian behavior. Not sure why this section is even titled the way it is, other than to boogie-man your way through it, especially when you use phrases like “anti-anarchist tendencies”, as if that could not be applied to so much here, or do you really mean something else? This section should be titled: “Yeah, we know we started with an anti-comment-removal policy (or at least intent), but, well, we didn’t like what we were seeing, and you know, times got crazy (fingers wiggling in the air) so we had to start policing it, and well, this is our house and we don’t like the mud you tracked in, so if you don’t like it go somewhere else” or “Only we know what is good/bad or useful/garbage”, or “We don’t like doing this, it hurts us more than it does you…. swoosh, gone!”. This is not in the least bit convincing, especially when you make your own slights in the process. Also, you don’t need to be a “JZ clone” to see that liberals (along with their adjacent rabid radical leftists) make up a significant portion of the posters and commenters here. At least own that this thing has gotten far away from its initial intent and usefulness. It is going through the motions of a dead-ended situation. And, yes, it is yours to do as you wish with, of course, but what the current collective has chosen to do with it is disappointing, sorry to say. I am not even sure the original collective would even recognize this current form, or, maybe more importantly, have even been able to avoid this situation, so, it seems possibly unavoidable. Maybe not. Who knows? This doesn’t mean that hard discussions don’t need to be had and difficult decisions don’t need to be made.

9. WE'RE NOT HOMOGENOUS. Not homogeneous perhaps, but far from heterogeneous (not that is necessarily better). From what I have witnessed here, it feels much closer to the former, which might be fine if it were acknowledged more honestly, at least that how it comes accross. I am certainly glad I am not working on a collective public project of this sort, so thanks for the good times I suppose.

10. So, what now? I am curious to see.

GOOD COMMENT. ANON FOR COLLECTIVE LEADER 2024.

What are you responding to? There's a podcast?

WHERE ARE THE NOTES FOR WE DEAF ANARCHS? DON'T BE ABLEIST ANEWS PODCAST COLLECTIVE FUCK

you may think you've been around the internet for a while, but you're sure acting like everything is about you and everyone should know you're unique knowledge and capacity adn you're the only one here.

yeah, ok, that makes so much sense. i'll keep that in mind. can you offer some examples how you were offended?

here we see two possibilities, neither good!

1. this anon is somehow at once, quite articulate, spends a lot of time here and a complete fool that doesn't bother or is otherwise unable to think through how most of these suggestions are trash and will go terribly wrong because the internet is a hellscape OR

2. this is one of the long time, pathetically obsessed, severely unwell, reactionary trolls that absolutely pours countless hours of their life in to their incredibly petty, tedious and hyper focused campaign against a relatively small, independent media project.

oh and they think they're SUPER CLEVER and you're all stupid and gay or whatever and so is therapy!

I like comment therapy. You get to use your brain and you get a bump when you push the button. If you can't produce comments what can you make?

OR
just a a moronic leftist apologist?

cool, socialist to socialist who thinks they are an anarchist! ANews and the podcast continue to spread anarchy like a thin coating of nothingness around the globe!

“WE'RE NOT HOMOGENOUS“

Prove it npc.
There is a turtle on its backed, baking in the sun. Why aren’t you doing anything about it?

Bonus fun fact. A! Uploaded his consciousness. Then he went all Wintermute. He is the Internet now.

Yes, my name is "Jeremiah", but I don't plan on "registering"! What is this, the DMV or the Social Security Administration? The whole registration policy (if you're open to critical feedback) is pretty lame and an anachronistic LEFT-over from the early days (so is the "topic of the weak" for that matter). And speaking of critical (but well-intended) feedback, maybe the Collective might try responding to some of the helpful feedback being offered by readers/participants around here (instead of deleting anything that offends Nettle or Donny), because the podcast, in particular, needs A LOT OF HELP! It's virtually unlistenable and INCOMPREHENSIBLE and perhaps it's time to break with "tradition" and mix up the dull format a little bit ?

Jeremiah was a bull frog
Was a good friend of mine
I never understood a single word he said
But I helped him a-drink his wine
And he always had some mighty fine wine

Point #7 is extremely condenscending...is it based on PVRM?

Why did the thin-skinned mod delete this?

Fuck this manifesto mod's authoritarian apologetics! We anons see right through your bullshit justifications for these authoritarian practices and caste system you have going on. You are so mighty and wise you're punishing registered users with their own unwise comments and so mighty and wise you're punishing unregistered users by saying they're disposable. FuUuuuck you and your overly inflated ego! You are so completely full of yourself and your justifications you're making me sick.

I have given myself a name so according to your rules I am exempt as SirEinzige and deserve the same respect with my comments.

My comments are trash. Please delete. Thx.

Imitation is the feeblest form of seething ressentiment.

not registering a handle means fun opportunities for hijinks.

the point is you were wrong. sir e is registered and you are still posting as unverified anon.

like how any pet is a service animal if it is registered! :D :D how much does it cost to register here?

also, as if bots don't have autonomy--lol, ya think human commenters somehow are better to let speak than some copy paste malware bot?

on second thought you are right and i, a feeble bootlicker, am wrong. fuck the mods and their caste system.

Papers please.

To Our Moderators,

We Contemptuous know the wrath you face and welcome you to the darkness. Our nightmare fangs have only grown sharper like so many razors ready to eviscerate our enemies' flesh. Do not let these critiques of your practices of ruling your domain affect your mighty decisions.

Ignore their anarchist ideas.
Embrace the hatred.
Become one with We Contemptuous.
Welcum, Brothers.

Word Salad Word Salad Word Salad Word Salad
Word Salad Word Salad Word Salad Word Salad
Whirled whirled lettuce mess.

Hello The Contemptuous, I know how you feel, I am an ex-Delta Force operative and I admire your sense of esprit towards true anarchs. I will do your bidding and would happily TEAR THE FUCKING HEADS OFF THESE WEAK SELF-RIGHTEOUS AUTHORITARIAN LEFTIST COMMIE ASSWIPES. I am a fan of your rebellious freedom seeking poetic manifestos and battle cry. PlEEEEEase give me the signal and I shall unleash a maelstrom of righteous anarch fury upon these nancy boy lowlifes,,,I WILL CHOP THEIR FUCKING HEADS OF AND PISS DOWN THEIR FUCKING NECKS IF THEY DELETE THIS COMMENT,,,,,HOO-HAAAAA!!

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