From "Black Flag Anarchist Review by Wayne Price
Of all the questions dividing anarchists and other libertarian socialists, perhaps the most contentious is that of national self-determination. In recent years this has become a particularly fraught issue with the resistance of the Palestinians to Israeli domination, and, even more, the defensive war of the Ukrainians against the Russian state’s invasion. The question became even more immediate with the U.S./Israeli assault on Iran. Many deny that anarchists can support the efforts of oppressed peoples for independence from imperialist domination.
In my opinion, it can be a useful contribution to examine what Mikhail Bakunin, a founder of revolutionary anarchism, really thought about the self-determination of oppressed nations. (I am not discussing conflicts where both sides are imperialist and colonialist, such as a war between the U.S. and today’s China. In such a case, anarchists would oppose both sides in favor of international revolution.)
In a selection of Bakunin’s writings, Sam Dolgoff (1980) summarizes: “Bakunin argues that the nation-state is not a natural community. He defines the contrast between Nationality, one’s natural love for the place and the people with whom one is reared and indissolubly connected, and Patriotism, the absolute power of the state over its native subjects and conquered national minorities.” (p. 401) Bakunin had a two-sided view of the issue. He was for “the place and the people” but against the State, the bureaucratic-military-capitalist institution which ruled over them.
Bakunin declared, “Nationality, like individuality, is a natural fact. It denotes the inalienable right of individuals, groups, associations and regions to their own way of life. And this way of life is the product of a long historical development. And this is why *I will always champion the cause of oppressed nationalities* struggling to liberate themselves from the domination of the State.” (same; my emphasis)
By calling nationality a “natural fact,” he did not mean that it was biological but that it develops through unplanned historical interactions. By “the domination of the State,” in this instance, he means the domination of the foreign imperial State.
He goes on to say that with “the abolition of the accursed state,” he expects nationalities, provinces, and communes to freely federate from the bottom up. “Socialism is federalist.” (p. 402) (Bakunin called himself a “revolutionary socialist” as well as an anarchist, unlike some current anarchists who reject the “socialist” label.)
Bakunin distinguished between the State and the nation (country, people, national community, or homeland). Although they interact and overlap, he distinguished between them in principle. He opposed “nationalism” because it did not make this distinction but rather subordinated the homeland-nation to the State and its ruling class.
He declared that “each individual, each association, commune, or province, each region and nation, has the absolute right to determine its own fate, to associate with others or not, to ally itself with whomever it will, or break any alliance….” (Guerin 1970; p. 67) This was not nationalism—he remained completely opposed to national States—but anarchism.
After Pan-Slavism
Before he became a revolutionary anarchist, Bakunin was a leading pan-Slavist. He advocated democratic revolutions to free Poland and other Eastern European nations from the Russian, Prussian, and other empires. As he evolved into an anarchist-socialist, he did not abandon his belief in national liberation. He continued to support the struggles for self-determination of Poland and the other Slavic countries. “His project of national liberation of the Slav peoples was not supplanted or completely reconsidered but incorporated into his revolutionary socialism….” (Correa 2024; p. 430) It became integrated with the goal of class liberation of the peasants and workers exploited by their own nation’s rulers.
Bakunin wrote, sarcastically, “Both in international relations as well as relations between classes [one must] always be on the side of those who others want to civilize.” (Correa 2024; p. 406) In his study of Bakunin’s life and theory, Correa writes, “The defense of internationalism and anti-imperialism in no way means abandoning national liberation struggles.… After all, engagement in these causes does not inevitably imply support for the State since [the State] is not synonymous with nation, race, or homeland.” (same)
Bakunin declared, “The State is not the homeland….That is why I feel frankly and always *the patriot of all the oppressed homelands.*” (same; p. 407; emphasis in original.)
The great revolutionary asserted, “Every people, weak or strong, every nation, large or small, every province, every commune has the absolute right to be free, autonomous, to live and govern themselves according to their particular interests and needs.” (same) This does not rule out federations of free peoples, which he advocated. Correa summarizes, “When, because of national domination or imperialism, this self-determination is being undermined, it is the duty of every revolutionary socialist to accept this *patriotism of oppressed homelands*—that is, an *anti-imperialist perspective.*” (same; emphasis in original)
As a revolutionary anarchist-socialist, Bakunin asserted his “strong sympathy for any national uprising against any form of oppression” and recommended that dominated peoples review the history of the Spanish guerrilla war against Napoleon’s army. (Guerin 1970; p. 68)
Bakunin vs. Lenin on National Liberation
What is striking is how much Bakunin’s support for the self-determination of oppressed peoples is an integral part of his anarchism. He rarely just speaks of the rights of nations separately from other social forms. In the quotations I have cited above, he refers to “the inalienable right of individuals, groups, associations and regions to their own way of life.” He mentions “each individual, each association, commune, or province, each region and nation” and “Every people, weak or strong, every nation, large or small, every province, every commune.” For him, freedom and self-determination should be at every level and in any way involving human society. *This is what he meant by anarchism.*
Lenin advocated national self-determination as one more of his party’s demands. And it was transactional: his goal was to win over the people of oppressed nations so that they would—eventually—agree to voluntary mergers into a centralized single unit. It would become a country with a centralized economy, managed by a centralized State, overseen by a single centralized party. This will, he hoped, end in a centralized world society—a monstrous vision.
Some ignorant anarchists claim that national self-determination was invented by Lenin and therefore cannot be an anarchist idea. I have demonstrated, by referring to the words of Bakunin, that this is factually untrue. The reverse thought was expressed by Daniel Guerin:
“True internationalism rests on self-determination, which implies the right of secession….Lenin and the Congresses of the Third International adopted this concept from Bakunin, and the Bolsheviks made it the foundation of their policy on nationalities and of their anti-colonialist strategy—until they eventually belied it to turn to authoritarian centralization and disguised imperialism.” (Guerin 1970; p. 67)
It is unlikely that Lenin adopted any concepts from Bakunin, given Lenin’s low opinion of anarchist theory. In any case, the right of national self-determination was raised well before either Lenin or Bakunin. It was part of the early democratic program, from the 17th century on. This included free speech, freedom of assembly, habeas corpus, election of officials, land to those who work it, the right to bear arms, the equality of all before the law, and so forth. These demands were only honored by the capitalists’ State when under pressure from below. They are now under siege in the present-day decline of capitalism—as appears in the international rise of ultra-right and supposed-left authoritarian governments.
Some people argue that they are all for national self-defense against imperialist aggression, but not if the oppressed nation has a State. As anarchists, they say, they cannot support the oppressed country against the imperialist invader. Unlike Bakunin, they confuse the nation with the State.
Currently all oppressed nations either have their own States (such as Ukraine) or are led by those who want to set up a State (such as Palestine)--with the arguable exception of Rojava. Unfortunately anarchists have not yet persuaded the working people of these countries of a no-state solution. Therefore to oppose these countries in their national resistance is to reject—in practice—all cases of national rebellion, whatever your abstract opinion. Such a stance will continue to make the people think that anarchists have nothing to say to them.
Conclusion
The Brazilian anarchist Correa notes that many anarchists downplay or ignore Bakunin’s solidarity with oppressed peoples. He suspects this has to do with Western imperialist prejudices.
“There is, on the part of different researchers, a minimization of the theme of national and anti-imperialist liberation in Bakunin’s life and work from 1864 onward. Perhaps this is explained…by the fact that these researchers live, in most cases, in the central countries of the North Atlantic axis.” (Correa 2024; p. 307)
I do not quote Bakunin because I think that his writings prove that my views are correct. Bakunin was not a holy prophet and his writings are not sacred scripture. Some things he got wrong, in my opinion. We are anarchists, not Bakuninists. (For an overview of Bakunin, his contributions and his errors, see Price 2025.)
However, (1) his writings demonstrate the falsity of claiming that real anarchists never support national self-determination. Bakunin declared himself “the patriot of all the oppressed homelands” who “will always champion the cause of oppressed nationalities” and expressed ““strong sympathy for any national uprising.” And clearly Bakunin was an anarchist.
(2) Bakunin argued that the State and the nation (homeland) were distinct. Anarchists were opposed to the State and sought to overturn it, while rejecting the statist ideology of “nationalism.” (Anarchists develop tactics for what to do when statists are leading the national resistance and the anarchists are not yet strong enough to turn it into a social revolution.)
Bakunin supported the peoples, the homelands, the nations, against oppression by the rulers of other nations. This was seen by him as part of internationalism, not opposed to it. He expected nations to associate through bottom-up voluntary federation. “Socialism is federalist.”
(3) Bakunin demonstrated that countries’ self-determination, as he saw it, was integral to his vision of anarchism. A program which supports self-determination for individuals, communities, cities, self-managed industries, regions, and provinces, but not for nations, would be a peculiar sort of anarchism.
Anarchism means stateless and classless freedom, equality, community, and democratic self-determination for every part of society, at every level and in every way.
References
Correa, Felipe (2024). Freedom or Death: The Theory and Practice of Mikhail Bakunin. (Trans.: Jonathan Payn). Montreal/NYC: Black Rose Books.
Dolgoff, Sam (Editor) (1980). Bakunin on Anarchy. Montreal: Black Rose Books.
Guerin, Daniel (1970). Anarchism: From Theory to Practice. NY: Monthly Review Press.
Price, Wayne (2025). “Bakunin’s Anarchism Reconsidered: Review of Freedom or Death: The Theory and Practice of Mikhail Bakunin by Felipe Correa.” https://itha-iath.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/04/Wayne_Price-Bakunin_Re…
*written for Black Flag: Anarchist Review
Comments
"Some people argue that they…
Malatester (not verified) Sun, 06/21/2026 - 07:41
"Some people argue that they are all for national self-defense against imperialist aggression, but not if the oppressed nation has a State. As anarchists, they say, they cannot support the oppressed country against the imperialist invader."
Nobody argues this. It's a rhetorical trick Wayne uses to reinforce his own support for the Ukrainian state. Anarchists should (and used to) support national self-determination but not states. Whereas Wayne believes that because we support Ukrainian self-determination and they have a state we must support that state. This is not what Malatesta or Kropotkin argued in 1897 with regard to Crete or Bonanno argued in his Anarchism and the National Liberation Struggle. We support the struggle for self-determination but not the state and certainly not an alliance of imperialist states like NATO. Just like we can support a strike without necessarily supporting a union or a company's competition with another company.
Wayne Price is like 60…
Erika O'Malley-Testa (not verified) Sun, 06/21/2026 - 13:04
Wayne Price is like 60. Youth supremacy or bust.
I wish!
Wayne Price@ (not verified) Sun, 06/21/2026 - 14:58
In reply to Wayne Price is like 60… by Erika O'Malley-Testa (not verified)
Older than that, I am afraid, Erika. I just turned 80. I have had many years of making mistakes, personal and political; I changed my mind politically more often than I like to admit. I went from childhood liberal to anarchist-pacifist to reformist wing of Trotskyism to revolutionary but unorthodox Trotskyism to revolutionary anarchism--and I am still not done! I have participated in what there was of revolutionary activities, union opposition work, reading, teaching, and writing. I made a living as a special ed teacher and then school psychologist.
Whether this experience has resulted in an increase in knowledge and wisdom, I leave for others to decide. I doubt that it automatically qualifies me for a "learned elder" or "wise grandpa" award. But "youth supremacy" also does not seem much of a worthwhile goal. Everyone, at every age, must do their best.
I disagree with many/most of…
Someone (not verified) Thu, 06/25/2026 - 22:52
In reply to I wish! by Wayne Price@ (not verified)
I disagree with many/most of your positions on various things but I never knew your age or much history. I do have respect for you still taking time to argue/debate your ideas when most would be doing something else at that age.
I wish Malatester had…
Wayne Price@ (not verified) Sun, 06/21/2026 - 14:17
I wish Malatester had spelled out what he means by "supporting" or "not supporting" a nation and/or its state. I would say--and have said repeatedly--that I support a people's self-determination but do not support their state or any alliance they make with imperialists. For Malatester to say otherwise about my views seems to be a deliberate lie. But perhaps there is an element of confusion here.
Consider their analogy of "we can support a strike without necessarily supporting a union." Well, anarchists can support a strike while being political opponents of its bureaucratic, reformist, misleadership. But if the strike pits the union, the current organization of workers (like it or not), against the bosses, we should be on the side of the union, while advocating our revolutionary policies. And if the state arrests and jails the union leadership, we must demand their release and denounce the courts. Not because we love the union bureaucrats, but because their jailing is really an attack on the striking workers.
Similarly, we are enemies of the national-capitalist-state and encourage the working people to overthrow it. An invasion of the oppressed country (not talking about an invasion of an imperialist country) does not change our opposition to the state. If possible, we want to organize an independent working class military force--a militia or guerrilla army--to fight against the imperialist invaders.
But suppose we can't do that--anarchists are too few and weak? Suppose the only force currently fighting against the imperialist invaders is the regular army of the national state? Suppose the mass of workers and others are for the state and army and not for an anarchist army? Do we wash our hands of them?
Or are we on the side of that mass of workers and others in fighting the invaders, even as we raise our revolutionary anarchist politics wherever we can? Practically we may cooperate, one way or another, with the bourgeoisie and their state, but politically we are not "supporting" them. Whenever an opportunity arises for a rebellion, a mutiny, or a strike, we support that!
In the Spanish Civil War, the anarcho-syndicalists like Durruti built their own militia columns to fight the fascists (they had enough popular support to do this). However, they coordinated with the regular military (as opposed to some, such as Bordigists who regarded both sides as equivalent). The left-wing anarchists who opposed the anarchist leadership (such as the Friends of Durruti) objected to the prominent anarchists joining the government, in political alliance with social democrats, pro-capitalist liberals, and Stalinists. But they did not object to practical military cooperation against the fascists--until they would be able to overthrow the state!
(Similarly with Makhno's Independent Army, which cooperated with the Bolshevik "Red Army" to fight the Whites, the Austrians, and the nationalists. )
The Friends of Durruti wrote, "There must be no collaboration with capitalism, whether outside the bourgeois state or from within the government itself....Class struggle is no obstacle to workers continuing at present to fight on in the battlefields and working in the war industries....For as long as the war lasts, collaboration is permissible--on the battlefield, in the trenches, on the parapets and in productive labor in the rearguard." (Towards a Fresh Revolution; 1938)
The Spanish Civil War and…
Malatester (not verified) Sun, 06/21/2026 - 16:12
In reply to I wish Malatester had… by Wayne Price@ (not verified)
The Spanish Civil War and Makhno’s forces are not particularly relevant to your argument because today’s anarchists in Ukraine don’t have their own autonomous forces with which to form any kind of coordination or alliance with statist forces. Today’s anarchists in Ukraine are simply enlisting as soldiers for the Ukrainian state. They are state employees like cops or government officials. They cannot ally with the state because they are part of the state, the same as any other soldier. (Durruti also officially rejected militarization of the militias, and armies as such, due to them being hierarchical, but again, different situation.)
“But suppose we can't do that--anarchists are too few and weak? Suppose the only force currently fighting against the imperialist invaders is the regular army of the national state? Suppose the mass of workers and others are for the state and army and not for an anarchist army? Do we wash our hands of them?”
Anarchists are under no obligation to join state forces, even if they think a particular struggle is the most righteous one in the world. Mussolini challenged Malatesta on WWI arguing, you say you want Germany to lose, so why don’t you support state armies fighting Germany? And Malatesta’s response was that even if we prefer a certain outcome it can still be more harmful than beneficial to actively work toward that outcome via statist methods. There are other things anarchists can do than join the state, and when you think about it, there is no lack of statist forces, it makes no sense for relatively small numbers of anarchists to simply ride the state’s coattails instead of doing their own thing.
With the example of the union being repressed, we can oppose state repression of a union without supporting the union, just like we can and did oppose the invasion of Iraq by America and Ukraine etc. without supporting Hussein’s regime.
You have written multiple articles where you defend anarchists joining the Ukrainian army. In your speech at the 2023 LA anarchist book fair you said, “They [anarchists in Ukraine] must either support the existing army in one way or another, or be passive.“
Not sure if you’re aware or not but the army is part of the state, if you support (actually, join) the army, you are by definition supporting the state because that is the function of the army, supporting the state it is part of. You actually seem quite confused about this because you continuously bring up that anarchists in Ukraine haven’t supported the government because they haven’t voted for the government, when serving in its army is of far greater support to the government than voting for it.
You also said, “anarchist participation in the war, in whatever capacity, can only increase positive views of anarchists among the population.”
Which is like saying that if we anarchists are really good workers at our jobs at Walmart or wherever, if we always pay our rent on time and even give our landlord a tip, our fellow citizens will start respecting us. This is an entirely anti-anarchist and anti-revolutionary viewpoint you are advancing.
how about define what a …
anonymous (not verified) Sun, 06/21/2026 - 20:33
In reply to I wish Malatester had… by Wayne Price@ (not verified)
how about define what a “nation” is? nationalists of both left and right take this concept as self evident, yet it’s only existed for about the same time in history as capitalism (for some weird reason..!)
A nation is a natural…
GO3 Mon, 06/22/2026 - 06:35
In reply to how about define what a … by anonymous (not verified)
A nation is a natural organization of people with a collective identity. The nation state is a big tent which includes many nationalities.
Individualists are the…
GO3 Mon, 06/22/2026 - 06:39
In reply to A nation is a natural… by GO3
Individualists are the antithesis of nationalists and resist categorization and belonging to identity groups.
communists* resist…
anonymous (not verified) Mon, 06/22/2026 - 08:15
In reply to Individualists are the… by GO3
communists* resist nationalism because it promotes solidarity between the ruling class and the rest on grounds of as you said, “natural” communities which were actually formed by the bourgeois state rather than vice versa (think of the way centralized nation-states, created by bourgeois revolutions of the 17-19th c. have enforced a standard language for their own convenience, as well as creating state churches etc). the ruling class always projects its “naturalness” and inevitability backwards in time; “winners write history”
*imo true communists are internationalist and anti state, and reject capitalist ideologies entirely
"natural" Since when facts…
anonymous (not verified) Mon, 06/22/2026 - 13:09
In reply to A nation is a natural… by GO3
"natural"
Since when facts of culture are natural?
"Naturalized" may apply, but to call it nature... that's absurd.
Natural means organic or…
GO3 Tue, 06/23/2026 - 07:49
In reply to "natural" Since when facts… by anonymous (not verified)
Natural means organic or organized around bodies. Nation states are synthetic, organized around ideology and conceptual frameworks.
What is a Nation? Is it "Natural"?
Wayne Price@ (not verified) Mon, 06/22/2026 - 15:27
In reply to how about define what a … by anonymous (not verified)
Humans have self-organized into groups, communities, tribes, extended families, villages, cities, regions, leagues, etc. for as long as there have been people (unlike Bakunin, individualist-anarchists do not take into account what social animals we are). However "nations" developed with the rise of European capitalism. Local groups merged together, either "naturally" or by the force of rulers.
By "naturally" Bakunin meant that communities or nations were not planned and deliberately unified. They slowly evolved, culturally, socially, and politically. This is not entirely true but mainly the case.
Nations developed because European capitalism needed larger markets with freer trade within them and a unified money and rules. Of course many things developed along with capitalism. Besides nationalism this included industrialism, democracy, socialism, anarchism, etc. These spread throughout the world, being changed by local cultures. And nations almost always had their own states--unless they were ruled by the states (and ruling classes) of other states. In that case they wanted to be independent, which (for most, not all) meant their own capitalist class and their own state (the program of nationalism).
A nation is the people with a common sense of themselves as a people (usually--not always--with a common language distinct from other peoples; a common land; a common history). It may or may not have a common state.
The State and the nation are not the same. Today almost all peoples want their own State, but that has not always been true. Anarchist-socialists want the end of all States, but not the end of nations in one homogeneous, super-centralized, world (as do the Leninists). Besides being internationalists, we are decentralists, regionalists, and pluralists. In the article, I quote Bakunin, "Socialism is federalist."
How do we determine what is a nation? There is no hard-and-fast rule, like deciding what is a dog or an amoeba. The question is whether the people themselves regard themselves as being a distinct country. If the Ukrainian people, the Palestinian people, or the Pakistani people, did not regard themselves as nations, they would not be nations.
The same is true of the people of the Donbas; I do not believe that factually they have chosen independence, let alone merger into Russia. If I did, I would support them against Ukraine. What counts is the principle.
“ A nation is the people…
anonymous (not verified) Tue, 06/23/2026 - 06:52
In reply to What is a Nation? Is it "Natural"? by Wayne Price@ (not verified)
“ A nation is the people with a common sense of themselves as a people”
that’s a “volk,” wayne. are the bourgeoisie of my nation “my people”? what about the “foreigners” who live among us - or among the ukrainian, palestinian, kurdish, etc “volk/nation/people”? how can you expect to support any kind of nationalism, no matter how “underdog” currently (tell the truth: did you support israel as a young leftist?) without endangering minorities and endorsing class collaboration?
I tend to be a one worlder…
GO3 Tue, 06/23/2026 - 08:10
In reply to What is a Nation? Is it "Natural"? by Wayne Price@ (not verified)
I tend to be a one worlder. We're all members of the human race that lives together on a small planet. Despite the differences between us we have common dreams. The globalist vision has almost been accomplished. If you think about it there really isn't that much war compared to all the peaceful countries. There's Ukraine war, Middle East wars and some wars in Africa. So we almost have world peace if you look at all the rest of the places where there is no war. But there's other problems, people who are excluded from the productive process. Overall a lot of progress has been made on the long road to socialism. The leaders of the forces of reaction and the fascist international are proving to be pretty retarded so I think we'll see a resurgence of social democracy and a de-escalation of the conflict zones and hotspots that exist at the moment.
One World with Many Peoples
Wayne Price@ (not verified) Tue, 06/23/2026 - 11:40
In reply to I tend to be a one worlder… by GO3
Oh GO3, I wish I could share your optimism! We do not "almost have world peace." Europe is currently having its biggest war since WW II. As you say, Africa has civil and international wars in several regions. The mighty US, under its crazed president, has attacked several nations, waged a war in Iran (which may or may not be over--for now), and threatened other countries. The mad dog of Israel is constantly waging war. There is a real danger of a world-threatening US-China war over Taiwan. So far the world's states have avoided a nuclear war, but they have been unable or unwilling to get rid of these weapons. It would only take one relatively small nuclear exchange (between India and Pakistan, for example) to destroy much of the biosphere.
Other dangers are still real. Capitalist industrialism increasingly threatens the
world's ecological balance and the survival of all organisms (including humans).
The leaders of states talk about it but do little or nothing. The US under the deluded Trump appears to have declared war on the environment. Meanwhile the possibility of an economic collapse is a serious concern.
In the US as in many countries there is a polarization. A growth of fascism and authoritarianism is matched by a growing resistance on the Left. There is an expansion of "socialism," although it is unclear what that means to people. Authoritarian, statist, socialism is the main sort (even "democratic socialism" is liberal state socialism). But there is also the growth of anarchism and libertarian socialism. I make no predictions, positively or negatively, but that is our only hope.
white nationalism, now…
anonymous (not verified) Sun, 06/21/2026 - 16:26
white nationalism, now anarchist-approved (as long as it’s far away), sanctified by she arch-anti-semite bakunin. yes, the wonderful national “people” (which of course incudes the bourgeoise and the state) and of course the mystical bond of “blood and soil”
it is straight up funny/pathetic that there are so many “anarchists” who can’t figure out if nationalism is “good or bad.” did you know a lot of leftists supported israel in the beginning? and now the support palestinian nationalism because they have no ability to learn from history but just pile onto “hot” issues with the rest of the activists. can we do better?
Yeah, it's true, the Nazis…
Malatester (not verified) Mon, 06/22/2026 - 06:17
In reply to white nationalism, now… by anonymous (not verified)
Yeah, it's true, the Nazis used a time machine and went back and forced Bakunin to support self-determination. They did the same thing with Louise Michel, forcing her to support the Kanaks against the French. And on and on. Real anarchists support European empires. They don't fall for Nazi tricks like supporting Indigenous peoples against those empires. Thanks for the reminder anonymous.
sorry could you try saying…
anonymous (not verified) Mon, 06/22/2026 - 08:20
In reply to Yeah, it's true, the Nazis… by Malatester (not verified)
sorry could you try saying whatever point you think you’re making without so many layers of sarcasm? thanks other anon.
if you truly don’t think bakunin was an anti semite, wow, he was VERY explicit about it in his writings.
anyway i guess you support zionism because it’s an indigenous land back movement, solidarity with the victims of european oppression, etc? do you have an opinion on ukraine? if you live in the donbas what kind of dna do you have to have in order to not deserve to be burned alive by nationalist troops if one or the other side? do you have a serious answer to the question of who is truly “indigenous” and why this apparently justifies jettisoning all anarchist and anti-capitalist principles? thx again bestie
Bakunin was antisemitic! He…
Malatester (not verified) Mon, 06/22/2026 - 11:25
In reply to sorry could you try saying… by anonymous (not verified)
Bakunin was antisemitic! He was also anti-native (specifically arctic Native peoples)! The point was that he talked about self-determination for all nations/peoples long before the Nazis existed. To retroactively apply Nazi ideology to him is to whitewash the Nazis not make Bakunin worse than he already was without them. The fact that he was racist against Natives and Jews doesn't mean we should extend his racism to all peoples but the opposite, that we should extend the principle he claimed, self-determination for all peoples, to Jews and Natives as well. (Self-determination is NOT the right to a state, by the way.)
Zionism is colonialism not anti-colonialism. Indigenous peoples are made Indigenous by the settler state, which is why Palestinians are Indigenous and Israelis are colonizers. Specific Indigenous peoples, let's say Mi'kmaq, are not made Mi'kmaq or whichever by colonialism, they are made Indigenous. Peoples pre-exist both colonialism and capitalism.
People in the Donbas have as much right to self-determination as Ukrainians do. Peoples are not races, nations have nothing to do with DNA, they are political or societal groups. Hope this helps. You waste a lot of time with your bad faith stance out the gate!
so nazi ideology was created…
anonymous (not verified) Tue, 06/23/2026 - 07:00
In reply to Bakunin was antisemitic! He… by Malatester (not verified)
so nazi ideology was created out of thin air in 1933? is that what you think? weren’t the jews in europe an internal colony - or do you agree with bakunin’s perception of them as elites? how is zionism not about this exact concept of popular sovereignty you’re describing? only now you have to redefine it since it succeeded.
please enlighten me what is “the right of a people to self-determination” if not the right of a state, determined as it has been throughout the era of capitalism as a largely homogeneous community (ethnically, religiously etc) bound to a certain territory? how does this wonderful “popular sovereignty” (the promise of literally all the bourgeois revolutions) not going to devolve into purging and consolidation, the exact type of ethnopolitical conflicts we are talking about?
“the right of peoples to self-determination” is leftist rhetorical gobbledygook, best left with lenin in his glass case. it signifies nothing but a renovation of the most basic and brutal forms of capitalistic politics under an apparently “revolutionary” aegis.
by the way the nazis…
anonymous (not verified) Mon, 06/22/2026 - 08:24
In reply to Yeah, it's true, the Nazis… by Malatester (not verified)
by the way the nazis ABSOLUTELY supported “indigenous resistance to colonialism” because they considered themselves the indigenous people of germany (another “naturally occurring” nation which is the same age as capitalism for some reason) being colonized by jewish elites. the term antisemitism was adopted to replace “judenhass”(“jew-hate”) to emphasize that they considered it a european native struggle against “asiatic” domination.
no time machine needed anon, just eyes to see and read with and a brain to think
Have you ever considered…
Malatester (not verified) Mon, 06/22/2026 - 11:28
In reply to by the way the nazis… by anonymous (not verified)
Have you ever considered that just because the Nazis said something that doesn't necessarily mean it's true? You don't have to hand it to the Nazis, under any circumstances. They wanted to genocide Jews and Slavs, so by definition, they weren't defending all peoples from imperialism and colonialism, they were the imperialists/colonizers. Anonymous Nazi fanboys fuck off!
have you ever considered my…
anonymous (not verified) Tue, 06/23/2026 - 12:57
In reply to Have you ever considered… by Malatester (not verified)
have you ever considered my actual point which is that when you use the exact same logics and rhetoric, as you pursue the same fundamental program of “nationhood”, it doesn’t really matter whether you call yourself anarchist or liberal or nazi, whether you call it some kind of ill-defined peoplehood or sovereignty. you are just reinventing the fucking wheel.
have you ever considered how zionism went from being something supported by anarchists and communists, not just to what it is now, but to becoming consecrated as the certified antifascist conscience of the new “free” cold war europe, dutifully supported by a west german state still run by actual nazis, assuring as well that the jews would have somewhere to leave to and never return (a kind of “solution” if you will) ?
if not then just consider that you are looking at the subjective and ideological side of politics like the great lib/“antifa” common front of the first trump era and its obsession with searching out “dog whistles” (and/or punching chuds) as if in order to have to not notice that it’s actually all around us, and the call is coming from inside the house. or i don’t know, maybe pick up a fucking history book and learn a thing or two? goodbye and good luck …
Nazi Propaganda
Wayne Price@ (not verified) Tue, 06/23/2026 - 12:01
In reply to by the way the nazis… by anonymous (not verified)
The Jews were a genuinely oppressed people, a minority of whom adopted the nationalist program of Zionism (making them oppressors of another people). The Irish were long oppressed by Britain. Their nationalist demand for their own State was eventually won in part, but did not solve their real problems.
Neither the Jews nor the Irish were similar to the Germans, a big country with its own State. After WW I, Germans suffered from the aftermath of the war and from the international economic crisis (the Depression, etc.). The German workers were oppressed as workers, but not as Germans.
To compare the German people to the Irish or pre-Zionist Jews is simply Nazi ideology. Whether this is a conscious effort to bring fascist ideas into an anarchist discussion, I do not know, but that is what it does.
Modern natlib movements…
anonymous (not verified) Mon, 06/22/2026 - 11:54
Modern natlib movements usually are a phony political shit show... and that's part of why they deserve rejection from an anarchist perspective.
Palestine... Ukraine... Cuba... Israel (i.e. the first anti-imperialist, autonomous natlib movement in the Middle-east!)... Cuba... and that awfully racist Boer movement that Malatesta paid lip service to. They're constructs of foreign powers.
But it's also true that even the more authentic indigenous natlib movements -like, yes, German Nazism as well as Irish nationalism- can be way problematic too.
The concept of "nation" isn't always the same. There's the ethnically-rooted notion, and there's the modern politically-charged one. There's nation and there's nationality.
But I guess that both are oblivious of the person, at an individual level, in their lived existence. They are about the existent...
Anyone who calls Israel and…
Malatester (not verified) Mon, 06/22/2026 - 14:53
In reply to Modern natlib movements… by anonymous (not verified)
Anyone who calls Israel and the Nazis natlib movements deserves ejection from the anarchist scene not just rejection from the anarchist perspective.
they literally are though..?…
anonymous (not verified) Tue, 06/23/2026 - 07:03
In reply to Anyone who calls Israel and… by Malatester (not verified)
they literally are though..?? i mean that’s how they defined themselves, for the “self-determination” (but not a state?) of “peoples” (which are “naturally occurring and not historically contingent political formations??)
but thanks for affirming that your definition of anarchism is rejecting reality, history and anyone who points it out
From their POV they were,…
anonymous (not verified) Tue, 06/23/2026 - 08:01
In reply to Anyone who calls Israel and… by Malatester (not verified)
From their POV they were, beyond doubt, anti-imperial national liberation.
For the Nazis, like another commenter already explained, the plan of the German Nazis was to save the German "Aryans" from the clutches of the global Jewish/Freemason plot, that included both Soviet communism and Western capitalism. They seeked to renew or rebuild the Aryan race through eugenics, but politically they also had to get rid of a lot of "inferiors" in order to cleanse the Reich. The war in their view was to create a "vital space" for the Aryan race to thrive, outside of the foreign influences.
The Jewish liberation war (as it is officially called) was a war fought against the British mandate as well as the Pan-Arabic factions that wanted to secure land for the surrounding monarchies. In the zionist view, the Jews were natives to the region and therefore they had to free themselves from the British Empire and secure themselves against the antisemite Arab factions, and have a nation-state for themselves, on the Holy Land.
So what is the truest form of national liberation? I mean one that isn't up to the views of those bringing it forth, but *objectively* is national liberation?
I also am wondering if you wouldn't be actually the one deserving of being kicked out of anarchy, over being such a hardcore, knee-jerk defender of national liberation... as if that was the core substance of anarchism. Interesting question, no? What if you're really a nationalist and socialist?
seeked > sought
your friendly … Tue, 06/23/2026 - 11:59
In reply to From their POV they were,… by anonymous (not verified)
seeked > sought
Well, you're the one…
Malatester (not verified) Tue, 06/23/2026 - 13:59
In reply to From their POV they were,… by anonymous (not verified)
Well, you're the one regurgitating Nazi propaganda as if it was true and neglecting to consider that Germany was an empire not a colonized nation, had already committed genocide in Africa before WWII came around. Whereas Bakunin, Michel, Kropotkin, Malatesta, Magón, etc. all supported the liberation of oppressed nations (not empires, until Kropotkin changed colors come WWI). You are someone who thinks the Yaqui being free from Mexican oppression is exactly the same as the Nazis committing genocide against Jews and Slavs. You are openly a reactionary nationalist fanboying for the Nazis. Ejection from the anarchist scene would be the bare minimum for a fascist like you. Marxists have been ejected for much less, don't think Nazis like you won't be.
"you're the one…
anonymous (not verified) Tue, 06/23/2026 - 20:08
In reply to Well, you're the one… by Malatester (not verified)
"you're the one regurgitating Nazi propaganda as if it was true and..." no, you're a moron. I shouldn't have to explain the difference between reading some group or movement's POV and believing in it. Duh.
"Germany was an empire not a colonized nation", yes, but they were beaten and impoverished by the so-callled Jewish/Masonic plot leading the Allied powers as well as Soviet Russia.
Same for Palestine... you can go to great stupid lengths to make-believe the tall tale of "them invaded us, we PUUURE natives of the land". While there was a level of Palestinian identity before the British came in, the region was dominated by Arab principalities. It had nothing to do with a cuntry being invaded by the "Joooz". This piece of land was set to fall under the control of the Kingdom of Jordan before the Balfour declaration happened.
And then you got Israel... another made-up nation born out of a successful war, yet based on shoehorned biblical interpretations.
These are just examples of inauthentic national liberation movements that aren't as autonomous or even "native" as you might like...
Looking to the 19th century…
anonymous (not verified) Mon, 06/22/2026 - 16:44
Looking to the 19th century for guidance on what anarchists thought about nationalism is pretty pointless to me, since they didn't have the last 100+ years of experience with the awful places nationalism always leads.
one could also point out…
anonymous (not verified) Tue, 06/23/2026 - 07:06
In reply to Looking to the 19th century… by anonymous (not verified)
one could also point out that a century or more ago nationalist movements were mostly fighting feudal regimes and therefore what marxism called “historically progressive.” nationalism is part and parcel of capitalist and bourgeois politics. it’s always about the “self-determination of peoples”. that’s why marxists and anarchists supported bourgeois revolutions in places like spain and russia, with the hope that the fully communist revolution would follow. turns out that turned out not so great !
The litmus test is if you…
GO3 Tue, 06/23/2026 - 08:30
In reply to Looking to the 19th century… by anonymous (not verified)
The litmus test is if you can dance there.
No, it's the other way…
Malatester (not verified) Tue, 06/23/2026 - 13:53
In reply to Looking to the 19th century… by anonymous (not verified)
No, it's the other way around, because Palestine and Kanaky (and every Indigenous nation occupied by the US and Canada) have yet to be liberated 100+ years later, and some of those struggles are more militant and progressive than the struggles of the business unions or the white working class of America or Canada or Europe. We have experience with class reductionism and imperialism always leading to awful places, and marxists posing as anarchists but neglecting to do their homework.
finally wayne if you cared…
anonymous (not verified) Tue, 06/23/2026 - 12:46
finally wayne if you cared so much about the people of ukraine you would have had something to say even like once in the past four years about the rampaging violent fascists in that country who’ve burned roma and trade unionists to death and now have their own units in the military, along with the “anarchists” and the rest of the “people” in question. but like … have you? even once? are you a full-on denialist? because i’ve seen you deny that anyone in donbas actually wants to be part of russia even though manifestly a lot of them have and do. not that it matters which state is abusing the masses, but if you agreed with that i guess you would not have to deny the obvious so rotely.
its fissures in places like the donbas, palestine, sudan, etc that reveal how inherently genocidal nation-states always are, no matter how democratic, no matter how “autonomously supported”
and why are you always talking aboutit in terms of “you are telling the ukrainian people not to resist!!” no dude! we are telling YOU to stop white knighting actual NAZIS!!
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