TOTW: Asking Questions While Walking

  • Posted on: 5 February 2018
  • By: SUDS

The Zapatistas have a saying, “preguntando caminamos.”

We don’t need to be perfectionists. We don’t need to have all the answers before starting a project or pursuing a course of action—we can get started and work out the details along the way. Rapid prototyping, the process of ‘failing as fast as possible’ in order to gather feedback about what works and what doesn’t is an effective strategy for completing successful projects. But, to take a step back, why are we even motivated to work on projects or pursue any goals at all—why do we even walk in the first place?

The question of motivation is hardly exclusive to anarchists, but is there anything unique about the relationship between anarchism and motivation? There are definitely individual differences in how motivated different people are. Are anarchists more likely to be intrinsically motivated? If that’s the case, why is there not a proliferation of successful anarchist projects?

Above and beyond being motivated about sexy projects there is the question of hard work. Brainstorming about how we’ll live after the revolution is fun, but at the end of the day the success of any project comes down to persistence and dedication. Hard work is hard enough for anyone, but what can anarchists do to get better at this?

For many of us, asking the question of what motivates us is a luxury. For those facing immediate threats of state oppression and violence the answer is obvious. But even in the streets we can hopefully ask ourselves these questions while walking--What motivates us, and how can we turn that into successful and lasting anarchist projects?



This might not be such a popular opinion as an anarchist but: Some people, in the right conditions have a greater drive towards activity and interacting with their environment. Most people who are born under the right conditions are not apt to be anarchists and in many ways, look at our general condition and use their proclivity towards action to better themselves. Certainly hard to blame them.

Different people are wired different. I believe even in those times of "immediate threat" different people will act differently and rise to the challenge respectively with their own course. I also don't think this says anything about the "potential" of an anti authoritarian world.

My motivation has always been an extreme distaste with the organization of society that relies on petty, obvious authoritarianism.

I agree and don't see why an anarchist position would take issue with that suggestion. Sudden deprivation of basic necessities like food, shelter, electricity, safety, etc might cause political consciousness to increase dramatically in larger groups but it also seems to be temporary. The people who can sustain these modes of thinking beyond those dramatic moments are rare.

People argue about how essential this is to the human condition, whether we've always been this way or if it's being done to us on purpose or both. A techno-bread-and-circuses type thing? That phase theory of empires says that it's because we've reached the stage of decadence and decline. Hard to prove any of this but food for thought!

I'm personally much like yourself, had too many close-up experiences with smug, violent authoritarianism and now I'm pathological about it. In my spare time, nothing satisfies quite like rubbing my shit in the faces of people entirely too accustomed to having their way.

how's that for smugness! I hate the expression.

It happens to be true though, you're obviously oppressed and in mental chains at the moment I'd bet, or else some liberal on a mission. Raille on and continue to hate.,.

Congrats, you're on par with high-as-shit-at-a-music-festival level discourse.

No, just an ontological existentialist ponder,.,

Not mutually exclusive! You can be both

Sober and ontological existentialist, that's me.,.

That's the summer of love and woodstock baby, one of the perennial bright spots of the 20th century and a go-to example of anarchic existence in a civilized leviathan shithole. Better then your clASS strugglusion;)

I've been to dozens of hippy circle jerk parties. They're full of braying jackasses like you and Le Fool, talking overwrought mystical bullshit and pretending you have all the answers. Emile would fit right in too! Everyone's high so they all just talk over each other and don't really listen anyway, so it doesn't matter what you say. Woodstock was the baby boomers and look how well they've done!

Turns out you can't party and self-aggrandize your way to a better society. It's just noise.

It's just noise and they brought you into their world, nice.,.

Nobody "brought me in". They run those parties on cheap labour or the slave labour of naive kids. I was both, back then. Electric hippy utopia recreated the worst things about society faster than many other failed dreamers.

They were all volunteers, work ceases to be work when it is performed in the spirit of play. Their ethos was life should be a spontaneous dance of joy, and you were conceived with this spirit in mind. You should relish the encounter and the events which followed, being your rebirth. My sounding like Dr Phil was not plagiarized,.,

You can't live for the pursuit of pleasure, it takes a lot of suffering and hard work to accomplish anything worthwhile in life. What are you going to do sit there and spin records and huff Jenkem for the rest of your life boy?


I'd like to punch that stupid mustache off his stupid face. Dumb Motherfucker

I think we found some resistance here, everyone gather round and have a look (+_+) someone needs some attention.

He REFUSED to publicize those homeless fights, and he didn't want to talk to him! DEFINETLY a comrade in disguise!!

Work is still work as long as somebody's getting rich while the foolish rationalize why they don't require compensation.

Getting rich off of something, or in some way influencing the ratios of wealth in an open unregulated environment is a free choice the participant would have made and has nothing to do with the actions if pleasure is the derivative. In other words, it becomes play, even if there is no copyright and some entrepreneurial slimebag makes a million bucks off it, in the mind of the players, it was not work.,.

Ah, so you're a Trump apologist too

Sounds like you are talking about the free market, trickle down, and create-your-own-reality-The-Secret "Manifest not being poor" bullshit. I usually ignore you but what the fuck are you even trying to say.

Back to mind over matter, knowing that property is ephemeral, and therefore wealth is a cultural construct. But forums are not the place for philosophical discussion, only for opinion and snarky rebuke, no?

who don't want to get out on the field and play ball. Is that what the problem is? You don't want to get out on the field and play ball with the big boys, because that's my job is turning cry babies into ball players.

Continue with that, I am getting turned on

So says forum sissy who keeps posting Youtube crap and sassy cultural referents as a praxis. Cool story bro!

My mom wouldn't let me play little league because I was being groomed to be a man of the cloth. I was competitive at skateboarding and disc golf though and later in life a couple of sprint distance triathlons and a handful of foot races.

are sissy-baiting and BULLYING the poor little anarchy forum boys. You are a Sissyphobic, Homophobic, Transphobic, Abelist, Misogynist, Imperialist Monster! I'm reporting you to the Speech Police at once! If you have Masculine Privilege (i.e. male-typical gender temperament), I'm reporting you to the Privilege Police as well. 5 years in the Re-Education Camp for YOU!

BTW, sports is far from the final test of manhood. WAR is (i.e. with guns). As a practical matter, not all guys are temperamentally suited for armed combat (and many women are). Sissy-baiting does nothing to change this.

and discouraged from joining the military, playing with guns, pursuing a career or higher education. My aggression still manifested itself though as I was always in trouble. After teenage rebellion and leaving the church I settled down and became more peaceful which is ironic, I guess because I broke free from repression.

are a real drag to pack around 24/7. But the IdPols (Identity Politicians) MUST do their endless liberal-guilt baiting, shaming, and whining, regardless of how counterproductive it is, because they are so badly uncomfortable with themselves and need to control everyone else around them. I could tell my own (atypical) "IdPol" story, since I'm supposed to be in a Politically Correct Oppressed Group (which working-class white people are NOT). It even includes an AR-15, no longer in my possession. But this is a digression.

I did 3D archery until the course was moved way out in BFE so I gave that up. On Monday nights I used to shoot a practical pistol course at the range but after a while the expense and the pollution seemed like conspicuous consumption to me so I gave it up and took a Jujitsu class...


Well given that the leviathen order has yet to be overturned your struggllusions have proven to be no better and actually make things worse via more political gangery. At least my examples involve anarchic moments in time which is what anarchy is for the most part.

Also I'm not wasting my time in this life joining some here to there ideological elect that supposedly configures the eternal now that is anarchy.

I don't care what you do. You're the one always being prescriptive in a passive aggressive way. "I'm not telling anyone what to do but heres why everything that everyone does is leftist and stupid."

Not a prescription:)

true! Your prescription is only implied but it's always something like "stop reifying spooks" as in, sit at home on the computer telling people how clever you are and how dumb everyone else is.

There can be a lot more to this then sitting at home on the computer. Start a radical salon of 'free ones' and brainstorm some creative surrogate activities beyond babylon. Confrontation and insurrection can be part of this but you don't put the cart before the horse, create the surrogate activities first. It's been done recently in regards to things like the post 77 marginals milieu, it can be done again. We're approaching the fist quarter of this century and after what ever big thing goes down goes down leading up to it that would be the time to start this new language of living. Hell start it now while the other retards go to war.

and may the wars never find you, however insufferably smug you are, as they find so many who wanted no part in them ;)

Wanted no part!? They freaking signed up for it when they went into submission mode.EewRFpi

Presumably you typed this while beheading a politician and dynamiting a prison?

Here's a question I've been asking while walking: What does a militant formation that exists openly and isn't limited to antifascism, look like? What's a better set of parameters for its purpose than "oh shit, nazis!"? What possibilities are available here, that don't apply to the more familiar and spontaneous black bloc militancy of the past few decades?

How would this formation function using anti-authoritarian principles while not getting bogged down in discussion during crisis? How do people train and disseminate conflict skills in a horizontal way? How do you measure individual progress and competency without a traditional command structure?

Perhaps most importantly, what kinds of activities serve as a bridge between the milquetoast liberal activist realm and more serious forms of resistance?

Insurgent irreverence to political activity of all sorts. This does not and should not have to be resistance for the sake of resistance. In regards to liberal activists I'll repeat my suggestion that we(whatever that means) should wean them onto the old political economic ideas of our forefathers and mothers that no longer work for anarchy. Encourage liberals to become libertarian socialists and set them to do the work of nullification and abolition in the political economic worlds that they inhabit. Try to encourage the more edgier among them to work towards abolishing the 5 historical monopolies(land, tariffs, money, patents and infrastructure). Essentially this is a hands off 2nd 3rd hand kind of affection where anarchsits and anarchs don't have to do the work because no one should ever work accept the political economic saps who believe in such things.

I like these questions, but I think there is an implicit assumption that the goal is resistance.

I'm not opposed to that necessarily, but I think the totw questions what our goals should be in the first place, or at the very least, what principles we should use to decide what these goals are.

So rather than 'how' we might accomplish these things, I think the question is 'why'?

(again, not because I think these are bad questions, but I wonder if the 'why' might offer some insight into the 'how')

Then here's another question: at what point does it become embarrassing to still be asking why to do things?

I'm wary of overly rigid ideological positions but isn't their most basic function to save time? So we don't need to keep asking why we came to any conclusion at all?

IGD writers' favorite slur

Did you mean milquetoast?

No, I meant my my stupid word play "Milk Toes". Thank you very much

Milky toes, mile ketos duh, mill caw does, mmm ilk those

Fuck, why am I so clever?

surely you mean *how* and not "why"?

I should have said: "Why I am so clever", a la Nietsche

surely you mean Nietzsche...

My name is not Shirley! And yes I forgot the z, what would I do without you?

nice reference

I agree: a person has to think 'why.' However, you use 'our' and 'we' which many an anarchist would challenge! Why? Because of the many strands of thinking and self-identifying purposes. I think all the time. I find peace when my mind switches off. Then I become 'aware' I was at rest, then fuck it up by thinking again! Pandora's box. I've never been hungry or thirsty where I wasn't too far away from having that fixed. I have no idea what that must be like. I do wonder what a famine survivor would make of walking into a supermarket and seeing a dumpster with out of date food inside!

what it would be like for a famine survivor to find a random computer with this anarchist TOTW as its homepage...


nice effort! :)

is just another distraction...from boredom...from thinking about suicide...from thinking about the ridiculousness of life, having been born (without any say in the matter) then... then realising you're gonna die... from thinking there's really only one way out... from thinking about one's death: how one is going to die. But we don't talk about that... we do anarchy instead! TOTW is be on death or how about suicide? Nighty nite all. Sweet dreams.

You could change that into a positive by living as if today is your last day on earth, then you flip over the whole equation into an exiting proposition rather than a boring conclusion.

*EXCITING* though exiting works as in exiting a boring final conclusion on what life has to offer.

People don't think this could be their day on earth. For one, there would be no 9 to 5 for one thing!!! If only people did think this could be their last day. When many realise they'll be dead soon, they become empathetic saying life is too short for fussing and fighting.

is my legacy to...

Question while walking: Why would any coherent position that is relevant to anarchist thinking, require an explanation for why the existent isn't acceptable?

Question while walking: Why can't everyone save my elite anarchist intelligentsia not laugh at my use of the term "existent" as the ultimate, overarching antagonism to fight.

I deserve that. But still, is "should we resist?" a serious question? It's more laughable than my douchey word folks ...

Resistance is futile... The State (oops I mean the Existent!!!) has won before I was even born... All tnere is left to do is Left memes and identity politics, protesting rape culture on campuses... Becoming better civilized slaves... NO THANK YOU!

Hey, if your imagination died, that sucks for you bro. Don't drag the rest of us down with you. Misery loves company eh?

Relax brodude that was sarcasm.

I'm not excited here. The prospect of having to explain why to bother resisting is far from exciting.

<3 @muse. ignore the haters and their snark. I want to ask questions while walking too.

q: how does the radicalization i experienced in the past affect the situations I can arrange for myself in the future? Why do my past experiences lead me to make a continuing affirmation that I hate authority, that I am an anarchist? Why do I want my future to be anarchist?

It is a tough time to be an anarchist, that's for sure. If authoritarianism was a stock, it would NOT be going down like the rest of the market. Authoritarianism is going up and up and up. Is it possible more people will say "why do I hate authority? who can I talk to about this? who can I act on this with?"

in huge part because of 5000-10,000 years of accumulated epigenetic damage in most humans alive today. No magical Correct Ideology or Glorious Revolution (under Correct Leadership of course) is going to suddenly change all this. And past attempts along these lines have worked SO well - at making things even worse.

There would have to be a very deep, radical, widespread spiritual awakening, the likes of which history has never seen. This would be based on direct EXPERIENCE, NOT doctrines/beliefs, and instead of becoming a religion it would destroy religion thru abandonment. The aim of a sufficiently widespread revolt against the system would need to be creating OPPORTUNITY for internal and external freedom (which reinforce each other), NOT imposing some pre-conceived "utopia" (which always create dystopias).

In the mean time, there are things that individuals and small groups can do to create radically freer lives. I know this from experience. It is not enough to hate authority. The task is to git rid of it.

Based on whose direct experience? Yours?

Sure but you could argue actual widespread revolt against society will create openings for freedom by definition and I think a lot of us believe that. It's just some take it to a silly level like a broken window or of course, a newspaper box.

I don't think the reinforcement or a sort of contagion of liberation will happen without some form of serious weakness or collapse of our current economic and social order first. Otherwise, I agree with what you are getting at.

Also, let's throw out prescriptive futures of course but not be so ignorant to think that human advancement in certain ways won't or can't drive us towards a more liberatory future. I know there is a constant critique of the information age but it is, for better or worse taking a rocket launcher to most societal norms taken for granted at the moment.

I don’t see how the two are directly connected. Freedom minus owness is overrated to begin with. Behavioural breaking insurrection(which I don’t see as revolt) should be the order of the day along with the things RPBK talks about.

I have come to the conclusion that we're just fucked. First of all, revolt will just lead to massacre of most of the people on our side, and second, even if all the lefty cliques stopped fighting and started organizing as efficiently as possible TOMORROW I still don't think we have enough time to correct the damage that has been done to the environment.

Well, ok, I take it back. By "we're fucked" I mean "we're fucked regarding any possibility of returning to any semblance of life we ever imagined", such as living comfortable lives where everyone has enough food and resources and we all live in harmony and leisure just reading philosophy and riding bikes and plucking fresh produce from the garden. In terms of what we might find in the future, people who can adapt and make do and find opportunities in chaos will be ok, maybe even thrive.

And yep I completely agree that tech has disrupted so many things in a very short time, and I'm surprised it's not leveraged more heavily as a tool of defiance and autonomy (at least, in the U.S.....)

oh shit, RPBK, I totally wrote my comment above/below (who knows?!) before even seeing this, hah!

I think I agree with what you're saying, in that I definitely think that striving for a mass movement for a single utopia is not the way to go. However (and I'm not sure about this, but it's been on my mind), I'm not sure if 'revolt' per se is the answer.

To draw an analogy, I've been thinking about 'no platforming' and how that's what the kids are into these days, and how there is a false dichotomy between 'no platforming' and 'providing space for assholes to espouse their shit beliefs'. To be perfectly honest I believe that 'no platforming' exacerbates the very thing that you want to suppress, and that we have seen clear examples of that recently. It's like only paying attention to a child when they're screaming and crying--negative attention is better than no attention, so it reinforces the behavior you're trying to curb.

I think there is a third alternative, which I haven't come up with a punchy name for yet, but it's basically just ignoring shit you don't like and making space to do something that's more interesting, more valuable, and more fun. Something that people would rather do besides throw a tantrum or watch some yuppie idiot give a shitty speech.

(yeah yeah, I know someone's gonna interpret this as saying we should just ignore nazis as they commit literal acts of violence but I'm not, so whatever).

The point is, rather than revolting against the system (which is completely, utterly futile, btw), why not just ignore it and do our own thing that is more interesting, more valuable, and more fun?

Now, the question is, what is 'our own thing', exactly?

Ignoring the system means the system still continues. This simply isn't acceptable for many.

I know, but railing against the system means the system still continues, also, we're just worse for the wear afterward.

against the system (i.e. ranting/whining/long-winded critiques) does exactly what you say. What works is the hard, material withdrawal of our cooperation with our own enslavement. Access denied. This also means we have to create solutions. Revolt may be a poor choice of words. I've done this over time at the miniscule level of the individual (de-facto egoism I suppose), and it works. I can imagine what this would look like if it became very widespread and (voluntarily) cooperative.

Individual solutions can't do much, despite being morally commendable. Hippie communes don't work, neither would permanent guerilla warfare...perhaps nothing people do can actually change the world? Perhaps only the world can change itself and we have to wait patiently for that moment when -- perhaps -- we get the chance to commandeer our own niches again.

As many have stated before me: 7 billion people, and even higher numbers of opinions on what justice truly means.

The world once was changed by the discovery of fire. Then by figuring how to grow vegetables. Then perhaps when we found that authorities and their orders and beliefs are bullshit, that they can be resisted, dodged, ignored, avoided or fought. There anarchy appeared. Then Christ Stirner came and he discovered the Unique.

...when we found that authorities and their orders and beliefs are bullshit, that they can be resisted, dodged, ignored, avoided or fought. There anarchy appeared.

People have "resisted, dodged, ignored, avoided or fought" since the Epipaleolithic; nothing has changed except the weather.

But the many are slaves to a Machine. The Levathian, beyond the gestalt of its actors (workers), is a system of enslavement. Boétie told ya, long ago, but many Leftists and even some anarchists (including you?) are blind to it.

Start with this postulate before thinking any strategy and even tactic, and you'll be on the path of true anarchy.

"Ignoring the system means the system still continues. This simply isn't acceptable for many."

*cough* Beware the arrogance of the claim to the "true path"

That's the Stirnerian starting point which Marxoids and strugglusion anarchists don't want to face.

We "don't want to face it"? Here was me thinking that my contempt towers over yours like an angry god ziggy ;)

This is what we like to do and other things too. Whatever you're doing right now is what you want to do. Instead of bemoaning our devices that obviously do something for us or we wouldn't be so attached to them we should be brainstorming about all the other things we want to do. Obviously we have to accept many things about the world that we're powerless to change but each day is an opportunity to do something inspired and we can help each other with some of that. This requires trusted accomplices, not so much trust that you aren't a cop or snitch but trust that you aren't a rapist, robber or murderer. In order to establish this trust you have to express yourself to people I think that's the most important affinity is shared values.

aww shucks ^_^ !

re: past radicalization, it's hard not to become disillusioned when potential radicalizing moments (e.g. occupy) seem to fail over and over, and even if you ignore the increasing authoritarian crackdown on everything outside of maximizing the efficiency of capitalism, it's getting harder and harder to breathe, to find space of our own to build what we want and live how we choose. It's exhausting. It's depressing. And to be perfectly honest (to connect this to last week's totw, since I've been working on it non-stop and am totally obsessed), people talk about building communities in person, info shops, co-ops, etc. where they can build these relationships and ask these question, and that's nice and all but it almost seems like an exorbitant luxury, an excess of time to spare that I simply don't have in my life right now. So not to knock on in-person community-building at all, but what I would like is to establish as many channels of communication as possible so that we can have these conversations (and they don't have to be all about illegalism! christ!) about, what are we doing? What do we want to be doing? And by 'we' I don't mean the large critical mass of anarchists who will finally all agree on something and usher in a glorious revolution, I just mean people having conversations and trying to find space in the cracks that we have, while we can. so, yeah!

Good suggestion that is!

I live out in the countryside because it's cheap and the air is sort of fresh. And as you said in your prev comment: Just try to do what you like, find your little crack in the pavement sort of.

Seeing how shit is not really looking to change any time soon, then at least find a way to catch your breath and enjoy all the good stuff life still has to offer! Possum living or whatever. Used to be common among the working class to have gardens or summer cottages outside the cities.

It has been a recurring theme around here over the last months (although perhaps somewhat marginal), so I guess others are thinking/doing the same. Anarcho-survivalism or some sorts, without much defeatism that is. There are good ideas and initiatives floating around, so I guess just find new ways to apply them.

I know there are quite a few doing stuff like this, you always meet 'em when traveling. But poor wifi, skepticism towards facebook and not too other many channels to connect through also makes it more of a perceived isolation than perhaps it is. And if some sort of connection can get established, then maybe you can also go visit other muppets who have gone to croatan or something along those lines? Or just to exchange still designs and the likes. does something similar, but I haven't really engaged with it so....

I'm commenting on both the comments of authority going "up and up" and the information age taking a rocket launcher to social norms...

I just wonder, is there really a way to know what type of a trend that authority is taking in society in general? It would make sense that authority would keep increasing since civilization continues to expand, but i think a more important question is how authority has changed its strategies over the years? Modern authoritarianism in wealthy countries has certainly taken more of a form to appease more sensitive, "wimpier" sensibilities, i just don't have any way of knowing about this since i tend to evade people who are going to beat me down so to speak.

this is the original commenter you are replying to, I also am a nihilist and think this is a valid question. I like Deleuze's idea that we have moved from a disciplinary society to a control society: less physical force is required by the state because of the ultra-level of self-policing we enact in the techno-age. For instance, perhaps there is a hesitance to escalate riots in the United States because of the cameras everywhere and the doxing. This leads to a "self-policing" where the heavily fortified riot police get to project their strength symbolically instead of having it contested with a disrespecting attitude, disrespecting actions...

i think there is a tie in here to the drone assasinations and how quickly those have been integrated into "standard" expectations of how the state can operate. Where is the fight? I won't say "where is the outrage" because the outrage is everywhere but that emotion is transferred on to other areas of our lives.

didn't just appear. Resisters knew what was coming, what my come. Maybe some resistors told others but nobody listened so the resistance was limited. My point is this self-policing culture was spotted way off in the distance, the warnings went out again and again but very few listened and called the resistance a conspiracy theory etc. It is happening now. Authoritarianism is almost here, very few see the internet of things as a threat but rather a convenience making lives easier!

"less physical force is required by the state because of the ultra-level of self-policing we enact in the techno-age"

And that's why the cops keep killing unarmed young black men in America?

Deleuze was wrong, grad-student dude bro

You don't have to agree with me, but I don't think what you bring up negates what I'm saying. when you say "Deleuze was wrong"... wrong about what? Are you saying that the state has come to rely more on violent force than less? State-sanctioned executions are as old as the state, are they not?

Lets look at the day AFTER a police killing. How often is there an open challenge to the police in these situations? and by "open challenge" I mean a large collective response that goes past symbolism (candles, moments of silence) and into a physical contestation?

also, way to make tons of assumptions about who I am-- do you think only grad students read Deleuze?

why is the comments thread on @news mostly about crap and snarky remark: hardly anything constructive! Most appear to have a decent life without too much stress as indicated by the pathetic state of discourse. It must be so nice to pull up people on their spelling errors and pontificate about what is real etc or even not to care about anything except for Stirner. Well, did Stirner live by what he preached? I doubt it. Not only that, clearly he must have been relatively comfortable to put such material together: how the other half live! It appears from the comments few even attempt at friendship/ community building? What is community? Community is a spook blah di blah? Luckily, the articles put up on this site are worth reading. TOTW is a good idea but is often hijacked by the mind-numbing comments. Any person, gaining an interest in anarchist ideas, would be well advised to steer clear of the comments section. Imagine being a newbie anarchist, posting a comment and then being shot down....for making a spelling error! Very sad.

stay tuned, dear anonymous! you aren't the only one who is annoyed with all the shitposting clogging up the comments. I think one problem is that there just aren't a whole lot of places where anarchists can anonymously talk shit about anarchist ideas in a forum setting. I have to smile when I think of the admin who envisioned this would somehow spontaneously coalesce into quality conversation :) :) :)

Petty bickering and grammar authoritarianism is not really an anarchist problem, tho, more of a 'people' problem. You find that everywhere. The question should be (and not to say you were asking the wrong question! lots of us feel it.), "what does constructive conversation look like?"

An example of constructive discussion would be: most of us would prefer a 'greener world.' Some come at it via anarcho anthropology. Some come at it via egoism and some come at it via nihilism. However, what 'we' end up with is growing authoritarian top-down earth-ravaging scenario! This scenario feeds on this. What do we want? To win an argument? To point score? The first step surely has to be a 'greener world.' If not, we may as well keep on with the snarky bitterness, right? The in-fighting has to stop such as Zerzan calling out Kaczynski; Anarchy Radio and @News, individualists and communalists etc. Zerzan/Tucker/AbdelRahim et al, Aragorn! et all, IGD, Black, White, Female, Male, anarchist vegans, vegan anarchists, straight, queer etc have, yes HAVE to work together constructively (without point scoring etc) otherwise there will be fuck all left of this planet and all those who live here including non-humans and those of any future!!! Yes, many people have put in a lot of time and effort developing their perspectives. What's the point of all that reading, thinking, discussion, tears, anxiety etc if no actual change is made? We cannot afford the luxury of all this in-fighting. It becomes defeating. The powerful needed worry about us as we very good at destrying each other. What do you want? Do you want a greener world? A safer world? A world of less anxiety? Then we have to start seriously working together, maybe ditching some of our ideas etc? All this in-fighting is not working. Surely, we can recognise that? Do any of us get a kick out of seeing pollution be it on land, in the waters and/or in the air? No! What do you want? Yes, as anarchists, maybe we need to start talking with others who are not anarchists but who feel just as hopeless and helpless.It feels as if we are treading water at best. Younger people, especially, are being handed a planet which is becoming more and more toxic. The in-fighting has to stop. And, it cannot happen in cyberspace. At some point you have to meet and talk in the real world. Younger people depend on the internet for so much concerning their lives. You have to redress that. Even the tech bosses restrict their children's use of tech, doesn't that tell you something? I've said my bit for now.

even if we grant that we all want a greener world (which, I think is basically true), the challenge becomes that not everyone agrees on what the best strategy to accomplish that goal would be. That is the heart of infighting, but what I find surprising is why groups of anarchists with different ideological bents (i.e., factions) spend so much energy 'recruiting' everyone else to be on their side, to adopt their priorities and principles. I mean, I have some ideas about it. I think that a lot of the goals that anarchists envision, the Revolution, a greener world, are so large scale that it seems the only way to accomplish them is for everyone to work together in the same way on the same grand project, all the tiny little whos getting together and rocking in unison and shouting and playing trumpets and tambourines trying to make their little speck of dust heard in the great big wide universe...

People elsewhere have mentioned massive 'spiritual awakenings' and the like, but I don't believe that 'understanding' will ever coordinate people on any large scale. I think the only mechanism that gets large scores of people to work together on a singular goal is authoritarian statism. Force and propaganda is what makes soldiers march in unison.

Can there be something else? Why do the anti-civs always have to harp on the trans-humanists? Why do identity-@ always have to harp on the nihilists? Can't we just let anarchists do what they're good at, focus on what they value, and do the same ourselves, without policing everyone (policing anarchism) all the time? Don't get me wrong, trolling is fun, but how can we shift the focus from 'how do we get everyone to do the same thing so that we have enough power' to 'how can I find some like-minded people who share my interests and build some real infrastructure together? And if I can't find anyone like-minded, what can I do on my own without needing others to adopt my principles and goals in order to get anything done?'

Put another way, I agree with you that different factions should 'work together' but to me that looks very different than a giant kumbaya circle (not that that's what you were saying). It looks like networks of small autonomous groups focusing on their principles and goals and letting others handle the rest, and building, creating, making anything they can that creates space in this world that we can live in, however we can. It sounds dramatic but that's where were at. Infighting doesn't happen if, when you encounter someone with principles you don't like, you say, "that's fucking dumb but whatever, I'm doing my own thing." I really don't think we need to compete over whose principles are correct or police those who we disagree with. And some might think that would lead to isolation but I don't think so. Like if I need physical security for an event I'm calling my antifa friends. If I'm hosting a dinner party I'm calling my vegan friends. I don't need to be antifa or vegan to respect what they think is important and I certainly don't need to spend time lecturing them that the Revolution would come if only they'd stop creating a ruckus in the streets or focusing on animals instead of people and start reading fucking Debord instead. Fuck that! They can figure that shit out, because that's NOT my priority nor is it anything I am good at.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your bit! Now I've said mine. :)

ps I think we can all agree on one thing: Fuck ancaps.

(Greener world, moving on): Imagine, put a load of anarchists all having differing perspectives on an island and leave them there to get on with it. Get along or starve to death!? What would happen?

labor specialization and mutual aid?

I mean, obviously people would have different interests and skills and form small groups and cooperate, right?

could we at least have Wikipedia?

tbh, anarchy island sounds like a dream scenario. it took capitalism hundreds of years to get this suffocating.

I take it you're saying all the primitivists, nihilists, egoists, syndicalists etc would put all their shit to one side and make it work, right? All the superfluous self-aggrandising would all be gone. Sink or swim. Focus. So, why can't anarchists live this mentality now? It tells me anarchists are not that bothered in this world of ready-made living? After all,we are on an island called Earth.

oh shit, you're right! we're DOOMED!! :)

to be real, yeah, I think many of these anarchists would relish in the challenge of making a situation like this work. I feel this as well--when the rules change, I'll be there, carving out my own opportunities out of the chaos. but that doesn't mean I'll be inconsiderate to the people around me... I mean, being nice to my neighbors is kinda my dream life...

The prims, having superior knowledge of foraging and hunting, could control the food supply and basically do whatever they want from there.

They would most likely die of morality and deprivation.

Stirner did live by what he wrote, he never ever "preached", that's a typical ignorant slur to hang on any philosopher. Just the drawing of him in the bar quietly pondering existence rather than joining the drunken peasants dancing and singing just shows he was not a member of the sheepish herd morality brigade who worshipped Gods and kings. You can take the anarchist out of feudalism but you can't take the peasant out of the anarchist.,.

I like how you think someone drawing Stirner in a bar is the same as knowing how he actually lived.

Deep Structure damage, epigenetic at the biomolecular level, accumulated over 5000-10,000 years.
But if ONLY we snark/rant/whine LONG enough, all of this will GO AWAY!

And YET AGAIN, it's a case of mind over matter, and everything will go away,.,

and point out spelling errors? No, they get on with being capitalists. They don't waste their time on pointless crap!

Well, some capitalist do. /r/anarchocapitalism. There whole method of arguing is point out falacies, spelling mistakes, etc. i'm not sure how it's a very good argument for your preference but eh. they seem to like it, bless 'em.

Capitalists such as those that are the banking system and their wannabe underlings are the capitalists I had in mine: those who get on with being capitalists. Maybe I should have been clearer, I assumed people would understand the point being made: those who do (them) and those who dream (us).

@muse, I have a lot of respect for your analytical tools but I can safely say that while walking, I don't still need to ask if people should being doing more than living their lives and holding a point of view. Call it "struggle" if you must but the fact is that everyone will eventually offer resistance on a long enough time line with incremental increases to indignity and deprivation. So it's not a yes-or-no to what I would characterize as anarchist activity, it's just a threshold that's different for everyone and contextual.

Earlier, you mention a "third option" of ignoring and doing your own thing and unfortunately, this isn't some special insight, it already has a name. It's what everyone is already doing, anarchists and all others. It's the "existent", which is a douchey word I learned by hanging around here, by the way ;)

The millenials especially, are all retreating further and further in to their little microcosms of identity and electric fantasy. I don't begrudge anyone their escapism, just like I don't blame the green anarchists for holing up in a cabin in the woods but I do scoff when they try to pretend that this is somehow equivalent to anarchist activity. It's not. It never will be. Worse, it's exactly what the technocratic oligarchs want. All of us in our little pods, most of us still be drained of our vitality to feed the beast, barely noticing as they take more and more in exchange for less and less.

We're ignoring the world as much as possible, with success being relative to the ease (privilege) with which we can find our little space to hide. Many of my friends are doing it right now, I've done it in the past and eventually, sitting there in peaceful quiet, computer screen or vegetable garden, you're forced to admit you're just hiding.

So! Hide if you need to, I've done it for years, I'm not judging. Sometimes it's necessary for mental health. Just don't try and turn it in to grandiose, or if you need to self-aggrandize too, I can't promise I won't snark haha

I appreciate the compliment and your thoughtful response! but you misunderstand me. I don't mean that we should turn away from the world and retreat into isolation. I mean we should stop trying to convince everyone around us that we have a great idea that will work perfectly if only everyone takes our side, and start building the world we want to live in. not the world we want EVERYONE to live in, that's just not going to happen. we cannot compete with capitalism, full stop.

another way to put what i I'm saying is, think about disruptive innovation. it doesn't happen by overturning an existing behemoth system. it happens by making some small aspect of that system superior in a way that renders the original system useless. but disruptive innovation is something built. it's not a critique, it's not a system vulnerability, it is a tangible services or product that is useful in its own right.

there's a lot of hand-sweeping and over generalizing in what I'm saying, I know, and yah I definitely don't want to be interpreted as saying that we should live in our own reality or any of that individualist kind of crap. I don't have the answers, obviously, or else things would be solved already :)

Oh I see! Sure, no issue there. You initially questioned the assumption of resistance because of how costly it can be and I'm definitely not urging anyone to martyr themselves, literally or in the courts, or whatever. Innovation should lead to activity being less costly, as was the case with the 2nd year of the Olympia blockade.

I was originally a media person (a life-time ago) and now I'm pretty far past any kind of proselytizing or assuming that mass conversion or "consciousness raising" or anything like that is worth my efforts. Not that I don't see a bunch of very cool media projects, more like there's plenty of that and not enough of other things going on IMO.

And as soon as I say that, I have to get busy or else I'm a hypocrite!

It’s not that hiding is grandiose, it’s simply the default cake to an anarchic existence. If there is an opportunity to ride the tiger then you take it but that’s simply icing. People from Stirner to Bey understand the importance of hiding and laying in wake. If you look at my nigga RPBK he has clearly done something self meaningful and if others are found intercourse is made on deep interpersonal levels. That’s the default of a good life. You seem to have an issue going silently into the night, perhaps that’s part of what anarchy is. It’s ahistorical and unregistered.

Yeah ziggy … I have multiple issues with "going silently in to the night". Ride the tiger huh? Where do I know that phrase from ...

And it happens to be a good phrase regardless of the thinker who came up with it. Evola I actually regard as a respectable intellectual even though he is on the COMPLETE opposite end of where I come from(Stirner). Nietzsche's about in between. Stirner says something similar in regards to waiting for your time being right to strike and take down a society. That's what you do as opposed to being an abstract struggling retard.

And what's really the issue with going silently into the night. The opposite is what holds all power addicts together along with those who want to preserve a reified structure. It's one thing to 'procure yourself a place in the world'(Stirner) But anything beyond that is a registered historical footprint. Perhaps that isn't what anarchy and individuated contentment is about. It goes along with the view that in the end we are all dead.

Yeah … it's from Evola. That was my point dumbass.

go those skilled at irregular/asymmetrical war. So does cougar-kitty, my totem animal-person.

They both procured themselves a place in the world, lived for themselves beyond god slaves and masters, AND...went silently into the night.

10:54 Who cares it’s a good pro pessimist quote that points to the correct non organizing struggling orientation and the same point is made by Stirner.

Hand sweeping and over generalising is the problem with online communication. We all end up doing it because of the medium. That's why an anarchist online 'chat' space will not work. It's ok for chit chat but not back and forth nuanced 'solution' focused depth. It's interesting that young people 'have' to make use of the internet. A group of people sat around debating and discussing is far healthier in every way. Anarchists, can, by all means chat online, suggest books etc. As an older person, I understand my point fully because I have lived most of life pre internet. Young people will not fully understand where I'm coming from. As a White male, I don't fully understand waking up as a Black person in a 'White world.' I can imagine but I cannot know. I talk with young people. They are not fully present mentally. The imminent distraction (the screen) is never far away,itching to check if there's any messages etc. You simply cannot live without that screen. Panic, mood swings ensue. Plus, younger people are breathing in air which is more toxic. These are real global problems for young people. Young people should form young anarchist groups and ditch the old fuckers like me who left you a big fucked up world.


the results based approach means that life is what happens when you’re busy making other plans.

this is the projectural realm. heightened reality. a re-presentation that is an unreal world.

i don’t know about ‘solutions’ (and some insecure folks had some ideas of a final one, it too having no end but some unobtainable purity), but we would do well to try and understand mcluhan and how to distinguish from seeing and reading the world as we depart linear culture (the written word).

let’s play

carry on

Don't shoot me for suggesting this! Maybe call it an anarchy festival/conference? Fuck, enough people fork out for festivals all over the world? Let's say there was a donation option to pay for a conference which could be streamed live and later downloaded? There could be speakers, Q&A, books for free and for sale, live music, etc. Face-to-face!!!. Financed like a crowd-funded and by tickets fir example, have sites where people could donate? This would provide the impetus and focus for anarchists to do something together? There must be skilled organisers out there? Vegans have become very good at these 'fests' to the point that the message is getting through to people. It shows others that vegans are not about throwing fake blood everywhere and challenges the mainstream media narrative of vegans. Anarchists and the anarcho-curious could do the same?

That's already a thing but you can certainly organize one in your area

a couple things: 1, throwing fake blood everywhere can be fun! :P and 2, I love this idea and if this is a thing, I certainly haven't heard of it. I know that there are bookfairs but conferences? I've been to many conferences in a different context and they're very fun, although a little too stuffy and 'cram info into your head'-based, rather than action-based, so I like that you paired the idea with 'festival' to suggest something with a different model. I don't like the idea of the 'skill-share' model either, really, but that might just be a personal bias. But what about like a 'hackathon' model where the purpose is to actually build something on the spot?

force in order for anarchists to exist with some sort of meaning to their lives? It sometimes appears to be the case when reading anarchist material. I'm not into rebelling for the sake of rebelling?

If you can't see any reason, one wonders how you ended up here?

We git born into slavery, but getting rid of it is FAR more gratifying (at least for me) than "rebelling" against slavery while clinging to it (which is a loser life-script).

As in physics, you'll just get dominated... until you decide to stop bowing your head down and engage in conflict with authoritarians.

Conflict is among the very few dynamics which give sense to my llife, and give me focus. Anarchy without conflict is like land without water.

I listen to these people and I read the dreamy rhetoric of anarchists from many of the isms and there a chasm there. These people in the younger energetic days put you lot to shame. Anarchists need to watch this and understand just how ridiculous many of you sound with you waffling on about the books you've read etc. Watch this, go for a walk and ask yourself some serious questions!

You can't base your opinion on what you read on the internet, in a comments section. It's not representative of all anarchists. This is such a flat and constricted medium for exchange. If you take this to be what represents anarchists for you then you either need to take the time and effort to connect with people irl that don't suck (they exist believe it or not) or you know, maybe show us the way with your revolutionary vigor. But I doubt you have done anything inspiring. You come here to drop your drive by comment, pissing into the void. You think anarchists don't know anything about the panthers? Get your head out of your ass

I'm not going to assume anarchists have bothered watching this video which is the point of posting the link to it. Listen to what they have to say about how they ACTUALLY built up their own resistance and on-going community building. Interestingly, these four panelists don't mention anarchism or whether anarchists got involved (did anarchists get involved or were they too busy writing books?). Yes, there is sporadic anarchist action destroying capitalist property and or helping non-humans. Would the Panthers got off the ground had they been staring into the screen? I doubt it. Maybe they would have severly restricted its use or even banned its use altogether as they realised so much energy is needed in struggle. They armed themselves too which is significant. Anyway, please watch the video and then come back to this thread to post your thoughts on it.

Who had a historical adrenaline rush with the times and have no relevancy outside of those times. The only interesting thing to be found about the panthers are those who broke off and became more anarchist.

All struggle accounts to is a contextual adrenaline rush having nothing to do with the relations needed for anarchic orientation.

took a stand, fed children, had a clinic etc. All you can do is be snarky!

You have to show me more then that. Any ideological gang can have an organizational adrenaline rush.

Ziggy thinks he's owed infinite explanations. He doesn't get how burden of proof works.

And capitalists took a stand, fed children, had a clinic etc, the usual binary excuse to justify existence and good faith,

whatever else some people come with to avoid the prescient point of action: of actually DOING rather than having the luxury of just reading! Panthers tried; do anarchists know...actually try or are they bogged down by the weight of binaries and spooks?

Varies from individual to individual. You seem to be making another binary out of all anarchists, no? :)

Yes :(

point, the Panthers smile, get up and leave you because they're about making the lives of people more liveable: those who need to eat and learn to read one day they will know all about binaries!!

at this point …you're either trolling or being obtuse. "The Panthers" did and didn't do a lot of different things, on a case by case basis. The same is true for anarchists, regardless of your recent decision to be frustrated with your own perceptions of them.

'at this point …you're either trolling or being obtuse.' I've spotted your binary! However, I'm not trolling nor am I being obtuse. So, you're binary is no more :-(

My binary is I've seen anarchists behave exactly like The Panthers in your example so … I say they do, you say they don't. We are at an impasse ;)

YOUR binary was I was EITHER trolling OR I was being obtuse. I said I was doing neither. And now you're trying to dig yourself out of the hole you dug for yourself. Be humble ;-) It's there for ALL the world to read....for the next 14 years!

I'm politely implying that you're still being obtuse … since you're insisting on dragging it out ...

When you critique a group like the Panthers you should make a list of everything that's good about them, another list of everything that's bad and then make a new group that only does the good things and then some!

No it's these damn devices that are holding us back!

are you going to assume that anarchists talk to and listen to panthers speak in real life though? because that is the truth. fuck your youtube link force feeding (talk about staring into the screen)

stfu you grumpy fuck haha There's always new people who can use this info.

Are there black anarchists in thecollective? If so, is their colour light or dark? If not, why do think this is? What do people think of the darker a person's skin, the more discrimination that person will face and experience? Beyoncé's father is very recently reported as saying had his daughter had darker skin, it would have been harder for her to be accepted. My immediate thought is anarchy is associated with white people, mostly male.

'In the expansive terrain of anarchist history, few events loom as large as the Spanish Civil War (1936-1939). Countless books, films, songs, pamphlets, buttons, t-shirts, and more are rightfully devoted to this transformative struggle for social revolution by Spanish workers and peasants. But digging through the mountain of available material, little can be found on black militants in the Spanish revolution, like the one featured in the powerful photo on the cover of this reader -- a member of the Bakunin Barracks in Barcelona, Spain 1936, and a symbol of both the profound presence and absence of Black anarchism internationally. The deceptive absence of Black anarchist politics in the existing literature can be attributed to an inherent contradiction found within the Eurocentric canon of classical anarchism which, in its allegiance to a Western conception of universalism, overlooks and actively mutes the contributions by colonized peoples. In recent years, Black militants, and others dedicated to Black anarchist politics, have gone a long way toward bringing Black anarchism into focus through numerous essays, books, interviews, and public talks, many of which are brought together for the first time in this reader.'

Black Rose Anarchist Federation / Federación Anarquista Rosa Negra

is what exists, with white being at the top and very dark being at the bottom. I think that is the essence of the Beyoncé news article. For those in the USA, just to let you know, racism, skin tone hierarchy and white supremacy exists in the UK. Yes, there is still class warfare as well. But, being white is really what counts to not get the worst of the discrimination. Racism and skin tone hierarchy is pushed on to all of us from the moment we are born. We are socialised in to it. It becomes so engrained that (I know of white people) we hate those that put it there as we taking in the culture as babies and young children. We have to accept we have it. Check it. And fight it AND pass it on to the next generation. This is proving very difficult as skin tone hierarchy is still here. When someone says they discriminate by skin tone, are they lying or are they denying it to themselves? Have you ever heard a white person say 'Oh, I didn't notice their colour.' What utter bollocks. Noticing colour doesn't make you racist, it's all white supremacist ideology that is associated that you use against skin tone is what makes a racist. Did people know the Statue of Liberty was originally going to be a black female?

'The Nature of the Cage.' An information documentary about 'the person' as a corporation, as a business entity. This, along with a person's birth certificate and a person's signature and contract law. Very interesting. It ties in with bondage (as in ownership, chattel and not Miss Whiplash). Common law. Does this apply elsewhere other than Britain?

That's sovereign citizen type theory. It's inferior analysis because it misunderstands the court system as a magical realm of whoever has the best argument. That's not what legal concepts are, that's not what a courthouse is. This stuff is a failure to understand the true nature of power. Look elsewhere for better tools.

that The State uses birth certificates are the registration of the new born to be treated as a 'business entity?' And that each of us are 1) a business via legalise and 2) an actual person via common law? Jon Witterick's work (based on E. Croft) seems to have had some positive results? Have you watched Nature of the Cage?

So a default social contract imposed upon everyone at birth?

I didn't say it's incorrect, I meant that it's an relatively unproductive realm of enquiry for people who lack the resources to wage battle in the courts. But it's certainly interesting food for thought, if you're still pondering the implications of a state that's obviously completely hostile to the people it claims as "citizens". Basically, I'm an anarchist so this shit isn't news to me. But to people who are still deciding to step through the looking glass, sure, why not?

It's not like you can convince a judge to change their minds about this stuff, you know? They'll just laugh at you.

But you're right about the concept of the social contract. I remember my epiphany about it, long time ago but I'm still struck by how insane it is. Like you want to run down the street screaming at everyone. I still wake up on that side of the bed, from time to time.

Running down the street screaming " Stirner ! " worked for me,.,

in what you say. However, there are some small victories within this documentary which provide some good vibes. And, you know, people are using this video as a means to fight albeit in a small way as you say. It is an avenue people can use. Jon Witterick has his own site because of demand for his knowledge. The hidden aspect of the 'legal person' and the 'common law person' is fascinating and shines a spotlight on those mind-sets who deceive via such methods. Thanks

Could you throw up a short list of examples of these victories for lazy people?

13:56, you're being stereotypical with the sovereign citizen stuff. Ok maybe in the U.S. they're mostly that movement of countryside enlightened crazies, but there's also people who did the fundamentally anarchist gesture of rejecting citizenship to the Nation-State and its government. Those people are true anarchists, even if you're unlikely to see them at your local gig...

Maybe generalizing a bit but my point was that it isn't a viable set of tools for serious resistance. By the time you're in a courtroom, you've already lost. I like the aggressive anti-debt collector stuff and people should learn the laws and regs for when they're being harassed, etc. Can't dispute that.

For example: These sovereign citizen arguments can be pretty misleading to people who don't have any experience in criminal court. In the past, I've seen it result in a lot of charges for folks who didn't seem to realize that ignoring injunctions, court summons, or obstructing police would land them in the kind of situation where they're going to find out exactly what the judge thinks about their reinterpretations of old english law.

Lastly, of course we all "reject citizenship". Are you talking about burning birth certificates or what?

The Suffragettes but playing down their forced use of direct action because diplomacy and begging was getting nowhere. The masses don't appear to notice this, only making noises about how great it is for all women to have a vote. Again, officialdom playing down how this vote is also useless but the masses all repeating that this vote is necessary for change! I was walking and thinking about this....honestly!

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