Review of Michael Fischbach, The Movement and the Middle East; How the Arab-Israeli Conflict Divided the American Left

by Wayne Price

A major issue motivating the U.S. left at this time is the Israeli/Palestine war, specifically Israel’s genocidal attack on Gaza. Even the environmental-climate justice movement has been eclipsed for the time. There are other disasters in the world, such as in Sudan or Haiti, but the U.S.—our government—is not directly and immediately supporting the aggressors in those cases, financially, politically, and militarily. It is in Gaza.

It may be useful to compare the present-day conflict with the last period of U.S. radicalization and upheaval—the “sixties” (from the mid-fifties to the mid-seventies). The major issues of that period were Civil Rights/Black liberation and the U.S.-Vietnamese War. These two issues shook the country! There were also other concerns at this time and after, such as the women’s liberation movement, LGBTQ liberation, anti-nuclear power, some labor struggles, etc.

Michael Fischbach is focused on the conflict in that period between Israel and the Palestinian people and the Arabs in general. (There were two significant wars between Israel and Arabs in this period, in 1967 and 1973.) This was never the major issue on the left. But Fischbach maintains that it was a source of constant tension in the left movement, and was at least one of the reasons the movement eventually divided and petered out. It was “a major problem that bedeviled and ultimately weakened the American Left in the 1960s and1970s…which side, Israel or the Palestinians, deserved the support of left wing activists?” (Fischbach 2020; p.3)

Then, as now, a large proportion of the white left was composed of Jews. Just how large is never estimated, although one source is quoted as guessing 30% (1 to 2% of the U.S. is Jewish). To many Jews support for Israel was a part of their self-identity. An attack on Israel felt like an attack on their very selves. They had grown up thinking of Israel as a democratic and even socialist country. Other Jews, radicalized by the Vietnam-U.S. war, felt that Israel was part of the imperialist system. If anything, they felt that Jewish values required support for the underdog and oppressed. “The entire Left would feel the impact of this Jewish ‘civil war’.” (p. 6)

Fischbach’s book is extremely thorough and a bit academic; he rarely expresses his own political views. It is worth reading through to get a complete view of this issue in this period, which prepared the current period. (He briefly quotes two comments by me from an interview.)

Using Fischbach’s data, I would summarize left approaches to the sixties Mid-East conflict mainly into four types:

First, there was a strong tradition of left support for Israel. This was after World War II, when the left had joined in the fight against the anti-semitic Nazis, and after the extent of the Holocaust had been discovered. Israel had been founded, no longer a Zionist dream, and had to be related to, one way or another.

Stalin’s Russia had supported Israel’s establishment and sent arms through Czechoslovakia. This meant that Communist Parties everywhere—including the U.S.—had supported Israel (until the Soviet Union switched to the Arabs). This left a pro-Israel tradition among some Communists.

Finally, Israel had largely been founded by social democrats and even libertarian socialists. They set up an economy dominated by a Jewish union federation as well as building the famous democratic-communist kibbutzim (both being mostly closed to Palestinians). This was before today’s rightist-religious Zionists replaced the social democrats in the government.

In U.S. politics, the corporate rich and the political establishment are pro-Israel because it serves the interests of U.S. imperialism in the region. And there is a layer of wealthy Jews who also identify with Israel out of religious belief and personal loyalty. Among masses of Jewish people there is a belief that support for Israel is a part of their religion or at least their identity. They ignore that almost all religious Jewish trends had rejected Zionism before the Second World War. (So did almost all varieties of Jewish socialists.) Nor do they intend to settle in Israel, which was a central tenet of original Zionism. They insist that to be against Zionism, or even critical of Israel, is to be a Jew-hater. These pro-Israeli views put pressure on leftist Jews to not break with their families, communities, and identities.

Second, the anti-war movement and the Black liberation movement radicalized a great many young people. They came to reject liberalism and reformism. (Most of the Vietnam war was fought by more-or-less liberal Democratic presidents, while support for Civil Rights was at best wishy-washy by those Democratic administrations.) They came to see that the underlying enemy was capitalism, which, on a world scale, was imperialism. They identified with the oppressed peoples, the “wretched of the earth,” against the great powers, especially the U.S. government. Tens of thousands or more young adults, on campus and off, regarded themselves as “revolutionaries.” This frightened the masters of the status quo.

The far-left (to the left of the liberals and “democratic socialists”) was composed of Communists and various sorts of Maoists, Trotskyists, radical pacifists, and independent radicals. Unfortunately (in my opinion) there were few libertarian (autonomous) Marxists or revolutionary anarchists; most anarchists were among the pacifists. Yet these small numbers of extreme leftists had an influence far beyond their size. The passivity of the liberal Democrats and of the union leaders left the field open for more radical forces to play an outside—and essential—role in the anti-war movement in particular.

To many, it seemed obvious that the guerrilla war being waged by the Palestinians against the settler-colonialist state of Israel (which was backed by the U.S.) was another part of the world-wide revolutionary war against imperialism. It was another part of the struggle being waged in Vietnam and in the African-American communities of North America.

The radicals were right to become revolutionary. Unfortunately, their conception of revolution was learned from Ho Chi Minh, Mao Tse Tung, and Fidel Castro. Also from the various Marxist-Leninist and nationalist groupings in the Middle East. What these various approaches to revolution had in common was their authoritarianism. Their goal was to overthrow the existing states and replace them with new ones—one-party dictatorships. None promoted democratic pluralism, decentralist federalism, or workers’ self-management.

Their idea of “socialism” (let alone “communism”) was a completely state-owned and managed economy. This is state-capitalism, and it always turned out to be inefficient, so they expanded market-based methods. They had no concept of worker-managed industries and cooperatives. Similarly, in the U.S. they had little conception of the anti-war movement reaching out to the working class majority, which came to dislike the war but remained alienated from the movement. (Fischbach does not make this criticism.)

Third, there were those then, as there are now, whose focus was getting the two peoples to live together. The Israeli Jews came to Palestine escaping the Holocaust and its aftermath. Whatever the goals of the Zionist leaders, these Jews were now there in Palestine, having become a Hebrew-speaking Israeli Jewish nation. Whatever Muslim fanatics might dream, the Israeli Jews are not leaving Palestine. And whatever Zionists may dream, the Palestinians are also not leaving. After 75 years of Zionist expansion, the Palestinians are still there. So the conclusion is the need for both people to agree to live together in whatever political system they can work out.

On its face this seems reasonable. It is also consistent with the socialist goal of Jewish and Arab workers uniting in self-interest and solidarity across national borders.

The problem is that the original settlement of the Jews, driving out the indigenous Palestinians, is not something in the distant past. It was still going on in the sixties and is still going on today. Right now the Israeli state is refusing to let Palestinian refugees return to their homes from before the war of 1948. Right now the Jewish settlers in the West Bank, with the military backing of the government, are driving Palestinians from their villages, orchards, and farms. And of course, right now the Israeli state is waging a war of extermination against the Palestinians of Gaza.

Palestinians, in their weakness and desperation, have also done things like terrorist bombings of civilians. But it is the Israeli Jews who are the settlers and occupiers; theirs is the guilt for the violence. They have pushed the oppressed to the wall.

Therefore the conflict cannot be treated as between two equal indigenous people. The Israeli Jews must be willing to give up their Zionism, their Jewish-supremacy in a “Jewish state,” in order to live together with the Palestinians. While some Palestinians are committed to a religious, all-Muslim, state in Palestine, most of the people have proven willing to live peacefully with the Jews, if given the chance. So far, they have not been given that chance.

Four, many of the movement’s leaders of the sixties were on the side of the Palestinians. They still did not want to raise that cause in the anti-war demonstrations. It was difficult at best to hold a broad coalition together merely to hold big demonstrations against the Vietnam war. Coalitions were rent by fights over whether to call for Negotiations, or for Immediate Withdrawal (“Out Now!”). Should they focus on building peaceful and legal mass marches? Or on nonviolent civil disobedience? Or on violent clashes with the police? Should Democratic politicians be invited to address the rallies? Or should they be banned? Should the struggle agains racism be a central part of demonstrations?

Anti-war coalitions were formed and broke up. Near the end there were two main groupings which regularly negotiated joint demonstrations. In this context, leaders (who themselves were pro-Palestinian) did not want another issue which might blow up their coalitions. The leaders of one major coalition, the then-Trotskyist Socialist Workers Party, solved the problem by advocating “single issue” demonstrations. That is, the only issue was opposition to the war, and nothing else, not even anti-racism let alone Palestine. The other coalitions tended to just downplay the Palestinian cause.

Even Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., kept quiet about the Mid-East conflicts. He was personally sympathetic to the Palestinians, but he had lost many allies, white and Black, when he came out against the Vietnam-U.S. war. He did not wish to antagonize any more “friends.”

After the Sixties Movement

The “movement” dissolved in the late 1970s, even as other issues continued. These included the women’s movement, which if anything expanded, the anti-nuclear movement and the beginnings of the environmental struggle, the Nuclear Freeze, and efforts against other imperial wars in Central America and elsewhere.

But the main changes were the end of legal segregation in the South and the crushing of Black radicalism in the North by the police. Meanwhile the last U.S. troops left Vietnam in 1973. The leadership of the Black movement and much of the anti-war movement was channelled into the Democratic Party, there to be smothered and absorbed.

As Fischbach explains, with the decline of the anti-Vietnam war movement there was no longer a need to hold back criticism of Israel. This was one thing which permitted an increase in pro-Palestinian activity.

“Seeking Arab-Israeli peace, calling for a Palestinian state, and even holding Israel and the United States accountable for the lion’s share of the problems facing a peaceful resolution of the conflict were becoming mainstream ideas by the mid 1970s….” (p. 176) At least they were becoming mainstream in the broad left and peace movements. This became even more so after the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1983.

But everyone did not feel that way. At a 1985 World Conference on Women in Nairobi, Betty Friedan told an Egyptian feminist, “Please do not bring up Palestine…this is a women’s conference, not a political conference.” (p. 198)

Writing in 2020, Fischbach concluded, “The more open way in which pro-Palestinian viewpoints can be discussed publicly today is a direct result of what transpired in the 1960s and 1970s. Support for the Palestinians has moved into the liberal-left mainstream.” He refers to the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS) movement. “Advocacy of Palestinian rights has become a permanent part of the progressive American political landscape.” (p. 203)

However, “On the other hand, pro-Israeli forces have symbiotically become more organized and more powerful over the decades in their attempts to combat pro-Palestinian perspectives at colleges and universities.” (p. 203)

This is where matters stood when the Palestinian forces of Hamas and others crossed into Israel on Oct 7, 2023—followed by Israel’s massive assault on Gaza.

There was a major pro-Palestinian reaction among the youth on university campuses. They correctly put the attack by Hamas in the context of Israel’s violent occupation of Palestine and its displacement of the indigenous Arabs. Their solidarity with the oppressed Palestinians was noble and generous.

In the words of Judith Butler, “To be in solidarity with Palestine is not necessarily to agree with all the military actions of Hamas, but it is to stand with the people who are being targeted in a genocidal manner.” (Goodman 2023)

The protests do not identify with Hamas or other reactionary forces. Primarily they are supporting the Palestinians against the Zionist assault, and calling for an “immediate, permanent, ceasefire.” But the authoritarian tradition of the revolutionary left has left an unfortunate effect in not explicitly declaring for a radically-democratic, cooperative, pluralistic, society in Palestine—not Hamas’ goal. This would not counter the principle of national self-determination: it is up to the Palestinians to decide what sort of political, economic, and social arrangement they want. But that does not limit what U.S. protesters may say.

The Palestinian forces were justified in smashing through the militarized border and in attacking Israeli military camps and targets—even in taking over kibbutzim. Any oppressed nation would be justified in taking such actions. But the killing and kidnapping of unarmed and nonresistant civilians (even children) were atrocities and war crimes, which should be condemned. Excusing or even ignoring such actions is what led to support for Stalinism in past movements.

The right-wing attack on the pro-Palestinian demonstrations has been massive and vicious. Reactionary Republicans who cooperate with U.S. Nazis and white supremacists suddenly appeared as champions of the Jews. Jewish donors to universities denounced free speech when used by pro-Palestinians. Learned rabbis declared that without Israel there is no Judaism. Liberal university administrators wilted under the pressure. Showing utter spinelessness, they have denied free speech to the most nonviolent of protests, denied graduation to demonstrators, and called in the cops.

There has been a rise in Jew-hatred in our country (as well as in Islamaphobia). Some is apolitical. Most is on the right. But there is some on the left, which must be condemned. But the claim of the Zionists that anti-Zionism (or even criticism of Israel) is in itself anti-semitism, is a lie. One of the best refutations of this lie has been the relatively large participation of Jews in the pro-Palestinian movement. Many declare that Jewish ethics require their standing with the oppressed and exploited. (As a humanist Jew myself, I am proud of these activists.)

As I write, the U.S. is some months away from a presidential election.The election is remarkably irrelevant to the Gazan war. Democrats Joseph Biden and Kamala Harris backed Israel from the beginning and are still pouring military and financial aid into that state. They say they would prefer for the Israeli state to modulate its aggression, and even call for a ceasefire. But they do not put full U.S. leverage behind this preference. In this area as in every one, the Republican Donald Trump is no better and possibly worse. He is also committed to support of Israel as well as the Arab dictatorships.

The present crisis in the Mid-East and in the U.S. left is a continuation of the crisis of the sixties, which is well explained by Michael Fischbach. Some temporary agreement may be cobbled together to pause the killing and give some benefits to the Palestinians. That might be better than the war. But there will be no end to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict so long as capitalism and its states continue to dominate the Mid-East and the world.

References

Fischbach, Michael R. (2020). The Movement and the Middle East; How the Arab-Israeli Conflict Divided the American Left.
Stanford CA: Stanford University Press.

Goodman, Amy (8/26/2023). “Judith Butler on Hamas, Israel’s Collective Punishment of Gaza & Why Biden Must Push for Ceasefire.” Democracy Now! https://www.democracynow.org/2023/10/26/judith_butler_on_hamas_israels_…

*written for Anarcho-Syndicalist Review

Comments

anon (not verified) Thu, 09/26/2024 - 17:48

The US is not directly supporting violence in Haiti???? Wayne is it possible for you to write two sentences in a row without showing your whole ignorant @$$?

Wayne Price (not verified) Fri, 09/27/2024 - 14:19

In reply to by anon (not verified)

Not the way it is in Israel/Gaza/Palestine. If you find someone in Haiti dropping US-supplied 2000 lb bombs, please let us know. However I was not defending US policies in Haiti but pointing out the direct, major, violence of the US in Palestine.

In any case, what do you think about the main topics of the review (as opposed to one peripheral remark)?

mynameismyname (not verified) Fri, 09/27/2024 - 18:14

In reply to by Wayne Price (not verified)

Isn't your argument for why the US isn't involved in imperialism in Ukraine that there aren't troops on the ground (aside from US troops training Ukrainian soldiers in various locales), just weapons being sent? Your argument regarding Israel looks the opposite, that the US is involved because it's sending weapons. Or it just about how many pounds? You've also said it doesn't matter that Ukraine is using Israeli weapons. So why does it matter that Israel is using US weapons? You've said it doesn't matter that you're an American as far as your stance on Ukraine using US weapons. So again, why would it matter if Israel is using US weapons? If Israel is helping Ukraine and the US is helping Israel and Ukraine, aren't they anti-imperialist regarding Russia and don't the Palestinians not matter in your view?

anon (not verified) Sat, 09/28/2024 - 05:18

In reply to by mynameismyname (not verified)

(and appears to be, since i have seen similar arguments from him) is inconsistent: the U.S. supports both those countries with weapons for the exact same reason, and even though there is a somewhat altruistic motive for using tax money to send food to African countries and people on the gaza strip, the reason the U.S. does that is similar: in all these places, they want to have a strategic foothold, or in other words, a presence..

The difference between israel and ukraine is the first is more or less an invader, the second an invaded territory. However, the U.S. sends them both weapons for the same reasons...

Wayne Price (not verified) Sat, 09/28/2024 - 16:00

In reply to by mynameismyname (not verified)

Mynameismyname mistakes my views. I do not deny that the US imperial state acts in Ukraine, Israel, and everywhere else for its imperialist reasons. That is what it is and why it does things. But I think that the *Ukrainians* are not fighting the Russian imperialists due to either Ukrainian or US imperialism. The Ukrainians are fighting to preserve their land, their culture, their people, from Russian domination. This is also why *they* take arms and other aid from the US state--in defense from the Russian army. I am in solidarity with the Ukrainian people, not because they get aid from the US state but in spite of their getting this aid.

On the other hand, the main issue in Israel/Palestine is the colonial domination and expulsion of the Palestinian people by the Zionist state. That state is also mightily aided by US imperialism (again, for its own reasons, not out of love for Jews). I support the Palestinians, even though they get arms from the regional sub-imperialism of Iran.

anon (not verified) Sun, 09/29/2024 - 13:35

In reply to by Wayne Price (not verified)

“The Ukrainians are fighting to preserve their land, their culture, their people,” their blood, their soil…

Gee, the guy who supports bourgeois nationalism and proxy US imperialism in Ukraine also supports bourgeois nationalism and proxy Iranian imperialism in Palestine. How very anarchist, socialist, and not at all campist! It turns out “anarcho-socialism” is mostly all about “solidarity” with selected capitalistic nationalisms.

Wayne Price (not verified) Sun, 09/29/2024 - 15:32

In reply to by anon (not verified)

I do not support "bourgeois nationalism" as you charge. But like Bakunin, Malatesta, and many other anarchists, I support the autonomy and self-determination of peoples (call them nations, countries, ethnicities, communities, or whatever). Consider Bakunin, co-founder of revolutionary anarchism.

Bakunin distinguished between the “homeland” and the “state.” It was natural for people to love their homeland, which meant their geography, their culture, their language, and their historical struggles for freedom. But “political patriotism,” he felt, was an artificial, abstract, emotion whipped up by a ruling class in order to support the state. Bakunin opposed states but defended the right of all peoples to their homelands. “I feel, frankly and always, the patriot of all the oppressed homelands.” (p. 407)

He declared, “Every people, weak or strong, every nation, large or small, every province, every commune has the absolute right to be free, autonomous, to live and govern themselves according to their particular interests.” (p. 407) This is anarchism.

anon (not verified) Sun, 09/29/2024 - 18:20

In reply to by Wayne Price (not verified)

Yes, well, that's clearly not the case with Ukraine, which is definitely led by bourgeois nationalism since 2014, now enforced by a brutal police state.

Same can even be said of Palestine, a wannabe nation-state controlled by a few fascist, patriacal organizations that also have been profting from the massive aid from Western countries to enrich themselves and get weaponry that even Daesh could not have access to.

Now let's talk a bit more of Bougainville, which is inherentlt a great model of self-determination struggle, especially for how there's zero foreign backing and instrumentalization.

But Waybe seems to be one of those who still believe that imperialist states like the US or Russia won't backing The Oppressed with any self-interest in mind. Do states ever really give shit away for free, or for "freedum"?

As even the dole has a *Raison d'État*...

GiggyMantis Mon, 09/30/2024 - 10:21

In reply to by anon (not verified)

Ah yes, it is just so anarchist to criticize Palestine for being "run by fascists" while praising Bougainville as an example of self-determination. Bougainville did not take their self-determination, they were granted it by Papua New Guinea. Groups in Palestine are seizing their self-determination from their colonizers and you are disparaging them online. This commenter should be truly ashamed. Anti-imperialism means support of all indigenous groups for their right to self-determination FIRST, and then arguing about how they should rule among themselves. Given that you're on a website that at least claims to be anarchist, I would recommend thinking about this.

Tim Declercq (not verified) Sun, 09/29/2024 - 22:55

In reply to by Wayne Price (not verified)

Then why shouldn't the same apply to the Donbass people? You're not even being consistent with your own principles. Will you ever get around to answering this point? At least the anarchists who have a more nuanced understanding of the regional differences in the territory, instead of just throwing everything together under a uniform non-existing "Ukrainian people", tend to understand that the so-called "authorities" of the DNR & LNR do not actually fight for the interests of the population there, even though the underlying desire of the Donbass people for cultural autonomy against forced Ukrainization is no less genuine than the same desire of the people of the North-West which you so champion.

Tim Declercq (not verified) Mon, 09/30/2024 - 17:59

In reply to by Tim Declercq (not verified)

"Will you ever get around to answering this point?"

So I guess that's a no then. Why should anyone take you seriously, Wayne, when it's obvious by now that you simply choose to ignore the numerous holes that are exposed in your position and rather just repeat it ad nauseam instead?

anon (not verified) Mon, 09/30/2024 - 18:42

In reply to by Tim Declercq (not verified)

I asked UkWayne about the Referendum Paradox a while back and still waiting for a reply... so welcome to the club. Something something his thick skulled brain can't compute, I guess. How to really gauge "the People's will" has always been a problem inherent to democratic systems, that almost reveals their hollowness.

Tim Declercq (not verified) Mon, 09/30/2024 - 23:36

In reply to by anon (not verified)

It's not so much about gauging "the People's will" but about Wayne's imaginary conception of a homogenous "Ukrainian people." A good example is the Maidan, opinion polls at the time showed that in places like Lviv about 80% were in favour and 20% opposed, whereas in Donetsk the literal opposite was true with 80% opposed and 20% in favour. But to Wayne the whole region is just inhabited by a homogenous "Ukrainian people."

When we add to that the military attack by Kiev on the rebellious Eastern provinces, and the imposition of language laws banning the use of Russian whereas the vast majority of the South-East speaks Russian, it should be clear that Wayne's "Ukrainian people" are just a figment of his imagination. It's like if the Spanish government decides to ban Catalan, send tanks into Catalonia to repress dissent over this, and then Wayne coming out to awe over this beautiful display of the "struggle for self-determination of the Spanish people." It really is that bonkers.

anon (not verified) Tue, 10/01/2024 - 21:26

In reply to by Tim Declercq (not verified)

Well yes, but even "Spain" as made-up national identity is older than Ukraine, despite not being any more significant. It's really just a political position or view, up against the big bogeyman of Russia.

As liberal interpretation of a saying by Sun Tsu, war is the foundation of all states. Interpret Malatesta the wrong way and you end up fighting and dying in such wars. That is where anarchy and pacifism (as the rejection of war, but not necessarily of violence) intersect quite clearly.

mynameismyname (not verified) Mon, 09/30/2024 - 13:31

In reply to by Wayne Price (not verified)

Your first problem is that you conflate the Ukrainian people ("the Ukrainians") with the Ukrainian state and miss that anarchists support self-determination for the former but not the latter, anarchists do not support the right of any state to receive arms from any other state, they support peoples in their struggle for freedom from state oppression (and by extension from the oppression of settler-colonist civilians), or at least should. It is not the Ukrainian people getting weapons or aid from the US but the Ukrainian state. Your second problem is that you don't oppose the militarism and imperialism of your own state consistently, you make an exception for Ukraine, even though US support for it is connected to support for Israel (and as Ukraine and Israel return the favor by abstaining from or opposing resolutions on Cuba and Palestine at the UN, claiming rights for their own states while they fail to take a stand for the same right for other states or nations). You don't need to prioritise opposing the Ukrainian state, since you're not in Ukraine, but the same excuse doesn't apply to US imperialism. You claimed in your article for Kontradikce that since the Russian invasion, "the main issue has been the self-determination of the Ukrainian people", however anarchists don't support national self-determination for only one people, let alone one state, the Ukrainian one. They should also support national self-determination for peoples whose territories are occupied by the US and by states the US supports, like Israel. Anarchists cannot be consistent with their principles if they support the supposed rights of the Ukrainian state above those of all peoples on earth, because this comes at the expense of the self-determination of the Palestinian people and peoples within the US, and all other peoples. You are not for self-determination as a principle in this case, you're only for the rights of the Ukrainian state. This is precisely one of the main differences between nationalism and national liberation, and why anarchists oppose the former and support the latter.

Brain Lice (not verified) Mon, 09/30/2024 - 13:52

In reply to by mynameismyname (not verified)

mynameismyname accuses Wayne of "conflat[ing] the Ukrainian people ("the Ukrainians") with the Ukrainian state". Well let me ask you this, mynameismyname: who do you think makes up the Ukrainian state? Answer: the Ukrainian People! Gotem. Checkmate. Go directly to gulag. Do not pass go.
You would have know this if you paid attention to the lessons of the immortal science of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism. We the People Are the Party!
Send more bombs for the Peoples' War of self-determination, comrade. Thank you.
Wayne

mynameismyname (not verified) Mon, 09/30/2024 - 16:09

In reply to by Brain Lice (not verified)

Your first problem is that Brain Lice is not just a clever name for you. Your second problem is that although the Ukrainian state is staffed by Ukrainian people and couldn't exist without the Ukrainian people (or without other states for that matter), it still isn't the same thing as the Ukrainian people. Which is also why the Ukrainian state has to socially reproduce its version of the Ukrainian "nation" within the framework of its nation-state. It's very simple to understand once you delouse. Highly recommended and you're welcome.

Wayne Price (not verified) Mon, 09/30/2024 - 17:14

In reply to by mynameismyname (not verified)

Of course I am not "Brain Lice." I do agree with the post by GiggyMantis.

And of course the Ukrainian people are not the same as the Ukrainian state, which rules them in the interest of the Ukrainian capitalist class. But--and this is the point--at this time the Ukrainian people are supportive of their state and the capitalist system (even if they resist specific things done by the state or the capitalists). They are resisting the Russian imperialist invasion through support of the state and its army. This *is* their self-determination (which includes the right to be wrong, or to make choices we don't agree with). We would prefer that it was possible to organize a militia or guerrilla army with anarchist politics, but the real alternatives (right now) are to critically support the military struggle (without giving political support to the government) or to be passive. Anarchists, in the Ukraine as in the US, still raise our goal of a popular anti-statist, revolution, but that is not immediately possible.

Tim Declercq (not verified) Mon, 09/30/2024 - 18:28

In reply to by Wayne Price (not verified)

"This *is* their self-determination"

A "self-determination" that consists of...fighting against another people's self-determination. Remember that this war did not start by a Russian invasion of Ukraine but by a Ukrainian invasion of the insurgent Donbass back in 2014. The very first military action that set off this war was Kiev's army invading the rebellious Eastern provinces who were demanding autonomy and self-government. Indeed, the very first heavy military equipment that the insurgents had at their disposal was captured equipment from the invading Kiev army, in particular an APC in Mariupol (see for example timestamp 6:55 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlSzewPMhD4).

So did you support the Donbass people's fight for self-determination back in 2014, or is your support for the self-determination of a people contingent on them being in favour of NATO and you reject it for those who rather choose to keep their distance from NATO? And, unlike the Ukrainian State which had an army at its disposal armed to the teeth by NATO to answer Russia's 2022 invasion, the Donbass people started from nothing. They got their guns by raiding police stations and their heavy military equipment by capturing it from the attacking Kiev army.

mynameismyname (not verified) Tue, 10/01/2024 - 09:00

In reply to by Tim Declercq (not verified)

Wayne already answered your question here:

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/wayne-price-a-talk-on-the-ukrai…

Where he states, "To which some replied, that therefore the people of the eastern Ukraine, the Donbas, were a nation or nations because they had voted for their own republics merged into Russia. I would agree, except that the drive for their 'national separation' was so clearly a Russian put-up job (with Russian soldiers everywhere). Indeed the whole movement for Donbas secession was organized since 2014 by Russian and pro-Russian agents."

As if there aren't Ukrainian soldiers everywhere on the Ukrainian side and as if those soldiers (including the anarchist ones) aren't part of the state, as if the "whole movement" of the Ukrainian war against Russia and the Donbas isn't organized by the Ukrainian state. Wayne clearly does not support self-determination for peoples but the wars of Western states against oppressed peoples. He does not even oppose Israel's supplying of weapons to Ukraine (or the US using its ammo cache in Israel to arm Ukraine, with South Korea then helping resupply the US) in the face of its genocide and escalating wars on neighbouring peoples and countries. All peoples must die so that the Ukrainian state can live (apparently)!

Or in your case, all peoples are imaginary (even pre-nation-state ones) because nation-states came into existence at some point in history and socially reproduce them, or what?

Tim Declercq (not verified) Tue, 10/01/2024 - 12:17

In reply to by mynameismyname (not verified)

Quoting Wayne: "I would agree, except that the drive for their 'national separation' was so clearly a Russian put-up job (with Russian soldiers everywhere). Indeed the whole movement for Donbas secession was organized since 2014 by Russian and pro-Russian agents"

What a load of bollocks. The vast, vast majority of the people involved were locals, it was a movement with deep roots in the popular and working-class strata of Donbass. This movement was an organic response to the Maidan events in Kiev (which was widely rejected in Donbass) which grew into a wide insurrection in response to the actions by the post-Maidan regime in Kiev, in particular their choice to send the army in to suppress it, with the Odessa trade union fire being the proverbial point of no return.

The insurrection grew from pretty much nothing, they first got their guns by raiding police stations, and their first heavy military equipment by capturing it from the Kiev army that was sent to repress them as well as from defections by Ukrainian soldiers. The Russian army only got involved around August 2014.

"Or in your case, all peoples are imaginary (even pre-nation-state ones) because nation-states came into existence at some point in history and socially reproduce them, or what?"

To me, peoples are a concept to homogenize populations as if they all have the same interests. In particular it is a concept to plaster over and hide the class distinctions of society. Maybe you can argue that in early pre-history it served a different role, and maybe you'd be right, but I'm talking about the concept as it exists right now.

Tim Declercq (not verified) Tue, 10/01/2024 - 12:42

In reply to by mynameismyname (not verified)

Quoting Wayne: "they had voted for their own republics merged into Russia"

No they didn't vote to be merged into Russia. The question on the referendum ballots of 11 May 2014 was "Do you accept the Declaration of Sovereignty of the Donetsk People's Republic?" with the possible answers of "Yes" and "No". The Declaration of Sovereignty of the DNR was a document proclaimed on 7 April 2014 in the occupied Donetsk RSA (town hall). Here is the full text of this document: https://rpw.ru/nr/Dekl.html As you can see, the document proclaims an independent state, it says nothing whatsoever about being merged into Russia. I suspect Wayne is talking about these things without ever having bothered actually reading the documents.

If you read the document in question you might also understand why so many anarchists (such as in Greece and Italy, including myself at the time) were supportive of this: article 4 explicitly bans the appropriation of surplus value in the republic. That is, the document wasn't only a separatist creation of a new state, but of an explicitly socialist state with an outright ban on the appropriation of surplus value. Now obviously none of this actually came to pass, in no small part because of the actions of the Russian state intervening in these processes to defend the interests of the Russian bourgeoisie, but for a few months (from around April to around September 2014, when the raid on the Donetsk Soviet fully suppressed any remaining socialist leanings) quite a few anarchists were supportive of these events.

Wayne Price (not verified) Tue, 10/01/2024 - 15:34

In reply to by mynameismyname (not verified)

Mynameismyname declaims, "Wayne clearly does not support self-determination for peoples but the wars of Western states against oppressed peoples." "Clearly," it is said.

So why do I support the Palestinians and other Arabs against Israel and its U.S. imperial backer? Why am I for Puerto Rican independence? Why am I opposed to US intervention in Haiti? Why did I oppose US wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? Why (in my youth) did I do all I could, over many years, to oppose the evil US war in Vietnam?

You may criticize my opinions (I could be wrong), but do not lie about what they are.

mynameismyname (not verified) Wed, 10/02/2024 - 11:59

In reply to by Wayne Price (not verified)

Wayne please try a little harder to follow along, this isn't that complicated, and I have no need to lie about your views like you do about Malatesta's (I disagree with your stance in favor of telling lies when it suits you) but I never said that you don't say that you "support Palestinians and other Arabs against Israel and its U.S. imperial backer." I referred to the fact that you don't oppose Israeli or American arming of Ukraine. So you can say you oppose American and Israeli imperialism all you want, this won't change the fact that in practice, your stance is in favor of American and Israeli imperialism.

We could go even further. You say that the Ukrainian state has the right to be armed by anyone (as an aside, indicating that you fundamentally disagree with anarchism). Which would include France, which is also arming Russia indirectly and attacking Kanaky. So your stance in favor of the Ukrainian state being armed at all costs actually comes at the cost of Ukrainians and Kanaks as well, due to the actions France. So we see that you are in real terms not only in favor of American, Israeli and French imperialism and colonialism but you are not even against these when it harms Ukrainians.

From the looks of it, so long as the Ukrainian state maintains its territorial integrity, the Western democracies stay in power and the profits keep flowing, their militarism and imperialism is all gravy as far as you're concerned (which incidentally indicates why you lied by omission about Malatesta's real views on militarism and participation in state armies in your review of Volume V of his Complete Works published by AK Press, since they're an inconvenient truth for you personally, if you'll pardon the reference).

Wayne Price (not verified) Wed, 10/02/2024 - 15:06

In reply to by mynameismyname (not verified)

Let me repeat. What Mynameismyname wrote was: "Wayne clearly does not support self-determination for peoples but the wars of Western states against oppressed peoples." I have demonstrated that this is a lie, that I support and have supported wars of oppressed peoples against Western imperialisms.

Instead of acknowledging this, Myname raises another issue, that I "don't oppose Israeli or American arming of Ukraine." I would rather say, I don't oppose Ukrainians getting arms from Israel or US imperialism. Right now "Ukraine" means the Ukrainian state, but this would be true even if there were a non-state federated Ukrainian Workers' Commune. It would still need arms; it could produce some and seize others, but (unless there is also an African Federated Commune) it would still be wise to accept arms from Western imperialists (who would be acting according to their own imperialist interests, so they couldn't be trusted).

For example, during the Cold War, the state-capitalist/imperialist Soviet Union gave arms to various countries rebelling against Western imperialists (in Africa, Asia, and Latin America). As much as revolutionary anarchists opposed the Soviet Union (and the nationalist leaders of those oppressed countries), we never criticized the rebelling countries for taking arms from imperialist Russia. This was particularly true during the Vietnam-US war when North Vietnam relied on Russian arms shipments.

mynameismyname (not verified) Wed, 10/02/2024 - 17:06

In reply to by Wayne Price (not verified)

You haven't demonstrated anything by simply claiming that you "supported wars of oppressed peoples against Western imperialisms." Your actual line of thought and argumentation means you support the imperialism of America, Israel and NATO countries. It doesn't matter that you "would rather say, I don't oppose Ukrainians getting arms from Israel or US imperialism," because in reality, this means you support your own state arming Ukraine, which means you support American and Israeli imperialism (the US used an ammo cache in Israel to arm Ukraine, among other things). Since you're not in charge of the American state (to my knowledge) you don't get to simply choose that its army and weapons industry not be imperialist when you want it that way and then be imperialist when it's convenient for you. It's all the same system. You yourself just admitted that you support the Ukrainian state being armed, which means you shouldn't be posting on anarchist sites, since you're against anarchism and in favor of a particular state. Your deflection about Vietnam and Russia doesn't help, since you're an American. The primary matter is whether you oppose American imperialism and militarism (that of your own state) not whether you oppose the actions of groups or states targeted by America. The secondary matter is that as a self-proclaimed anarchist, you have no business making exceptions for the Ukrainian state and its western ally states. The third matter is that you have no defense for how you misportray Malatesta's views. If you love lying for personal clout, you're better off going back to Marxism or moving forward within capitalism rather than anarchism.

mynameismyname (not verified) Tue, 10/01/2024 - 09:44

In reply to by Tim Declercq (not verified)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did Russia not invade Crimea in late February of 2014, prior to Ukrainian state forces attacking the Donbas in April of that year? Wayne is wrong to define self-determination as the actions of states, and we need not care for the territorial integrity of the Ukrainian state (and obviously there was a prelude to the actual invasion), but let's try to be historically accurate.

Let's remember also that NATO forces went to Ukraine in 2015 to start training Ukrainian soldiers. Let's remember that in 2022, with the Russian escalation, news reports were confirming the Ukrainian forces' use of Israel weapons (MATADORs field-tested on Gazans and made by Rafael and its German subsidiary DND, and Tavors made or licensed by IWI), even if Field Marshal Wayne would rather we forgot.

Wayne once spuriously claimed, "What light do Malatesta’s views cast on the Ukrainian war? Certainly he would oppose an inter-imperialist war between Russia and the U.S.A. and its NATO allies—if it ever got to that—just as he denounced World War I. The war between the Russian state and the people of Ukraine is another matter. Russia is an imperialist aggressor. Ukraine is a weak, poor, and non-imperialist country."

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/wayne-price-malatesta-on-war-an…

Which ignores that NATO was in Ukraine already in 2015, as I mentioned above (and which also ignores Malatesta and Kropotkin's views on the Greco-Turkish War of 1897, and Malatesta's views on militarism and imperialism in general). And that Ukraine took part in the occupation of Iraq and sent weapons to Myanmar.

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/errico-malatesta-pro-candia

Wayne looks to me like what the IWW used to call a "grafter", someone who exploits oppression itself (or particular instances of it) for his own personal benefit (exceedingly meager in this case).

anon (not verified) Tue, 10/01/2024 - 11:04

In reply to by mynameismyname (not verified)

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but did Russia not invade Crimea in late February of 2014, prior to Ukrainian state forces attacking the Donbas in April of that year?"

Yes, so Russia *already* has had troops on the peninsula along with military bases, especially its well-know naval bases. I can see some poorly-informed minds might drink the Kool Aid that Russia's presence in Crimea only dated from 2014, but nope. Its presence in Crimea is comparable to the US presence in Gitmo.

Russian Army furthermore had an accord with Ukraine dating from the late '90s, where they retained a right of way for its troops to/fro Crimea. The Russian invasion has occured in 2022.

Tim Declercq (not verified) Tue, 10/01/2024 - 13:04

In reply to by anon (not verified)

The Russian invasion, defined as Russian army units crossing the border from Russia into Ukraine, first happened in August 2014. This coincidentally also spelled the end of independent and socialist politics in the DNR and LNR. In September 2014 a military attack happened against the Donetsk Supreme Soviet which purged it of delegates who refused to serve the new Moscow curators, and in the subsequent months many militia members of the first hour were thrown in prison for the same reason (many remain rotting in prison to this very day) The Supreme Soviet of the DNR itself would then be forcibly disbanded about 2 months later and replaced with a different institution (the People's Soviet of the DNR) which was more pliable to Moscow.

anon (not verified) Thu, 10/03/2024 - 17:52

In reply to by Tim Declercq (not verified)

I got trouble finding sources about the attack on the Supreme Soviet of DNR and its replacement by the People's Council. Where didja get that? September 2014 was when the first Minsk accords happened.

Tim Declercq (not verified) Thu, 10/03/2024 - 21:35

In reply to by anon (not verified)

For example chapter 8 of the book "Flames will burn from Donetsk" by Alexander Vaskovsky discusses this (Alexander was one of the delegates of the Supreme Soviet of the DNR who was present at the events in question). You can find it in pdf on his VK page: https://vk.com/wall86707576_3297 (the first few chapters of the book aren't exactly what I'd call of high theoretical level as it tries to provide a historical background which tends to move into a rather conspirational view of history, but chapters 8 and 9 in particular are more factual in discussing actual events in Donbass at the time). Or just go and talk to Alexander or other people there from the strike movement, this is the age of the internet, it's easy enough to just talk to people even halfway across the globe - it's what I did.

Tim Declercq (not verified) Tue, 10/01/2024 - 11:52

In reply to by mynameismyname (not verified)

Yes it is true that Russian troops took over Crimea already in February 2014 (although as the other commenter here says, those troops were already stationed in Crimea) but this happened without any shots being fired or anything, it was bloodless. When I said "the very first military action" I meant military action that had actual fighting with people being killed and all, and the very first time this happened was with Kiev's attack on Donbass in April 2014.

Wayne Price (not verified) Tue, 10/01/2024 - 15:14

In reply to by Tim Declercq (not verified)

If you-all could convince me that the Eastern Ukraine really had a popular, bottom-up, rebellion, seeking independence, then I would join you in advocating independence and self-determination for the Donbas. That is, to me it is a factual question, not one of principle.

In any case, this would not justify Russian imperialist forces trying to invade and occupy the *rest* of Ukraine, which still would have its own right to self-determination. And, as commenters have explained, any democratic, popular, element in the Donbas has long since been overwhelmed by the Russian forces.

mynameismyname (not verified) Tue, 10/01/2024 - 16:26

In reply to by Wayne Price (not verified)

How were you convinced there was/is a "popular, bottom-up, rebellion, seeking independence" in the rest of Ukraine? Self-delusion? Might also explain why you conflate the Ukrainian people with the state and pretend that the army isn't part of the state (claiming anarchists in the army aren't supporting the government even though they serve in an armed branch of that government, not just supporting the government but acting as part of it)

Tim Declercq (not verified) Tue, 10/01/2024 - 16:45

In reply to by Wayne Price (not verified)

"I would join you in advocating independence and self-determination for the Donbas"

I do not advocate the independence and self-determination for the Donbass. I was merely bringing it up to show the issue in your position, that is, I was using your own reasoning to demonstrate the inconsistency in your position. What I advocate is a change in the socio-economic system away from capitalism, and obviously the so-called "authorities" of the DNR and LNR are no means to achieve such goal. While I did initially support the events surrounding the creation of the DNR and LNR, as I explained that was only contingent on the possibility of the creation of a socialist society, and such possibility only lasted mere months until the Russian State effectively bludgeoned it out of existence. Right now I advocate for desertion from the armies and common class struggle of the proletariat of Russia, Ukraine, as well as the Donbass republics - a position which, btw, is also shared by some of the people who were delegates in the original Donetsk Soviet before being purged in September 2014.

As for convincing you that a popular rebellion took place in the Donbass in early 2014, what exactly do you want? The massive demonstrations that took place, the strikes in the mines, the long queues for the referendum and for joining the militia, etc? If you want precise details I suggest you go talk to Sergey Kuts, one of the original delegates of the Donetsk Soviet who got purged, and later on got kidnapped and tortured by the MGB for his involvement in (quite exemplary) strikes in the mines a few years later. You can find him on Telegram in the chat of the Donetsk Miners Union: https://t.me/Alexander_Vaskovsky/661?comment=6094 (or just ask around in general there, plenty of people who I'm sure would be happy to tell you all about it)

Tim Declercq (not verified) Tue, 10/01/2024 - 23:09

In reply to by Wayne Price (not verified)

"this would not justify Russian imperialist forces trying to invade and occupy the *rest* of Ukraine"

It doesn't even justify Russia taking Donbass either, which it just uses for cheap cannon fodder anyway. There's a saying that's quite common in Donbass: "Banderites in the front, Vlasovites in the rear." Cannon fodder for Moscow and untermenschen for Kiev... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln7Vn_WKkWU

Wayne Price (not verified) Thu, 10/03/2024 - 14:29

In reply to by mynameismyname (not verified)

Myname writes, "Wayne is wrong to define self-determination as the actions of states, " I wonder where I defined self-determination as the action of states instead of peoples (nations). What matters to me, first and foremost, is the actions and views of peoples and their working classes. In this case the Ukrainian people, and only secondly do I analyze the roles of states and empires.

Myname says I (deliberately!) lie about Malatesta's views on national liberation. But, in the piece which is cited, Malatesta wrote, "The Greeks refuse to be ruled by the Turks, in which they are a thousand times right." He supported the right of the Greeks to national self-determination. However, he thought they were wrong to channel their movement into support for "the Greek king." He gave advice suggesting that *Italian* anarchists would do better to stay in Italy rather than intervene in Greece. The piece did not (contrary to what Myname seems to think) give advice as to what tactics *Greek* (or Turkish) anarchists should do, to fight for Greek independence while also raising their anarchist politics.

Brain Lice (not verified) Tue, 10/01/2024 - 09:30

In reply to by f (not verified)

f accuses Wayne of "sound[ing] like a fascist". Well let me ask you this, f: Makhno?
For the self-determination of the Ukrainian People to take NATO weapons and elect nationalist capitalist strongmen.
Wayne

anon (not verified) Fri, 09/27/2024 - 17:23

"There are other disasters in the world, such as in Sudan or Haiti, but the U.S.—our government—is not directly and immediately supporting the aggressors in those cases, financially, politically, and militarily. It is in Gaza."

This is incorrect. "Your" government is "directly and immediately supporting the aggressors" in Haiti, namely what's left of the Haitian state apparatus as well as the Kenyan-led occupation forces. (As well as the border regime run by the Dominican Republic.)

"Then, as now, a large proportion of the white left was composed of Jews."

If we are speaking specifically of the white left in "your" country, it's still worth specifying white Jews, both to avoid suggesting Jews are a racially homogenous group and to avoid making uninformed statements about the political alignments of non-white Jews at the time.

" Whatever Muslim fanatics might dream, the Israeli Jews are not leaving Palestine."

Why this sudden usage of "Muslim fanatics", a blatantly racist and pro-colonial phrase, in opposition to "Zionists", a term that clearly describes a group adhering to a specific political ideology? It's well understood that this is an outline of a position not necessarily agreed with, yet in outlining Zionist—in other words, genocidal—positions, he never describes them as religiously motivated or irrational.

"The leadership of the Black movement and much of the anti-war movement was channelled into the Democratic Party, there to be smothered and absorbed."

Omitting the fact that much of the leadership of the Black movement was killed, jailed, or exiled.

anon (not verified) Fri, 09/27/2024 - 20:41

In reply to by anon (not verified)

"Why this sudden usage of "Muslim fanatics", a blatantly racist and pro-colonial phrase"

Holy fuck, what can't I read here? 100% of all Muslims are really liberal progressive minded and in favor of gender equality, secularism and queer rights! They also are questionning their faiths all the time as you are totally allowed to debate the eixstence of Allah. /s

anon (not verified) Sat, 09/28/2024 - 05:23

In reply to by anon (not verified)

racist and colonial that saying "Taylor Swift Fanatics", inherently. The phrase means fanatics of islam, some muslims are more fanatic than others.

Of course, we can normally expect people on here to make exaggerated claims of racism whenever they can: that is anarchist news comment culture.

anon (not verified) Sat, 09/28/2024 - 10:04

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

"Why this sudden usage of "Muslim fanatics", a blatantly racist and pro-colonial phrase"

i certainly can't give you 5 stars for reading comprehension.

Why is it that "racism" is the main topic of conversation for anarchists? It's like they can only pick a fight with a vague thing that afflicts the entire world. I think it's an ego thing: if you can feel superior as "an anti-racist", then good for you...but please, deepen your understanding of racism instead of flailing your owns for an eternity.

anon (not verified) Sat, 09/28/2024 - 12:10

In reply to by anon (not verified)

"Why is it that "racism" is the main topic of conversation for anarchists?"

hardly the main one. colonialism, sexism, homophobia, fat phobia, transphobia, civ, and so much more...

i guess some of us can just pay attention to more than one thing at a time?

anon (not verified) Sat, 09/28/2024 - 12:50

In reply to by anon (not verified)

Reasons:

1) Nobody can "pay attention to more than one thing at once". Anarchists tie all those things together as if they were the same thing, but they are very much not the same thing. If you think they are, then you are a conspiracy theorist.

2) in the u.s., racism is the main subject for anarchists: but that doesnt make any sense because racism is global and is not unique to whie people.

Are you done rattling off bullshit just to defend your original bullshit?

anon (not verified) Sat, 09/28/2024 - 13:34

In reply to by anon (not verified)

never said they were the same thing. disagree that racism is the main thing for anarchists (but also, it could be the main thing for some and that is good/appropriate too), also that racism is global--i mean, racism is in most places but it also changes from place to place, i'd say, so... is that global? maybe?

i wasn't arguing about white people or not white people, and don't care to have that conversation with someone who hasn't indicated that they know how to have a conversation online.

why are my quick responses to you "rattling bullshit," but yours to me are... deep? profound? TRUTH? lol...

lumpy (not verified) Sat, 09/28/2024 - 15:01

In reply to by anon (not verified)

i know it's just a typo when he opens with "that's a bullshit!" but i read the whole thing in a nintendo mario accent because of it? makes it more fun

Whatsa with all the focus ona racism?!

anon (not verified) Sat, 09/28/2024 - 08:33

In reply to by anon (not verified)

There's at least two notorious Neonazis of the past few decades who expressed huge support to Islam and especially Islamist Jihadism. One is Ahmed Uber, co-founder of the Al-Taqwa Bank related to thr Muslim Brotherhood; and the other is that godawful clown David Myatt, of the O9A.

This, taking aside the support of post-war Nazis like Skorzeny and Eichmann to Arab and then Palestinian nationalism, like the Ba'at Party, the Iranian Revolution, the early Nasser regime and even the Algerian nationalist movement.

But then Soviet Russia went into supporting some of these movements and states (ooooh, guess what... MORE White Europeans with tolitarian politics and agendas for wold.domination!).

anon (not verified) Sat, 09/28/2024 - 06:53

In reply to by anon (not verified)

Islam is oppressing Black.people, too, you know? Especially Black.women and young girls in some.countries. It's kinda fucked you're by default equating a religion to.skin tone.

anon (not verified) Sat, 09/28/2024 - 10:12

In reply to by anon (not verified)

assert about muslims being victims of white oppression is pretty disgusting and racist.

Racism has generally been used as a polarization and exploitation tool: Muslim leaders and elites already use anti-semitism to propagate their bullshit. Anyone can use racism, this is Stirner Metaphysics 101. Please register for the class if you haven't.

anon (not verified) Sat, 09/28/2024 - 19:34

In reply to by anon (not verified)

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/obfuscation

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/denial

You're the one who started by equating the use of Muslim fanaticism with "racism". So how is that racist?

My fuess is your only base for.this statement is a broad syllogisms on the perceived types of people usjng these terms, so to say:

- Racist islamophobes sometimes talk of Muslim fanatics,
- therefore everyone talking of Muslim fanatcism HAS to be a racist islamophobe.

So in a nutshell, despite religious fanaticism being a thing worldwide, Islam gets a waiver, coz some.bunch of racists, somewhere.

Are you, like, 12!?

GiggyMantis Mon, 09/30/2024 - 10:30

In reply to by anon (not verified)

> Islam is oppressing Black people

I didn't know there was a person named Islam. Where can I find her, and how was she doing this?

In all seriousness though, religions do not oppress anyone. Institutions oppress people, under the guise of religion.

anon (not verified) Mon, 09/30/2024 - 12:07

In reply to by GiggyMantis

Feel free to compare the ethno-demogrwphics of Israel, vs Palestinian territories for a shocker.

Israel has been taking Jews from all over the Middle-East and Africa. The systemic discrimination against Ethiopian Jews has mostly to do with specific, increasingly-racist admins, and not with Israel as a whole. This is like saying the US is the most racist place on the planet... the fact there's definitely racist aspects still today, the US pretty racially-inclusive next to, like, the fucking EU or Mexico.

anon (not verified) Mon, 09/30/2024 - 11:59

In reply to by GiggyMantis

How odd you're feminizing "Islam" out of nowhere... as if this wasn't already an exclusively-patriarcal *religious movement*. Having too much InCel self-sex ain't very good for the brains, so it seems.

anon (not verified) Sun, 09/29/2024 - 18:47

In reply to by anon (not verified)

"Why this sudden usage of "Muslim fanatics", a blatantly racist and pro-colonial phrase"

Srsly brow... you're still pretending you can get away such dumb, bigoted statement. The rest of your comment wasn't bad, but here you just dropped a brain turd and pretend you can get away with it.

A majority of those that are deemable as Muslim fanatics, or Jihadists, are not even Black. Many Middle-Eastern, some in Malaysia and Indonesia, as well as even some White Westerners like those thst have joined ISIS during its heydays.

Where, again, is the "blantant" racism in calling religious fanatics for what they are?

You seem to be throwing a shit argument to defend groups and tendencies that are the farthest thing away from anarchy, next to Nazis and Stalinists.

f (not verified) Tue, 10/01/2024 - 07:39

In reply to by anon (not verified)

I didn't even get to mentioning these parts, the jews stuff, trying to frame it as an islam issue, the infantilizing of Palestinians.
Pretty sure this guy is just a right-wing nut tbh, above he's even running the standard lines of Ukrainian fascists.
no idea why he's posted here.

Tim Declercq (not verified) Sat, 09/28/2024 - 10:05

"Stalin’s Russia" - You mean the Soviet Union? The Russian SFSR was but one of the constituent republics of the USSR, and Stalin himself wasn't even from there but from the Georgian SSR.

CalvinSmith (not verified) Sat, 09/28/2024 - 10:41

offensive, and i want you to stop with your revolutionary socialism at once:

"There are other disasters in the world, such as in Sudan or Haiti, but the U.S.—our government—is not directly and immediately supporting the aggressors in those cases, financially, politically, and militarily. It is in Gaza."

Don't you understand how many different places the U.S. government influences?! It's a money party! Trillions of dollars directly and indirectly influencing nation states all across the world.

Please: this type of self-righteous activism is embarrassing to the entire human race. How do you even breath and wake up in the morning?

Wayne Price (not verified) Sat, 09/28/2024 - 16:18

In reply to by CalvinSmith (not verified)

CalvinSmith quotes my statement that "the U.S. ...is not directly and immediately supporting the aggressors" in many countries in the same way as it is in Israel/Palestine/Gaza. He responds with indignation: "Don't you understand how many different places the U.S. government influences?!"

Apparently Calvin cannot distinguish between a charge that the US is "directly and immediately" intervening in Palestine and that it "influences" many other countries. The US remains the dominant power of world imperialism (if notthe only power and if in decline), but its intervention is rarely as direct as it was in Afghanistan and Iraq and as it is now in Palestine. This is not a denial of US imperialism, as Calvin seems to think.

anon (not verified) Sun, 09/29/2024 - 23:13

I do think it's funny that this post had only 2 comments—despite the author!—until racism was mentioned.

anon (not verified) Mon, 09/30/2024 - 09:03

the people in this comment section, splitting hairs over all this geopolitics shit.... have got to be the most insufferably boring dorks in the world.

have some sex, polcels.

anon (not verified) Mon, 09/30/2024 - 10:50

Can we just stop posting all these israel/palestine/russia/ukraine threads???

It's all just so tiresome....

Can we please just go back to making @news a fun place again?

These geopolitics are boring as fuck

Do we really want this site overrun with boring milktoast polcel ramblings?

I miss the days of the head acephale with a girldick in one hand, a machete in the other

That was some funny shit,

But this?

Cmon y'all....

GiggyMantis Mon, 09/30/2024 - 11:10

In reply to by anon (not verified)

There is a stark contrast between broader Geopolitical Issues (like Ukraine/Russia or China/Taiwan etc.) which are just "Eastern Imperialism v. Western Imperialism) and actual colonization.

anon (not verified) Mon, 09/30/2024 - 19:48

In reply to by anon (not verified)

Yes, well, we're debating this stuff coz.it DOES affect people IRL, even if this ain't the sexy core of our daily lives. When you got nationalists covertly hanging out at anarchist gatherings as some kind of exotic comrades, they deserve being scrutinized.and exposed for their bullshit.

anon (not verified) Mon, 09/30/2024 - 20:28

In reply to by anon (not verified)

I dunno I never watched Naruto. Should I!?

Japan consumer pop culture obsession is annoying and also an artefact of fashy Whitetrash suburban spectacle culture. Yes it reproduces, all over the place. Now go grab some 14 year old butt under their school mini-skirt at the smelly neckbeard gamer shoppe for me, will ya? Or wank about it.

anon (not verified) Mon, 09/30/2024 - 23:24

In reply to by anon (not verified)

...we put those "exotic comrades" (non-white people) in their place right bud? Gotta make sure those uppity colored peoples dont go unscrutinized what with all their nigger bullshit.

lmaoooo

anon (not verified) Mon, 09/30/2024 - 23:26

In reply to by anon (not verified)

All I got from your comments, anon, is that you hate Japanese people and "exotic comrades" (ie: black/brown people). It's right there in your own words.

racist POS.

maybe if you'd watch more naruto and engage in less polcel'ing you'd be more based, instead of a giga cringe faggot white boy.

anon (not verified) Wed, 10/02/2024 - 07:33

In reply to by anon (not verified)

How even! Japan being perhaps the most racist, xenophobic country in East Asia. and also a pretty fashy society overall with its intense communitarianism, repression of LGBTQ, and their anime culture that systematically does rape & torture porn, as well as pedo shit? U racist if you even criticize that!!!

f (not verified) Tue, 10/01/2024 - 07:34

Wow. weird that wannabe Colonial Administrators are posting on @news.
Last i checked the only peoples who's opinions on this matter is Palestinians and others under the zio-settler yoke, not you, American pig.
>'But the authoritarian tradition of the revolutionary left has left an unfortunate effect in not explicitly declaring for a radically-democratic, cooperative, pluralistic, society in Palestine—not Hamas’ goal.

> The Israeli Jews must be willing to give up their Zionism, their Jewish-supremacy in a “Jewish state,” in order to live together with the Palestinians.

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