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Cats and dogs get food by humans and have been bred by humans for humans: just look at how disfigured many dogs are with hardly any mouth: their nose/mouth been bred out for a look foavoured by humans who will pay plenty of dollars for such property. Dogs and cats are human property after all. we can get rid of them whenever we wish and many do end up dead or in kill shelters. Look at a wild wolf and a dog: a dog is pathetic by comparison.

I feared that mushrooms etc may come back as some form of argument: the circle of life thing. As I said, read and/or listen Layla AbdelRahim as it saves me time having to go through it. By no means, do I agree with all Layla claims: she has nothing to say about fire which is strange.

You see, Netle, what you and Chisel want is a future/ a world where humans are basically still in charge/ in control and so, there is no way such a wonderful world Chisel cries over will ever be. Arguably Chisel has reified her vision of a world through the words of Kimmerer: Chisel is crying over a spectacle...maybe a phantasm (it is Halloween after all)?

Nettle, I don't imagine you want to be sleeping with one eye for fear of a predator wanting to cart you off? Yes, you want to remain in control just like the man-apes Moon-Watcher in 2001 A space odyssey. Once, the control is felt and the contentment that brings, there's no stopping us humans it would appear. No more hunger (for some of us) and down the years we'll have 'Friends' (the sit-com). Great!

This is weird: Two people: Nettle and Chisel: both friends of Aragorn! and yet, here they both are presenting a positive outlook..deluded but positive.

Nettle and Chisel please elaborate on this world where humans and non-humans actually share space without humans changing the 'contract' at our choosing? It's never happened. If it has, please inform me.

I think it is fascinating how most humans will not accept fire as a game changer: perhaps, it is because it was and still is a game changer.

Fire and surplus are two 'tools' in the toolbox we won't give up and so there appears to be a cost to that. Look at all the lights and imagine them to be fires for that is what they are basically.

Looking to indigenous life-ways is not going to help much as it is a life based on domination all be it, a Greener way domination (cue Greta Thunberg). I mean, when rifles and domesticated horses came their (indigenous) way, they took both up quick smart. Just like the Yanonmami who took up the machete. Why? because it made their life easier and it gave them greater control.

I'm about to get kicked out of my local library so I'll have to it here. Good discussion though. Thanks to you both.

"Imagine there's no Heaven, it's easy if you try"