BBC News: Alarm at Greek police 'collusion' with far-right Golden Dawn

  • Posted on: 20 October 2012
  • By: worker

<table><tr><td>From <a href="">BBC</a>

Greece's far-right party, Golden Dawn, won 18 parliamentary seats in the June election with a campaign openly hostile to illegal immigrants and there are now allegations that some Greek police are supporting the party.

"There is already civil war," says Ilias Panagiotaros. If so, the shop he owns is set to do a roaring trade.

It sells camouflage gear, police riot gloves, face masks and T-shirts extolling football hooliganism.

On the walls are posters celebrating the last civil war in Greece, which ended in 1949.

"Greek society is ready - even though no-one likes this - to have a fight: a new type of civil war," he says.

"On the one side there will be nationalists like us, and Greeks who want our country to be as it used to be, and on the other side illegal immigrants, anarchists and all those who have destroyed Athens several times," he adds.</td><td><img title="I wish" src=""></td></t...
You hear comments like this a lot in Greece now but Ilias Panagiotaros is not some figure on the fringes: he is a member of the Greek parliament, one of 18 MPs elected for the far-right Golden Dawn in June's general election.
Theatre attack

And for Mr Panagiotaros, civil war is not something theoretical.

Last week he led a demonstration that closed down a performance of the Terence McNally play, Corpus Christi.

As police stood by, apparently oblivious, Mr Panagiotaros was filmed shouting racist and homophobic insults at the director of the play, and the actors cowering inside the Chyterio Theatre.
“Start Quote

The attack on Corpus Christi has become a signal moment for Greek politics”

"Wrap it up you little faggots. Yes, just keep staring at me you little hooker. Your time is up.

"You Albanian assholes," shouts Mr Panagiotaros in the YouTube clip.

Footage filmed inside the theatre, as rocks showered into its open-air auditorium, shows the manager making frantic calls to the chief of police, demanding protection from a mob that had begun to beat up journalists outside.

Other footage shows Golden Dawn MP Christos Pappas "de-arrest" a demonstrator, pulling him from a police detention coach, as the police do nothing.

Calls were made to the public order ministry, who ordered the chief prosecutor to attend the scene. No help arrived.

"This was the Greek Kristallnacht," says Laertis Vassiliou, the play's director.

"People went home with broken bones. Every day they phone me now, they phone the theatre, saying: your days are numbered."

His eyes redden and his face begins to tremble as he tells me:

"They phoned my mother, Golden Dawn. They said we will deliver your son's body to you in a box of little pieces.

"I want to be told if we are in a democracy or a dictatorship?"
Growing alarm

The attack on Corpus Christi has become a signal moment for Greek politics.

Though Golden Dawn members have attacked migrants frequently, in the past month the far-right party has stepped up its presence on the streets.

It launched a raid on a street market in Rafina, where its uniformed activists demanded to see the permits of migrant stallholders there - demonstratively smashing up the property of those who did not have them.

Now, with the attack on a theatre group, alarm is spreading among sections of society that were not previously affected by the party's actions.

I ask Mr Panagiotaros: how can it be right for a party in parliament to have a uniformed militia that takes on, violently, the role of law enforcement, checking papers and overturning market stalls? He explains:

"With one incident, which was on camera, the problem was solved - in every open market all over Greece illegal immigrants disappeared.

"There was some pushing and some fighting - nothing extraordinary, nothing special.
“Start Quote

Policing the Greek crisis would pose a huge challenge, even without the issue of political support for the far right inside the police force”

"Now, only with one phone call saying Golden Dawn is going to pass by, the police is going there. That means the brand name of Golden Dawn is very effective."

He confirms the party's strategy is to force police action against migrants and to claim their right to make citizens' arrests against those they suspect of criminality.

"It's like fashion - our dress code is now extremely popular and more people want to follow it. The brand name is synonymous with order, law and order and efficiency."

And if it projects fear among perfectly legal migrants? I ask.

"There are no legal migrants in Greece," says Mr Panagiotaros "not even one."

Now Golden Dawn is suddenly everywhere. Its eight local offices at election time have become 60 nationwide. It is polling consistently as the third most popular party at 12%.

Its parliamentarians have threatened to "drag migrant children from the kindergartens," and requested a list of the kindergartens with high migrant numbers. This, the Greek education ministry has willingly provided.

Time and again there is a pattern to Golden Dawn disturbances.

They target migrants, the Left, lawyers representing migrants, or in the case of the theatre picket, gay people. And the police stand by.

In Athens police are even alleged to have referred people experiencing problems with migrant neighbours to Golden Dawn for help.

Mr Panagiotaros confirms what opinion polls taken in June indicated: there is support for Golden Dawn inside the police force, way higher than in the general population.

"I think with what they are saying now we have more than 50%, 60% of police staff that are following us - maybe more - every day it is growing," says Mr Panagiotaros.

Many of his customers are police, who buy not just their riot gear but parts of their actual uniform from his militaria store, where police regulation shirts hang alongside T-shirts praising the Nazi group Combat 18 and the Chelsea Headhunters.
Golden Dawn members (R) hand out free food to Greek people after checking their IDs Golden Dawn members gave free food to Greek people after checking their IDs

Policing the Greek crisis would pose a huge challenge, even without the issue of political support for the far right inside the police force.

Anarchists have tried to counter Golden Dawn's patrols in migrant areas by staging their own, motorbike mounted patrols - hundreds strong.

During a motorbike protest last week, a clash with Golden Dawn occurred.

A unit of the motorbike-mounted police called Delta Force arrested 15 demonstrators, stripping them naked in the prison cells and, say the detainees, using tasers, stress positions, humiliation techniques and beatings.

A report of this in the Guardian last week has become a matter of national controversy here, and is strenuously denied by the government.

On 8 October a further 25 protesters were arrested at a demonstration at the courthouse to support those originally detained.

Yiannis, one of those detained, tells the story:

"They searched us, made us strip, kneel. They hit me on the head and knees. They said we know where you all live.

I meet Yiannis and Maria, two of those alleging mistreatment, in a quiet flat in Exarchia, the bohemian district of Athens.

Both will speak only on condition that I change their names, and film them without showing their faces. Though charged eventually with misdemeanours, they were both held for four nights in police custody.

Yiannis continues: "They said: You're finished and things are not going to be the way they were from now on.

"They said they would pass on the video they filmed of us to Golden Dawn. They picked on me to use as an example to the others. They kept making me say to every new detainee: 'if you too disobey they will [hurt] your mother'."

Maria, who has been calm and confident as we have prepared for the interview, now becomes disturbed as she tells her story.

"They made me strip in front of the others," she says.

"The Delta police arrived and spoke about Golden Dawn as if they were their siblings, including the officer in charge. They praised Hitler, saying he was better than Stalin.

"They told us we should remember this - that they are Golden Dawn supporters now."
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The issue driving support for Golden Dawn is clear: illegal migration”

Throughout the ordeal, the arresting officers from the Delta Force, says Maria, continually flaunted their political support for Golden Dawn.

I put the allegations to Lt Col Christos Manouras, the spokesman for the Athens police. He tells me:

"I am categoric that in this incident none of these things happened in the headquarters building of the Attica police. Greek police respect human rights - and this is a non-story."

He adds: "These allegations were never made to the police. No charges were pressed, so the police could look into this from the beginning.

"All the same, if anybody wants to identify themselves - or even if a general allegation reaches us - we will investigate it further. If it involves police, whether racist violence or violence against another person, Greek or migrant, we investigate in depth."

Dimitris Psaras, whose new book, Golden Dawn's Black Bible, details the organisation's recent rise, believes the influence of far right within the police force works at an insidious level:

"There is an osmosis of Golden Dawn supporters, between those working in the police and those in private security as well as those providing night club protection.

"Sometimes the same person can be providing all these three services. They usually meet in local gyms and specific coffee shops owned by those who share the same ideology."

Mr Psaras believes that harsh police treatment of drug offenders and migrants gives a tacit signal to Golden Dawn that its illegal attacks on these groups are welcome.

I repeatedly put the question to Lt Col Manouras as to what strategy the police commanders have adopted to mitigate the risks of individual police support for Golden Dawn compromising operations.

"Every day we make operational plans of how to deal with such phenomena," he says.

"Rest assured we stand by the citizens and we try to prevent such situations.

"Of course we can't be on every corner. We are not magicians, to be able to ensure within two minutes that nothing goes wrong. But we do intervene immediately to normalize the situation."

Growing support

Golden Dawn has gained ground spectacularly in two leaps. First, during the riotous summer of 2011, when the right wing Christian nationalist party Laos disintegrated after it joined the pro-austerity coalition.
“Start Quote

Last month, the Greek prime minister, Antonis Samaras, warned Europe that his country was on the edge of a Weimar Germany-style social collapse”

Laos vanished and Golden Dawn took its place, scoring 6-7% in the inconclusive Greek elections of May and June 2012.

The second spurt is occurring now, as the coalition government - which includes Conservatives, Socialists and the "moderate" Marxists of the Democratic Left party - has failed to put a lid on the crisis.

And the issue driving support for Golden Dawn is clear: illegal migration.

Faced with virtually uncontrollable borders, the coalition government launched a roundup of migrants from the city streets, and has detained around 4,000 in makeshift camps. A further 3,000 have been deported.

A senior lawmaker in the ruling New Democracy party told me, back in June: "What will solve the Golden Dawn problem is getting an immigration policy. We haven't had one."

But the crackdown on immigration has not stopped Golden Dawn's rise. As the media have joined in - relentlessly identifying foreigners with crime - the far right's poll rating has increased.

Theodora Oikonomides, a journalist at the alternative radio network RadioBubble, who has covered the rise of Golden Dawn, voices a fear common to many:

"Golden Dawn's favourite themes, such as xenophobia, homophobia and anti-Semitism have now become part of Greek public discourse, whether at the political or at the social level.

"By failing to take action against Golden Dawn while nodding and winking to its electorate at every opportunity, the Greek politicians - who are now in power with the support of European partners - have opened a Pandora's box that will not close any time soon."
Political war

Last month, the Greek prime minister, Antonis Samaras, warned Europe that his country was on the edge of a Weimar Germany-style social collapse.

What I have seen on the streets of Athens convinces me this is not rhetoric. The situation is changing rapidly.

There is a violent far-right party, its MPs committing and inciting violence with impunity; a police force that cannot or will not prevent Golden Dawn from projecting uniformed force on the streets. And a middle class that feels increasingly powerless to turn the situation round.

When Angela Merkel came here last week, there were violent scenes and a total lockdown of the city. Only from the TV news can the German Chancellor have witnessed the impact of the EU-imposed austerity.

Well here is what it looks like to Golden Dawn's second in command, Ilias Panagiotaros.

In the garden outside his shop, protected by 15-foot high fencing and beefy colleagues in their black T-shirts, he tells me:

"Golden Dawn is at war with the political system and those who represent it, with the domestic and international bankers, we are at war with these invaders - immigrants.

"And if Syriza wins the next election, we will win the one after that. It is not a dream that within one, two or three years we will be the first political party."

And here is how it looks to Laertis Vassiliou, the theatre director whose play was shut down:

"If the European Commissioner for Human Rights, the European Parliament, the Greek parliament don't intervene in this situation I am afraid to think what's going to happen. Europe must do something if they don't want a revival of the Third Reich again."

Close up, in other words, the social and political outcome of the IMF (International Monetary Fund) and EU (European Union) austerity programme, and of the implosion of mainstream politics in Greece, looks like a catastrophe for democracy.

Watch Paul Mason's full report on BBC's Newsnight on Wednesday 17 October 2012 at 2230 BST on BBC Two. Or catch up afterwards on BBC iPlayer.


Follow the link for a video report of this aticle:


Holy Shit...
So will there be an american anarchist contingent in the greek civil war?

Yeah ... this shit is fucking dark. I'm a dedicated troll and there's nothing funny about this.
99% of north-american anarchists would curl up in the fetal position and wet themselves under those circumstances.

You mean the circumstances that we'll find ourselves in in 5 years? You think we're not ready for it?
Is it the fact that despite the post 9-11 fear, anarchists were still willing to tackle the state, even when it became super dangerous? Or was it that even after the fucked up Green Scare anarchists, A.L.F., (but not the E.L.F.?) kept going DESPITE the repression and round ups? Is it even after we quit riding on the coat tails of liberals protests and started making our own, and going at it alone, even in the face of media slander/media blackouts, police repression, more comrades in jail, more bullshit fines and a drain on ourselves emotionally and economically, and derision from all the big wig (and even small) leftist organizations, and we're STILL attacking the state and capitalism, WHILE ALSO fighting white power groups.
Is this why you think we'll curl up in a ball under some new conditions?

Civil War - bring it.

And I wasn't describing a movie, I was in fact describing what we've ALREADY been through. Some would call that real life.

Come trolls, try to make SOME sense.

Love your enthusiasm! *war is sweet to those who've never experienced it*

haha right?! war is always fucking terrible. anarchists will most likely be swiftly annihilated/reduced to clandestine activity.

Not saying that we can't or won't fight. What else can we do but fight? Lets just be real about it.

If you don't have a gun or can't shoot, you aren't ready for a real civil war. If you don't know how to move covertly in many types of terrain, you aren't ready. If you are out of shape and overweight, you aren't ready.

Time is running out. What's happening in Greece comes from externally-imposed austerity, but the rest of us won't be far behind with what's happening to fossil fuel based agriculture and centralized capitalism built on it.

In the US, we can usually fight and defeat white power groups if the cops stay out of it, but that's because of our greater numbers. One on one, we have some who can challenge them to mixed martial arts bouts in their own gyms and see them chump out. On the other hand, while they are in the gym and at the shooting range, entirely too many of us are at vegan barebecues, etc.

We need to talk to the military veterans and deserters within our movements and get fucking serious about training. We do NOT want to have civil war or even a serious collapse thrust upon us, finding us as unprepared as someone in a police raid on their home with no weapons, no shoes or coat in the bedroom, no go bag ready-packed, no escape route planned and ready.

Shit-even the Romans said those who sweat the most in training bleed the least in war. Even if you live someplace you can't keep a gun, learn to shoot them and shoot them well. Learn to run, to blend in, to live off the land, and damned will teach your friends.

Nobody who as seen one civil war will ever want to see another, but most who see one never get a choice in the matter-ask anyone in Libya or Syria.

I've seen a lot of scary shit since 9/11. Saw scary shit before 9/11 too. I've seen riot cops, nazis, been hit with batons, gas spray and looked down the barrels of a few guns. I've been in a squat eviction, seen forest blockades rise and fall, and have seen far too many friends spend long stints in jail. Being a North American anarchist is kinda fuckin' badass...5-10 days a year.

None of this compares to what people in Greece are now facing with the Golden Dawn (or the Greek state). NONE. Don't pretend it does.

It's true that Greek anarchs, aside from their addiction to fire, are pretty much similar to American anarchists.

This article is horrifying.

this shit is fuckin nuts. there's a related video where the golden dawn dude basically says the only way to stop them is for NATO to invade greece.

If a civil war breaks out it wouldn't surprise me to see UN or NATO intervention.

Yeah. especially because anarchists would seemingly be one of the most significant forces in the resistance. It'd be loose loose for capitalism and democracy in that case.

LOL... Golden Dawn ARE tools of NATO!

And they aren't even threatening with their cop regalia... there's even the Greek military against them, adding up to all the commies and anarchists. Just like in Equator ont long ago, in due time, the army's gonna fight and eliminate the Police force, and what's left of these Troika shills will flee to Albania.

I imagine we will soon see (anarchist/leftist) actions against more than Golden Dawn's head quarters. Personally I hope it's really soon, I wasn't a fan of N17 or Revolutionary Struggle's ideologies but at this point the Greeks really need to get some killing done. It is plausible that within 2 or 3 years Golden Dawn could be in power and the biggest possible hindrance to that would be to make people joining the party fear for their lives. Open revolt is needed to show that people don't support them, but without invoking fear things will just continue this way. We really have seen the limits of where street fighting can get us. While it feels wonderful and inclusive to be in a big demo with tons of other people you really can't fight a civil war with bricks and molotovs and expect to win. I seriously hope those folks are well armed.

pfff. material conditions are leading to mass support for fascists? let's assassinate some of their leaders! that'll totally solve the problem.

fight, yes, but this will be won by out-organizing them too. they are using a dual power strategy -- they are providing a model for material support & mutual aid for people in need. anarchists in greece have been doing this, too. i hope they are able to extend it now.

not against what you're saying per se, just saying that ALL the tactics will be necessary in the coming months.

There are plenty of trained killers in the army to handle those living farces. But that doesn't mean the anarchists can't take some initiatives!

And of course, it's always a mistake to underestimate an enemy. I propose to crush them while they are still weak!

They gather in gyms and coffee shops. Now, go!

"Hey, what happened to the electricity?"

The Greek state teeters between oligarchy and tyranny. Plato was correct, in his usual fantastical way, of saying that the transition toward tyranny comes through the famous call for a "bodyguard." There must be a strong armed force to protect "the people's freedom." Plato was wrong, as usual, in creating a smooth, linear transition from the best to the worst forms of government.

Notice that, for most people (even the author of the article) Golden Dawn's membership in the government confers a measure of legitimacy. It certainly has done so in every other modern emergence of tyranny.

Anarchists totally reject governance. Fine. But it will not work in the short run as governments go through transitions. Why? Because in the minds of huge numbers of citizens the government plays an obviously necessary role. It directs resources toward certain politically defined uses and it establishes a legal order. If anarchists don't come up with some notion of the type, role, and objective for government, at least in a transitional phase, you will be condemned to the same results as the anarchists who refused to seize state institutions during the Spanish Civil War. We don't pretend that this is easy. But it is crucial.

In civilized cultures the state is the coordination of multiple groups under a settled body of law and justice. If you want pure anarchy you'll need to revert to primitive culture. Good luck with that "sales pitch." If you want anarchy in civilization you will need to formulate some reasonably clear depiction of the type, role, and functioning of governing institutions.

Perhaps a place to start thinking of this is with education as educational institutions play a crucial formative role in any state and especially modern states. Currently education perverts the child's character through nationalistic brainwashing and stunts character through rote learning. It is no wonder that schools are like businesses with top down, oligarchical organization. There is widespread support for public education and a fair degree of revulsion at edu-bureaucrats who mis-manage declining ed institutions. That is, it is a politically popular target. Anarchistically governed schools may serve as a model in people's minds for other anarchistically governed institutions. But we are all interested to here what "anarchistically governed" actually means.

"No one will doubt that the legislator should direct his attention above all to the education of youth; for the neglect of education does harm to the constitution The citizen should be molded to suit the form of government under which he lives. For each government has a peculiar character which originally formed and which continues to preserve it. The character of democracy creates democracy, and the character of oligarchy creates oligarchy; and always the better the character, the better the government." "Politics," Book VIII

We have tried to make substantive comments here and, so far, received only attacks and abuse. The Greek situation is of special concern to us too. Let's all get a little more serious, please. the A-team

Substantive contributions here will be met mostly with attacks and abuse. Because the internet is full of narcissist assholes, try to ignore the bullshit. Solid people read this site too and they appreciate the real work being done.

A river has a name, a character, a personality; it is liked or disliked as an entity. This is due to a variety of factors: its rapidity or sluggishness, its breadth, depth, length, its form and course, its smoothness, number of islands, and the vegetation and topographical character of its immediate environment. But it flows; from whatever angle you may look, it is never the same for two consecutive seconds. It is just passing water, each ripple, each drop, resembling its predecessor and its successor but never the same ripple or drop.

There is no river. There is no man.

Uhmmm whaaaaaaat?

ok heraclitus

Saying that most people believe and depend on the state is like saying most people believe and depend on capitalism. Its a stupid, idealistic, non-marxist argument. But what can you expect from a bunch of revisionist-maoists.

I think response number two to the A-team's post proved response number one.

Of course most people believe and depend on capitalism. Just as they believe and depend on the state. I think that was Marx's whole point. Beliefs and values reflect the interests of the dominant class. But Marx was, essentially, an economic determinist who thought that the state would eventually wither away with workers in control of economic and political institutions. This depended on a dictatorship of the workers in its initial stage. I think this is where Bakunin and anarchists broke with Marx.

We don't need an entire platform. But it would be nice f there was some general idea of what anarchists have in mind for the governing institutions both in a transitional and final phase of political development. Marx was wrong that economics will determine political outcomes. There are sure to be people who will stick with their religion and their political ideas as well as with their wealth. An anarchistic phase of government needs to have some general form and content so that people who are caught up in the whirlwind of looming tyranny have some confidence in anarchism rather than fascism.

We think Aristotle provides some broad outlines that may be of use to anarchists. Private property for communal use; a clear preponderance of people of modest means who can politically counter those who try to engage in unnatural wealth getting (and cannot bear to be governed) and the chronically wretched and are too benighted to engage in governing); an emphasis on cultivation of happiness in the form of a complete life; a movement toward smaller governing bodies with face to face community relations; and an absolutely vigilant defense of the common good as opposed to private interest whether by one person, rich people, or the poor. the A-team

Communism is not an ideal to be realized: it already exists, not as a society, but as an effort, a task to prepare for. It is the movement which tries to abolish the conditions of life determined by wage-labour, and it will abolish them by revolution. The discussion of communism is not academic. It is not a debate about what will be done tomorrow. It is an integral part of a whole series of immediate and distant tasks, among which discussion is only one aspect, an attempt to achieve theoretical understanding. Inversely, the tasks can be carried out more easily and efficiently if one can answer the question: where are we going?

My power animal is communization...and a panda bear.

Agreed on all points except for a little clarification o communism. Here is how the A-team would define it (prospectively): the government, which operates on a consensus base through representatives of all the self-governed institutions in the society, determines the amounts and types of land or existing productive facilities that individuals and groups can privately own. In doing so the individuals and groups, obviously, have to give some indication of how they intend to use it. They take "ownership" in the sense of an exclusive right to use the "property" to for the purposes intended. They can't sell the property without the government's consent.

The individual or group can dispose of the products of his/their work in these ways: communally, either by allowing those in need to take a minimal amount from what is produced or by sharing or by offering into distribution networks; or privately through barter or for money up to the point that the individual or group is able to meet their own basic needs.

Money is a run-away freight train given that most people want to satisfy unlimited desire rather than live well. So, between education against living badly, a culture against this and governing institutions that can seize property from someone gaining wealth to empower themselves over others and exploit others' needs, private property and communism might come to co-exist.

The flip side is some attempt at total communism, state centralized control; endless rivalries on communalized land or factories about who is actually doing what etc. etc.

"may there not be an advantage in having and using possessions in common? Three cases are possible: (1) the soil may be appropriated, but the produce may be thrown for consumption into the common stock; and this is the practice of some nations. Or (2), the soil may be common, and may be cultivated in common, but the produce divided among individuals for their private use; this is a form of common property which is said to exist among certain barbarians. Or (3), the soil and the produce may be alike common.

When the husbandmen are not the owners, the case will be different and easier to deal with; but when they till the ground for themselves the question of ownership will give a world of trouble. If they do not share equally enjoyments and toils, those who labor much and get little will necessarily complain of those who labor little and receive or consume much. But indeed there is always a difficulty in men living together and having all human relations in common, but especially in their having common property. The partnerships of fellow-travelers are an example to the point; for they generally fall out over everyday matters and quarrel about any trifle which turns up. So with servants: we are most able to take offense at those with whom we most we most frequently come into contact in daily life.

These are only some of the disadvantages which attend the community of property; the present arrangement, if improved as it might be by good customs and laws, would be far better, and would have the advantages of both systems. Property should be in a certain sense common, but, as a general rule, private; for, when everyone has a distinct interest, men will not complain of one another, and they will make more progress, because every one will be attending to his own business. And yet by reason of goodness, and in respect of use, 'Friends,' as the proverb says, 'will have all things common.'" the A-Team

Don't be fooled by the A-team troll... I wouldn't be surprised this is Emile.

See the "criminalization of Protest" story and comments below for a dialogue between Emile and the A-Team. No, this is an honest attempt to do something no one would have thought possible: bridge @narchism and @ristotle. Any thoughtful and constructive responses are appreciated.

You mean like bridging the Mein Kampf with Kropotkin? Errr... no.

Fun's fun, but there's stuff that simply doesn't fit together. Face it.

Aristotle's philosophy is statist, elitist and authoritarian all over the place. Furthermore, the topic is out of place.

And Emile can troll himself too.

I would put it slightly different. The structures and social relations that dominates Peoples every day life also reflects their values and so on, ie people believe in capitalism and the state because thats all they know. And so the point is that it is in movement, ie people changing their lifes and world around them, that people change what they believe is possible (a sociey without money, commodity, work, a state and so on) and most importantly, what they do (communism is after all what you do).

And for the rest? They will be met with organised violence (which doesnt mean a state).

There. Thats the programe.

But this is PRECISELY the problem. People from all walks of life see a statement like this and they immediately dismiss anarchism. You can say "fine, fuck them." But they turn decisively away and then there is far less movement and, in turn, potentially more movement for the forces of fascism that do indeed offer a program.

So, we agree with the first two sentences. But please say more about the third sentence: how do we get to a society without money and how will trade be possible without money? No commodities must mean that everyone owns all the means of production and thus every item and service produced? So, who gets to control which land and infrastructure? Why? Who determines that? What if they don't use it? OK--and, assuming all that, we get there how? "They" whoever they are will be met with organized violence but not by a state.... so, is there any legitimate as opposed to illegitmate mode of violence? How is that to be determined?

Look, you don't owe the A-team any answers. But don't expect for anarchism to get anywhere if this is as comprehensive as the revolutionary plan gets. the A-team

But the point is that they dont have to accept anarchism as an ideology or as an utophian society. Obviously that means nothing to anyone right now. Communism (and therefore anarchism) is a material movement, first against the social relations that holds this society, and later, when it is generalised enough and when enough of this world is destroyed; a new, totally different society. The point is movement, not ideas and utophias. Not right now anyway.

The internal contradictions/conflicts of capital vs. work is what gets people first and foremost moving, not beautiful ideas of an anarchist society, no matter what you read in history books.

We think you are being too categorical (and you probably think we are). We disagree with nothing you have said here. In fact, it is a corrective to what must have seemed an overemphasis on theory and "plan" as opposed to action. In the ongoing struggle, worked out in practice, there will be many circumstances, we believe, in which someone new to this struggle will ask certain theoretical questions and fairly matter of fact questions about future social, economic and political arrangements. If they are at all serious they will not settle for some one sentence simplification of many complex matters. Nor will they accept that we just take care of it when the time comes. This is so if for no other reason than they sense the fascists gaining the upper hand, precisely because they do have a program.

Some fairly consistent, coherent general propositions about politics and the control of governing institutions, economic arrangements, and societal values would be useful in those circumstances. We think Aristotle, strangely enough, has some useful things to say in this regard. That's why we are the A team although perhaps we should call our selves the double A team (Aristotle and Anarchism).

I disagree. It is absolutely useless to talk about alternative ways to structure society unless and until it actually becomes a real possibility to make it real. And we are far far away from that.

In the meantime we need to intentisfy the struggle and make it relevant to peoples life, while at the same time confronting every reactionary element with violence.

You ask hard questions that nobody has been able to answer in the past. If they had, we would have communism right now. Taking over the state may sound like an answer to you now, but it is only because you dont know otherwise. What matters s how we can rebel and destroy the current social relation and build new one. That is the crucial question, not how to manage a new society. It is not the answer. The answer will have to be solved in the struggle. Right now we can only tell you what we are against.

There is no agical key that opens the door to the new society. It is a long, crooked and hard struggle. To think otherwise is naive and idealistic.

*magical key


"Anarchists totally reject governance. Fine. But it will not work in the short run as governments go through transitions. Why? Because in the minds of huge numbers of citizens the government plays an obviously necessary role. It directs resources toward certain politically defined uses and it establishes a legal order. If anarchists don't come up with some notion of the type, role, and objective for government, at least in a transitional phase, you will be condemned to the same results as the anarchists who refused to seize state institutions during the Spanish Civil War. We don't pretend that this is easy. But it is crucial."

States only go through transitions in times of stability, in Eastern Europe the state was pretty much gone, it actually took more material and mental expenditures by the you know-whos to re-build it then simply doing what was done in Madagascar(as Graeber has pointed out).

The state in time will fall, the real A-teams will see to it that a Lenin does not rise like the last time.

"On the one side there will be nationalists like us, and Greeks who want our country to be as it used to be,"


...and when was that? During the few years of the failed Metaxas regime?

That's been, like, followed by years of Greek communists fighting against the Nazis. Riiight.

This just shows how fascists are fucking retards. Feeding off some made up idiocy about Our Great True Old Nation of Fantasyland, where Anders Brevik was the King, or something.

1930 Germany all aver again.

This is almost a replay of how the Nazis rose to power in Germany. In the 1930's we on the Left dropped the ball and did not match the Nazis in the streets beer hall by beer hall, battle by battle BEFORE they could rise to state power. After they took state power it required a global war that reduced most of Europe to cinders to remove them by force, one of the ugliest wars ever.

Every time Golden Dawn engages in this sort of terrorism, they should be paid back in full and in their own coin. Businesses known to support Golden Dawn should in particular be targetted for closure by any means necessary. This is because one of the best ways to defeat fascism is to destroy the support infrastructure it depends on.

Lastly, comparisons of Golden Dawn to Naziism must be introduced into mainstream Greek political discourse. With the history of Nazis invading Greece, this could cripple Golden Dawn and force the fascists to start over from scratch.

Remember, a time of disruption and collapse is an opportunity for both ends of the political spectrum equally. If we are not able to go head to head, fist to fist, no cops against the strongest fascist party in any particular geographic area, we can expect to forfeit that area to the fascists, who will then take state power just like they did when Germany collapsed in the Great Depression. In this kind of war you win or you are murdered by your enemies!

War sucks shit, war means burying your friends, but there are some things that are even worse. One of them is to live as a slave to whoever took power. Another is to have to fight with no hope of victory against fascists who are in power, hoping only to sting them on the way out and that some future generation will overthrow them. With modern technical surveillance, state power could give modern Nazis an overwhelming advantage, one that could only be defeated by invasion from without.

Possibly a fascist Greece would go to war against Turkey, a traditional enemy of Greek nationalists, perhaps over some real or imagined dispute in or around Albania or Serbia. That war would escalate, and you have your invasion from without.

"we on the Left"

Fascism overall did not kill and imprison as much people anarchists onwards as the red shirts dude, and their state practices and movement structure(Agamben) come straight out of hard historical leftism, they also tend to share at least a proportion of the same social base(the proletarian frogs and Novetore would say). A fair amount of their votes comes from diss-effected commie voters.

For reasons of self preservation the best thing 'we on the anarchist side) can do is see leftism and all the plebeian noise it represents out the door.

"And it is well known that when fascism is born, socialism alone is its direct accomplice and responsible father.

Because, if when the nation, if when the state, if when democratic Italy, if when bourgeois society trembled in pain and agony in the knotty and powerful hands of the “proletariat” in revolt, socialism had not basely hindered the tragic deadly hold — losing the lamps of reason in front of its wide-opened eyes — certainly fascism would never even have been born, let alone lived."

Renzo Novetore-a man who saw it come to rise before his very eyes

Ya, I mean fuck the left but are you sure you don't spend too much time in your room just stroking your BBeard, reading, tagging and trying to forget your privileged past and accusations of Manarchy to really know what the fuck is going on? Why don't you quit quoting Renzo and do something real like Loot something for real real

What does me doing anything have to do with what I say on anarchistnews? You know nothing of how I live and what I do which is pertinent to me and not some alienated idea of REAL credibility.

I only celebrate the unity of theory and praxis.

They didn't send as many people to death camps and killing as the commies? Hum... proportionally, they did! And thanks that they were defeated before they got the Bomb, because the Nazis had an ethnic cleansing program for the entire planet.

Where'd you get your History from... a cereal box?

Hitler's militia and Party, based on the freikorps, had origins dating back to WW1. Compared to the Nazis in 1930, Golden Dawn are a college football team.

How strongly is Golden Dawn tied to leftovers from previous military governments in Greece? As for Hitler, his "German Workers Party" that he originally joined as a police informant began as a tiny socialist group that he took over and swung from one end of the spectrum to the other, rather like the Larouches in the US who came out of SDS but supported AIDS quarantine in the 1980's.

There were a large number of small but allied far-right groups in 1920's Germany, it took a long time for the Nazis (National Socialist German Workers Party) to get on top of that morass and absorb all the others.

Yeah a college football team in comparison, sure. Does it mean we should oppose them any less fiercely? Maybe they're not threatening the rest of the world with invasion and takeover but if anything that makes them more dangerous, because it insulates them from one of the surest reasons why they might otherwise be crushed by powerful neighboring powers. They're less-intervention-minded policy makes them more tolerable and thus gives them greater longevity. Meanwhile Greece becomes a nightmare for those actually living there.

Abraham Lincoln brigades had a shitty name but a good enough objective. We gotta figure out how to pay for folks to get over there if it becomes tactically sensible to do so. Might not be worth the trouble but perhaps we could find some old wealthy communists/socialists to scam for fare over to Europe in the general names of combating fascism? Or figure out how to secure funding for "humanitarian observation" etc.?


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