Kafa on Modern Warfare in Ukraine

From Live Like the World is Dying

LISTEN HERE: https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co/episode/1e9a9c8c/kafa-on-modern-warfare-in-ukraine

Episode Summary

This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Margaret talks with Kafa (they/she), a Ukrainian anarchist fighter and NB from Crimea who is currently resisting Russian occupation, and has been since they were born. They talk about what the shape of modern warfare is like, what it’s like to live under occupation, and what it’s like to be an anarchist fighter in a larger State military formation.

Host Info

Margaret can be found on instagram at @margaretkilljoy. You can find more of her essays on Substack at: margaretkilljoy.substack.com

Publisher Info

This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness and Blue Sky @tangledwilderness.bsky.social You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness.

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Transcript

Speaker A:

Hello and welcome to Live like the World Is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host today, Margaret Killjoy. And today it is a an interview I have been really excited to do for a long time now. I hope that you all get a lot out of it. I can't even tell you what you're going to get out of it because I haven't done it yet, because I don't record these at the end. I record these at the beginning because why would I record them at the end when I would know what I'm supposed to be talking about? That doesn't make any sense. Anyway, it's a podcast about war and conflict and the way things sometimes go. But we are a proud member of the Channel Zero network of anarchist podcasts. And here's a jingle from another show on the network. The Final straw is a weekly anarchist radio show. It's fucking awesome. And you're never gonna hear me say fucking awesome on our show because we're FCC regulated. There's a black part of my heart that. That just flutters when you, when you talk like that talk.

Speaker B:

Then more yelling.

Speaker A:

It's a weird sort of, like, thing

Speaker B:

in a way, but also can get kind of crushing at times.

Speaker A:

Thefinalstrawradio.noblogs.org. And we're back. Okay, so if you could introduce yourself with your name, your pronouns, and maybe like, roughly where you live and what you're up to these days.

Speaker B:

Hello, everyone. My call sign is Kafa. I use they, she pronouns. And I'm an anarchist, a Ukrainian fighter, a drone operator, and a proud Enby. I was born in Crimea in the early 2000s, and that soul fact somehow started a lot of things in my life, and that ended up being one of the most important things that influenced me later on. I witnessed the Russian occupation when I was a teenager, and a series of events made me realize that I'm both a queer, an anarchist, and someone who doesn't believe in a dictatorship. So that's why I decided to join Ukrainian armed forces when the big war has started. And I guess that's why I'm here.

Speaker A:

Yeah, there's a lot of stuff I want to talk to you about. I want to talk about what's going on over there, but I also kind of want to ask you a lot of questions just about what war in general is like now, because I think it looks very different from what all the movies that I grew up watching looked like, where it's, you know, people with, well, Helmets and guns. Those are still probably part of it. But I guess before we even talk about that, I would like to talk a little bit more about, if you're comfortable with it, like, how did you become an anarchist?

Speaker B:

I like to answer that question in that way that being born into such a sunny, free, beautiful Ukrainian scenery next to the sea as Crimea is, I was not really given a choice to be free myself. Right. I got involved into queer and artisty stuff when I was a teenager. And then later on, after being forcibly displaced and moving to Kyiv, I got involved in the underground anarchy scene and the grassroots movement. And that's why it was very feminist, very trans feminist as well. And it kind of decided the course of my life. The kind of books I was reading, kind of people I was hanging out with were underdogs and punks. So, yeah, that's. That's why that makes sense.

Speaker A:

I want to ask a little bit about what the Russian occupation was like. It. You said it displaced you. One of the reasons I want to ask that is because I think the Tanki propaganda is really strong on the left in America. I don't know if you were aware of this, but I. I'm being sarcastic. You are. Have to deal with this all the time. There is a portion of the left that is convinced that Russia in all of its glory is somehow the same as the ussr, and also that the USSR was good. And there's a lot of propaganda that specifically seeks to kind of muddy the waters, that tries to sort of paint a like, samey samey. You know, Ukraine and Russia are both just modern capitalist nations, so why would we care at all? But it seems like you describe it as the Russian occupation, not like the Russian liberation of Crimea. What was that like?

Speaker B:

So I was a young teenager back then, and I just recently at that time discovered that I like other people that are the same gender as me, and I like weird queer stuff and I don't really feel like a girl whatnot. So all this somehow was at the same time as Crimea was getting occupied. And later, for a year, me and my family lived under occupation, which actually was not as gay as the tankies want to believe, I guess, because a lot of people got imprisoned. A lot of people were captured on the street for their beliefs. A lot of people were forced to move. The ones that actually were involved into any kind of political activities. People that were doing transgressive art as well were forced to move. For instance, I was attending kind of like a theater class after school, and the class got suspended. Because the people that were doing the class didn't really fit into the narrative of what Russia wanted to paint. So they actually, the whole propaganda, the whole political work started from changing the schools and the education system. That's what they were starting with. That was the aim, to kind of brainwash the children, because the children, as we now can see, were to become the soldiers. And they did accomplish that, as a matter of fact. So, yeah, it was not. Not a great experience, to be honest. And the kind of vibe that Crimea had before the occupation of a free, liberated, sexually emancipated place where the hippies and the outcasts would go to party and to dance and to listen to jazz and swim naked in the sea, that stopped immediately. That was not a thing anymore. Because this is not what you do under imperialist regime.

Speaker A:

I guess I'm under the impression that everyone all over the world is forced to pay attention to American politics. And so. And I kind of feel bad because I'm specifically interviewing you because I think that you have a lot of lessons that could be useful to an American audience and to folks who are not currently dealing with the situation that you're in. But I, From. From outside, from when I look at this stuff, and the more I try and read about Putin and resistance to Putin within Russia. It's been a while, but I used to know some Russian anarchists during the, you know, 2010s who were struggling with it then that it seems like Putin's Russia is the. The closest parallel to what Trump's America is trying to become and do this stuff that you're talking about, like, you know, this kind of sexually liberated, you know, queer friendly society or increasingly queer friendly society, and then just like this immediate switch flipped to try and force into totalitarianism, does that. Am I just doing that like Americans see themselves in everything, or does that seem like a reasonable thing to say?

Speaker B:

To be honest, I think it is quite a reasonable thing to say because America is also descending into fascism in quite a biblical sense. But there are definitely some differences, I think, because in America, or maybe this is just my perspective, but I truly believe in the good of American people and in their guns as well.

Speaker A:

So

Speaker B:

I think a brighter future is possible. It's just a matter of how you handle this power within you.

Speaker A:

That makes sense to me. One of the things that I think about a lot, I read history books for a living, and I read about all of these groups. And whenever there's a revolution or a resistance movement or whatever, step one is always where the fuck are we going to get small arms? Like, where the fuck are we going to get rifles? You know? And America, if it ever has to do anything like that, is skipping that step. We have the guns for both good and bad already here.

Speaker B:

Yes, exactly. All good starts with the spirit and a rifle.

Speaker A:

So. Okay. To kind of get the. Okay. The other question that I think a lot of people listening to this might have and that I would love your take on. You know, you're an anarchist, but you're in a state military. What is that like? What drove you to that decision? How do you feel about it?

Speaker B:

That's my favorite question, to be honest. I love this.

Speaker A:

I don't know if that's sarcasm or not.

Speaker B:

I don't think I know even. I think there is no contradiction here. I'm not fighting for the state. I'm fighting for things I believe in. And I truly do believe in them because I'm here because I'm ready to do whatever is necessary to do. And I have seen people do that. And my friends have died for the things that they also believe in, which are freedom, which are human rights, which are the fact that people don't want to be Russia. People don't want to die under occupation. And this also is very important. I don't want another Ukrainian family to be going through what people are going through in occupation and what I had to go through. So, yeah, yeah. So I don't think it is somehow bad to be in the state military because people that are here are of very different beliefs and as well, if we are to do something later, right. We cannot lose this political opportunity because the neo Nazis, when the war is won, right. When we are done with this, are going to come and ask, oh, sorry, what were you doing when I was fighting on the front line? And are we as anti fascists to answer? Oh, sorry, I was selling donors in Berlin.

Speaker A:

No fucking way.

Speaker B:

I'm sorry. Like if you call yourself an anarchist or an anti fascist and you do not participate in this act of civil resistance as defeating Russia is by definition, then I don't have anything to talk with you about. This is my true belief that actually, and this is quite a hard pill to swallow and bone to pick with others because they start talking about personal choice and about, I don't know, individualism. Sorry, I don't really understand that. I don't really think this is a way to move forward as a society, as a community, because some things needs to be done for a good of others. There is a necessary sacrifice to be made. And yeah, that's, that's my opinion.

Speaker A:

No, it's, it's, it's interesting to me because to me it seems so obvious that it, if someone invades and is like killing families and villages and you know, if you have an occupying fascistic force. Right. It seems so obvious that the anarchist choice is to fight that and to fight that in the, the most vigorous way that is available and the most effective way that is available. And it's like, it's confusing to me because I, when I think about individual choice with this, it mostly just seems like, okay, you could individually choose to be a coward, I guess, not do all of the stuff that we say we believe in, like solidarity and fighting fascism, you know, like. But I'm going to think a lot less of this is really easy for me to say. I'm literally in an armchair inside the United States, you know, I, but I, I know that for me, when the invasion first happened, I just did the thing that I try to do anytime something's happening. That's not where I live, which is I just look to see what the anarchists there do and believe because there's anarchists all over the world. In any given conflict, you find the anarchists and you say, all right, what are they up to? And it seems like from outside that most of the anarchists in Ukraine were like, yeah, we support taking up arms and trying to drive out this invading force.

Speaker B:

Yes, that's exactly what happened. And that is also a part of why I did this choice. When the full scale invasion started, I was, as a matter of fact, in Berlin and I was involved in resistance there. And as the days were starting to roll in, right, the first day, the second day, my friends started joining the territorial defense. So to protect the capital, right. Most of them were living in Kyiv at the time. I didn't know if they're going to survive until the end of the week. And then people, I mean, some people, I got some support, right. But others once with different kind of views had the nerve to say something like, oh, there is no need to resist, you're going to surrender soon. Like, just, it's not worth the hustle. And I was like, no, this is just not happening. Sorry. Yeah. So pretty quickly I realized that there's no good there and the only real thing that one can ever do is fight with a rifle in your hands. So that's what I did. I guess I took my time to prepare. I also had to figure out some bureaucracy in Germany and I, in half a year I came back and very soon joined 93rd Mechanized Infantry Brigade. And that's how my way as a drone operator started. Pretty quickly it got messy. It was winter of 2023 and it was the Battle of Bakhmut. And as for me at the time as well, for a very young person, it was quite a tragic. And it was my first deployment to see people that you yesterday had a coffee with Dai. But things like that, actually, the more you experience them, the more you teach yourself to be strong about it. That might sound absolutely ridiculous to some, but at my duty, right, I have to do my job. I cannot really cry. I cannot really show any emotion per se when I'm talking to the radio because people on the other side of the screen are also on duty. They are doing something that needs to be done. You have to finish a task. You have to continue doing your job. And this is an acquired skill. It doesn't really come to you instantly. And as well, at the time, I was lucky to have people that already had experience, that were prior fighters that joined the army before 2022, and they were there to teach me how to be with this and how to not get this. Kill you eventually.

Speaker A:

No, that makes sense to me. I again, I read a lot of history and I look at people and I'm just like, oh, other people have dealt with so much, you know, and I wonder how they do it. Like, is it. In my own life, there is a distinct before and after the time. I, like, I've only seen one person who was dead from gun violence. And there is a before and an after for that event for me, you know, it was a transformative, traumatic experience in my life. And. Yeah. Does it just get easier?

Speaker B:

I would say so. I don't know. I just for the context, maybe some listeners don't really understand what's up. So a drone operator has to see a lot of people that are dead, actively dying or going to die, or has been dead for a very long time. So there's quite some gore going on. And somehow it does get easier because you just get so desensitized by this that it is another. Another day, you know. But at the same time, some events you memorize more than the others. I don't know. Sometimes people are looking directly into the camera, like into the, I don't know, the eye of the storm. Well, some of them are actually our own troops trying to like, show that they're wounded or like you are showing the way for the troops or you're just assessing the sit situations of the command knows what's up. So it really depends. But some of those things I would rather forget, to be honest. Yeah, but that's fine. That's what the therapy is for, so that's okay.

Speaker A:

Well, that's what I was. That's actually. That was literally going to be. My next question is, like, what are some of the tools that you use? Like, do you use therapy?

Speaker B:

Yes. But what actually does help me is creating art. I write poetry. I have been writing poetry for my whole life. And I also wrote a small autobiographic novel. I'm trying to scoop it all together into some kind of an issue. It is very messy as publishing can be, but this is the only way to deal with such intense emotions to. Because especially last year of my service was very, very challenging and a lot of my friends died defending Ukraine. So in order for these feelings to not completely numb me to my core, I have to put them out there.

Speaker A:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B:

It's not actually a great choice maybe for hypersensitive person to have a position like this, but this is what we're working with. So. Yeah, I just write and I write and I write, and that helps.

Speaker A:

I mean. Okay. And then just to stay in this, like, sometimes darker topics are not always really dark to me because I take a lot of strength out of remembering that I'm going to die. And I take a lot of strength out of. Out of knowing that I only have a little bit of choice in the way that I die. Like, I have some agency in that, but I don't have complete agency of that. And so how do you deal with the level of danger that you're in? How do you deal with fear? And I'm asking this just both, you know, personally and out of curiosity, but also because I think that. I think that a lot of the stuff that you've learned might be really useful. I think that there's a lot of listeners who are not used to hearing from soldiers that they can identify with, like, socially, gender wise, politically, you know.

Speaker B:

Yeah, sure. So for myself, the answer is I honestly do not care that much. Like, for me, I am more worried for my brothers and sisters in arms, for example, when we're doing a mission together, that they would get injured and then it would be my responsibility to help them in a particular order to, like, make sure they gonna be fine, all this march protocol whatnot. Because it is also quite a big responsibility.

Speaker A:

No, that makes sense to me. That. That way of dealing with it. You are literally wearing a shirt with a skull and crossbones on it right now.

Speaker B:

Yeah, that's San Paoli. So.

Speaker A:

Yeah, okay, fair enough. That's a, that's a football team for. Right, that's the anti fascist football team from Hamburg. Okay. I am, I learned about them when I lived in the Netherlands. That was what everyone was excited about. Yeah, the anarchists of my generation tended to be like non sports people. And so the European anarchists would be like, what's wrong with you all? Why don't you follow football?

Speaker B:

Yeah, they are pretty hardcore actually in Ukraine that's also a thing. A lot of like army boys nowadays, AKA the old generation of anarchists are from the football hooligan saying like Kaifariki boys or some other people that are as well. Anarchists in the resistance committee are football. Football people.

Speaker A:

What is the like anarchist organizing within the ranks? What does that look like? Like how, how lefty is the military? Obviously you know, there's the famous more right wing components of it, but like. And how much is there any autonomous organizing? I know at the beginning of the war there was like a little bit more actively autonomous organizing before everything was kind of taken up by the larger Ukrainian military structure.

Speaker B:

Yes, that's correct. Now the only kind of quote unquote official non state military organizing are the volunteer groups that are doing their own thing, like Ukrainska Dubrovalsha Armia. Ukrainian Volunteer army is an organization that you don't have to be like a soldier to join, but you are a fighter. And on the other hand there is the official apparatus of the military forces that looks rigid, but in reality it is quite often pure chaos. And in the cracks of the chaos there is us. It's honestly just a bunch of different people that are trying to make their own smaller units, be that company, a platoon, a squad, any size element, to be more bearable, democratic and self organized. So for example, in my unit we had this thing where we would vote new people in, we would have particular rules and we would have plenums. Well, something very, very similar to plenums. Think German colleagues would familiar with this term. They really love that.

Speaker A:

So it's like some kind of council?

Speaker B:

Yeah, yeah, it's like a council and then everyone talks and you can't really interrupt them and then you like come to a conclusion of some sorts in a really, really long time. So that's

Speaker A:

democracy. Yep, yeah, exactly.

Speaker B:

I honestly it is quite a fun question to me in a way that every unit is different. If you would ask one of my friends that was serving in the unit where David Chichkan Was serving. Right. David Chan, being a Ukrainian artist, a painter and the mural painter. Yeah, well, he did a lot of different art. He.

Speaker A:

Yeah, the mural paint. I'm just thinking, if I'm thinking of

Speaker B:

the right person, he had very, very particular style. He is quite iconic, I would say. Yeah. So anyhow, if you'd ask that person, Right. They had different style of organizing because everyone has their own approach. But in the end, everyone is somehow connected in this net of contacts. Right. Even if they are in a different unit and different people help each other. And there's also grassroots organizations like solidarity collectives that are used in time of need are also used for networking and create this safety net for people. Because in the end, there are a lot of situations that you can end up in that are quite peculiar. Like when you are in a hospital after you get wounded, or you have a health issue, or you don't have anywhere to live because your house was taken by Russia and now you need to sort that out as well. And you have this service to take care of. So there's many, many ordinary life situations that you also have to sort out. When you are in the military, too, contrary to the popular belief, army doesn't really take care of you completely, as someone in a kindergarten does.

Speaker A:

That actually, that, I feel like, kind of explains a lot. I think that the American conception of the military is like the single most structured and hierarchical force that one could possibly be involved in. Right. And I wonder whether the reason that militaries, well, they believe in hierarchy, so that's a big part of it. But I wonder if part of the reason that they put forward that idea is because war is like the most chaotic place you could imagine where, like, people are acting of their own initiative constantly. And so it seems like the Ukrainian military is not. It doesn't look like, what if America was at war in Ukraine versus Russia? It would look very different, right?

Speaker B:

100%. I think America would also not have great success in this.

Speaker A:

I'm sorry, but you can talk shit on America.

Speaker B:

I mean, I have a lot of American friends. They're going to get upset, but I don't think they're going to listen to this podcast. The truth is actually that what reformed the Ukrainian army and made it an army of the next generation is people, people like me and my friends who were just led by this tireless motivation of protecting what is dear to them and came to join the ranks in 2022, and with their sole force of this belief in good and their own civilian experiences, completely changed the Pat of how things are made and brought so much intellectual, creative new concepts into this rigid Soviet old stinky system.

Speaker A:

No, that makes sense because one of the things, I mean, actually, you know, we're more than half an hour in and we haven't gotten to them. The main question I wanted to ask you about, but because it seems like the Ukraine Russian war is often looked at from the outside as the most modern war that is happening because it is like peer or near peer groups fighting. Obviously the Iran war looks completely different. The American Iran war looks completely different than the Russian Ukrainian war. But I wanted to have you on because I wanted to talk about and kind of hear about what modern war actually looks like. Because I think it's a different set of skills than people might. And one of the reasons I want to do that bluntly is that America has been kind of will we, won't we about falling apart entirely over the past couple of years. And right now it's leaning towards won't we? It's leaning towards the for better or worse, it's going to stumble forward and not entirely collapse, but we'll see. But you know, people are worried about civil war and people are wondering what the next war looks like. And it seems like what you all have going on with like not just drones, but automated resupply robots and fiber optic drones. But also everyone has to dig tunnels to avoid all of the drones. And that some of the war is fought with what a, like a gamepad,

Speaker B:

like a Steam deck sometimes.

Speaker A:

Oh, I said, I said a gamepad.

Speaker B:

Yeah. Xbox joystick. It depends.

Speaker A:

Yeah, okay, yeah, that is your primary weapon of war is an Xbox joystick.

Speaker B:

It depends on kind of system you're operating.

Speaker A:

Okay, but, but so what does that like look like? What is the difference between that and a war 10 years ago? What do we have to look forward to?

Speaker B:

I think it's important to highlight that if something of this scale happens in America, it also might look different and the Civil war would not have the same features as full scale war in Ukraine. But I think what needs to be every civilian's toolkit, if we are talking about skills, is the following. First of all, everyone needs to know how to do medical stuff. I'm not a medic, but I'm a soldier and I know how to do march. I, for example, would not converse a tourniquet because that's a medic's job. But something basic like cls. March is a medical protocol that is used to treat a casualty on the front line. So it is not Implemented in the red zone. But okay, let's say not directly on the battlefield, but somewhere in the safety. You assess the casualty, you check the massive hemorrhages, you check the airways, all this stuff. So it's like a protocol that is used to make someone stop dying, I guess.

Speaker A:

So you all are stuck using the English acronym for this.

Speaker B:

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's very. Okay, yeah.

Speaker A:

Massive hemorrhaging airways.

Speaker B:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A:

I actually, I've learned this before, but I can't remember the rest of it.

Speaker B:

Yeah, well, I guess every American needs to do that now if they want to prepare for war or whatnot. That doesn't sound very good when you say it, but prepare for. For a critical situation. Let's call it this way. Right. It's easier to stomach. So it's also a good skill to be in a good physical shape. I know it's not the case for a lot of people and I might get bad karma for saying this. I know that not everyone can be very fit, but at the same time, you can take care of some chronic illnesses that you have to not, you know, have them in a very critical state. Like have a full pill pack of your, I don't know, Zoloft that you're taking. Okay. There's not going to be a pharmacy for a little bit as it was not for the first couple of weeks during the full scale invasion. Right. So this is something to think about. One has to be thoughtful about that as well. It's good to have a bug out bag, but this is also optional. It depends on how things are gonna be a lot of. Yeah, it depends on relief, on the terrain, where you're in and on a lot of factors. Right. If you have children. If you don't have children. I don't know. I don't have children, so I don't have to worry about that. I have two cats. But yeah, as well, I. From the top of my head, I think also a very good skill is to dig, to learn how to make a proper kind of little foxhole for yourself. But this is when you think about it, like now I'm saying to a civilian person, go to your backyard in the United States of America and dig a foxhole. That sounds quite ridiculous, but this is real. Like, I don't know. I think also when you're like planning a house, let's say you're building a house in America, that's not really realistic, is it? But it's also good to include a basement because basement is essential when you are Hiding from bombs.

Speaker A:

Okay. So it's like not even. You don't have to necessarily build a whole bunker, but just actually making sure you have a basement to get.

Speaker B:

Oh yeah, 100% in the basement. You can survive virtually anything in. Well there. There are some experiences attuned to that. And as well as it doesn't have to be super like fallout vibe, you know, it just can be a cover and it would lesser your chances of dying from an aerial bomb threefold. Yeah, yeah. So that. That is something that one has to keep in mind when prepar or something like this. Also it is important to keep things real. Like if you gonna go into a full blown psychosis about this war situation, that's not gonna help anyone. So. Yeah, I also have quite strong opinions on this whole mesh radio situation. Ew. EW is expensive. I mean if you really are a nerd, you can get this mesh radio thing.

Speaker A:

But I don't know about the w. I know about the mesh radio thing.

Speaker B:

So. EW is electronic warfare. It is kind of a system to ward off drones. It is very expensive technology and it's also marked up to be very expensive. And I think it also illegal in America.

Speaker A:

Yeah, you're not supposed to mess with aircraft in America. You can't. You're not allowed to. Like if you own property and you buy a drone and you put the drone in the air and you have a legal gun, you can't shoot the drone that's in the air. On your.

Speaker B:

Come to Ukraine. Come to Ukraine. You can do anything here. Come to Ukraine. I can teach you how to fly drones.

Speaker A:

Freedom.

Speaker B:

I say again, I can teach you how to fly drones. Yeah, that's that. It's incredible fun actually. Everyone should try that. Oh, I'm sure after this in particular allowed to the United States. Oh no. Yeah. I mean when you are flying them just for fun, like you can get a tiny whoop that's really, really small. It fits in the palm of your hand and to fly around like chase the cat, that's really fun.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

I mean when it is chasing you, it's not very fun. That's for sure. And. But to be a pilot is more fun. Is. I always say it's always better to be on the giving side of the fiber optic. So.

Speaker A:

Yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker B:

Yeah. So.

Speaker A:

And for people, the fiber optic thing. Could you. Could you explain the fiber optic thing? Because I only learned about this kind of recently through like YouTube and stuff. But I follow different youtubes than probably most of our audience.

Speaker B:

So to be very Very simple about it. Right. A fiber optic cable is the same cable that provides fiber optic Internet. It is just very, very thin. And the signal is going through this cable. Right. The controls of the drone are being transmitted through this very, very thin. It's like a spider web almost cable. And the spool of the drone can be 25, 30 kilometers, which if you think about it, is a lot. And as the. This fabric, this little thread is so, so thin, the spool itself doesn't weight too much. So the fiber optic drone is carrying both the charge. Right. So a PG7 and a PG7 is a kind of bomb.

Speaker A:

Okay.

Speaker B:

And a spool. Right. And yeah, that's basically what is it. It's a standard fpv, but it is resistant to the electronic warfare. This is also very important here because. So the normal FPV is controlled by radio signal. It is not physically attached, right. As the fiber optic one to the station. Right. To where the pilot is, let's say. But because it is signal, it can be jammed by the ew. But the fiber optic, as it cannot be jammed, possesses such an immense threat for armor, for personnel, for positions, for anything that is trying to move on the battlefield. And therefore that creates a very particular kill zone that is from 30 to 60 kilometers of the front line. Right.

Speaker A:

Okay.

Speaker B:

And that is why anything that moves in this kill zone is under quite a threat because of this technology.

Speaker A:

And so what do people do to counter that? I know there's. I know with drones in general, people are setting up like nets over the roadways. Can you just like go into the forest and it's too tangly for fiber optics or, you know, what are people doing about it?

Speaker B:

No, no, it's just gonna try to kill you until you're dead, if that makes sense. But no, the way to counteract the fiber optic drones is to shoot them, to physically shoot them with your rifle or with a shotgun. So shooting shotgun is notoriously fun, but now it takes a new turn because you have to shoot flying creature that is there to. To kill you. Yeah.

Speaker A:

Can you use bird shot or do you have to use buckshot? Like what kind of a bird shot?

Speaker B:

You use bird shot. But there are also specialized ammo for drones that is produced in Ukraine so that like this little pieces inside are entangled between each other. So it's like, creates.

Speaker A:

Oh, a little, like web.

Speaker B:

A little web, yes. There are also net guns that are kind of hand pistols, but it's not shooting 9 millimeter, but a net, which are also effective, but close range and you still can be affected by the shrapnel from the warhead if it's anti personnel.

Speaker A:

Okay, what about tunnels?

Speaker B:

We should dig tunnels as well as Russians do.

Speaker A:

Oh, are they the. Are they the masters of the tunnels? Are you all winning on drones and they're winning on tunnels or.

Speaker B:

No, no, they. Actually, I was thinking about this question before and I was like, that's what I'm gonna tell. Do you know about the pipe? There is this notorious Russian warfare thing where they find the old underground communications and send the infantry there into the meat grinder on little kind of pulleys or little small vehicles. Right. That can fit into the tunnel and they just go for tens of kilometers in this dark, moist, horrified pipes.

Speaker A:

Wow.

Speaker B:

And then when you come out and there are Ukrainians waiting for you. What a surprise. Yeah. So it's not only tunnels, but I mean, I guess that also qualifies as a tunnel, right?

Speaker A:

Pre existing tunnels.

Speaker B:

Yeah. Yeah. No, I would say that the trenches, the trenches are kind of this way of surviving. If you are in a trench, if you are in a position in a fortified position that was built there before you, then you have a better chance at surviving. But as well, it is quite hellish because Russian use a lot of fiber optic and heavier drones, heavy lifting drones, when they figure out that Ukrainian personnel is there and they just destroy the position. And the. So the blind dash is kind of a fortified position. Right. And the roof of the blind dash is usually fortified with really thick pine tree trunks. Right.

Speaker A:

Okay.

Speaker B:

So if it was a pre existing position and the force of the explosions is so immense that it over time it breaks through this kind of layers and layers of wood and cement and whatnot. And that possesses a big threat because regardless if you're underground, if you are seen going into that position, you are still not safe.

Speaker A:

Right. And they're watching with like thermal.

Speaker B:

I assume that as well also a way to. In winter, for example. This is a kind of an insight into a drone operating craft in winter when you are using the thermal camera. A skilled operator that knows the terrain well can determine via the thermal imprints on the screen. Right. Via the thermal image which position is occupied or not. Because if people are there, they're still. The position gets warmer, even if they're not using anything to warm themselves up with. Right. Like a trench candle or something like this. So this is also. It works both ways, unfortunately.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

So yeah, it's a very honorable craft to be an infantryman, infantry personnel. And it is very, very hard. And my heart goes to all the Ukrainian infantry out there. Thank you.

Speaker A:

Yeah. What is it like living in war? This is obviously a big question, but when you cycle off of the front, I'm making this up. I'm guessing that you cycle off the front line and then you're out on the front line and then you're spending time in cities that are like affected, but less affected. And then, you know, like how, how disrupted is everyday life? What does everyday life look like?

Speaker B:

I don't think the listeners are going to believe me, but this is Ukrainian reality. I would make an example. The city of Zaporizhzhia. It's the south of Ukraine nowadays. It's beautiful, it's sunny. So Russians are less than 50 km from the city itself. The front line is there in the city. You can get a beautiful espresso tonic for less than $2. And you sit there on the terrace on your day off, you drink this protonic and life is beautiful. The next day it might be something different, but on this particular day you'll be vibing. And I don't think such a contrast could be happening anywhere in the world, especially in Europe, because people are just resilient, you know. And of course there is the darkness there. There is a funeral procession every day. There is. Well, the job that you do, it doesn't really let you have time off you at any moment. There is. Your phone is chiming all the time because there is like updates and stuff. Even when you have of rotation. Right. And you have a free moment usually when you're not on combat duty, you prepare for your next rotation. You work on the drones, you adjust the settings. You do manual labor with screwing things together and gluing them and whatnot. We have to keep in mind here that most of the things are single use and very cheap. So you have to like make them perfect to fly just once. They have to work only once.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

So yeah, it's a lot of prep actually goes into this. It's not one button and that's all tedious.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

So yeah, it's, it's a contrast, but it is very, very precious to me.

Speaker A:

Yeah, well, how can people support you? It seems like one of the things I follow you on Instagram and one of the things that you post about is, I don't remember if it's solidarity collectives or different groups that fundraise to get materials to anti authoritarian fighters in Ukraine. And it seems like one of the things that's happening in the same way that the state is not necessarily that the Ukrainian Military is a little bit more chaotic than people might expect. So it seems like a lot of units are also fundraising for their own equipment. How does all that work and. Or how can people support you and other anti authoritarians?

Speaker B:

Thank you, that's an excellent question. And over the years, me and my team has been supported greatly by anti authoritarian initiatives. And I'm very thankful for that. Usually at this moment, what we are and me on my Instagram, what I fundraise for is the essentials, like stuff that you need for this manual work that I have described. There is a lot of engineering things like for soldering or basic things that you need a lot like zip ties. There is, I don't know, 10 zip ties per one because you have to adjust everything, but without would not be working. And if you yourself would buy the zip ties out of your own pocket, it would be $800 per month. So this is.

Speaker A:

Zip ties are like the cheapest thing I can think of. If I were to think of an object that's cheap, I literally think of a zip tie.

Speaker B:

No, but this is thousands and thousands.

Speaker A:

Yeah, no, no, I believe you. That's what's so crazy about it.

Speaker B:

Yeah. And you know, this, this is something that people don't realize about this. All this is non American tech. Like it needs some enhancements in order to. To be working. But in the end of the day, this is what we are winning with. This is what makes Ukraine stand for such a long time, is the talent of people to make things work. Right.

Speaker A:

Yeah.

Speaker B:

So yes, from time to time I fundraise stuff. I also have a PayPal that we use for such needs. Also, the main thing is obviously not the zip ties, but car repairs, because cars break a lot, especially when people

Speaker A:

are shooting at them.

Speaker B:

Oh, yeah. Well, we don't really do infills on pickup trucks anymore.

Speaker A:

Oh, okay.

Speaker B:

Yeah, the front line has changed a lot. That's very. Not usual anymore. This needs to be a very, very good pickup truck. So it's mainly for logistics. Like, I mean, you have to transport yourself around and the drones as well. Yeah. So the cars are shitty and they break. That's also a thing.

Speaker A:

So would you add car repair to your list of. You talked about some skills that people could learn.

Speaker B:

Oh yeah, 100. Unfortunately, I do not possess such a skill, but if someone's willing to teach me, my dams are open.

Speaker A:

Cool. Okay, well, where are your DMs? Like, how can people follow your work and get more information about what's going on and how to help?

Speaker B:

So my publicly available Instagram account is polycycho and you can find me there. I post pictures and essays and my blog is a mess of all things scare and beautiful.

Speaker A:

Awesome. Well, yeah, thank you so much for taking time out of war to talk to Americans about a possible but probably not likely war. It's appreciated. Thank you.

Speaker B:

Of course, it's my pleasure. I am very happy to be here and I Love your work, Ms. Margaret. It and I hope Americans will find the power within.

Speaker A:

Yeah, that does seem like one of the ways the world would the entire world would do a lot better if Americans were able to accomplish some certain things here. All right, well, thank you all so much for listening. And if you want to support what's going on over there, you can follow Polly Psycho Underscore on Instagram. And if you want to support us, this podcast is published by Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. We're an anarchist collective publisher and we're primarily supported on patreon, which is patreon.com strangers in a tangled Wilderness. If you follow us there, we'll send you a zine anywhere in the world. Well, anywhere that the post office will take a zine, which is probably fewer places than it used to, but I haven't heard any complaints yet. But I don't know. And if you follow us at $20 a month, I will read your or whoever's the host will read your name or whatever it is strange collection of syllables you want us to read. Like for example, I want to thank the first two chapters of the Eden Project by James Hollis. And I want to thank the Truth that we will outlive them and the Pocono Pink Pistols and the Kiwuna Socialists and the Astoria Food Pantry the Athens People's assembly of Athens, GA opticuna TSNB baby Acab and her three great pups Sarah Mr. Crafty your Canadian friend Mark Tiny Nonsense The Golden Gate 26 the Ko Initiative the incredible Renai Alexander Gopal A Future for Abby, Hyunhi Max the Enchanted Rats of Turtle Island Lancaster chooses Love Karen the Canadian Socialist Rifle association the Massachusetts chapter of the Socialist Rifle Association Farrell in West Virginia Blink Cat Sholva, Jason, Jenny and Phoebe the Cats Aiden and Yuki the Dog Sunshine Amber Ephemeral Appalachian Liberation Library Portland's Hedron Hackerspace Boldfield xcenered X Julia Carson, Lord Harken Community Books of Stone Mountain, Georgia Princess Miranda, Janice Nodell Ally Paparuna, Milica, Theo sj, Paige, David, Dana, Micah Kirk, Chris, Micaiah, Nicole and Tivka the Dog Hoss the Dog and I also want to thank the people who supported one of our most recent Kickstarters. And those people include Simon Weil, Staying Hydrated, brought to you by Hannah Potatoes, Tenebris Press, arguing about what to shout Out, Experimental Farm Network Accordions, Dolly Parton and Edgar Meowlin Poe, the Cats, the Black Trowel Collective, Groot the Dog, the KO Initiative. Again, thank you, KO Initiative. Nico the Waterfront Project, Tivka's favorite stick, Uliksean Alder Na, which I hope means na beer, because I really like na beer. Be kind and talk to strangers. And Cool Zone Media, which I suspect was not actually Cool Zone Media. I suspect that someone put that in there as a joke. But maybe my other job supports this job and that would be nice. All right, thank you all so much and take care of each other and fuck ice and I don't know Russia well, the Russian government and yeah, bye everyone.