TOTW: Anarchist Anti-Vaxxers

I'm not like other anti-vaxxers

We are, then, in a power that has taken control of both the body and life or that has, if you like, taken control of life in general – with the body as one pole and the population as the other. - Michel Foucault

For many in the West’s metropoles, a net is closing around the less-than-vaccinated. Not only are such conveniences as bars and restaurants now often behind the barrier of a vaccine card, increasingly even those working remotely are required to show proof of vaccination. Where this concentration of control will go is uncertain, there are certainly not-totally-coocoo-crazy visions of vaccine passports and unvaccinated fines but, these systems move slowly and in another year perhaps the seemingly unstoppable nature of Covid will have eroded enough vaccine-trust that this won’t be an issue.

Some, however, are not waiting for that erosion of trust to happen on its own. As stated in a reportback posted to anews, some anarchists attacked a Covid vaccination center in France and claimed

I want to fight against this capacity of the techno-industrial world to sacrifice everything to continue to exist. Also because I would like “us” to accept being sick, and even mortal, even if it goes without saying that I deplore many of the deaths of the Covid.

Through this framing they aimed not only to draw attention to something like general social control, but also to the very human sized and intimate nature of control and submission involved in Covid vaccination.

And so I’m interested in how anarchists are dealing with and fighting against the social control that is Covid vaccination. How are you avoiding it, attacking it? Are you receiving falsified vaccination cards? Running clandestine bookfairs which allow the unvaccinated? How are you distinguishing yourself from far-right anti-vaxxers? Is that even necessary? Are there any reasonable critiques, anarchist or otherwise, of mRNA vaccines on a biological level? How, as Anarchists, do we push action and critique of social and biological control beyond the kooks and conspiracy theorists? Or do we perhaps simply join them?

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Watching USA anarchists unite with liberals in support of mandatory vaccination has been sad. While most of the world have already seen Covid used as a pretext for an extreme furthering of authoritarianism the USA anarchists just have very little or no skepticism. It's quite frightening.

You have the emergence of what I call the 'Philip K Dick in the ass' society and science believing anarchists are just allowing it to happen without if fight.

You're about 500 years too late (or 5,000-8,000 if civ is the major bone of contention) on that point, as if you're somehow surprised capitalism works through human subjugation.

Vaxx or no vaxx, pandemic or no pandemic capitalism continues on with the expectation everything changes to remain the same (profitable). Nothing new about this. Most of us are totally dependent on renting our lives and using that rent on various goods and services as to be expected by social atomization in a complex, highly stratified society.

Abso-fucking-loutely! Its sad, but to me this is just a revaluation that most of these mfers who claim to be anarchists are really just edgy liberals. Its also reinforced my disdain and distrust of group think, making sacrifices for the collective “you have to comply with all the new mandates for the sake of the vulnerable, or else your selfish and want to kill immuneo compromised grandmas!”, the christian shame culture amongst liberals and the weaponization of shame, and so much more. The state has succeeded once again at recuperating leftists to support it by framing the issue as “either you support the official narrative about covid as put fourth by he CDC/WHO/Fauci/CNN etc. or if you so much as even question anything about covid then you’re a trump supporting wingnut and you should be relegated to 2nd class citizenship and barred from participating in society.

At some point you either respect people's body autonomy or you don't. I have personally observed much more of the latter. from anarchists and anarchist-feminists. This has been yet another way for people to sort out who is of good moral stock and who is unreasonable, mad/crazy spectrum, or others that don't fit in. It has been pointed out already many times on this site that there is not enough attention paid to the harmful consequences of social distancing, quarantining, etc. But I will just bring it up again. Lives have been lost to covid that never tested positive for covid. Anarchist lives have been lost. The damage is so deep right now it can be hard to remember how things were before. Its been a huge win for our enemies, and a huge blow for us.

There are more ways to express care than what the anarcho-care-ists would have us believe.

The fact that many anarchist group-houses went ahead and applied cdc and other media hyped guidelines and mandates for social distancing etc. when we don't even live and survive in the same units and ways as what the guidelines and mandates were written for is mind-boggling to me. A precariat childless 20 or 30 something distanced from their nuclear family has a different sociality than the nuclear families that the social distancing guidelines were intended for. We need each other to survive and connive and we need freedom of movement. The pandemic accelerated many along their path of work isolation and coupling.

All this is not to say: make everyday an anarchist super spreader event. But to push back on some of the very real and unnecessary social policing and control tendencies that have bubbled to the surface in some places.


6 months ago or so I suggested the idea of a bookfair that was set up with barriers like grocery stores have (lol). I imagine that there would still have been outrage. Some let the state determine what is essential, which is sad.

Also interestingly, or not, where I live its not just so-called right wingers that are anti-vax but just as many liberals, liberal and libertarianish hippies, naturo-homeopathy types, and wealthy people that are overprotective of their children or were already anti-vaxxers.

The state determines what is essential to maintaining capitalism's uninterrupted flow. Where is that flow maintained? Infrastructural chokepoints.

Why is this surprising?

People are dependent on others for water, electricity, supplies (toilet paper, food).

How certain work was also deemed essential: in early April, the Trump admin sat down to crunch numbers. All of is staying home last March rocked the economy to its knees (while we're always treated like we don't matter and marxists also think a revolition would do more damage than the situationist joke about laying around at home in bed not participating in the spectacle), it was asseased and deemed appropriate to let a projected 200-300,000 die off in the US in order for us to get back to being good little slaves of the economy.

Let that number sink in, for all of the insurretos out there.

*April 2020.

This Covid plan has revealed so much. You're on your own from birth to death. And if there's a god, I'm gonna be punching the fucker if I get the chance. Then I'll talk.

All I've been doing is criticizing any support I see for vaccine mandates among friends and family, and personally entering into covid safety conversations with new people and friends similar to ones I have about consent and STIs before sex. What else can you do?

Anarchists I know who are more supportive of vaccine pressure cite concern for the elderly, infirm, and those with pre-existing conditions. I think some on this site would reduce those concerns into "moralism" and brush it away, but I don't think that's dealing with the issue. Covid is a real life, clear example of how we are not actually just a collection of individuals who are solely responsible for how we individually handle ourselves. I don't want to take that in the direction of group duties and obligations which trump the individual, but it complicates things for me in a way I don't know what to do with.

This question isn't complicated for the left in most of Europe though, forcing someone to take a vaccine to work is wrong. We don't have the choice to work or go to school. Which anarchists are against in principle and recognize in and of themselves as much more deadly than Covid. So, forcing you to take a vaccine to do the things we are already against but are forced to do should be an absolute no brainer. Even the left, liberals and communists for the most part agree over here.

Everything else can be argued about if you like but there's a lot of issues that anarchists are just rolling over on that they shouldn't. For the most part I see this as anarchists caving in to liberal peer pressure.

Maybe it's just the circles I'm in, but I've never heard any anarchist say vaccines should be mandatory. Most of the anarchists here (maybe 80-90%) are pro-vaccination and would likely encourage someone else to get one, but I've never heard an anarchist come out in favor of compulsory vaccines or vaccine passports, etc. Is calling for state imposed vaccination something anyone here has witnessed among US anarchists? Or is the argument that any support of people getting vaccinated is the same as saying vaccines should be mandatory?

no, I don't think it's "just your circles".

I think you're correct and it's sad but a huge majority of the dissent here is just an exercise in strawman rhetorical bullshit, not of the conscious variety. people just ... not comprehending what's being said to them and then launching in to pompous ego rants with no basis in reality, all under the guise of anti-authoritarianism or "critical thinking".

for a bunch of reasons, mostly to do with how people don't even understand logical well enough to parse the distinction you just made there: like, that's a pretty fucking important distinction to do with autonomy and I've been watching SO MANY people not be able to tell the difference between an opinion and a mandate enforced by the state.

like ... how the fuck are you an anarchist if you can't even see the difference there? lol it's really sad

also ... it's the apocalypse? seems likely we will be confronted with thousands more very difficult choices, just like these covid ones. buckle up!

This is shit, I have seen a decent number of anarchists say similar and many veer toward that direction specially during the beginning. And if you want proof like a commenter below you mentioned, go to Reddit. I am the last person who claims there is an outrage when none exists. Also, we are on Anarchistnews where the majority of the people here will obviously be against mandates so yeah bro.

Those comments make me feel sick. The covid years have showed to me that lots of people were not what I believed them to be which is kind of sad and isolating experience.

Internet comments aren't the whole of reality.

Perhaps you need to adjust your lense, your frame and measure such reflection from an unreal world (the internet) with a grain of salt.

No one's juat one thing, and certainly not over some split second moment in their life. I started out mormon. Thank goodness I was able to explore out of that box.

Poster who said the consent/sti metaphor again.

I'm not aware that much of the Left in europe is saying things like this, I'll have to look into it. I agree with what you're saying, but I'm immediately assuming I'd receive a rebuttal of being "selfish" or something if I argue with liberals that forcing vaccines to work is wrong, given your arguments. Maybe that's just what we're up against and I have to just deal with it, fair enough if so.

But I think if my fear is true, then it represents something in the air here in the US. It's some kind of generic support with helping the worser-off, the less privileged, etc. Like, the social justice politics are so infused in the culture now, that privilege is thrown around as an insult wherever it can be. I think this is why I still gravitate to Situationist stuff, even though it's half a century old at this point. They and the autonomous movements they influenced pointed to the important of first-person experience: of how YOU live your life and what YOU do with it.

But, outside of self-help books they read, that attitude is pretty unpopular among the politicos I see in the world, and it seems like they're more of them every day >_>

This is the most thoughtful, nuanced comment I've seen on anews in years. Too bad it is unlikely to generate much discussion.

I too have just been voicing my opinion that mandatory vaccines (like curfews, like police enforcing how many people can be inside my house) are wrong, while also trying to encourage my family and friends to get vaccinated and engaging in my own version of social distancing that *does* make sense for the "sociality" of the community I actually live in . I think it's possible to care about both safety on a community level and freedom, but I don't see a lot of people out there expressing support for both these days. The whole left, even the anarchist adjacent left, where I live is clamouring for vaccine passports and the right is touting absurd conspiracy theories about the vaccine magnetizing your body and shit. Feels pretty lonely, and I wish there was something else out there but it seems like a lot of anarchists are just kind of hiding and hoping the whole covid moment will go away.

>How are you avoiding it, attacking it?

I'm not. I got vaccinated, I'm not fussing over showing my proof of vaccination any more than I have to write my social security number or produce a driver's license or passport as forms of ID for things. Apparently some anarchists are getting on the sovereign citizen bandwagon a bit late but much like people pitching a fit over mask mandates, wringing one's hands over proof of vaccination in a world of so much control is kind of losing the plot. Not to mention that the situation in the US is so loose that meaningful "social control" through vaccination for COVID seems like it will be about as weak as previous controls for not getting the flu vaccine or other vaccinations.

In the meantime, I'm weathering another wave of infections in my "metropole of the West" by watching ill will continue to post articles by georgio "crazy george" agamben and hoping myself and my loved ones don't have to "accept being sick" with covid if possible.

Vaccinations are some kind of unacceptable control but dying alone in a poorly staffed hospital is true freedom?
Anti vaxx anarchists are so incoherent...
The government is controlling way more lives by making accessing medical care a debt prison.

Jesus fucking christ do you not consider the factor of morphostatic boosting and resilience. Vaccines are one useful factor but it should not be the ONLY one. If you put all your eggs in that basket in an age of clear diminishing returns in regards to the vaccine effect(the need for boosters and breakthrough cases) you are asking for trouble.

James Lyndsay used the term medical Lysenkoism to describe this pathological single factor process. I happen to agree with him on THIS issue.

No one said vaccines are the only protective factor. They are one though, just like masking and avoiding congregate settings. Most of the people dying of covid in the US are unvaccinated. It's easy to be anti control regime until you or someone you love needs an ICU bed. Spoiler alert... you'll be in the ER waiting till someone upstairs dies. Anarchists like preparing for edgy apocalypse scenarios... this is one. Get vaccinated. Live to fight another day.

> Vaccinations are some kind of unacceptable control but dying alone in a poorly staffed hospital is true freedom?
> Anti vaxx anarchists are so incoherent...

No u.

If you end up at the ICU it's first and foremost because you called for the State's help (i.e. 911, or whatever the Covid emergency line is). That's a no-brainer that if you got symptoms, all you gotta do is self-isolate for 14 days, and let your friends/family know in case it really worsens.

Your assumption that anyone who's got Covid will end up on a ventilator is dumb. Only a tiny fraction of the population with preexisting health conditions have to.

Go away back to Reddit, you chump.

The vaccinated & unvaccinated also have cancer, get in car wrecks, step on broken glass, fall off rooftops, have strokes, suffer brain aneurysms and all the other reasons someone might go to hospital for emergency care. Even a small % with covid19 can take up all the beds in hospitals. You are aware there isn't a hospital bed for every person, even in the best of times?

Person above you was referring to ICU capacity. Are you implying ER or ICU?

It's well known the US healthcare system is a mess (of both care, costs, and bureacracy). What is your point trying to say exactly? Hospitals already do hospital shit with known existing limitations? Okay...

Since the limitations are so well known it should not be that difficult to extrapolate and see that if ERs & ICUs are at capacity with Covid patients there is no room for all the other non covid emergencies & other serious medical issues. So only a small % of the population needs to be seriously ill with covid for this to happen.

i find it amazing that so many people seem completely ignorant of exactly the point being made by 07:32. people with non-covid emergencies are being turned away due to overflow of covid cases. it happened last year in the u.s., it happened earlier in india (and probably many poorer countries), and it is starting to happen again in the u.s.

no anarchist is going to support mandates or what have you. that is a completely different issue than how individuals choose to behave in this context. take precautions, or don't. just don't say shit when your non-precaution-taking-ass (or anyone you care about) needs hospital care and can't get it.

fucking dogmatic ignorance.

Businesses, schools, places of employment, countries...etc requiring people to be vaccinated or abide by some other requirements is an old practice. People already abide by these practices of control without a second thought. The "reportback commentators" have despite what they may think. The covid vaccination is the least of my concerns of "social control."

When was the last time that happened?

Polio!? That thing had a 30% by-case mortality rate among adults of different age groups, for fuck's sake.

Here you're talking about a virus that's slightly more dangerous than the seasonal flu, where the near totality of its death toll was in people over 70 year old, or people with previous weakening conditions (mainly diabetes and cardio-respiratory issues). The overall mortality rate of any Covid strain was ridiculous compared to all the other historical deadly viruses.

people patting themselves on the back for following NPR's orders have become super spreaders over the spring-to-summer, unmasking, returning to life as usual with the CDC's blessing. not in opposition to (as its often framed), but alongside the unvaxxed. all the while covid has and will continue to mutate inside them, undermining the vaccines' efficacy soon, and ushering in new waves of cases making the past year and a half look pleasant by many measures.

maybe I along with millions will get chronically ill from the pfizer shot. maybe I along with millions will get chronically ill with the latest version of covid. maybe I along with millions will sooner or later get a covid version so bad, or take so many experimental vaccines, that my body will implode and put an end to my short time here.

but what can I do? I guess living in as healthy a way that I can with what Ive got, and never becoming so smug as to think Ive got it all figured out. I guess doing everything I can to study and spend time with those I care for over work and those I dont. wearing the best mask I can get in public, if there's a good chance it will keep me and the ones I care about a little bit safer (which so far it seems to), is no a big deal, but self-righteously shitting on anti-vaxxers, as if doing right by the beneficent saviors of Science and Technology, seems loathsome knowing the hellscape that is society still exists.

Isn’t it kinda sus tho that they need to go to such extraordinary coercive lengths to get us to take this vaccine?

Like if this were a real plague and bodies were really dropping like flies, it would be self evident and everyone would be lining up and there wouldn’t be this need for such an extraordinary campaign of non-stop 24/7 mass media propaganda plus all this extra shit they’re doing now with the “vaxxports”. Seriously, if it weren’t for only some people still wearing masks and plastic partitions being set up in certain places, walking around I would never have guessed we are under pandemic.

Like, if this was polio, you wouldn’t need to tell me twice about a vaccine.

Also, when polio was a thing, you took the vaccine once and you were one and done. With covid it seems we’re being strung along for one vaccine after another, potentially taking monthly boosters for the rest of our lives.

Other vaccines have boosters. Just because you don't know or seem to remember or didn't know doesn't meam this is new.

They try to predict what are going to be the dominant flu strains each year when making the shot. Are we being strung along there? Or are you just fearmongering around Covid?

The mRNA vaccines are nothing like the Inactivated Polio Vaccine. The IPV is a traditional vaccine that works on time tested principles (inactivated virus injected, which kicks your immune system into gear. The virus is then killed when the host is infected with active virus)
The Covid vaccines are the very first mRNA vaccines ever brought to market. EVER. They haven't even gone through the required approval processes to be used anywhere in the world, and several of the developers of the technology say they shouldn't be being used in the way they are.
The boosters for the Covid vaccines are likely to be necessary for the rest of your life. They are also likely to cause Antibody-Dependent Enhancement in the vaccinated.

There have been clinical trials going on with MRNA since the early 90's, for cancer and other ailments.

You're only thinking this is somehow recent technology because of the recent Operation Warp Speed during the pandemic.

I didn’t say this was new technology, I said these vaccines are the first EVER mRNA vaccines to be brought to market and the first EVER used on humans on a large scale.
One of the originators of mRNA vaccine tech (from the 80s) is telling people not to take these vaccines.

That's cos he's jealous cos he missed out on the mass profits the research machine made possible by making mrna infallible, cheaer and more efficient.

Obviously, that’s a possibility, and if he was the only one saying the stuff he’s saying, then I may tend to agree with your assumption.
But he’s not the only one. And if you look into the warnings being offered by he and others, they seem very plausible, or at least plausible enough not to run out and get the vaccine if you’re not in a high risk group. Especially considering the extremely low risk of dying from Covid if you’re not old or obese.

"low risk of dying from Covid if you’re not old or obese."

or have diabetes, or high blood pressure, or any of the other comorbidities that probably 70% of americans have.

All I'm reading with this comment is you're ok if fat people and diabetics die? This anti vaxx shit has mild eugenics written all over it. Most of your parents vaccinated you against childhood disease. Rejecting allopathic public health incentives after a lifetime of benefitting from them is privileged and ableist. Get the damn shot.

If there is going to be any sustained anarchy beyond civilization there will have to be some steady state human wellness. I got vaxxed and it may well have co-factored in the aspergers that I have along with some of the nervous ticks that I have to this day. It also didn't stop me and my brother from getting chicken pox.

Vaccines did their thing but one should be frank about the toxicological tradeoffs and potentially discuss a world beyond them on a large scale(anarchy will never be societarian). Deal with the diseases of civilization for what they are, OF CIVILIZATION. Vaccines can still have a marginal place going forward in a more libertarian-anarchic world but not at the current level where they are given sacrosanct status. I also suspect we are seeing the diminishing returns of their power via the rise of boosters.

It's time to create networks of holistic health. There is nothing Eugenic about this at least in terms of eugenics as a societal structure. Epigenetic refinement is not necessarily a bad thing.

No you.

Holistic health, also non-consumeristic homeopathic treatments and conventional trauma surgery complete with anaesthesia would keep 99 % (informal approx. statistic) of any future population in good health, body and soul. But as you say, deal with Civilization's diseases by dealing with Civilization and not the individual, and only then will the benefits of epigenetic refinement occur.
Being apolitical, if I am offered a remedy for free which will prevent possible death or even minor pain and illness, I will take it.

If you’re seeing eugenics in my comment, the vaccines must already be affecting your cognition.

I’m not anti vax, and I m not “ok” with fat diabetics dying. I happen to think they are the few people that should be taking these vaccines, because they are potentially at a serious risk of dying from this shit.

Read the comments. If anyone is selfish or privileged, it’s you terrified fools rushing out to get a vaccine you don’t need, that is probably going to make the pandemic worse in the long run.

Just today mainstream news media has finally started admitting there may be serious questions with the vaccines. (See BBC News and Bloomberg News)

This, after all the bullshit posturing and bullying of anyone who asked questions.

These mother fuckers should hang, but next they’ll be telling you how they asked the hard questions, and exposed what big pharma was hiding.

Fuck them and fuck you

My "cultural construct" got vaccinated, but that wasn't my Dasein, that's individual and unique, and doesn't entangle itself with the commonalities of herd obedience.

My meat husk got vaccinated, but my spirit roams wild and free across internet forums, unbound to the swivel chair my dead materialist weight remains sitting in.

"My meat husk got vaccinated" :) lol, yes, in humorous layman terminology that sums up my situation. Seriously though, I had the phizer and its no fizzer. I had a flu shot which had worse side effects.
I am wanting to introduce a new conspiracy theory which rings truer than the existing ones concerning China, and that is that Big Pharma are actually the designers of the virus. Any thoughts?

I think the virus could have absolutely escaped from a lab with shit handling procedures or into animals in close proximity to humans from a lab. Designed? I doubt it, the pharma companies don't need the extra revenue, that doesn't mean they won't take it though...obviously. And it also doesn't mean that the world isn't going through a more "natural" extinction cycle, just is totally possible humans are more culpable.

And also, researchers would likely be able to tell if it had engineering hallmarks and at least a decent sized group would be out there saying shit or getting murdered before they could.

Hmm, true, just a sudden brainstorm I had blaming big pharma after I heard one company netted 2.4 billion from vaccine sales. But my logic was erring, engineering would be so obvious by studying the genome sequencing.

the most plausible theory is it that it leaked from the Wuhan Institute of Virology itself, or from one of their scientists who had returned from field research. initially the WHO reported it unlikely, but there are more recent inquiries that pressure applied by the Chinese government resulted in that conclusion.

Do you have proof? It was not determined to have been lab created. It may take years to find out. We may never know.

This is the virologist from the lab, who studies bat-derived coronaviruses to the point she is nicknamed Batwoman:

If i could find that out pretty easily, the whole thing isn't some giant, spooky mystery.

Finally got around to reading the link, very interesting and bookmarked to show to some friends, nice.

For those arguing for bodily autonomy, where does your body end and the rest of everything begin?

How was it that you came to understand yourself as a wholly separate entity?

For that matter, how do any of us come to know what we know? Or come to knowledge? Or understanding? How do you judge a true fact from a false lie?

Anarchists are good at questioning the received knowledge from society, but are not great at then figuring out what is going on according to themselves and their perceptions. Mostly, it seems, anarchists reject received knowledge but have no idea about coming to understanding of useful knowledge that is not just acceptance or rejection of official sources.

Well of course, my body starts and ends where state mandated doctors and professionals tell me it does!

This lack of serious engagement with these questions keeps you playing the fool.

The point is why are anarchists taking this pov? Your sarcastic response is the real, actual response of the above commenter and of course it is not the case. The point is these dividing lines are hardly set in stone, thus what is an individual?

I choose to think that my excretion flowing down the pipes is still a part of my body, and that I care deeply about the fate of my little poops. But it's arbitrary, or at least the tools for answering these questions for ones self are so alien to most who've been infected by post-millennial understanding of "knowledge" that proposed answers feel alien or arbitrary. Instead whatever messaging gets repeated the most online, or irl by the 2 or 3 people one knows, becomes the truth. Anyways, I prefer sarcasm.

Not me suggesting deciding for anyone else. Just me asking has anyone considered that the reason an anarchist thinks they are an individual has more to do with prevailing notions of "bodies" as seen from Science and so-called Western culture than any actual reflection of the world as it is?

Besides individuals, whose boundaries do certainly extend beyond bodies, what else is there? Phantasms! Typhos!

An understanding of selfhood larger than an anarchist one justifies the authority of the herd in some way. Restrain the cancerous dissident who threatens the collective!

"The idea that individuals require community for a worthwhile life is distinctly normal/neurotic, and may not apply to psychotics, aka people who have not internalised a master-signifier, and thus do not imagine they are part of a unitary social-symbolic order."

"It has been said of communitarians that they want Salem without the witch-hunts. In reality, communitarianism always involves sacrificing real people to empty abstractions – or sacrificing some for the good of others. They want Salem with the witch-hunts. Communitarianism denies that individual lives have their own coherence and trajectory, instead ramming supposed collective
functions into them. It is nearly always the vulnerable, outliers, and social outsiders who are sacrificed for a social ingroup."

"I write this, knowing it may be my last work. The state is slowly killing me through unbearable
levels of stress. It may disappear me into the gulag of the infected, or require compromises I cannot
give. Or it may disappear me for writing this piece."

Dude, next time don't start your text with that generic paranoid conspiracist drama, lol

Covid State sure is a new level of totalitarianism, and many of us lost a lot to it, tho don't be a snowflake. The State likes the snowflakes; they're easily manageable, and can be instrumentalized (like the Qmorons).

"For those arguing for bodily autonomy, where does your body end and the rest of everything begi
How was it that you came to understand yourself as a wholly separate entity? "

Straight up totalitarian logic here. Confusing the biological aspect of the universe with "society" or the "community"... Every human body except those put on any kind of life support system, is autonomous... AS FAR as any living creature is an autonomous, self-contained organism.

Do we need to breath air, drink water, to survive? SUUUURE, dumbo. But that doesn't make us intertwined or fused with other bodies. That would be confusing different states of biological processes as one single whole, that doesn't really exist.

There are individuals regardless of how dependent they are to broader natural aspects of the universe. The fact we are dependent upon these doesn't make us into THESE. We are not the fucking ocean even if we got a similar level of water in the body, and we aren't gas being even if we rely on air... This is such stupid bullshit

I'm selfish as hell & I don't want to die from a respiratory illness so I got the vaccine, no one had to force me. Nor do I expend any energy trying to get others to vax up, or even tell them to put on a mask in the grocery store.

Questioning all of this is what we should be doing, totally agree with that. However, whether society continues as it is or whether society falls apart, there is and will be suffering. I try to keep that in mind, no matter what we do there is suffering. I try to live minimizing my contributions to that suffering, that is all.

Enjoy becoming a medically-dependent “booster” slave.

State gets to implement internal passport system for control and Pfizer gets to sell you mandatory boosters for epic profits.

This is about bio power and technocratic control. You’re a fool if you think this has anything to do with a virus you had a more than 98% chance of surviving.

I am also a slave to breathing & eating & shitting.

Do you have an actual analysis other than merely "tHe sTAte iS baD!"?

Not all of us have a problem with it or think we are in post-natalized slavery. The state is bad not physical reality unless you are an anti-natalist sad boi.

You seem to be experiencing Anal Terror, SirEinzige. That you aren't a sad boi is good, however. Hopefully the vaccine will keep you alive forever so you can continue to share your very important thoughts with anarchists.

Would you rather die a slow and sickly death from covid or live long enough to have your life-force sucked out by the decades of slavery necessary to keep the beast fed?
(People in the third world have to do both)

I’ve for sure already had covid multiple times and I am perfectly fine, thnx to simply taking care of myself and trusting my immune system to do the right thing

me: gets covid, waits for immune system to do the right thing

my immune system: does the wrong thing and floods my system with cytokines

my gravestone: "they trusted their immune system"

do what you want anon, but I wouldn't trust my immune system to "do the right thing" every time without intervention. also, fuck off with the conspiracy shit

Can anyone point to a single government mandate in the US for vaccines beyond actual government employees? Seems to me it is the free marketeers choosing to impose mandates within their sphere of business, just like "no shirt, no shoes, no entry".

Mandates are authoritarian. Choices need not be.

as he is still alive. Covid is clearly linked to functional morphostatic failings. There are things you can do about that. There are those who have a well functioning morphostatic machine who have not gotten cold or flu in years who may well have been exposed to the 'virus' but not infected or if they were infected they are asymptomatic or lightly symptomatic. These types are very comparable to those who have the vaccine but still get infected.

What you ultimately want is morphostatic commensalistic diversity that includes the vaccine and people who WANT to take it. Germ Theory dominant science is completely retarded on this matter because they do not acknowledged terrain theory at all.

The idiot who brought up diseases responding to my post. It was stupid but certainly not deletable. To answer his Qs he brought up a number of diseases from ebola to HIV. The reality of these infectious diseases does not undermine a cellular/germ balanced terrain theory. Some infections are accute and highly toxic like ebola and in the case of 8ch Ivy it's a co-factoral oxidation disorder that is largely predicted by risk factors of oxidation.

None of this changes the fact that morphostasis matters.

Hey Doc Einzige, I'm the idiot who knows all the diseases in reply to you, thx, it didn't deserve to be deleted, I was just pointing out the plethora of pathogens gracing our beautiful planet who make sure that the anthropocentric narrative always gets hungup by the original inhabitants of this planet. I stand for the indigenous germs of this world who are being subjected to a germocidal pogrom by th humanist villains of this planet.

New variant —-> more cases —-> lockdowns/restrictions —-> leaky vaccines —-> new variant—-> more cases —-> lockdowns/restrictions —-> leaky vaccines —-> new variant —-> and so on...

It’s called Antibody Dependent Enhancement. Look it up.

Listen: covid barely mutated for a year. They started vaccinating with a rushed, leaky and suboptimal medical product and now all of a sudden there’s a whole Greek alphabet of new variants and somehow that’s MY fault for being unvaccinated?


alright, I'll bite - I looked up ADE and couldn't find any sources that seemed credible to me that said the current covid vaccines are causing it, but I did find a bunch of people and institutions that have tested for it or studied how covid is affecting vaccinated people vs. non-vaccinated people that claim that this isn't an issue.

OP is asking for anarchist critiques of vaccines, but i'm not sure how this is anarchist - you seem to have no critique of science, you just think the science is wrong, and you seem to think that by regurgitating opaque buzzwords you can scare people into agreeing with you (if only they knew the truth!).

The current situation in Israel suggests ADE is a possible problem with the Covid vaccines, not to mention that Dr. Walensky, director of the CDC, said just today that the people who got early vaccines were at an "increased risk of severe disease and complications", due to the waning effectiveness of the vaccines.

I'm pretty sure this is exactly how ADE would present itself, and it's why they're stumbling over themselves to get a third shot into the vaccinated as quickly as they can. I believe there is potential that this will never end. Constantly chasing the previous shot with another, and creating a deadlier situation for the vaccinated with each additional shot.

It's not like ADE is unheard of, or some conspiracy theory in itself. It's happened in the past with RSV vaccines, an early Measles vaccine, Feline Immunodeficiency Virus vaccines, a Dengue virus vaccine, vaccines for feline coronavirus, and I'm assuming many others.

In each of these instances, the vaccine created an increased risk for the vaccinated (including causing death in several people and animals).

If any of the above vaccines would have been rolled out as fast as the Covid vaccine, with no approval and no large scale human trials, I'm quite sure the death toll would have been astronomical. This, of course, is the danger in using unproven vaccines on such a large scale. And mandating them in several instances.

If people were dropping dead left and right, the risk may have been worth it, but we're talking about a fairly benign virus in the grand scheme of things. Up to this point, it hasn't been too much deadlier than the annual flu, especially when considering how the cases and deaths have been tallied for this specific virus. (and there is no shortage of first responders weighing in on what they see as fraud in regards to the case/death count, along with the fact that the PCR test is an absolutely inaccurate and unreliable way to test for any virus, but don't take my word for it, the inventor of the PCR test said so himself)

Is that this ultimately goes for ALL viruses. All viruses have been verified by indirect means outside of cellular isolation and purification. The Perth Group made this point on HIV but it goes for all of them.

MY VIEW is that viruses don't exist at all. What does exist are a manifold amount of endo and exotoxins from various environments(animal, plant, human production ect) combined with biological stress as theorized by Hans Selye. The mediating factor of various viral diseases are vesicles not exogenous viral agents that, supposedly, are neither living nor dead. If one combines the vesicle pathway structure with toxicological perturbance and stress response then viral diseases begin to make a lot more sense beyond the erroneous germ theory assumptions of a discrete infectious/disease causal agent. The field of toxicology is in the process of proving my point. See the link below.

Hence I agree with your point on PCR being a bad basis for the existence of any virus but you better be prepared to back that up with a meta level argument against virology and its presumed exogenous agents in general. I argue that non of the exist even thought the diseases clearly do. They are simply toxicological in nature. This can also apply to inter-animal species spillover.

"all of a sudden there’s a whole Greek alphabet of new variants and somehow that’s MY fault for being unvaccinated?"
alpha, beta, gamma, delta, epsilon, zeta, eta, theta, ioto, kappa, lambda, mu, nu, zi, howzat, so many more to go, hahahaaa, its only just started, the Germ Liberation Army , GLA are on the march, viva la revolution, you anthropocentric humanist scum are gonna pay for you cruel destruction of the very life forms which created you all those millions of years ago.

Seriously anon 04:16, joking aside, there is a total lack of critical thinking on the part of humanists to consider finite progress and reduced global populations. Its startling to hear representatives of government and media fanning the flames of emotional hysteria concerning death rates in countries that have 10 times the number of sustainable people, as if it is a crime against humanity that 80 and 90 year olds are dying in countries which have the highest levels of infant poverty and death from malnutrition.
This emotive explosion of mass neurosis can only be explained by considering the totalitarian psychological makeup of a collective submission to authority, of its underdeveloped values and its anxiety loaded insecurities having been allowed to become ruled and manipulated by the powers that be their masters.

The 80 and 90 year olds sadly passing reminded me of stories concerning some indigenous customs. During harsh times when they realized they were a burden to their clan and threatened its survival, the infirm and old perps, in the darkness of nighttime whilst the clan slept, would voluntarily sneek out into the blizzard or sandstorm or in the direction of the local lion pride.
Is this logical selflessness and sacrifice a testament to the realities of sustainability and an example of how far, in contrast, the Western humanist paradigm, with its selfserving narcissistic social emphasis, has driven the whole planet towards environmental catastrophy?

As civilization has developed it has made humans more and more reliant on it. This can be seen for example in a growing dependence on agriculture as wild areas were domesticated. In regards to the idea of health a similar phenomenon is transpiring.

Perhaps there was a time when one had the means to live a healthy life within ones own means. A simple intuitive knowledge/instinct of how to treat ones ailments with that found in one's surroundings. Not only has access to these treatments been limited in the same manner as access to food, but the ailments, both what they are and how they affect us (their meaning) has changed.

If one wants to be healthy today the only option is to get the vaccine, and even then one will still fall short of this ideal. Irregardless of the severity of symptoms, the conditions of disease created by civilization, or its specific element mass society, creates a new terrain by which even if these old means were still around (and the case could be made they are still in some form such as homeopathy or herbalism) they would not be/aren't enough to deal with the problem.

In many ways I think covid and other diseases/plagues that have emerged due to civilized conditions (such as the organization of cities or now with global transport) represent the challenge that civilization poses. The only means by which covid can be combated is civilized means, "modern medicine", masks, vaccines etc. And yet it is the very production of these means that contribute to the conditions which have produced this crisis.

While the easy answer is to say that the removal of these conditions is the best way to combat these crisis, de-civilizing/de-massifying in order to combat future crisis however still leaves us with the current crisis of civilized diseases that have already proliferated. And this is applicable not only to the single issue of covid, but is then compounded by the multitude of crisis we find ourselves within, such as climate catastrophe, water pollution, decreased biodiversity etc.

And even if this were an easy answer the means by which to get there are not known, and may even be non-existent. While there are those who like to celebrate attack, whether through property destruction or violence directed towards humans, as effective, these acts, such as the destruction of some vaccines, are as symbolic as "non-violent" means in the grand scheme of things.

Ultimately if there is any question around the vaccine that any of us can meaningfully answer, since to state ones opposition to the vaccine or even just its mandates is ultimately a meaningless gesture, it is simply whether or not one will get the vaccine. And while systemically this is no more or less symbolic the the destruction of vaccines, or banners with nice slogans, it can perhaps change how we live our own lives in relation to these systems.


i hate the expansion of biopower made possible by this pandemic over this techno dystopian hellscape that is our prison, i dont support govt mandates ABOUT ANYTHING, but i also have multiple immuno compromised people in my fam so all im hearing is a bunch of healthy selfish people willing to kill my family members so you can go to black out and puke all over yourselves at a fucking bar or some shit, which pretty much means i cant be part of those movements, so thats dope i guess? apparently cancer patients and hiv poz people arent welcome in the world of healthy fashionista anarchism anymore. gotta love that its anarchists who are now all about eugenics and "getting rid of the useless eaters" so at least the nazis have some more friends now... at least im more of an individualist anarchist so i have no problem with the fact that to protect my fam ill gladly watch you fuckers die. some fellow travellers lmao

You seem very upset that people are not getting vaccinated and/or that they are living normally, if you're opposed to mandates why does it upset you people are living without them? What do you see as the desirable outcome?

I'm also curious since you appeal for us to think of people with cancer and hiv, what do you make of those with these conditions or similar who also refuse not only the mandates but vaccines and medication itself?

people only cared about Vaccinations when the Media and Celebrities made it a right vs left morality issue

now the left or the perceived left can virtue signal about the selfishness of not getting a vaccine and claim moral superiority over the right or Trump supporters

and anarchists are too afraid of getting any negative feedback so they go along with the liberal plan of virtue signalling instead of practicing what they claim to support of body autonomy

this is about attention and social media credibility in being the most progressive and the most moral superior while maintaining authoritarian thought and action

Re govt. mandates and social control:
Everyone suggesting vaccine mandates are minor in comparison with other social controls, or are similar to other controls already in place, so "whats the big deal? ", seem to be missing the fact that this is not only about the "minor inconvenience" of a simple injection. This is about what they can do to you if you refuse (for any reason) to do what they've decided is best for you. No flying, no working, no socializing, no entertainment, no shopping for food, potentially no interstate travel, etc. What anarchist in their right mind would support such authority over individuals? Also, the social control is very apparent in the general population. All over social/traditional media, people advocating for cutting ties with the unvaccinated. Divorcing unvaccinated spouses, dropping friends and family, and for what? The unvaccinated pose no additional risks for the vaccinated. If you're vaccinated, you can still get the virus from anyone, vaccinated or not. This seems to be more about the vaccinated punishing those that they see as somehow "selfish" .
Re the assertion that the govt. hasn't actually mandated the vaccine:
They have absolutely mandated it for certain sectors and public unions, not to mention the fact that they've pressured private business to mandate it for their employees and customers. The only reason this hasn't been mandated for all of U.S. citizens is because the federal govt. knows that there are too many legal obstacles preventing them from doing it, so they're having the private sector require it.
Re "only the selfish are unvaccinated":
Due to the nature of the MRNA vaccines currently available, there is sound science to back up the possibility that it's doing far more damage in the long run to vaccinate the majority of the population. The current vaccines don't kill the virus when contracted, they just dull the impact the virus has on the vaccinated individual. The current vaccines also don't prevent the vaccinated individual from spreading the disease to other vaccinated and unvaccinated people. The problem this creates is that in addition to allowing the virus to mutate as it travels from person to person, it may artificially allow the virus to mutate into a much deadlier variant as it travels through the vaccinated population, because the vaccine prevents it from killing the host. Nature typically sees virus mutate into less deadly versions for all sorts of reasons, but mostly because if it becomes too deadly it doesn't give itself the ability to travel, and survive. if it kills it's host immediately, the virus itself would die off very quickly.
I think a decent argument could be made that only the most at risk people should be taking these vaccines. Otherwise, we could be creating a easier path to a much deadlier variant, as well as potentially creating a situation where the whole population may actually need the vaccines in the future, or face certain death once they've contracted one of the new deadlier variants.
Re the vaccines slowing the spread or creating herd immunity:
Israel has the highest vaccination rate of any country in the world at the moment. They're currently seeing a huge spike in cases and deaths, and 58% of the hospitalized there are fully vaccinated. Meanwhile, the vaccines have been mostly withheld from the Palestinians, yet the Palestinian territories are seeing a moderate rise in cases and deaths (look it up on Reuters Covid Tracker) Israel-527 infections per 100K people reported last 7 days. Palestinian Territories- 85 infections per 100K people reported last 7 days.

This is not as cut and dry as people would have you believe, and the science is not nearly as settled as is portrayed by the media. Anyone deeply researching this will come away with more questions than answers.

This is potentially a medical Lysenkoist disaster that is unfolding. The Israel data is very discouraging to those who believe in the vaccine. This is the kind of thing that could shake the belief foundations of science if this thing backfires. The jabs really should primarily be taken by risk groups.

This is all a manifestation of orthodox germ theory. These retard scientists have simply gone out of their way to consider revising the old cellular theory into an integrated terrain theory of infectious disease where you take and combine the best of germ theory and cellular theory.

Indubitably, Sir.

Let us continue with cerebro-Lysenkoist statistico exploration.

There are about 30,000 Lysenkoist related deaths per measured-value by germs, this number is not disputed. (1)

U.S. population 328 million as of January 2018. (2)

Do the math: 0.00915% of the population dies from Lysenkoist related actions each year.

Statistically speaking, this is insignificant. It's not even a rounding error.

What is not insignificant, however, is a breakdown of those 30,000 deaths:

• 22,938 (76%) are by germ which can't be prevented by Lysenkoist laws (3)

• 987 (3%) are by law enforcement, thus not relevant to Lysenkoist Control discussion. (4)

• 489 (2%) are accidental (5)

So no, "Lysenkoist violence" isn't 30,000 annually, but rather 5,577... 0.0017% of the population.

Still too many? Let's look at location:

298 (5%) - St Louis, MO (6)

327 (6%) - Detroit, MI (6)

328 (6%) - Baltimore, MD (6)

764 (14%) - Chicago, IL (6)

That's over 30% of all Lysenkoist germs. In just 4 cities.

This leaves 3,856 for for everywhere else in America... about 77 deaths per state. Obviously some States have higher rates than others

Yes, 5,577 is absolutely horrific, but let's think for a minute...

But what about other deaths each year?

70,000+ die from a drug overdose (7)

49,000 people die per year from the flu (8)

37,000 people die per year in traffic fatalities (9)

Now it gets interesting:

250,000+ people die each year from preventable medical errors. (10)

You are safer in Chicago than when you are in a hospital!

610,000 people die per year from heart disease (11)

Even a 10% decrease in cardiac deaths would save about twice the number of lives annually of all Lysenkoist-related deaths (including suicide, law enforcement, etc.).

A 10% reduction in medical errors would be 66% of the total Lysenkoist deaths or 4 times the number of criminal homicides.

Simple, easily preventable, 10% reductions!

We don't have a Lysenkoist problem... We have a political agenda and media sensationalism and retard scientists problem.

I've never trusted the use of statistics to support any theory 8n my entire life. I'm certain the Palestinians, by being completely sanctioned out of medical resources and willingly not participating in the global war against Covid, only test a fraction of their population compared to Israel. Also, Israel has one of the most aged nations in the world.

Yet you’re using statistics to support your point?

The age of Israelis and the testing stats of the Palestinians.

Even with the Palestinian/Israeli info removed from the post, it’s still absolutely on point.

These morally superior anarcho authoritarians are mysterious

Why don't you pick on 14:09's use of statistics which was 100 times more intense than my petty little mention of anecdotal mathematical heresay concerning Israel and Palestine?

Because I’m not necessarily opposed to using stats to support a theory, I was merely responding to your opposition to using them.

Though I can admit that stats and numbers can definitely be used to prove truths that don’t exist, and incomplete stats could certainly factor into the Palestinian Covid numbers, but the available numbers are all we have to work off of.

What are your thoughts on the rest of the post, in regards to mandates, social control, potentially dangerous vaccines (for the long haul), etc?

Also, because 14:09 is waste of space and time as far as I can tell.

I'm opposed to modern medicine totally, though my "cultural identity construct" has been vaccinated, my Dasein remains aloof and strongly independent of all authority.
I also feel that epigenetics and the Lamarkian/Lysenko theories only play a tiny part in the cellular genetic evolutionary narrative.

Precisely, Perp. The noumenal self, its concepts, and also the objects in the world to which the concepts are applied have a shared, internal essence: the self-resemblance at the basis of identity. Lysenkotional thought is analogical; its concern is to establish a correspondence between these symmetrically structured domains. The faculty of judgment is the policeman of analogy, assuring that each of these terms is honestly itself, and that the proper correspondences obtain. In thought its end is truth, in action justice. The weapons it wields in their pursuit are limitive distribution (the determination of the exclusive set of properties possessed by each term in contradistinction to the others: logos, law) and hierarchical ranking (the measurement of the degree of perfection of a term’s self-resemblance in relation to a supreme standard, man, god, or gold: value, morality). The modus operandi is negation: x = x = not y. But statistically, as anarchists, you should all already know this elementary truth.

Well yes of course empirical data can be statistical when expressed as a percentage if a benchmark standard is provided, but I lean towards the organic intuitive processes, thus avoiding the inevitable exponential rise to dominant invasive methodologies which for instance the Enlightenment wrought upon social evolution which infringes upon the whole intention of bare life and thought.

---infringes into and permits the whole intention of bare life and thought--

I’m going to dispute myself a little bit here, as it looks like the UAE May be the most vaccinated country in the world right now.
It also looks as if their case count is very low, at 83 infections per 100K people reported last 7 days.
The interesting difference between them and Israel though, in regards to the vaccination rate and case count, is that Israel is only using mRNA vaccines, and the UAE offers a traditional inactivated vaccine.

The UAE's population in 2018 stands at 9.543 million. Expatriates and immigrants account for 88.52% while. Statistics concerning UAE are therefore invalid.

Because the UAE's population is a constantly rotating young transitory workforce imported from undeveloped nations which must be vaccinated and quarantined before entering one of the most regulated and policed regions on Earth. Therefore these statistics likewise are unstable and inaccurately project an artificial perception of the state of the region's health. Its like a giant quarantine station governed by an elitist aristocracy. Its all a fake paradise built on a graveyard.

Thus supporting my position concerning the ambiguous nature of statistic usage. Could not all cities be regarded as artificial concentration camps with diverse living conditions and constraints and therefore already under a constant quarantine of various intensity and all built upon the graveyards of former indigenous peoples?

"58% of the hospitalized there are fully vaccinated"

yes. AND the majority of those are folks that are higher risk and were vaccinated early on. that speaks largely to the duration of protection, particularly for at-risk folks.

clearly the vaccines do not prevent catching the virus or transmitting it to others. they do seem to do a great job of minimizing illness when vaccinated folks get breakthrough cases.

And, as stated above, the fact that they "do not prevent catching the virus or transmitting it to others." yet they "do seem to do a great job of minimizing illness when vaccinated folks get breakthrough cases." is precisely why these vaccines may prove to be so problematic when administered to such a high percentage of the public, rather than only the most at risk.

Due to the fact that these vaccines don't kill the virus in the host, It is quite possible the vaccines themselves are driving the variants. It is also quite possible that the vaccines themselves will lead to the necessity of the entire population to become vaccinated, or face a much deadlier variant than ever would have existed without the vaccines.

There are no shortage of prominent doctors and scientists who are of this thinking, and say not to take these mRNA vaccines under any circumstances, or at the very least, unless you are in a very high risk group.

The ex-CEO of Pfizer, co-founder of Ziarco, and consultant to more pharma companies than you can count (Michael Yeadon), French virologist, and the man who received the nobel prize for discovering HIV (Luc Antoine Montagnier), one of the inventors of mRNA technology (Dr. Robert Malone, who has overseen or consulted in the production of vaccines since the 80's, and is also in the running to receive a nobel prize for his contribution to mRNA technology), and countless others, all agree on this.

These are people who have devoted their entire lives to science, and the creation of vaccines, not "Anti-Vaxxers".

Unfortunately, none of the "respected" press will interview anyone who has something negative to say about the current vaccines.

It seems as though there is VERY little resistance to any of the non mRNA vax's, which is why it's very disingenuous of people to be talking so much about these "anti-vaxxers"

The traditional vaccines (Novavax, Sinopharm, etc.) are not opposed by most of the people being called anti vax. These vaccines do not create the situation being warned of.

Yeadon's work was in the area of allergies.

He's speaking out of his depth regarding covid. People that have worked with him note his suddend personality shift.

Fair enough, but I would still think it’s safe to say he’s not some kind of kook. And I would imagine he knows quite a bit more about the Covid vaccines than your average media personality, or your friends on Facebook who are demanding that you “trust the science” and just get vaccinated.

Different anon here, but it doesn't really instill confidence that you're backing up your arguments with people who are circulated by a different set of "friends on facebook" who are grasping for straws to find experts who agree with their fear of the unknown and whose statements are largely taken out of context or extremely suspect. Being a scientist doesn't make you an expert in all science, nor does it make you not a kook (though I'm sure it's attractive to some that they've been discredited due to their misguided beliefs).

This is an anarchist website - I doubt you'll find many of us won over by telling us to trust a certain set of authorities, especially when they've got such specious beliefs to begin with.

I’m not suggesting anyone “trust” anything. I’m more suggesting that we should remain skeptical, that’s all.
Also, that I’m let down with the percentage of the anarchist milieu that has been in lockstep agreement with draconian government measures, and big pharma profiteer motives.

I won’t disagree that it’s possible some of the concerns about the vaccines or lockdowns and mandates might be misguided, but that’s the point of this discussion, right? To suss out what’s really going on, and where we should stand as anarchists.

"Also, that I’m let down with the percentage of the anarchist milieu that has been in lockstep agreement with draconian government measures, and big pharma profiteer motives."

i continue to see this claim made, yet i have yet to see or hear a single anarchist be in "lockstep agreement with ... government measures ... big pharma profit..."

seriously? you cannot tell the different between someone making a choice to protect their health and that of folks they care about, and agreeing with government mandates and pharma profits? jeez, fucking pathetic.

"58% of the hospitalized there are fully vaccinated."

58%!!! when the number of vaccinated people increases the number of vaccinated people contracting the virus also increases. what percentage of the population were vaccinated? if there are more people in the population vaccinated versus non-vaccinated then guess what?....


As of today, about 69% of Israel is fully vaccinated. This is not very far off of the "fully vaccinated" hospitalized number. Meaning, at least in Israel, being fully vaccinated isn't preventing you from being hospitalized any more than being unvaccinated is.

Give it a few weeks, and the percentage will probably be even.

Also, ADE is a very real concern with several prominent doctors and scientist, it's not conspiracy theory.

Many people screaming "Trust the science!" don't seem to realize that although the media would have you believe otherwise, "The Science" is not settled on any of this.

Comments lately have become the destination for Qanon-pilled conspiracybro sciencentists and entitled pedophile narcissist edgelords. How did it come to this?

To the topic I say that anarchists are doing basically the same thing as everyone else. A lot of 'choosing sides' and guessing. Except for SirEinzige... whose response is to maximize fartbong time and post obscure pseudoscientific deepthoughts on anews because "viruses don't exist at all" and nobody on Twitter will listen.

Ready you spearguns!

Yeah, I’ve participated in the above comments, and I’m sure mine are some of the most Q-pilled conspiracybro ones that you’re referring to, but I agree, we’re all just guessing here.
I’m not the most comfortable with the fact that I can agree with a bunch of Alex Jones types on the current situation, but I’ve only come to this position by working to debunk all of what I saw as garbage conspiracy theories.
The ideas I’m floating here are based on the shit I haven’t been able to debunk.
Either way, vaccine passports, Covid restrictions, and mandates are fucking antithetical to anarchist principles.

I may be a pedophile but I'm hardly a narcissist. I don't even believe in a self! Literally any other psychosis would describe me much more accurately.

It's easy to say everyone else is wrong though. Do you have an enlightened centrist position that doesn't pick a side?

anarchists are not immune to the conversations (and limitations) that are happening elsewhere. partly why this topic is relevant -- how to get through these knee jerk responses and a) really talk to each other (as much as that's possible), and b) learn new things/think differently.
that requires a process.

tl?dr: patience is hard.

Is there a lot to learn from the Q-pilled and the like on things where they are provably wrong or purposely being misleading? What is the point of endless conversation, what are you hoping to achieve from so much conversation with people who think contrary to you? Should the anarchist sit down and have deep dialog with Kings or should the anarchist simply kill them?

Are you seeing Q style conspiracy theories in this conversation that are “provably wrong” or purposely misleading?
The contributions I’ve brought to this conversation are admittedly shared by conspiracy types, but I haven’t said anything that I believe to be misleading or wrong/incorrect.
I’m honestly only bringing them up here because they are ideas that I haven’t been able to personally disprove, and, contrary to my expectations, the more I research these ideas, the more likely/valid they appear.
Proof that any of this is incorrect, invalid, or unlikely, is 100% welcome.


Good argument, and thanks for the thoughtful and detailed response.

What a joke

Again, proof that any of this is incorrect or invalid, or evidence to support that any of this is unlikely, is 100% welcome.

The commenter seems to display mammalian characteristics and therefore warm blooded and non-reptilian, though agreed, the mono-syllabic response does hint at reptilian thought processes.

I have seen my antivax friends take my support for vaccinations and my support for public spaces such as grocery stores to be allowed to require masks as support for government mandates. It's absolutely not, but I think that confusion has a lot of folks thinking Anarchists support things we don't.

"support for public spaces such as grocery stores to be allowed to require masks "

of course that is not support for government mandates. it is support for capitalist mandates. i find it funny that an anarchist would think that way. but all the right-wingnuts that argue for the "free market" and less government regulation contradict themselves continuously by negating those businesses' "right" to refuse service to anyone.

Many members of the species suffer debilitating diseases which make them either run around acting all crazy or holding up and confining themselves in their burrows. Some colonies even enforce these confinments so that the disease does not spread to their essential service providers who deliver food and work making the colony's utilities function, like carrying all the shit, piss and rubbish the heavy consumption lifestyle promoted by the leaders of the colony have convinced those lower down in the hierarchy to follow. So you can imagine the frenzy and panic which grips the colony when a pandemic occurs, which is inevitable when any species is overcrowded in unnatural permanent dwellings in symbiotic relationships with viruses and bacteria.

99% of the "anarchist" anti-vax or anti-quarantine is just shallow oppositional politics using the vocabulary of whatever flavor of anarchy that person subscribes to. If the government said to look the other way for covid, these same people would be tempted to flock to the other end of the spectrum for fear of appearing in line with the state. Its kinda boring theres little nuance. Healthy 20 somethings facing little risk of consequences from enacting their covid is just kinda boring.

"99% of the "anarchist" anti-vax or anti-quarantine is just shallow oppositional politics using the vocabulary of whatever flavor of anarchy that person subscribes to. "

No u.

What's definitely "boring" is to be forcing the entire youth under a Covid rule just because of a bunch of 70+ people dying from it.

And just HOLY FUCK. Elderly people are dying! Like this is an entirely new social tragedy and we must conform in order to prevent them from dying!

(I'm older than millenials yet I totally believe the youth shouldn't be kept away from living their lives fully for the "community", regardless of how I love or hate zoomers. In fact the more zoomers are living a corporeal life outside of screens, the better they become as persons.)

"forcing the entire youth under a Covid rule just because of a bunch of 70+ people dying from it."

obviously not paying attention to how many YOUNG folks are in ICU with serious symptoms. clearly you can do whatever the fuck you want, just know there are consequences. just like all the wingnuts that beg for the vaccine only when they are on their deathbeds. make your choices, live with them. and stfu with your ageist bullshit.

I don't see otherwise healthy young people in ICUs being a thing outside of the odd one here and there. If you are within a risk group whatever age then the vaccine makes a certain amount of sense. Otherwise, see the latest news on Moderna?

Large amounts of youth in ICUs for Covid is not reality, nor are the propaganda stories of people on their deathbed begging for a vaccine.
Even the dumbest of people understand that’s not how vaccines work.
The sheer amount of propaganda news surrounding the pandemic is enough to make anyone skeptical of what’s truly going on.

Speaking of media propaganda and reality, honest question, how many of you here would know we were in the middle of the greatest pandemic known to modern man, without media/social media, govt. etc., saying it was so?

We’re about two years into this thing, and granted, it’s anecdotal, but I haven’t seen anything with my own eyes to support the measures being taken.
Between all my friends and family, and about 100 coworkers, everyone I’ve asked feels the same way.

You would think if this shit was killing everyone, enough to shut down the entire world, I would have some first hand evidence. Something more than a coworker’s 90 year old uncle dying from it.

I’m not saying it’s not real, or that people aren’t dying, but I’m just surprised (and thankful) coming from one of the countries hit the hardest (the US), I haven’t seen much to support the fact that we’re in the middle of a deadly pandemic.

I do however, have two family members that ended up in the hospital shortly after getting vaccinated (no shit)

One family member diagnosed with Covid, and given oxygen for 4 days (not a ventilator), and one elderly family member who ended up hospitalized with rapid onset dementia, apparently brought on by a UTI.

Again, maybe not because of, but both within a couple of weeks after they got vaccinated.

fade in/

a: there are wildfires all over bc, ca, and the pnw. it’s devastating.

b: i have not seen anything about this.

a: it’s all over the television

b: well not my television!

/fade out

I would imagine if you lived in the pnw, ca, bc, or Colorado, you would have seen evidence of the fires, or know people personally affected by them.

This pandemic is global. We shouldn’t have to turn on the television for evidence of it.

I ain't never seent an HIV neither and I fuck a lot. More lib propaganda like the hoaxdemic. Raw doggin all day out here.

I personally know 3 people with HIV. I don't personally know anyone that's died from Covid.

I seen alot of your type with terminal venerial syphilis, and the fascinating thing is that about 1% of fuckers are asymptomatic and live for ages fucking and spreading it while their brain cells are rotting away turning them into moronic automaton fucking zombies. Get a blood test NOW!!

I think the poster is a liberal and therefore uses a condom and never gets STDs.

I would imagine that if you were in a COVID ward in anywhere that's being slammed right now that you'd have seen evidence of COVID being a major issue. Or if you'd been in a nursing home at any point earlier in the pandemic. I know people who've said they've gotten it, I know at least one person who's died from it. I know people who claim they've gotten sick and have lingering symptoms, and people who've said those symptoms were improved by being vaccinated.

I'm sorry you don't know many people (besides these random 100 people you're trying to use to back up your argument?), but your iron claim to ignorance makes your arguments extremely vacuous to the point where I'm not sure why you're arguing in the first place.

Don't take my word for it, look up the video interview of Abrien Aguirre, occupational therapist.

He's a board certified occupational therapist that's worked on three Covid units in Oahu Hawaii.

Can the moderators please tell me why my comment about Abrien Aguirre keeps getting removed so I can post it properly?

This is a real dude that's worked in three Covid units in Hawaii, not some crazy misinfo/disinfo

Covid's threat has been vastly over-dramatized, as its death rate is very low and as said before, mostly just targeting those with preexisting conditions. I got an elderly parent who died from it, but this was in the worst prison-like conditions of a nursery home, where they moved Covid-infected people for no other apparent logical purpose than to infect the elderly in these centers.

Of course the press being what they are, and government managers being what they are, in combination with a worldwide drama about a virus, you're pretty sure they're the worst (or perfect) adjuvents for such an endless crisis.

"within a couple of weeks" is quite enough for negative reactions to a vaccine to show up. Do we know it's this? How will we ever know? Who is to trust in this whole insanity? No one... Do your research, consider every possibility, follow your intuitions and gut feelings, and always keep a critical eye on anything taken for granted.

Dude... the Covid stats don't lie. The death rates from Covid below 50 years old are just ridiculous. Everywhere you look since March of last year, the vast majority of deaths are above 50, but more specifically 70 and above. You want links to the data? It takes 2 seconds to find in Google.

Btw... there ARE young people suffering from cardio-respiratory problems or diabetes. These aren't just conditions for the elderly.

Those last two are conditions of civilization.

And not enough people have been talking about that. Because they have too much vest interest in continuing the same misinformation about nutrition (based on ancel keyes) that has kept too many companies profitable pumping out poison. It would mean they've been wrong.

99.9% of type 2 is reversable through diet and lifestyle intervention. It's an entirely new phenomenon (we see children now with non-acoholic fatty liver disease ffs), due to policies. Heart attacks are pretty new. One of the first major cases was Eisenhower.

The science "experts" in their own words are admitting that PCR tests have been amalgamating Covid with Influenza and other similar viruses, so that now they had to adopt a "multiplex" test...

""The CDC is pulling their test 'off the market' as a gesture to encourage labs to use tests that include reagents (primers and probes) for both SARS-CoV-2 and Influenza so providers, labs, states, and CDC will have better data this fall and winter to estimate how much of clinical influenza-like illness is due to SARS-CoV-2 and how much is due to seasonal influenza," Polage said in an email.

Our ruling

Social media posts claimed the CDC was revoking its emergency use authorization request for its covid test because it couldn't differentiate between the covid virus and flu viruses. While the CDC is withdrawing its EUA request for the 2019-nCoV RT-PCR test, it is not because the test is faulty.

Rather, it's because the agency is concerned that, with flu season approaching, patients with respiratory illness symptoms should be screened for both the flu and covid. The patients shouldn't be tested for covid alone, because flu cases might be missed."

Ergo... same old circular logic of denial. "No it's not A... this expert is saying that on the contrary, it is A. SO that's fine since this is not A, according to expert, but..."

Fascinating tricks the press is pulling.

The point would not to be sucked into a left v right debate. It's just not interesting. Too full of fear, and want of easy answers. A working class divided. An emphasis on divergent interests, where always ideologies are held over our heads owning us.

Where are the fault lines of institutional distrust are opening and if there's anyway to form new relations. Or, to at least to help push them open further in doubting Scienticism.

Bernie's policies were more popular, yet I see far too much hot air offering some Handmaid's Tale merged with Koch libertarianism as salve. Interchange the word liberal with jew. An attack on different people all united in the same powerlessness. It smells like a desire to cull massive amounts of the poor. For whom? Just more of the same: people expected to submit to a joyless, violent ideology to keep businesses happy. No thanks!

The vested interests seem to have initially spread misinformation as to contain a crisis. It instead brought on more doubt. And some bad actors have come along to pill the working poor into seeing part of itself as less than human. The vested interests aren't very transparent, no doubt. Not about the whole thing. But what's clear is they're the same exact powerful interests that stand to gain the most with so little to lose as before COVID. The status quo they maintain is full of empty platitudes. I don't want to continue living under it. But, I also don't want to live under some American Doomsday Cult Daesh either.

The CCP sucks, and also lacks any values, so therefore spends its time getting compliance, consolidating power around itself as hierarchies do. Still, I don't want to fall into the typical hawk positioning and warmongering as I've seen play out the last 20 years.

It would NOT excuse CCP for any of its bullshit, but if the lab leak theory were true, what role could US state dept officials have played? These labs shouldn't exist, but nor should the antics of the idiots always trying to get is regular folks to fight their wars for them...

The forced mass-vaccination has highlighted a most important anarchist strategy: become independent.

Be as independent as possible both economically and socially. Try your best to create a situation where you can not be fired, or that it is not devastating if you are. If you are unable to do this then create a situation where it would be the least damaging.
Find and foster diverse social circles that will be able to resist propaganda from larger society. Find people that are reasonable and will understand what it means when you are part of a demonized group (in this case anti-vaxxers or people who don't think force vaccination is a great idea).

Independence should be the first goal of an anarchist, liberate yourself before you try to liberate others.

The preceding statement has been a public service announcement from the conventional values of the United States of America. Thank you for your support!

Find people that are reasonable and will understand what it means when you are part of a demonized group (in this case anti-vaxxers or people who don't think force vaccination is a great idea).

Yes, I'm glad I finally found a net of friends who're fundamentally critical of the government's Covid policies especially in response to the recent Covid Passport mandates, so that the local "anarchists" can no longer ostracize and "fire" me due to not being and thinking into line with what Dr. Fauci and the WHO is telling us to (coz u know, "anarchism"... whatever that means to them, at this point).

so who are your new friends? follow up questions, are they occasionally saying super sketchy shit about muslims and/or jews? we care about you anon, you might not be safe!

A few of them say the usual conspiratorial shit about Jews, but that's a somewhat common byproduct of countryside insular social psychosis and believe me I do my best to criticize/question these prejudices. I neither see those relationships as necessary to hold as far as these few crackpots are holding on to their demented views of the world. You'll be having the same bullshit being said in Black communities, basically. It appears that all over NA, the car-based mass society has create a not-too-healthy environment in many rural areas...

Isn't for us to create a new one that doesn't rely on mass energy demands and consumerism, in the first place?

.. ok, wow. I was making a snarky joke before?

now i'll be sincere: i'm from the sticks too anon, my only advice to you is to not lightly dismiss how toxic that process of normalization is to be around, even just through osmosis, in spite of your own critical thinking. it's powerful and the walls close in on your own thoughts, over time.

it's reactionary politics and culture, a poison chalice, to say the least and yes, you're right. it's mostly everywhere and there's no permanent escape. also ... it's a bit weird to frame it as "the black communities do it too." everyone does it everywhere. no exceptions.

i find it to be a wonderful anarchist strategy to assume that critics of the government are automatically right wing. Hitler lives among us my friends.

guess you missed the part where nobody is assuming anything

of nonsensical gotcha moments. Talk about back peddling! Woah!

Since were all giving loving advice here: don't project. I can't think of any possible value that intentionally confusing yourself and/or lieing entails.

are you the same anon? did you set up the strawman of "randomly accusing everybody?" cuz earlier, i said i lived in small towns most of my life, therefore, that couldn't possibly be how I survived. constantly hurling bad faith accusations...

seems you're literally projecting a "gotcha" moment right now? that's weird. this is getting very meta.

and mad, and both the anti-vaxxers and vaxxers contribute to this largely in the ways they talk about it. There's still a ton of moralization that goes on with this topic, along with moralization concerning masks. Clearly, if you are against totalitarianism and authority (i guess nobody's against authority in the absolute sense, as all humans love their personal control over things in their environment...) then you will not support any sort of mandate, because mandates impose themselves on life's diverse situations.

"How are you distinguishing yourself from far-right anti-vaxxers? "

i don't need to, and doing so sounds like a matter of appearance and hierarchy..."ego". It's obvious to me that not all anti-vaxxers are right wingers, some of them are non-voters, and even though in the US its kinda rare for a more socialist-sympathetic person to be an anti-vaxxer, but they do exist. I am vaccinated just because i think the potential benefits outweigh the risks and the science has been around for a long time, and i've been vaccinated a lot before. However, the one thing that anti-vaxxers do understand in which their opponents do not is that there is a risk involved. If you don't like bureaucracy, why should you then trust the CDC and other institutions not to hurt you? That is why i get so bothered when people rant about "doing your fellow citizens a favor". Who THE FUCK are these citizens??

I mean, this is a legitimate agree to disagree so don't think I'm trying to impose but I respectfully would argue that yes, everyone who wants to have a fairminded take on all this will be required (on their honour, not by law haha) to distinguish themselves from the far right. it's not just because of "appearance" and definitely not "hierarchy", those are your own ideological assumptions at play.

There's other reasons too. Big ones.

But yeah, I can see why you'd be like - fuck that - and that's your call. But I think it's a mistake. Hopefully i'm wrong and it won't matter for you personally.

who the anti-semites are now adays, some of them would say "no! not all jews! just the illumanati and pedo dems!" clarify my point, the poster of the topic of the week appears to be playing D&D with all this, and more probably seems to be echoing community concerns that they honestly can't answer.

But hey, september is now lumpy appreciation month for me: your forensic analysis of the other anon got back a "uh, well, like 50/50", so your clearly on to something! Are you in a prison? If so, i'll send you something, no joke! The white suprems have a special place for someone like you!

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