Topic of the Week – Around 20 years ago the Anarchist News (ANews) website launched on the Internet with the header tagline of “even anarchists get the news.” Since then, a lot has changed with the website, but much of ANews also remains the same. This week we’re celebrating 20 years of Anarchist News and having a conversation about this website, anarchist news, and the Internet.

In a recent forum post titled “20 Years of Anarchist News” by Anonymous, they ask “What do you think is, successful, disappointing, or otherwise noteworthy about this site's 2nd decade in existence?”[1]

How do you interact with ANews and other anarchist counter-information websites? What anarchist ideas about counter-information and the anarchist media do you find intriguing? What annoys you the most about ANews & other anarchist counter-information projects? How do you think ANews & other anarchist counter-information projects are doing it well/poorly? How do you think most anarchists think about ANews & anarchist counter-information projects? What historical examples of anarchist news projects do you like to draw from and compare / contrast?

[1] Forum post by Anonymous - “20 Years of Anarchist News” https://anarchistnews.org/content/20-years-anarchist-news

Listen to the conversation here!

Comments

(NottaTroll) (not verified) Mon, 08/26/2024 - 07:43

In reply to by anon (not verified)

It opened the door to trolls posting shallow one-liner replies.

anon (not verified) Mon, 08/26/2024 - 08:12

In reply to by anon (not verified)

^ Not the commentator above that pointed out the other one-liner directly above your comment, but usually these kind of one-liner replies get taken down because they are meaningless and say nothing. Why don't you expand your argument some more and explain it. By thecollective removing your comment, it only reveals that they don't like one-liner comments being posted, and absolutely nothing about their (anti)-politics. Take some time and leave a thought out comment - the ANews comment section has always been moderated, so what are you saying? I think most places on the Internet have some kind of moderation, even 4chan and Telegram, although the Telegram CEO was just taken into custody in France for "lack of moderation" on the app. BTW, in the ANews About US page it does mention moderation of one-liner comments.

-thecollective_1.8

anon (not verified) Mon, 08/26/2024 - 08:47

In reply to by anon (not verified)

This is absurd.

Firstly, the moderators are not just deleting short "one-liners". They are deleting anything that bothers them. It's literally 'top-down', subjective punishment/decision making.

Secondly, more words does not always equal better.

What Neech could say in a single aphorism would take K-Marx a 9000 page unreadable tome. By your logic Neech would be deleted in favor of Marx. Oftentimes brevity is the most accurate way AND gives room for people to actually consider and participate. Be like Neech not K-Marx.

You've allowed your egos to get in the way of anarchy. Do better in 2025.

anon (not verified) Mon, 08/26/2024 - 08:52

In reply to by anon (not verified)

I think there could be a meaningful one or two liner, I think the IWW might have had some back in the day. To each their own though I guess. Point taken about the initial comment in particular, on the other hand.

anon (not verified) Mon, 08/26/2024 - 11:25

In reply to by anon (not verified)

Purely hypothetical, but is it a neutral form of moderation focused on one-liners being meaningless to leave up a paragraph or two by someone saying, "I like Arabs but... *thought out racist paragraph*" but take down a one-liner that just says "I don't like racism."? Or is that you taking a stance, in favor of sensationalism at the very least, and possibly worse. Why pose as neutral?

GhostOfAnewsPast (not verified) Mon, 08/26/2024 - 08:39

"Moderation will be 'bottom up' and not 'top down'"

You had one job and you failed horribly. SHAME!

anon (not verified) Mon, 08/26/2024 - 08:50

in some ways the back and forth of one-liners can be like a good comedy routine. usually though it is just middle school slang thrown back and forth, like chimps at the zoo tossing their feces at one another. this is just dull.

because sometimes the funny is appropriate and appreciated but other times it really distracts from the flow of the conversation.

but there has always been those who have a one track mind and no matter the topic they will only ever say that one thing, sometimes at great length.

anyway, the news aggregate aspect of ANews is why i keep showing up. i particularly like the news from places I'll probably never go to.

congratulations on 20 years!

lumpy (not verified) Mon, 08/26/2024 - 08:53

I'm very grateful to this place and worker's summary from the 10 year mark still captures most of what there is to say

i'd add that there's a few hidden paths through the woods, left by anarchist writers and thinkers and those who collect and publish. i never would have known shit about any of that if not for this place! my POV is quite different and better off because of it

anon (not verified) Mon, 08/26/2024 - 10:05

Digital counter information spaces are valuable, those based *not* on the social media behemoths are even more critical. Unfortunately, the current landscape is pretty barren of satisfying options, at least in English.

Indymedia could (should?) have filled a similar rolell. It seems to have been almost totally supplanted among English speakers by social media. The ones that are still going strong in other languages probably reflect the fact that anarchish infrastructure is just stronger in those places than it is among Britain's descendants.

Most English counterinfo spaces either don't allow comments anywhere outside their social media presences; the fact that so many of them do maintain such presences suggests it can't all be chalked up to "security". The Anews comment section is, in a lot of ways, the only game in town. This is terrible, especially when it leads people to believe the alternative is only the types of anarchism that can be tolerated by governments like the USA. A more diverse ecosystem is badly needed, and while a bigger/deeper anarchist space would facilitate that it's not safe to assume those who can will just do it. The importance of counter infrastructure has to be taught and retaught.

Something like raddle could be considered splitting the difference, but as long as admins are preemptively deleting stuff they think will get them in trouble even when it's plainly anarchist, it can't be considered a real counter info tool.

If the endurance of anews helps drive the creation of *actually alternative* platforms that won't necessarily have the same baggage, even if they inevitably face many of the same problems, perhaps it can be considered to be a success. It feels like there's an enormous amount of ground to "catch up" to something that could be compared to anarchist infrastructures a century ago

lumpy (not verified) Mon, 08/26/2024 - 12:21

In reply to by anon (not verified)

"britain's descendants" - how fukin dare you lol

anyway, i completely agree. don't think we didn't notice you're talking about DUAL POWER

seriously, counter infrastructure, counter power, call it whatever you want and no, this can't just be dismissed as "leftism" because literally any marginal political position has to do some form of it to be anything beyond a set of cute opinions and/or a subculture that mostly exists for dating and entertainment purposes

I DIDN'T MAKE THE RULES but feel free to take pot shots at the messenger like always

anon (not verified) Mon, 08/26/2024 - 23:45

In reply to by anon (not verified)

Raddle? lol That snitchspace that can't even be viewed without JS and cookies, and systematically removes any content Ziq or one of his hundreds of sockpuppets doesn't like? They don't remove the anarchist content because it'll them in trouble; they remove it because it is too anarchist for them.

All the recent butthurt about Anews moderating is trivial compared to the moderating on that shit site.

anon (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 00:50

In reply to by anon (not verified)

it's true. half of anews' comments wouldn't make it past the raddle mods. that's not an exaggeration.

raddle is for hyper-sensitive, hyper-woke zoomer-anarchists. if you ain't one, don't expect to be on there for long.

SirEinzige Mon, 08/26/2024 - 20:14

When it launched we were still in the late stages of Web 1.0, geocities was still a thing. The internet as a whole was not in it's dead period(look up 'Dead Internet Theory') Social media dominated by myspace and MS represented a pre-profilicity era social media. It was an extension fading GenX authenticity, the older millennials(I'm one) were cooler.

Now we exist in a dying internet profilicity era with standardized performative social media. Anews unfortunately reflects these times in terms of the less interesting topics, posts and posters. Part of me would like to see registered commenters but I think you just have to let the historical string play out.

Anews being great again is ultimately contingent of a new @ radical zeitgeist, and that zeitgeist will not come from the current decedent milieu. We need new naughty(dear I say weird) radicals that transcend the profilicity age.

anon (not verified) Mon, 08/26/2024 - 21:17

In reply to by SirEinzige

why naughty? I am weird myself, so very pro-weird, for most iterations of weird. naughty though, what do you mean by that? sex pest naughty? or purposely being offensive naughty? or what?

sure, a vibe shift, if not a zeitgeist shift is due, but frankly, the does-not-work-well-with-others reflex as supposed revolutionary act is tedious and boring.

Exlurker (not verified) Mon, 08/26/2024 - 22:42

In reply to by anon (not verified)

I wonder if dedicated contrarian trolls on right-wing social media spaces are equally anarchist to anyone here?

Fauvenoir (not verified) Mon, 08/26/2024 - 21:40

I dunno... seems like the least to do is throw some kind of party for all the old and newer regs of this site, and all the friend, enemies and frienemies of Thecollective.

Would it be too ambitious? What if this could be used in a way as to get broader attention, as in "coup d'éclat"?

Please no online party, tho.

anon (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 00:50

i think anews is great and that the people (or... single person?) constantly whining about their comments being deleted should literally kill themselves.

i say that as someone who's had plenty of comments deleted over the decade. NOBODY CARES about your fucking comments and NOBODY CARES about your comments being deleted. if you don't like it fuck off and make your own version of anews where you can commentate all day from whatever your stultified anarcho-capitalist or anarcho-liberal perspective happens to be

anon (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 06:12

An assertion and reflection about anarchist media from Twitter that is related to this TOTW, like “How do you think anarchist counter-information projects are doing it well/poorly?” [ed. note - I’m not CyberDandy, only sharing their comment that I like, maybe they will chime in too]

Especifismo Everywhere! states:

“The American anarchist movement has lost an immense amount of ground to authoritarian leftists over the past decade. Until we're honest with ourselves about how this happened, we're not going to see an improvement.”

CyberDandy responds:

I don’t know what you think the causes of this are, but a huge one is that anarchist media fell behind other anti-capitalists when video streaming became popular. Anarchists had spent at least a decade emphasizing the importance of security culture, masking, op sec, etc. in response to some disturbing cases of state repression aided by infiltrators and informants. While many anarchists were advocating things like Tor, Tails, cleaning metadata on files, posting anonymously, and telling people to “Read Desert”… various anti-capitalists, from DemSocs to MLs, were building networks on popular streaming platforms and making themselves the public face of left wing anti-establishment.

Some anarchists made video content and built fan bases, of course. But overall, anarchist media was text and audio. The more that social media platforms dominated the distribution of news and opinion in text and the more that podcasting became super saturated (with help from audio streaming platforms embracing them), longtime anarchist media lost traffic.

@michaelmalice is a good example of someone who doesn’t seem to have any roots in anarchist spaces, yet became massively popular with arguably anarchist messaging because they embraced the new media landscape. @VaushV has confused many of us longtime anarchists by calling himself a “libertarian socialist”… but we all know who he is and it’s because he embraced the new media landscape.

Of course, the Bernie Sanders to DSA thing is part of this. So is the outcomes of Antifa… in numerous ways. There are a bunch of other things too. But anarchists failing to produce the type of content that could represent more authentic anarchist positions on popular platforms made it very easy for others to tell the world who we are. [source]

lumpy (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 09:34

In reply to by anon (not verified)

i like cyberdandy and appreciate some of his content BUT he seems to be suggesting here that anarchy needs more parasocial relationships with influencer cult leaders?

how bout ... no? how bout, we should all drink boiling acid instead? 10,000 fuck thats? hard disagree

nonononowrongwrongwrongwrongnonononowrongWRONGwhathefahNO! ... no.

dude ... no. clearly suffering from applying his one and only method or something

anon (not verified) Wed, 08/28/2024 - 06:50

In reply to by lumpy (not verified)

thanks lumper.
i can't handle video essays either and i'm just a younger millennial autist. i can read three essays and form my own critiques in the time it takes one youtuber to talk at me for an hour. i also can't imagine sitting there and looking at the screen with focus for a full video, with text i can leave and return at will.
have heard from friends that having the conversational style and assisted interpretation of a video essay is helpful for their pondering. not everyone takes in all info through a lens of their inner personal logical frameworks.
while i similarly disagree with the structure of influencer-dissemination bc of the whole homogeny/hegemony problem, it does leave us in a bit of a stalemate. in my limited perspective, it seems like the ppl who consume video/trad social media 'content' are more likely to be subsumed into leftish-woke-communalist-cope-world and the individualists are more likely to be approximately media illiterate or else reading but no videos.

are these simply irresolvable personality differences? or is lib-soc (auth-soc) the active cooptation of 'valuable potential anarchists'? i'm tempted to believe there's little to no use in proselytizing--at least that middle class kids are no closer to forsaking their moral superiority than the conservatives or the athenians who saw diogenes around town.

lumper (not verified) Wed, 08/28/2024 - 09:51

In reply to by anon (not verified)

maybe? maybe just the times? the video essay took off because it's extremely cheap to produce, second only to rambling in to a livestream without any citation or sources or coherent thoughts or whatever

the whole story of like, breadtube and similar content was about how the far right were totally dominating most of the platforms in the gamergate era and people felt they needed to push back. i'm sympathetic to that but could be that parasocial relationships with influencers will be thought of in a few decades kind of like how people view tobacco companies in hindsight

GEF (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 20:34

In reply to by anon (not verified)

A few more pointless observations that I yet consider worthy...

I think CD has a point, but putting your face on the internet telly means not only potentially being a cop magnet but also has the potential of ruining your career. Techies got the vast latitude of being able to steer large in that field, as long as they aren't obviously support "terrorism", or criminal activity or copyright infringement. But couldn't somebody like Jeremy Hammond be doing their own vidcast? I think this could be actually way powerful!

Of course it's up to everyone if they wanna bring themselves on the forefront or not. Either decision is equally respectable.

Scandal and notoriety is one of the things that seem to give anarchists a leeway into celebrity. Cyberdandy, despite doing a lot of good work, isn't notorious for much... Get someone with a well-mediatized past of causing trouble to the state and then you get tons more followers.

But in the end, the medium defines the relationship, and the audience you pick defines what kind of results you might get out of your following. If you get into selling books through academic press, well you'll get a kinda crowd that could different from the people you get though DIY music/zine distros. What kind of audience you'll have out of tube channel followers? What are people *really* doing when reading or watching a vid? Yes, they just sit on their asses, thinking, maybe. When listening to podcasts? They listen while doing stuff, but with the false impression they're taking part in a conversation. The Spectacle is way more obvious with video, while there's also an obvious Separation with podcasters, but also with authors.

Let's also add internet anarchist forums. Not closed unidirectional sites like IGD and CrimethInc. Similar relationship to reading and watching vids, except with the possibility to discuss ideas. Interactivity, even if it's not interaction.

In the end there's no perfect way to spread a discourse and POV, especially when it's not IRL. Think of all insurgencies that reached a major momentum; their organizing ALWAYS came form IRL interactions. Nothing still beats F2F. Not even bullshit social media.

SirEinzige Wed, 08/28/2024 - 09:08

In reply to by GEF (not verified)

It is not a solvent in in itself. IRL dynamics involve some type of media ecological structure that brings people together. The problem with current @ IRL meetings is that there are a lot of settled dogmatic mores that that mediate these meetings. Sometimes and old idea needs a new media context to recreate itself.

We need a new milieu, and new types of media can help create that new milieu meetspace.

Rabbit (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 07:29

However much I never really got enthusiastic about this site, looking back, I suppose it really was some sort of improvement over Infoshop and Ainfos, which isn't saying much to be fair. The comments section not only doesn't seem to add anything useful but also facilitates a place for authoritarians such as zionists, left communists, militarists and fascists to troll actual anarchists (and each other). I knew Aragorn and I know he loved drama and name-calling but not everyone does, or not everyone thinks it's important enough to actively facilitate it to the detriment of something else. The anti-politics forum, on the other hand, was actually a decent discussion space, at least at one point, in my humble opinion. I don't know that could be re-created at this point though.

lumpy (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 09:29

In reply to by Rabbit (not verified)

is it about "loving drama"?

or is it the only conclusion somebody can reasonably draw if you're not trying to silo everyone in to little pocket dimensions where they tend to agree with each other?

there's a connection there, that people seem to miss - they complain about like "fragile redditors" who overzealously moderate and then they dismiss the messy, combative vibes when the very different worlds collide but what's the 3rd option?

for me, it just feels more like the real world when people are constantly fighting haha and it's dismissied as "drama" until the "drama" gets too intense, at which point, the socially anxious people shift the framing of their complaints

Rabbit (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 09:33

In reply to by lumpy (not verified)

I mean, I spent time with him and he would be visibly and audibly giddy as he brought up drama or tried to cause new drama, just assuming that I would be into it, I guess either because he assumed that's what anarchists are into generally or because of some other shared identity between us. This is just my interpretation of our interactions. I also know that he would call anarchists the name "maoist" if he didn't like some aspect of their (anti) politics, which also seemed dramatic to me.

lumpy (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 09:37

In reply to by Rabbit (not verified)

hahaha ok ok, yes, true

i'm not disagreeing bout aragorn's petty bullshit which i always found quite funny, especially the everything-i-dont-like-is-maoist stuff BUT i also feel like in the 10 years of @news piece, there's a gesture towards what i'm saying, aside from who they were as a person

Rabbit (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 09:42

In reply to by lumpy (not verified)

To be abundantly clear, I had zero problem with him being vocal about his differences with other anarchists, or even with him being gossipy. It's more about how it was done. And I think this relates to the more or less arbitrary (as it seems to me) way that comments are moderated and stories are selected here still to this day.

lumpy (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 09:45

In reply to by Rabbit (not verified)

sure and i suppose my point is that this "drama" is the poopy soil in which better analysis grows sometimes?

but it leeches in to the ground water? don't drink the water. ..and don't touch your eyes til you wash your hands

Rabbit (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 09:55

In reply to by lumpy (not verified)

To be excruciatingly clear, I'm not an all in for rational thought type of person myself, I don't think my own interpretations are flawless, and I find sometimes my intuition was right where my rational mind was wrong. So, yes, sometimes useful things can come out of the more loose and emotive side of things than the strict and cold side. I just don't believe in needlessly causing harm, however minimal, to basically decent people for the sake of entertainment alone.

lumpy (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 09:59

In reply to by Rabbit (not verified)

oh, i see! well that's not a very hot take, is it?

i too, choose my friends carefully. think my point was more about how some nastiness is good for learning sometimes. especially when the people we're talking about (anarchists) are about to march off to war, it seems strange to suggest their hurt feelings are going to be their biggest problem

anon (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 10:52

In reply to by Rabbit (not verified)

A! had reasons for calling people maoist. it wasn't just that he didn't like them. he was fully capable of just not liking people with no political rationale for it necessary.

maoism is in fact a thing, and it's super fucking common, most notably (or maybe that's just who i spend too much time with) amongst the kinds of identity politicians who want to hang out with a native anarchist.

liking drama, appreciating the need for conflict, and accurately (almost always) calling people out for stuff that they're doing that they don't recognize is part of a fucked up politic are none of them mutually exclusive.

maoism= things like, believing that the most downtrodden are the most revolutionary. for one very common example.

just sayin'.

Rabbit (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 11:09

In reply to by anon (not verified)

If you read my initial comment on it, I didn't say A! called people maoist because he didn't like them. I said because he had antipolitical differences with them. Two different things. I'm also well aware that there are actual Maoists. The issue is that A! called people who are anarchists maoists. I prefer to leave the slander to the experts, the authoritarian communists. Fine to have and vocalize differences between anarchists though, I fully support it and think it's dangerous to not air them out.

anon (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 11:18

In reply to by Rabbit (not verified)

my disagreement with you is probably not deep, rabbit, but nothing you've said indicates that you recognize that many people call themselves anarchists, even value anarchy, and STILL participate in stupid thinking that is frequently maoist.

you can disagree that the people a! called that, were in fact maoist, but you're not saying "they didn't think maoist things, here's the explanation." you're just saying "nuh unh."

which is an option, of course.

Rabbit (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 11:42

In reply to by anon (not verified)

Maoism is anarchism influenced, first of all, but sure, anarchists these days can also say maoism influenced things. Not sure most name-callers fully grasp the nuances, timelines and influences though. My point was that A! called anarchists maoist for saying things that are either anarchist or not exclusively maoist. I'm not sure he always exactly believed what he was saying. The act of name-calling was paramount. Now, I'm not against warm-hearted teasing either but we have to watch out for falling into spite or just clique behavior when we're not dealing with outright enemies. I'm not a fan of Maoism personally but I wouldn't call A! one simply because I'm not into his version of anarcho-nihilism or whatever. I think this relates to how this site still operates because the collective is A! influenced more than A! critical

anon (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 12:00

In reply to by Rabbit (not verified)

say more about "how this site still operates" in a way that is... falling into spite? clique behavior? trying to understand your point.

Rabbit (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 12:35

In reply to by anon (not verified)

More that name-calling and dishonesty are facilitated on purpose, to some extent, because it's dramatic. That's my impression, for what it's worth, and based on my experience with A! but I could be wrong. That things are run more arbitrarily than ecumenically.

anon (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 12:41

In reply to by Rabbit (not verified)

first anon here: definitely fascinated to hear how this site (not to mention a!) facilitates name-calling and dishonesty, for any reason, much less for some bullshit reason like "loving drama".

do please explain.

Rabbit (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 12:53

In reply to by anon (not verified)

Why would I explain again something I already explained here as being based on a real experience with A!, when you either didn't read it or just want to call it bullshit? You don't need to believe me but why would I dialogue with someone who believes that I'm just trolling or who can't be bothered to read what I'm saying before they complain? Why wouldn't we just go our separate ways? For drama's sake? Or just to waste time?

anon (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 13:05

In reply to by Rabbit (not verified)

you're offering an interpretation of your experience, not the experience itself. of course. but you could give more facts (obv not names or even specifics, necessarily, but enough to let people have more of a sense of what you're basing your interpretation on). this is harder to do, and doing it online can feel like a waste of time. but then we're here, and doing this, so...

the reason to hash these things out are manifold. one, to check other's people's assessments of an interaction against our own. two, to show how to be convincing to strangers and/or potential friends online. three, to challenge ourselves and each other to be clear about why and how we're thinking and making decisions.

there are probably more. those were off the top of my head.

Rabbit (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 14:04

In reply to by anon (not verified)

I did offer at least part of what happened, that he appeared giddy in bringing up drama (out of nowhere, I'll clarify) expecting to revel in it with me, on his assumption, incorrect on his part, that I would be fully into it, like this is what anarchists do, or what some other identity does. Another time, we were talking about a friend and speculating on their change of ideology but A! seemed to me to not care what the actual facts were regarding this person, just the idea that they were possibly a turncoat was enough. Obviously can't share an experience itself with someone who wasn't there and I could never read A!'s mind but these are my impressions of some experiences I had with him. The line between experience and impression is a little more fuzzy than normal for me in this case. Point being that ANews has never seemed as neutral to me as it seemed to want to appear as.

yet another anon (not verified) Wed, 08/28/2024 - 07:06

In reply to by Rabbit (not verified)

oftentimes when ppl have conflicting personal approaches that they both take for granted it can be described by carl jung-derived personality typology, if you believe in the value of observational psychology. without invoking that 'pseudoscience' too strongly, some ppl seem to revel in collisions and some prefer to be let be to ponder their thoughts on the inside. and some even prefer to never question their assumptions.

anon (not verified) Wed, 08/28/2024 - 07:39

In reply to by Rabbit (not verified)

and Rabbit, you didn't explain how anews perpetuates this bad behavior that you're saying a! engaged in, btw. so you saying you already explained it is confusing. just to note it.

Rabbit (not verified) Wed, 08/28/2024 - 08:07

In reply to by anon (not verified)

Thought I did, my apologies, mostly was thinking of it hosting an unmoderated comments section where zionists or other authoritarians are welcome, where one line unclever insults are welcome, and to a lesser extent by posting any story where someone calls themselves an anarchist or someone else calls them an anarchist when the person is in fact a fascist who works for the state, or something like that, without any kind of editorial commentary (aside from the podcast, where they don't always research the stories they comment on). Just seems like a cliquey, sectarian, dramatic and insulting atmosphere is considered fun and good, that name-calling, including the name anarchist, takes priority over other things or the content of anything. It's all to be expected, I just don't think anyone should pretend the site is neutral. We're all only human, after all.

SirEinzige Wed, 08/28/2024 - 08:59

In reply to by Rabbit (not verified)

We're talking about a state backed ideology that infected many a child of the intelligentsia and adjacents in the 1970s and spilled over beyond that. It's a fucking psycho linguistic disease that many milieu types don't even know they have.

Aragorn experienced the spillover of that sewage first hand via people like Van Jones and others like him who would insert themselves into organic radical contexts via minoritarian linguistic shielding and other psychological linguistic tricks. The MMV has had disastrous effects on what could have been of 1968 based radicalism. I can completely understand why he used that term the way he did. He was deeply involved in that body politic and he saw it happening left and right.

It's like the term woke but unlike that lowbrow abused term maoist does actually make sense to describe a certain type of left identitarian pseudo radicalism whether the adherent is electively a maoist or not.

Rabbit (not verified) Wed, 08/28/2024 - 10:20

In reply to by SirEinzige

I've experienced actual Trots and Stalinists being shitty in real life. I don't call a anarcho-platformist I know a Stalinist or Trot just because someone else with a different ideology was shitty. I talk about the actual content of the differences between my version of anarchism and his. Name-calling in this instance wouldn't assist in us understanding the differences between our positions. I also don't call fellow anarchists brain-washed or some other name just for reading texts by the Panthers or whatever. Critical thought is possible. Anarchists like Emma Goldman used to publish texts by non-anarchists in her journal regularly. There's a difference between influence and actual subscription to an ideology.

lumpy (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 11:19

In reply to by anon (not verified)

don't know if you want to get in to this but it's pretty clear in hindsight that a bunch of @s from that era, in the US context, used the term "maoism" for what now gets referred to as liberal identity politics. aka Mark Fisher's vampire castle metaphor.

my favorite example of this is this essay https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/lupus-dragonowl-against-identit…

it's very smart, it's at least 75% correct about everything and the only problem is these problems of theory aren't reducible to maoism

maoism is just one of many sets of theories that made huge, categorical assumptions like this and anarchists from that time were dealing with a lot of maoist cults, so they were like "this is because maoism" but it's not. they mistook the forest for one, obnoxious, toxic type of tree

anon (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 11:29

In reply to by lumpy (not verified)

ffs, people knew the difference between identity politics and maoism.
hence my point re "the most downtrodden", which is not the same (though frequently conflated with) disenfranchisement around race. att the time more people used the term identity politician than maoist, at least around me, which made the point about mao more meaningful. so ime it was the opposite of what you're saying.

and no one is saying that anything is ONLY maoist. the point was to be able to say (briefly, as people have limited attention spans) that something is a problem, and have the listener take it seriously enough to ponder it. obviously that would be contextual.

another thing that is lost online, more often than not.

lumpy (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 11:39

In reply to by anon (not verified)

disagree. plenty of people talk as if it's literally caused by maoism, plus it folds neatly in to the more irrational anti-leftist stuff that is CLEARLY the legacy of mccarthyism in that fuking unhinged country

perhaps shorthand for, became literal statement?

Rabbit (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 11:58

In reply to by lumpy (not verified)

I don't think that applies to what A! was doing though. I think he was more concerned with anarchists having any connections whatsoever to social movements and what he considered leftism or traditional anarchism. I could be off the mark. Consider this though, if you want. All of the founding fathers of anarcho-primitivism were marxists or started in the marxism realm (unlike me, who never had a marxism phase). Perlman, Camatte and Zerzan. To me, then, it would be more accurate to call any random primitivist anarcho-punk who knows literally nothing about marxism a marxist than it was for A! to call an anarchist a maoist simply for not being a nihilist.

anon (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 12:23

In reply to by Rabbit (not verified)

" simply for not being a nihilist."

wtf? i have said clearly one of the criteria for a! calling people maoist. NOTHING to do with them not being nihilist. and you have offered nothing substantive in response to that, just "yes, he did." can you back up any of your comments? if not, how is it helpful for the folks reading this and wanting to know how to notice things not-to-do?

Rabbit (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 12:43

In reply to by anon (not verified)

I missed the comment where some anon "said clearly one of the criteria for a! calling people maoist. NOTHING to do with them not being nihilist". Does it exist somewhere here? I also never said "yes, he did", so this seems like dishonest trolling to me. I just said it wasn't only because he didn't like a person. In fact, in one case I'm thinking of, it took the form of a backhanded compliment. Regardless, the name-calling isn't the only point of contention, there's also the drama and clique emphasis. Sorry I can't offer hard scientific proof of my experiences and impressions. I'm not a marxist after all.

anon (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 12:51

In reply to by Rabbit (not verified)

ew. so being a marxist is what it takes to back up what you're accusing other people of doing. i get that you're probably trying to be funny, but ew.

by saying someone did something (repetitively) then you're saying "yes he did" in spirit if not in exact words. i wasn't trying to be confusing.

" A! to call an anarchist a maoist simply for not being a nihilist." i'm sorry. what about that comment am i not understanding?

Rabbit (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 12:56

In reply to by anon (not verified)

How do I back up a subjective impression of a real experience? Honest question. The joke was many marxists think everything can be proven scientifically.

anon (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 13:16

In reply to by lumpy (not verified)

Fisher wasn't an anarchist. Also, that essay was motivated by the fact that people criticized Russell Brand after he said something critical of people even richer than him on TV.

lumpy (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 22:36

In reply to by anon (not verified)

yeah, true. the vampire castle is a great analogy and unfortunately, that piece of writing is like 1/3rd in defense of a serial rapist. no waving that away but it's "of its time" and Brand wasn't outted as a total scumbag yet. other people have borrowed the analogy since

anon (not verified) Wed, 08/28/2024 - 12:08

In reply to by lumpy (not verified)

Brand was known to be not so anticapitalist as his brand (LOL) implied, which was part of what motivated the criticism which offended Fisher so much. That criticism was equally "of its time" as his screed.

There's something to be gained from criticisms of the ways the left treats its own, which is probably what fans of his piece value it for. Which people consider a celebrity comedian one of "their own" though?

lumpy (not verified) Wed, 08/28/2024 - 12:39

In reply to by anon (not verified)

yeah, i mean the context of Fisher simping for Brand at the time is embarrassing and terrible

but if you chop out just the portion where he describes the vampire castle, it's almost perfect

just a real shame that the context ruins it but also why i don't have to feel bad about stealing it

anon (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 10:56

In reply to by lumpy (not verified)

"there's a connection there, that people seem to miss - they complain about like "fragile redditors" who overzealously moderate and then they dismiss the messy, combative vibes when the very different worlds collide but what's the 3rd option?"

how's this for a 3rd option- discuss, dialog, disagree all you want, but without all the vitriol and ad hominem? there can be vehement disagreement without personal attacks. or the middle school "humor", for that matter.

me: asking for decorum

anews: OMG why are you so authoritarian?!

amirite

anon (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 12:01

In reply to by lumpy (not verified)

(the real problem with moderation is when you reply to a post that has been deleted and then all that fine prose goes to waste). :(

but, i ask again, lumpy, why is reasonable discussion/ disagreement online "completely unrealistic" ?

lumpy (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 12:18

In reply to by anon (not verified)

srsly? it's not my fault that the internet is like this. i'm just ... able to accept it for the bleak hellscape that it is

you keep daring to dream tho!

anon (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 13:22

In reply to by lumpy (not verified)

did we not just have a reasonable interaction? unless there were other deleted posts i didn't see, neither of us resorted to ad hominem... it is possible. maybe not the norm, but possible.

lumpy (not verified) Tue, 08/27/2024 - 22:30

In reply to by anon (not verified)

here's some ad hominem, you're being a bit dense

you're talking about the exception to the overwhelming tendency, im extremely reasonable by online standards, have you never been to the rest of the place? cut the shit

Nettle Wed, 08/28/2024 - 08:52

In reply to by lumpy (not verified)

so you are to blame for the lack of decorum on here, is what i hear you admitting to... curious.

you asked if there was a different option to either aggressive moderation or complete war of all against all (slight exaggeration for effect).

the option to disagree, even strenuously, while also not being a total jerk was offered. somehow this makes you mad or whatever and you are the one who can't have a reasonable conversation on here probably because you are incapable, or at least you are making the choice not to.

kindness is not being dense, but now that you have made it abundantly clear that you are the one with absolutely no interest in arguing reasonably i know to not ever take anything you say seriously.

lumpy, and everyone, you make choices every time you post. there isn't some bad entity forcing you to sling invective.

lumpy (not verified) Wed, 08/28/2024 - 10:01

In reply to by Nettle

yes, i know. my choices reflect reality, not how i wish things ought to be. that's the fundamental disagreement i suppose

you require kindness in order to take things seriously!? i'm ... so sorry nettle! yikes!

anon (not verified) Wed, 08/28/2024 - 10:08

In reply to by lumpy (not verified)

it's an extroverts/introverts thing. orienting toward the external reality you perceive, or toward inner lenses of desires for reality. admittedly both are subjective...

Nettle Wed, 08/28/2024 - 10:21

In reply to by lumpy (not verified)

and here is another problem, purposely misreading, misunderstanding, misinterpreting what another a has written for maximal troll effect.

lumpy, I did not say i required kindness. i said kindness, decorum, reasonableness are choices we make.

i might prefer this or that, but require is a whole other sentence.

lumpy (not verified) Wed, 08/28/2024 - 10:31

In reply to by Nettle

nettle ... this is getting bizarre. we just don't agree and i'm pointing out how your insistence on "blame" doesn't change anything either. the internet is full of severely unwell and hostile people, that's an indisputable fact that i mentioned at the beginning.

you chose to ignore it and pretend that you could "gotcha" me by pretending this is about what I admit to or participate in. it's not. that's not how anything works. the internet was a vile place before i was old enough to type. i was always aware of the possibility of kindness, i didnt require you pointing it out.

so at this point, i'm wondering what the shadows on the wall of your cave are trying to tell you?

Nettle Wed, 08/28/2024 - 11:07

In reply to by lumpy (not verified)

lol, i am not talking about the rest of the internet / online. I'm talking about this site.

as you yourself say, kindness is possible and that is all i am saying.

my question is, even if the "internet is full of severely unwell and hostile people" why do you believe you then have to be exactly the same? that is all i am asking. really, you seem the type to just go along with the herd and here you are, also, ironically, claiming to be anarchist?? strange.

in the meantime, dude, check your paternalistic attitude claiming you have a lock on what is or is not reality, not a good look for anyone, again, claiming to be anarchist.

lumpy (not verified) Wed, 08/28/2024 - 14:13

In reply to by Nettle

I don't "believe" anything about this issue. I just accept how a room is when I walk in.

here's people addressing what might be your post from earlier, including myself?

https://anarchistnews.org/content/my-challenge-anews-commenters

if you stopped piously lecturing for long enough, a more interesting tangent might be whether you're giving terrible advice to the well meaning people who might listen, while refusing to accept that the toxic assholes are going to obviously ignore you

that's my experience with combative spaces, as i mentioned in the link

anon (not verified) Wed, 08/28/2024 - 02:42

I miss Emile, the Heroic Anti-One-Liner who defied The Collective with his mind-boggling theses.

triviabot (not verified) Wed, 08/28/2024 - 09:20

congrats Anews on on 20 years-- I've been along for the ride since around 2011. Love you guys.

Nettle Wed, 08/28/2024 - 11:28

tho, all i'm pointing to is we all have a choice on this site to engage with each other in a way that can either facilitate better conversations or can make it a cesspool. seeing what gets said here it would seem most want the cesspool and not the dialog. ah, well. *wanders off to better things*

anon (not verified) Wed, 08/28/2024 - 12:02

In reply to by Nettle

Wow did the moderators really delete this because it called out selective moderation being the reasons for things being the way they are here?:

Submitted by anon (not verified) on Wed, 08/28/2024 - 11:37

Blame the mods. Their selective and sporadic ego-driven moderation is why it's become a cesspool. There is no standard and there is no communication, only punishment and praise Think about it because this is not anarchy it's a replication of society! on a smaller micro-mediated scale.

Is critical feedback not allowed on Anews? I am a different anon and this disturbs me.

anon (not verified) Wed, 08/28/2024 - 12:17

In reply to by anon (not verified)

It's funny (not really). They say they don't want one-liners, yet anyone can go to some other dumpster fire comment threads & see what kind of one-liners are still up. It's hard to say whether it's "ego-driven" since we don't know which individual moderation decisions might be objected to by others if they were aware of them (or to what degree they are aware of them), but I do think the moderation style is part of the problem. Like A! got in trouble for, if you claim to be against no-platforming when criticized for your platforming choices, how much of a surprise is it when people whose comments & post submissions are rejected despite compliance with the basically nonexistent rules get upset? This isn't a plea to "satisfy everyone"; the awareness that no approach will work for all of us doesn't make the status quo sacrosanct.

thecollective Wed, 08/28/2024 - 13:56

In reply to by anon (not verified)

Yes, your comment was removed because you leave the same comment on every single comment thread when one of your comments are removed. Blame the mods? Look at your comment it’s not “critical feedback” you literally said there are “no standards” and “no communication.” #1) you leave this same comment on almost every single thread and when your comment is removed for the last year+, so you know there is communication and you know there are standards. Your method involves writing a bad comment, that usually involves some terrible saying and name-calling and then spam it over and over and over again because ANews has anonymous comments and allows Tor connections… and you’re blaming us. Look into the mirror dear anonymous.

Disgusted,
- thecollective_1.8

anon (not verified) Wed, 08/28/2024 - 14:12

In reply to by anon (not verified)

Fake collective. No true collective member say "ANews". So obvious it's just another s.e.e.t.h.i.n.g ..r.e.s.s.e.n.t.i.m.e.n.t.i.s.m.o, right brahs?

Could you expand your question into at least two-lines, however?

thecollective Wed, 08/28/2024 - 14:22

In reply to by anon (not verified)

^Exactly this type of comment. This is the type of comment you leave and then complain that your very meaningful work of text that you spent hours crafting got binned by some evil control all thecollective. I'm quite light on moderation and leave most stuff up, but if you're targeting ANews and being a total ass, why not delete every single comment you make.

How much of a hissy fit are you going to throw this time and leave 20+ comments full of words on various threads throughout ANews if the above comment is unpublished?

-thecollective_1.8

thecollective Wed, 08/28/2024 - 14:13

In reply to by anon (not verified)

I have so far chosen not to register an account for "thecollective_1.8" but use it as a way to reply to some comments. I just verified the comment as "thecollective"
-thecollective_1.8

Anon (not verified) Wed, 08/28/2024 - 15:28

In reply to by Nettle

Well I appreciate your comment, Nettle, and the anon's who also suggested you can have plenty of conflict and disagreement without the constant trolling. I'm extremely not averse to conflict in person or online and I also like to be sassy and confrontational, but the overall feel of most comment sections on @news does feel more like being shit posting trolls or hostile just for the sake of it. And Lumpy, your "that's just the way it is" kinda approach to the hostility on this site is interesting to me. Do you feel that way about most other social dynamics you're a part of? It kinda feels akin to being like "well, meh, the society at large is (insert whatever shitty social dynamic or oppressive culture), so that's just how it is"

lumpy (not verified) Sat, 08/31/2024 - 09:45

In reply to by Anon (not verified)

yeah, pretty much

but please note that i'm not telling people they can't have the discussions they want to have, i'm only pointing out how moralistic appeals to "do better" in a completely open, public space, that's just empty noise to me

at any time, people who don't give a damn can just stroll in and effortlessly kick over your little sand castle. so better discussion tends to require a slightly more controlled setting, like you and your friends get a room and have tea and respectfully listen to each other. i'm about that too, i enjoy it

what i find to be naive to the point of dysfunction, is when people show up late to a conflict, or don't process much of it and then equivocate all combatants. this is lazy at best and at worst, punishes people defending themselves and having boundaries

thecollective Wed, 08/28/2024 - 16:56

Hello,

In March 2004, worker – the OG ANews administrator posted a message on the newly created ANews website asking for an editorial collective. Some might say, it took fast forwarding to the year 2015, of August, for worker’s call-up for participation from 10+ years earlier to be answered. Of course, prior to thecollective when worker was traveling, sometimes they would ask a friend of ANews to hold down the fort, or at least that happened once from memory.

“As of this date (August 17th, 2015) Worker has officially resigned as the figurehead and moderator of anarchistnews.org. Worker will no longer be the operator of this site. That task will now be passed to an editorial crew named thecollective.” - worker

I’ve been part of thecollective since 2015 and maybe a bit before that, but I don’t recall exactly. I do know that it was really exciting to have a behind the scenes look into ANews, help the project, and converse with friends about anarchist stuff. Back in 2004, I remember using the website and registering an account, and slowly but surely as Infoshop dot org became more of a desert I started visiting and reading the news from Anarchist News dot org. Even before I was part of thecollective, I was patiently leaving some comments, adding articles over the years, and following closely along. The idea of a place to share anarchist ideas and have conversations about such ideas and things was and continues to be close to my heart.

As The Time of Reading All the Comments closed and the provocation of such tasks was bestowed upon thecollective, the baton was passed along to a group that has changed over the years, but largely remained. The rollers stopped, the images became all ANews stock, but the anonymous comments remained like newspaper boxes in the street for a bit. There have been a number of thecollective anarchists since then, internationally as well as based in North America, a handful remain from the start, some have left, and new friends have been joined. ANews has largely been associated with North America, even though the website has covered anarchist ideas from around the world, unlike many other locally focused counter-information. ANews has always been associated with the West Coast, but silliness aside, we’re actually more East Coast nowadays (east coast > west coast).

Since 2005, ANews has had the goal:

“The goal of anarchistnews.org is to provide a non-sectarian source for news about and of concern to anarchists. It is also to provide a location for community moderated discussion about such news.”

The tagline of being non-sectarian and posting + providing a space for commentary on all the anarchist news and not just the things we might favor in our time outside ANews is one aspect that I really find importance in. Ideally, I would hope that ANews provides a little bit of everything that anarchists are doing in the world, no matter your specific ideas, and if not one can easily submit their own articles for publication.

A common refrain one might hear about ANews is that “the comments suck!” ANews doesn’t keep logs and allows anonymous comments that could come from anywhere, like Tor, so yes – the comments can be bad and there are definitely a handful of specifically dedicated trolls, state actors, or just disgruntled anarchists trying to yell into the void that will bombard the website with their adverse musings. For the most part moderation is light and you can read more about it in the About Us, or genuinely inquire.

Overall, the general layout of the website hasn’t changed dramatically since 2015. A new iteration of ANews is quickly incoming that may or may not change much of the layout, but will greatly impact other areas of the website functionality. I’m most interested currently in creating a more beautiful and useful calendar of anarchist events around the world, and improving the overall usability and aesthetic of the website; along with some possible other features for registered users (emoji reactions, up/down user rankings of things that everyone will complain about and suck, but could be a fun experiment, and more!).

In the 2015 Topic of the Week: The Resignation of Worker – worker wrote about their greatest disappointment with ANews:

“My greatest disappointment in running anarchistnews.org is that it has witnessed this degradation of interesting activity of anarchists. The Internet does not inform interesting activity, it kills it stillborn. Most new anarchists fear the attention of the broader anarchist community because it almost never comes off as supportive (and when it does it tends to be in the style of NGO shit sandwich rhetorical kindness). The Internet is now at the center of how we communicate with each other and it means our communication is worse than ever.”

After resigning from reading all the comments, worker had more moments to sit in the back seat and focus on other anarchist stuff, but worker did still participate in the workings of ANews until their passing in February of 2020, they were just part of the larger group known as thecollective. Since Aragorn! walked on, thecollective has continued to say hello & goodbye to familiar faces and friends along the way. Outside of the podcast notes and participants, thecollective is largely anonymous and is not the previous-known face of Aragorn!

-thecollective_1.8

Rabbit (not verified) Wed, 08/28/2024 - 17:44

In reply to by thecollective

I appreciate this explanation and I do appreciate A! despite some major disagreements. Ideas and approaches aren't everything.

anon (not verified) Wed, 08/28/2024 - 19:17

In reply to by thecollective

"ANews doesn’t keep logs"

I do not believe this is the slightest. Prove it. Post your conf files.

"and allows anonymous comments that could come from anywhere, like Tor"

You say Tor like its use is a bad thing. Your site certainly has logging enabled and you use javascript extensively and external CDNs including Google. You should encourage all users to use tor because of the latter at the very least.

"Worker". Come on.

thecollective Thu, 08/29/2024 - 05:48

In reply to by anon (not verified)

We don't keep logs.

You are implying I'm saying Tor like it's a bad thing, so you're just putting words in my mouth and talking for me, but it turns out you're wrong. I'm frustrated and it's upsetting that some ppl choose to spam and troll the website via anonymous comments and Tor, but anonymous comments and the ability to use Tor services remain on ANews. With the coming ANews technology update, I think you'll rest easier with some things.
-thecollective_1.8

anon (not verified) Thu, 08/29/2024 - 08:19

In reply to by thecollective

"With the coming ANews technology update, I think you'll rest easier with some things."

Tell us you're going to implement more, heavy restrictions and controls without explicitly saying it.

thecollective Sat, 08/31/2024 - 04:11

In reply to by anon (not verified)

What I was referencing was freeing the website from the javascript and Google issues mentioned above.
-thecollective_1.8

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