Is “Anarchy” Inherent to Anarchism?

anarchism is like an asymptote

from Center for a Stateless Society

by Bent Delbeke

The political vocabulary of the average modern western “civilian” is quite limited. There are lexical gaps everywhere, and certainly when talking about meta-political concepts. And with anarchism, this is even greater, as it is a unique paradigm, and a shift towards a new way of conceiving human nature. Anarchism, for a lot of people who are not affiliated with it or don’t bother reading political theory, can be quite hard to talk about in a sufficiently nuanced manner. For example: here we will discuss the difference between anarchy and anarchism, which is bigger than you might think.

Of course, the first difference is that anarchy is a system, and anarchism is an ideology. Analogous to how monarchy is a system, while monarchism is the ideology that advocates a monarchy. Now, that is only a surface-level difference. For example, this fact does not mean that anarchism can simply be described as: “The ideology which advocates for anarchy,” as is the case with monarchism. That would be a misleading statement.

The second difference shows us something about praxis. An anarchic society (whichever form it takes) is an ideal society, but should we always operate on its basis? No! Anarchism is not about getting stuck in ideal systems and idealist utopias, rather it thinks about real issues right here, right now. And so we must sometimes step out of our ideological wishes to propose different solutions, and sometimes work within the state to diminish greater evils. It is not because we can’t erase the state at once, that we can’t work towards a better state in the meantime. A state which does not interfere with people’s lives as much as now, a state which brings about more economic equality, etc. And so we must sometimes work together with other leftists, but also sometimes work together with capitalist libertarians, while never changing our deeply held beliefs. We must not refuse to criticize the state, for its wrong actions or its lack of philosophical legitimacy. And so we can use aspects of and the contradictions within the state as an instrument for anarchism, while also denouncing it at the same time. However, we still must fight true dictatorship and authoritarian methods with great vigour, as they are never permitted, even if some think it could further our cause. We always must have a balance between our want for statelessness, and our want to better the conditions of the people. In conclusion: we must not enlarge the power of the state, never, but, neither must we vanquish it at once.

Anarchism is like an asymptote, we always want to get closer to anarchy, but we don’t know if we will ever truly get there. Even though one might think anarchy is impossible, however, one shouldn’t necessarily exclude it from all possibilities, but it certainly will take a monumental change in the consciousness of the people through a slow libertarian evolution. Is this gradual and realistic approach any less anarchist? No, because anarchism is not about directly and immediately “installing anarchy,” it’s about getting closer and closer to the ideal of anarchy, and a wish to get to that point (let us not be mistaken, it is still a goal). But, we must also see the challenges of our times, and how the modern human in 2021 goes about their ways, and we must conclude that, even if we just end up in a more libertarian system along the way, we will still be better off than today.

And so we must adopt philosophical anarchism as a way of balancing our ideals and the struggle in which we’re currently engaged. Revolution won’t get us anywhere, we must use counter-economics and dual systems (so, practical means of organisation) to begin an evolution towards anarchy. No revolution, evolution! We must build our own factories, run by our own cooperative workers’ collectives, establish our own mutual credit banks, make sure the workers have houses, are nourished, and have clothing. We will build a second society within the current capitalist one. And if it is better for the workers, those workers are happy and live in better conditions, etc. Then, more workers will switch to our side. We should then institute parties that defend these institutions in parliament, and we will break open the state from the inside. Every second of every day we will tend to anarchy, and work to get closer and closer. 

Anarchism is a journey, a process implemented. Although we are going into unknown territory, the general direction is clear: go forth, toward anarchy, with realism!

There are 125 Comments

what the hell has this content been lately and who is writing these things...

I don't usually read through these CSI writings but this satire was quite funny.

There is no anarchy other than the primal. You may switch around, but your faithful theories are just civilized bullshit, in order to keep the same machine running.

This is always already a parody of itself.
Like, bro, don't get rid of the State, man, we can do it better, gentler & kinder, and then the workers will love us, and maybe then we can have ⅛ of an anarchy, as a treat.



I get a smile from the outrage at articles like this. All the tiny Zorro personalities jabbing with micro gay blades in rebellion to purism. Scoffing at suggestions of not totally implementing an idealistic, utopian, stateless society overnight and suggesting anything else is unanarchic. Not ironically, if all states ceased tomorrow, they'd be among the first to perish. A keyboard is only a weapon within a functioning state.

imagine being like this butthurt anon thinking mockery in the comment section is considered a weapon by the commenters. people shoot the shit by taking the piss out what's posted. it goes both ways: you can't form stateless society gradually via liberalism anymore than you can do it overnight via smashy.

Imagine living in denial that one's behavior isn't a form of violence while couching it in violent lingua by trying to "shoot the shit" and "take this piss out". You do think your words are weapons. And that's okay. Just be honest about it. We'll all respect you more.

Smashy justifies the states security apparatus and rationalizes their control.
Taking over the functions of the state individually or collectively reveals their irrelevance and makes them obsolete. True anarchy that allows people to do what they want without need of rulers in a way that doesn't do violence to others will result in a stateless society over time.

If this said simply something like "the state performs functions that are necessary to urban life and so we might want to figure that shit out before we just dump it in the bin" I wouldn't be making fun of it, because of course. I love my water treatment facilities, for example.
But this is saying anarchists should become the state in order to do it better, and that is just wacky.
Not to mention, I don't believe anarchy is utopian.

pffft, "i love my water treatment facilities"! your majesty prefers not to have parasites? well lah dee dah!

Leave Bong Joon-ho out of it!

I'm on board with anarchists replacing state/capitalist functions and doing it better, more justly in non-oppressive ways. Why not? I started a private school where parents across my state can take their children out of state run schools and educate them how they want at home. It's free with a donation option. Revolutionize industry so the greed-mongering capitaists and state run institutions wither on the vine.
Otherwise it seems like isolated voices crying in the wilderness to little effect.
Also, seems like anarchist "groups" have no problem supporting trade union organizations. Why is it okay to organize for workers rights (mostly increased wages) to drive up cost of production which in turn is passed on in the form of higher consumer prices? Increasing debt and system dependency. UAW for example have made vehicles more expensive for consumers.
That's all fair and good, but an anarchist who made a simple, affordable vehicle is condemned because "capitalism is evil".
No there's no perfect solution, but moving toward less state control and more privitization or collectivization is good, no?

I'm thinking of patenting my 18 wheeler bicycle with 6 riders for doing interstate freight deliveries of my organically grown popcorn.

will be coopted by the system. there were tons of alternatives that were started in the 60s (for example) and all of them have been ripped off and/or incorporated into regular capitalist practice, whether in rhetoric, practice, or both. (free clinics, for one concrete example.)
anything that cannot be coopted will be destroyed, either through bureaucratic action or violence or both.

as for anarchists who support unions, they haven't read their fredy perlman, or have a different view of what an anarchist society would look like, or both. there's huge range under the anarchist label, much of it mutually exclusive.

some anarchist reject the framing of marxism-in-capitalism ("increase the power of the workers within the framework that equates money with power"). some don't. which are you?

I agree with your first two paragraphs.
I'm for, as a necessary step, abolishing legal rights for corporations because a corp is not a person. I support the idea of equality of pay for labor so a ceo doesn't take the majority of profit but it gets split equally among employees. I'm for limits on the amount of income one person can receive.
Millionaires and billionaires are immoral because they can buy influence and wield power unjustly.
While I don't think money should equate to power, it regretably does in the current iteration of the world. So I would support anything that diminishes money's power. If that answers your question.

"power unjustly"

Believes there can be such a thing as JUST power over the masses. Wow.

You're literally more liberal than Joe Biden.

Not good at reading comprehension are you. There is power. You have power over your own decisions. You decide what you do and can weild that power over yourself and to the denial of others. You have power over a third party that might try to exploit you and you exercise it to deny them of that ability (hopefully through none violent means, but it's your power to use in a just manner.)

There is also un unjust use of power through any force or coercion.

Sad you didn't know this and/or acted ignorant to try to what?? Score a debate point for yourself? I don't know, seems counter-productive to any discussion as a whole.

."You have power over a third party that might try to exploit you and you exercise it to deny them of that ability (hopefully through none violent means, but it's your power to use in a just manner.)"

Statist logic there. Of preventing abuse or "crimes" through control measures.

Also, are ruse, grooming and restriction to knowledge NOT unjust power, too? And how about horizontal peer influence (i.e. conformity)? Is your understanding of power so first-level as to only be seeing the coercion part? Doesn't look like a very powerful position agaisnt abusers and other despots.

Now plz go back to Reddit, Dr. Chumpsky. Have a good one!

"Is your understanding of power so first-level as to only be seeing the coercion part?"
Your's apparently is. Why did you limit the word "exploit" to only mean "preventing abuse or "crimes" through control measures" when nothing I wrote imposed such a limitation.
No, you're not any better at constructing stawmen than any other dullard.
Exploitation by a third includes "ruse, grooming and restriction to knowledge" and "horizontal peer influence". etc., etc.

Please clarify this, "Doesn't look like a very powerful position agaisnt abusers and other despots." Are you saying that "power over a third party that might try to exploit you and you exercise it to deny them of that ability" is statist and therefore not 'anarchist' whilst also being not "a very powerful position agaisnt abusers and other despots." which should be butressed in order to be more in line with anarchy. Your stance comes across muddled and confusing. Thanks.

The method is so ingenious that I think few on here have enough mental acuity to grasp the simplicity and power. It's anarchy, so I practically do nothing, yet the school exists and functions as a bastion of freedom for parents. They have escaped the oversight and intereference of the government in their lives regarding their children's schooling or lack thereof. My part is so minimal, that I have no day to day interaction with the families. We touch base 3 times a year just to make sure we still want to voluntarily associate.

You're stuck in your own narrow mind-set of what a 'school' is or can be. Self imposed limitations are the most insidious. You've caged yourself and may never break free because you don't know and can't see how dumb and blind you are.

And I've challenged any who read this calling themself an anarchist to find some way to promote anarchy IRL that lessens governmental control in their life and in the life of the friends of anarchy around them big or small. Time to pick up the gauntlet and stop pea shooting at others who embarrass you due to your lack of effort or abilty.

like yours: "i challenge you to do something that fits my criteria of what-will-change-the-world better than my project does.
i ignore any challenge to my preconceptions as specious do-nothingism. and i know in advance you will lose, because you are all lamer by far than i..."

presumably, i twill see a hundred more. there are many of you out there.

True. Torch has been very egotist with their bragging about an anarchistic school project no one but themselves have even heard about, yet still purportedly manages to attract THOUSANDS of families. Like is it so clandestine that you can't talk about it online? I'm more leaning in the direction that Torch is just a troll who's bullshitting with grandiose imaginary shit.

new anew tshirt please:
you are all lamer by far

of what-will-change-the-world better than my project does"

More straw-infant arguments.

Do anything anarchistic? Not better than me/others! Just do something.

NO! Criticizing an article or anarchists is NOT doing anything toward anarchy. Whining is not anarchistic either.
Live in anarchy or stfu about anarchistic efforts/actions of others. Your statist efforts to dimish/ridicule/excuse an anarchist living in ways that decrease statist control is transparent/obvious. The troll always smells his own hole.

the folks who think that saying the last commetn means they've won some contest...

A small private alternative school on donations doesn't stand for a "replacement" of State infrastructure and institutions. If there's anywhere NA anarchists should grow a brain, it's maybe in this gullible naiveté.

State infrastructure operates by logic of mass-management, and also mass-control. This is where anarchists can't compete, and neither are MEANT to compete, as you don't wanna have some stupid "anarchist state" managing the masses. That'd just be another iteration of the Soviet system; i.e. a country-wide system pretending to be run by the Workers for the Workers.

Such ancom shit is dumb to the max, and I was quick at abandoning this pipedream like back in 2007... so why are there still ancoms today believing they can have a better Anarchist State? Perhaps some people just will never get any smarter/self-aware/critically-thinking and cling to their belief in Santa.

Being so much smarter/self-aware/critically-thinking could you please enlighten us with your work toward and solution to your grand plan of implementing a stateless society?

"A small private alternative school on donations doesn't stand for a "replacement" of State infrastructure and institutions." Tell that to the thousand of families who have opted in. I'm sure your opinion on the matter is much more relevant than their reality.

"your grand plan of implementing a stateless society" No it's all yours. I ain't got no plans for society as society is the problem in the first place. Keep these small-scale projects like that private school, tho, which looks like a worthy anarchistic project as far as it ain't Facebook-based and yuppie-friendly.

THOUSANDS of families have opted in your school? Where is that? Or is this you pipedreaming about a future anarchist society again?

You're grand plan for realizing anarchy? You're grand plan for statelessness? Stop dodging. What have you done, if anything to make your sphere of influence less state controlled. FYI, posting comments doesn't count.

What have you done, if anything to make your sphere of influence less state controlled?

Answer: Nothing

Thanks. I thought so.

can both agree with those two paragraphs, and disagree with the other things people are saying here. if all projects that involve lots of people will be coopted/destroyed/both by the state, then how is your school (or any other project that is successful in the way you seem to be defining it) actually challenging anything long term?
put another way, how is your school going to avoid becoming a liberal reform, much as (arguably) the montessori system is?

By remaining outside the system in as much as it can. Because it isn't monetized and therefore offers no incentive for being coopted. I doubt an organization or institution will offer a school that is ad free, tuition free, and doesn't make income - let alone profit.

The service in no way controls the parents or students. It covers them under a legal entity (one could go off grid and avoid registering in any way, shape or form with a school, but that opens up liability to law enforcement, child services, etc.) so they are free of state control over their children's education (i.e. curriculum/ beliefs/ time/ place/ manner, etc.)

As more parents choose this method and are successful - word spreads and the movement grows. Each family is living in a form of anarchy whether conscious of it or not. Every child that experiences this lifestyle knows the nanny state isn't the best option (let alone a viable one) for education and have a different worldview they live out in the larger world around them.

A pebble thrown in a pond causes water to ripple out in wider circles in reaction.

Perfect? No.
Better than nothing? Obviously.

At least I'm doing something to affect change. The same can't be said for everybody on here. Sigh

I'm sure you will yell at me for demanding perfection or purity but i do think it is important to note that really what is happening in this system is that the autority/power of the teacher is then just being imbued in the parent (who already holds an instutional role as parent over the child).

What do you mean? I think they should not be bound by instutions just like adults should not.

And the parent, each to their own ability, dispenses autonomy to the child in measures as their responsibility increases. You don't give a 3 yr old an Uzi and let them run free. (Bad analogy, but deal with it). A responsible parent guides and protects their children until they demonstrate or grow old enough to demand the responsibility that comes with freedom. So, I'm totally okay with the parent being an authority over their own child instead of a state controlled nanny. Aren't you?


What do you mean by sphere of influence? For tge most part people have very little influence over their own lives. Yes sure I agree having more influence over own lives is important, this is something I am focused on, but it is in relation to my own life, not influencing anyone else.

If you are set on influencing others, I have no interest in your project. I want to be free from control, from influence, not just change whos influencing me.

Under my school I don't tell you what to teach, when to teach, care if you even have lessons, or intrude in your life in any way. I simply provide a free service for you to get the state off your back regarding your families education or lack thereof.

Is anarchy or acting in some form of anarchism just a lone wolf, individual exercise? If there was a way, through some minimal effort on your part, to facilitate anarchism in someone else's life through voluntary cooperation, would you do it? (assuming no coercion, no exercise of influence other than provision to participate, and no violence to their body or life).

We interact with others while going about our lives. If I find a good thing I'm going to tell others and share with them.
If I discover a concrete way to decrease state control I'm going to tell others and share the advantage with them. As far as my school idea. Every family could incorporate, each one could register to start their own school, and pay all the fees and do all the paper work. Or they could just sign up under me and all that is taken care of. They are invisible to the state. None of their personal information is surrendered to the state. It's pure anarchy, just about.

"It's pure anarchy"

My point primarily is that I don't think what you are describing is actually desirable to me at all, as someone who was a child not too long ago it is school that's the problem not state run schools specifically.

"If there was a way, through some minimal effort on your part, to facilitate anarchism in someone else's life through voluntary association"

And the reason for my first point is that what you are describing isn't voluntary, it's children being forced to be educated, just by parents instead of teachers. But yes I actually think right now is a good example, I hope that I can offer you some advice on this topic, mainly in offering you a resource, the journal "No! Against Adukt Supremacy" which you can choose to read or ignore. And perhaps that will have some affect on you and your anarchism, or perhaps it won't, but ultimately it needs to be up to you.

What about empowering you as a parent to raise your child any way you want with the state public education system. child protective services and law enforcement off your back is disinteresting to you.
No one dictating to you what you teach or don't. No one telling you that you even have to teach your child anything. What about this is unattractive to you as an anarchist? I mean really. You've hung yourself on a stupid interpretation of an idea that you can't implement and dismiss someone who figured out a way for you to live in more anarchism that you fantasize about.

You're contrarian for contrarians sake.

"What about empowering you as a parent to raise your child any way you want with the state public education system. child protective services and law enforcement off your back is disinteresting to you."

The empowering parents part, parents/the family are part of the problem of instutions not the solution. You are trying to appeal to parents and I resonate with the child.

"dismiss someone who figured out a way for you to live in more anarchism that you fantasize about."

Again I want nothing to do with your project since I would not be free in it, only parents would be.

"Under my school I don't tell you what to teach..."

UNDER MY SCHOOL - i.e., i am a benevolent authority

Administrator, not authority. But whatever lets you remain in apathy while others are doing the work.

"when we vindicate the freedom of the masses, we are by no means suggesting the abolition of any of the natural influences that individuals or groups of individuals exert on them; what we want is the abolition of influences which are artificial, privileged, legal, official." Bakunin.

To want to be free from solidarity is to wish for death.

ROFLMAO this troll right here! Admnistrations are THE fucking authority. It's the bosses, the cadre and the managerial caste, you moron.

You're supposed definition is false and denied. I have no authority over parents or students. We voluntarily associate in solidarity. The authority of the state in education/learning is rejected by the families and they live in anarchy.

“To whoever might claim that action so organised would be an assault on the freedom of the masses, an attempt to create a new authoritarian power, we would reply that he is nothing but a sophist and a fool. So much the worse for those who ignore the natural and social law of human solidarity, to the point of imagining that an absolute mutual independence of individuals and of the masses is something possible, or at least desirable. To wish it means to want the destruction of society, for the whole of social life is no other than this unceasing mutual dependence of individuals and masses. All individuals, even the most intelligent and the strongest, indeed above all the intelligent and strong, each at every moment in his life is at the same time its producer and its product. The very freedom of each individual is no other than the resultant, continually reproduced, of this mass of material, intellectual and moral influences exerted on him by all who surround him, by the society in the midst of which he is born, develops, and dies. To want to escape from this influence in the name of a transcendental, divine, freedom that is absolutely egoistic and sufficient unto itself, is the tendency of non-being. This much vaunted independence of the idealists and metaphysicians, and individual freedom thus conceived, are therefore nothingness."

that torch's project is not for you, or anyone who sees the state as something more than controlling bureaucracies and armed forces. there are philosophically-minded anarchists, and there are practical-minded anarchists. there's little point to talking about the cops in our heads with people who just want to get something done.

I agree that this conversation will not be useful in terms of changing anyone's mind but I am at least interested to hear what Torch aims to accomplish and just offering a critique they can try and wrap their head around so at the very least they can examine how they can reconcile their project with the critiques. I'm definitely under no impression I will get them to stop their project.

If that was your intention you wasted your time. I know apathy breeds contempt and explains your jealousy and hatred of others who do more than sit around and 'offer' criticism of others. But do try and be an adult.

I've fed you enough. So good bye.

I don't want to be an adult, that's kind of the heart of the problem :)

But I'm sorry you've taken my critique so personally. Personally I think it'd be much better if more people sat around doing nothing but critique, far too many people are doing things, if anything we need to do less.

If there is going to be any qualitatively novel anarchic radicalism in the 21st century it will have to feature a total critique of education on the same level as Black and the post-leftists critique of work. The structural parallels are obvious. Black sees work as forced labour and compulsory production. I see education as impersonal learning and alienated knowledge.

The way I see this talking shape is you will have to encourage the development of a marginal current/movement of-what I call-radolescence . These would be pupils in the age group that's over 11 and under 18. These would be one of my insurgent subjects. My Dupontianesque improbable(but not impossible) idea is that enough of them would suspend the education process and cause a shut down of the school system. This is a similar idea to the vital prole labour stoppage idea but without the problems that result from the latter as well as the lacking agency. Pupils are more likely to have active agency in what their education stoppage entails then proles who stop work. For many in the latter the adultifying damage has been done.

There was a dude named wildyouth from back in the day on anti-politics who had a similar idea. I'd suggest tracking down some of his writings.

I do not think this strategy would accomplish anything. But I do agree this is an important topic. I think it's funny youth liberation is at least as old as Goldman's writings and yet in my experience its quite a marginal position among anarchists.

I guess I just don't see how. Student protests are already so controlled, such as teachers leading children out of the school as part of school lead "demonstrations". But even I one agitated students I don't see to what end besides reforms. The only real "radical" movement in schools is probably school shooters like Lanza or Mckinney but they aren't agitated by anything outside of the school but the school itself. And without being too critical of those people, being honest, they don't accomplish grand things, except lasting out at the instution controlling them. Which I think can be good for them but we also shouldnt delude ourselves in thinking it's something larger then that, since that is often when tactics begin to reproduce themselves for their own sake.

wouldn't want to be too critical of mass shooters after all ...

oh really!? how generous of you! think I'll .. go ahead and have clearly different values than that!

A_Zed Bingo:
Everybody Loses!
Pedophilia | Fascism | Sockpuppets
School shooters | Rape | Anti-Skool
Anti-consent | Anti-parents | Beastiality!
Infanticide | Interesting Analysis | AJODA 19!

Anything anti-moral is so based! Those moralists say do not eat people so eating people is based! Oh wait that's not what anti-moral philosophy means at all according to philosophical definitions. Then anti-antimoral is so based and anti definitions too! Learn to think from memes! So based. Wheeeee!

No I think like Willem Van Spronsen while there can be a conversation about how nothing we do is "effective" I think that can be kept separate from understanding this is people lashing out against what they can. And whether or not we think it's misguided personally I think it's kind of lame to be overly critical of them. Especially because of how often these actions are denounced and hidden, such as Lanzas connection to anarchism.

Yeah bro Willem Van Spronsen and Adam Lanza are basically the exact same kind of anarchist. Totally.
***smoke bomb, floats away***

Well obviously WVS was Red and Lanza Green but ultimately their actions were very similar.

Yeah because attacking an ICE facility as a final, desperate act of defiance against the State's incarceration and detainment of immigrants is the totally the same thing as shooting up elementary school children... Good job painting a picture of anarchists exactly the same the State wants you to, you fucking no life troll.

Yes shooting up a state institution is the same as shooting up a state institution.

Yeah those twentyish kindergarten kids might have not realized they were The State but they were totally The State!

Are you that fucking stupid to not know the difference between agents of the State and kindergarten children? Of course not, your just a fucking no life troll.

I just realized that A_Zed is the Colin Robinson (from "What We Do in the Shadows" TV Series) of anarchyland

Colin Robinson, an energy vampire who lives in the basement. He lives by draining humans and vampires of their energy by being boring or frustrating. As a "day walker", he is not harmed by sunlight or entry into churches, he is able to work in a cubicle office and feed on his coworkers' frustrations. Unlike the others, he shows no outward sign of vampirism except that his irises glow when he feeds on energy, and his reflection shows a pale version of himself. The others are continually annoyed by him and often try to avoid associating with him.

I am attempting to ask you a proactive question to spark conversation and challenge assumptions. My point being that police make up the institution of policing to the same extent teachers and students make up the institutions of schooling. Both of these attacks were disruptions of institutions. Again the text Murder of The Civilized which is in black seed issue 5, I think makes the similarities (and differences) clear.

wait... if you see teachers AND students as the institution of schooling, then do you also see police AND those being policed as the institution of policing? and government and the governed ... etc. if so, that seems a rather shallow view of power dynamics.

Yes the policed also make up the institution of policing. Especially as the policed, in a disciplinary manner, reproduce policing in the policed (the cop in their head). In this way then Lamza's critique is in how the student goes on to reproduce society. (To draw on a third source in Post-Scarcity Anarchism Bookchin describes how workers by being in the institution of work, the factory, are indoctrinated and then reproduce bourgeois ideology.

You seem to be asserting a critique, describing this as shallow, could you elaborate in what ways you disagree?

i guess you define "institution" differently than i do. the police are a voluntary (military) force with a monopoly on "legal" violence and in complete service of the state. when i get arrested for shoplifting, that makes me - in your eyes - part of the institution of police. what if i never get caught - am i still part of that institution?

there are plenty of people who cooperate with the police, including those who are victims of the cops and those who are not. the level of cooperation can vary widely, but any cooperation is part of the issue. it's not a binary on/off thing.
we all have cops in our heads.

Exactly, being a policed subject is not about being caught or not, it's about being watched. When one worries about being caught that shapes ones actions, and often the policed function as additional eyes for the police. Those who value safety for example often turn to the police to have that safety, or operate as the police themselves in order to feel safe (such as through vigilante justice).

In this way to escape the institution of policing is not only to not be a cop, but to also not be policed (which j admit is a huge task). And to attempt to disruption an institution, whether intentional or not, both groups will be affected.

Non of that red for ed nonsense where pupils are pied pipered. My crazy improbablistic vision would be a delinquentistic intellectual movement driven by a marginal few in the education process. At the very least you would have those that either disrupt or suspend impersonal learning. At best I'm imagining a May 68 type event but for under 18 over 11s. At the very least it would be interesting and it would drive an education crisis. Whether it's for a 1 percent in ancient times or for most to all in modern times civilization needs some kind of education process as much as it needs work. Introduce a little insurrection and anarchy into the equation and things get crazy chaotic and interesting.

There is another option besides recuperated student vs school shooter that does fall prey to the pathological limits of the latter. Again, I get back to the idea of radical subsocietal egregores.

That would be interesting in some ways but I don't think I share your enthusiasm. I do think what would be interesting is more anarchists trying to reach out to the youths in their life and sharing ideas with them like they would with peers.

Also for those wanting to read more about Lanza I suggest the essay "Murder of The Civilized" from Black Seed issue 5.

The thing I'm entertaining could all recuperate in the end. It would at least be novel and disturb the controlled peace of society. I do agree that intergenerationality is important though. Robert Epstein makes good points in this regard.

In terms of complex extra survival learning one person I always bring up is Sugata Mitra and his field work on self-organized learning and teaching. It's a good case study for anarchists/anarchs with more radical goals to build off of.

Yeah I can agree in that regard. I'll check out that link, thanks.

Could anarchists spawning alternative schools across the state or country lead this drive towards delinquentism from state schools? For example, say a particular state/region had 1,000,000 students. Most attend puplic school, but 250,000 attend private schools and homeschool. If attendance numbers were driven up in alternative 'anarchic' schools and private schools to numbers where the state public school attendance dropped by half or more that would fuel such an educational crisis.
For every 20 or so students who opt out of public school that's one less state nanny position and ~$200,000 (depending on the state) less in their budget.

I'm not dodging, you just brought an irrelevant argument here (i.e. a grand solution for society), to which I cannot answer since as anarchist I feel zero responsibility to answer... as **mass-level solutions are those of State managers**.

Then I ask you what is this alternative school on donations that attracts THOUSANDS of muhrican families and you still aren't following up.

WHOOO is dodging while throwing straw men at me, and putting the entire State responsibilities on my two shoulders?

Plz I wanna know more about this alternative anarchistic school on donations that attracts thousands of families all across the US.

i would love to know how exactly your "private school" protects families from the state. you say you provide a LEGAL ENTITY - in itself a manifestation of state institution - that protects parents from ANY oversight by the state. how exactly does that happen?

But it doesn't mean you'll comprehend. Here goes.
State says all kids 6-16 must attend public school. Governent dictates when, where, how and what is learned. Controlling kids and families. They do this through force. Don't comply you are fined, lose custody, lose civil privileges.
With me so far?
Public school are not bastions of free-thinking and definitely do not support anarchism. Agree?

My school has none of that. An anarchist parent could sign up with an alternative school like mine. The state has no oversight or control of that parent or their children as far as their education goes. ZIP, ZERO, NADA. I exercise no control over the parent or children. They are free to educate or not in whatever way works for them. It's a way to get everybody off their back.

I honestly don't get the confusion or criticism although I know you people love to shoot the shit and take the piss out of everything.

To play devils advocate. Sure, a family could just not register with anything. Refuse to comply with the government. And if you are say a native american or moorish christian or use some other means to stay off societies radar and live off the black market then that would be more anarchist than what I'm doing/suggesting. And that is a goal worth working toward.
I still happen to believe less goverment is actually better than more. You can philosophize about what the most pure expression of anarchy is and that's great. Then there are practical expressions of realizing less goverment control in our daily lives.

you keep repeating yourself, without answering the clearly stated question. let me try again.

when the state knows that parent A has a child (birth certificate, etc), and that child is not enrolled in a state-controlled school, the state goes after the parent. i know this first hand. so now that the state is onto that parent avoiding mandated schooling (including state approved "home schooling"), how does your "school" protect that parent from the state punishing them and taking their kid away? is your school protected from the state somehow?

THAT is the question i am asking. please do not repeat yourself, rather, try to answer what i am asking.

"how does your "school" protect that parent from the state punishing them and taking their kid away?"
Because the student is registered in a private school and isn't truant.
"But is your school protected from the state somehow?"
If the state wanted to make a law and mandate all students MUST attend a public school then no. But some states are more free than others.

"The state has no oversight or control of that parent or their children as far as their education goes. "

interesting. and no oversight over attendance/truancy? very interesting. what are the legal requirements for starting a private school? seems like if the state simply allows anyone to start a private school with no oversight, folks - including anarchists and other critical thinkers - would be doing that shit left and right. why wouldn't every parent that doesn't like the educational systems simply start their own private school and do whatever the fuck they want with their kids (and others for that matter)?

Which is exactly what I did. Now you're catching on.

" why wouldn't every parent that doesn't like the educational systems simply start their own private school and do whatever the fuck they want with their kids (and others for that matter)?"
You'd have to ask them. Easier to sign up with one somebody else started, maybe.

"what are the legal requirements for starting a private school?" there are 50 states. each are slightly different.

hey Torch, assuming this interests you and isn't just pissing you off...

the absence of a "grand plan" is sort of a strange criticism for contemporary anarchists because almost none of them fuck with that shit? those that have bothered to think it through are explicitly rejecting anything beyond a very small scale, often literally just the personal level. this is standard post-left stuff, a deliberate departure from the historic defeat of the working class and the worst failings of marxism, blah blah blah...

adam curtis is one of my favorite contemporary theorists who points out that this MAY be the greatest weakness of whatever counter cultural forces still exist today. mark fisher argued that it's a sort of mental prison for all of us, the lack of any imagination or ability to conceive of an alternative. i think there's some valid insight there.

not sure that's the whole of it tho. i prefer to do more of a materialist analysis of like, military capacity (or total lackthereof?) and be like - that's why we don't need to bother imagining an alternative on any scale. it would be a ton of work, then we'd all get butchered and drown in our own blood anyway, barely having put up a real fight. *sad trombone*

BUUUT it's still an interesting topic tho! how meaningful can anyone's position be if all they're really talking about is like, social harm reduction within capitalism and basic survival? not very ambitious imo!

I abandoned that ill-chosen phrase for an example of anything done at any scale that wasn't state controlled or sought to or actually diminished state control that was within that person's ability. I got nothing. But whining about the burden of responsibility.

Fellow anarchists scoffing at an anarchist that is actually decreasing state control of people lives and offering an alternative to the state is bizarre, insane, and retarded.

If you're looking for a scapegoat for why anarchy will never work it's because it with collapse in upon the feather-weights that purport to be it's champions.

In what ways I'd state control being decreased and not just transformed? Is the idea that control can be decreased not just reformism?

Do you know what a state public education system is? Honest question.
Decreased as in they have no control over that students education. Zero. None.
It isn't that the parents have to still implement the states guidelines and indoctrination. Literally the parent teaches the kids only what they want. No state control or oversight. No state bureaucrat looking into the home and judging or controlling in any way what happens. Period.
In reality it's more abolishing the state public school system to those who participate than a reformation of statist control.
I don't know why this is so hard to understand. It's not an exaggeration. Been doing this for 5 years. Mostly in one US state.
But I do have students in a couple other states. I have a few students in Europe and South America as well.

way more than 5 years. how is your project more anarchist than that, or isn't it? there's an argument that homeschooling is anarchist. generally it happens in christian/conservative households, but doesn't HAVE to...

Register with your county school superintendant by giving them your personal information. Have your child evaluated yearly by a state certified teacher beholden to their bureaucracy, keep a portfolio of education methods, materials, and progress that must be surrendered upon demand. Subject to possible home inspection. Be exposed to possible govermental overreach by enthusiastic state employees. That's a home education program. It has it's pros and cons.

My school requires none of that. And I don't require any beliefs in anything one way or another.
So weird you people can only criticize. SUCH SMALL SHALLOW EXISTENCE.

"So weird you people can only criticize. SUCH SMALL SHALLOW EXISTENCE."

It is not that people here are only criticizing you, I'm fairly confident everyone critiquing you is just as critical of the state school system. We can be critical of both (and more) though. And we don't buy in to better or worse or more or less control. It's different control, not more less better or worse.

1) If you lived in a state where your only choice was to send your child to a state run institution not putting them in would result in police action. Probably ending in loss of custody.
2) But if you could register with a private school that you didn't have to physically attend and they could stay at home with you and you could demonstrate to them without coercion the enlightened ways of your anarchism you would rather do that than the other.

You can't convince me that any anarchist would go for option 1 under the justification that neither one is better or worse. That's just a lie. Period!

And I'm under no illusion about people's 'criticism' ability. The criticisms are invalid (mostly) but it doesn't stop them from being spewed incessantly. But thanks for refraining and going for some fruit a little higher up than most. ;)

Okay well I thinknive stated my critique, and offered readings if you'd like so if you disagree, fair enough. I hope this has been helpful to you in at least some way.

Please don't go. I am hungry. Please pay attention to A_Zed. Please feed A_Zed. You are very interesting. I can't let you leave. What do you think about anarchism? I so hungry please feed A_Zed.

Maybe I'm too out of touch with youth culture but I really don't understand this. Like I'm obviously ending time conversation? So why egg it on with the accusation that I'm hungry for attention?

which is fine. whatever.
i didn't say anything about HEP. i said homeschooling.

maybe make fewer assumptions? just a thought.

A HEP (Home Education Program) is the official name by school districts for homeschooling. Maybe get a clue before scolding others.

Homeschooling has got nothing anarchist per se. Brutally authoritarian , restrictive and conservative households have been doing it for ages. I personally know a few young families engfaged in homeschooling and not only they are state-sanctioned (in order for the kids to keep up with the education system) but are also closed between parents. There's not edven a vetting process for eventual child care workers or educators, it's 100% privately-controlled by the parents, when it's not the government oversight.

So if Torch was talking about himeschooling as a "grand solution for an anarchist society", I think they should get their brain checked. There ARE anarchistic community-based schools, tho, and some I'd get behind. But they havben't worked as alternatives to a State education system, at least beyond a **small scale**.

Nowhere did I say I was homeschooling. It was always another alternative i.e. private school umbrella. Anon brought it up and it was dismissed. With all due respect, Please read better and follow the thread.

Even an alternative school that's successfu on a small scale diminishes state government control and could/should be duplicated and replicated as many times as possible thereby reducing/ eliminating/ abolishing state control over education.

I did read this thread, and noticed how you totally dismissed the comments at 09:34 and 10:29... You're the one who first trolled us with that awesome anarchistic private school on donations, that's been attracting thousands of families.

So now instead of admitting you were just bragging in order to make others feel bad about not having a "grand plan for an anarchist society", you're back-pedalling with small-scale alternative schools but still your ego's too big to admit what is accepted by others like me here... That anarchists aren't about bringing solutions for the masses, in the first place.

Impersonal mass-scale managerial structures intended to bring services to people I don't even know are totally what states are about.

I'm my own state. Controlling the masses. By enabling them to get out from under government control. And by not interfering, dictating, or even suggesting how they do anything.
What a state of my statehood. Definitely run away from it and condemn it whilst calling yourself anarchist. Throw a bomb over your shoulder as you flee.

"Literally the parent teaches the kids only what they want. No state control or oversight"

This is what I am getting at. "The State" is not just these government functions you are talking about, but is the collection of all these institutions, yes including the school but also including the family. And so what you are doing is not abolishing power or control, but shifting it from the teacher/the school to the parent/the family. I forget what issue but this is covered in an essay I believe called "teachers/parents are a conflict of interest" which appeared in No! Against Adult Supremacy! I forget if its just about teachers or parents or both, but is definitely applicable to both.

Have you ever raised a child exercising no control, influence or authority over any of their decisions/actions/choices?

You can claim to be a purist, but it's all theoretical and thought experiments. No reality. But you're free to believe what you want. Give it a try and let me know how it goes.

Just to give the mods more comments to delete, I'll state again, you don't need to control others, and my experience being with people without controlling them has been positive even if it has its ups and downs.

I guess to actually answer the question posed in the title: no anarchy is not inherent to anarchism. C4SS is perhaps the clearest example of this but it certainly isn't limited to them, but most anarchism I've interacted with has little to nothing to do with anarchy and even anarchy which is the common usage of contemporary Insurrectionary anarchists and post left anarchists in the U.S. has little to do with anarchy. So to tie this with the plurality article I think it's important to reconcile that to try and draw a line around anarchism as something coherent is impossible. Even having ones own anarchy being consistent is a daunting task.

I think the best thing one can do is understand the critiques one has of anarchists like c4ss, and still see in what ways they can challenge the ruts we find ourselves in, but see every anarchism as something to ultimately push pass. And through honestly engaging with these sorts of texts/positions/people one can offer a critique that may help those who find themselves stuck in ideology as ultimately, or at least in my case, a large problem is overcoming this ideology, and fixed ideas we find ourselves within.

So while it's really easy to hate on c4ss and especially Gillis himself honestly engaging with people, even when they are completely closed off to ideas, I think can be helpful in offering to others, not just the person person are talking to, possible critiques to the framework they find themselves in.

This nigga been an anarchist for like a whole month come to share his expert opinion!

Yes, anarchism is a system of indignation against the bourgeois stubbornness!

Anews mods should rstop curating the comments. These authoritarian actions are decreasing intention, legibility and unmediated, anarchistic discussion from happening.

Anarchy is a System? Wtf. It's obvious that your Anarchism also is going to be an Ideology... But: not thanks!

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