TOTW: choice or not choice

  • Posted on: 29 October 2018
  • By: thecollective
search for "human front"

Well, I thought this was going to be about feminism, but I can already see it could be more about poking the egoists...
When I was young, I rejected all things gender-expected for myself. As I aged, I found myself doing plenty of gender-expected things (areas of ignorance and of competence, for example) and only occasionally beating myself up about it. I have mixed feelings about this, sometimes accepting it as part of being part of a culture (however fucked up it is, parts are unavoidable), sometimes feeling lazy or boring because I didn't/don't push myself harder, sometimes leaving open the option that people do just have strengths and weaknesses that are not *necessarily* or *always* about cultural paradigms.
In these days of gender fluidity, in which people still act out plenty of the expectations but with more cover, how do you address this? How do you resist or accede to gendered (or other) expectations? What is the point, now, of resisting them? (It used to be about broadening the potential for the categories of Woman and Man, but those are seeming like concepts that have now been sidestepped, and may no longer be worth directly confronting.)
And for the real theory-heads among you, what do you think of the shift from a body-based feminism (in which knowledge, power, etc come from nature and our bodies) to a feminism that refutes the body?



have you all address me as a black female? Clearly, the whole rigmarole of gender is the ability to create a pyramid, a hierarchy if you will, about who gets to dominate who and assign who does what: that is what needs to be done away with.

i'd rather be called a bitch than feel like people like me but ignore me. those aren't necesaily related points...
genders confusing.

i recognize that stereotypicaly gendered behavior can be a survival tactic, but challenging them can also be a survival tactic... when do we choose one tactic over the other?

When they call you outside to settle things the, in their words > "way men settle things". That's when you decide to recall all that self-defence dirty fighting tactic stuff your dad tried to teach you about standing up for your individuality and uniqueness, or else you go your mom's way about resolving problems and hysterically crumple to the ground like a snivelling little girl and wee your pant(ie)s.

I understand postmodern/postwave feminism less as a refutation of the body and more of a deprivileging of the body. There Is an implicit acceptance of plasticity and/or fluidity that was unthinkable in the first and second waves, which were predicated on a biological (and therefore sociological) certitude. The previous anon — and pretty much every other idiot who objects to the expansion of categories — objects by deliberately rigidifying a priori categories through the invocation of polarized binaries. Totally missing the whole point through an ignorant misreading. I recommend baeden as a basic text.

He makes the point that contemporary leftism and radicalism has ceded far too much of the body to the Jack Donovan types. I would actually like to see the return of idealized body structures in an anarchic context. There are aspects of what Donovan is doing that I very much like. I'd like to see stateless naked neo-pagan wonder woman and man societies that don't have a fascie stench to them. Unlike the trendy niche nihlists of today Renzo Novatore and his type of nihilist was very much into new idealized neo-pagan structure of the body.

The contemporary idpol left are all about idealized language as opposed to an idealized body structure. They're the problematic mirror of the Jack Donovan types. Either extreme leads to non anarchic results. As idealized structures go, it's time to pump up the body again.

How is idealized bodies any better or even worthwhile? Ok reforming language has mostly failed. But that just sounds like youre advocating for reforming body norms, which will honestly probably always exist but will always allienate people. So why bother?

If you regress enough you will end up having a problem with physical reality itself with its points of separation. I take the Stirnerian Egoist approach of having egoist preferences determine how one creates ones being and not going for all out categorical destruction or construction. While there can be a constructive problematic to idealized body structures, they can be subsequently played with and not enforced by further unnecessary reifications.

i don't think it's a refutation of the body at all - what would that even mean? trying to lump feminists in with christian world-deniers? - it's just that the body isn't a static, mechanically-deterministic object like all matter is according to western science. baedan is for hipsters merleau-ponty if you want to know what the body actually is.

first off, i would HIGHLY recommend that if u want to learn more abt gender, u speak more to

1) trans nonbinary ppl
2) trans binary ppl
3) women
4) gender nonconforming (gnc) ppl

each of those 4 groups will have smthg v different to say abt gender

second, i do not think 4th wave feminism or the movement for trans rights at all refutes the body; this misunderstanding imo emerges from the equation "body = biological essentialism" (which itself is a funny equation bc the entire equation sums up the very concept of biological essentialism, in an infinitely recursive sense). the MOST common misunderstanding, which is indeed the front that most "ally" orgs are pushing in opposition to the US fed gov's recent change to the terminology wrt passport info, is that "gender and sex are separate/different concepts." this is perhaps a misunderstanding which is initially, or for the time being, helpful to cis ppl and allies in destabilizing their biological-essentialist POV. but the truly radical stance which i believe is approaching consensus in the wider trans community and especially the theoryheads of the trans community is that sex and gender are not separate at all, in fact are barely distinguishable, but both sex and gender are fluid, mutable, and indeterminate. this i believe actually prioritizes the real agency and autonomy inherent in "body" as an inseparable element of "self," or especially "Big Self" (in zen terms). this notion of body i believe is also found in most buddhist philosophies and in the contemporary continental turn towards post-human (or, more disgustingly, "object-oriented") ontologies

third, its important to grasp the significance that the gender binary has to historical and contemporary feminisms. the categories of "man" and "woman" are still here, and trans ppl do not (yet?) have any intention of totally destroying those categories. but much of the practice of daily living as a trans person is a demonstration of the chaos, instability, inscrutability, in those two polar categories and indeed in the whole binary/dichotmous/polar system, at first refining it into a spectrum, and then finally exploding it into a nexus (cf whitehead); this is the project of nonbinary folks especially

texts? anything you especially like for any of the four categories yo list?

doesn't people getting surgery imply a kind of body-refutation?

To start the four categories have a lot of overlap and get blurry as people can inhabit more than one as well as change how they conceptualize themselves over time.

My advice is disregard the theory and books and talk to people about their experiences and how their gendered body effects their lives, especially how other people relate to them.

"first off, i would HIGHLY recommend that if u want to learn more abt gender, u speak more to

1) trans nonbinary ppl
2) trans binary ppl
3) women
4) gender nonconforming (gnc) ppl"

and be sure NOT to speak to men, they have absolutely nothing relevant to share about gender.

you are going to define/describe my gender FOR me. And intern me in a forced Re-education Camp if I don't agree.
In the Glorious Politically Correct Future, will we have forced gender/sex education for grade-school kids run by IdPol Maoists, with forced internment camps for kids who don't obey? Like those "boarding schools" used to culturally genocide Native American kids? You are TRULY a great gift to the right-wing.

In a footnote in my book, I refer to "gender nonconforming/transgressive" people as a normal variation. This is innate, and was selected for by human evolution for a particular reason. I can describe the biology of this in human males. "Savages" (normal humans) intuitively understood this, and were not hung up about it. Readers may know the generalized term two-spirit (there are many different words for this in Native American languages). And a masculine male "savage" isn't "gender-conforming", he is just manifesting his innate gender temperament. It is unwise to bludgeon Nature into Political Correctness. See the book As Nature Made Him about one of John Money's "projects". Some empiricism on all this gender drama might be helpful. No one HAS to agree with any of this.

A theme guys have internalized from a very young age in this "society" (even in our "post-modern" era) is this: You are either ALL man, or not a man AT ALL. This is stupid. No real guy is like this, and this is a perfect formula for Gender Hysteria! (which really gets bad if pre-gender/sexual conflicts are condensed into it).

For those who don’t know any people like that I’d recommend this as an excellent way to begin:
Her website:

is talkign abotu their own experience.
do you people even have bodies?

are obviously a MAN. And you are Objectively a Mysogynist, Homophopbic, Transphobic, Racist, Ableist, Imperialist Monster.

But I lost my nerve and settled for a vasectomy instead.

The gene pool is better off for it by the sounds of your theoretical determinism hah!

You should've just gone for the orchi.

If you'd spent more time assessing long-term outcomes you would have realized that the logical procedure would have been to have a lobotomy, but you know, instinct for survival, denial and ego stuff clouds ones judgement I guess. A lost opportunity, oh well.,.

is that there are people like me who see a more bodily-oriented existence as being needed to be an animal, i.e., be more free and un-constrained by thought and ideas, and then there is the norms that don't change, and the psychological need to talk and flesh things out that appears to be threatening to just about everyone, including me sometimes. There is the big issue about "safe spaces" in a world that is more often existentially threatening rather than physically threatening. I was born with an actual fear response, but if I'm always using statistical occurrence to base my decisions rather than immediate danger or need, then what the fuck am i doing? I better stock up on canned food and join the gold fanatics.

Such topics always lead me back to contemplating anti-civilization and pre-civilization. If more reasonable and natural thought simply isn't available to people these days, then they're obviously off to a pretty bad start. Rigid gender binaries were not something that didn't exist before civilization, but atleast people had a clearer direction about what they needed or wanted to do, whereas a constant problem i have discriminating between the superfluous and not-so-superfluous.

A feminism that refutes the body to me is an exercise in weird rebellious declarations :-/

Is there a link I missed?

Hi Professor rat,

To find older TOTW's you can visit the tag / category listed as "totw" linked on each new TOTW, as seen here:

I went there ( thanks Roc!)

So where's the ' name of the rose' one? The one before this one?

You're just gonna burst if you don't get in one last anti-ziggy rant, aren't you? Here it is:

Thanks again Roc
I see on that thread Le Fool vouches for ' Nihilist ". So that's the kiss of death for them.
As for his Royal Highness, I actually agree with him a lot. I just don't see his connection with ' anarchist news ' though
( since he seems to oppose both so often)
And since netspace is practically unlimited then why not get your own blog, your Royal Highness #SIR
ANARCHY with orange characteristic NEWS!

I now see beyond all cultural abstractions, and am reddy to stop sinning against the holly nihilist cult of saying absolutely nothing, and having disdain for every single thing! It's time for me to abandon all servitude, take my lance and skewer the whining id-pol faggots who are beating at the gate of social democracy!

@prefessor_rat: yes sir, i have lost all interest in authoritarianism, gender politics, and social psychology. I am one anew in the flesh of a true nihilist. And just for the record, ziggy is not someone who i have anything against, nor do i have anything against the psychopath or sociopath, just the moron who tries to out-troll me and can't seem to tolerate that they aren't Renzo Novatore or the Ubermensch or anything like that.

Welcome to the foyer which leads to the gateway of the abyss my bold fellow nihilist, Nihilist, there is still the yet to encounter stairwell down to irreverent rancour and sovereign contempt, prepare to cast thy teeth into the sarcastic jeering and taunting malediction!

Gender is just another bullshit construct that deserves nothing less than obliteration. You boring people ranting about gender sound as interesting as my shit splashing is a toilet bowl.

When will nihilists spend more time conspiring attacks on industrial society and less time babbling about gender theory?

Cute little baby boy, you don't need culture to tell you that standing up to have a pee against a tree is the logical design nature has provided if you don't want to wet your feet. GET OVER IT!!

Gene Pool is a dead-beat-Dad

Can't ya'll just see yourself kicking back in Ziggles fantasy. Licking the stamps...

Really? Yes, there are same-sex civil marriages in Britain yet I have never seen two males walking down the street holding hands, let alone kissing! Gender fluidity has a long way to go still. Blue for boys and pink for girls is still as ingrained as ever.

Really? This isn't my experience of much of Britain at all.

The only place I actually saw men kissing in public was in Sevilla. Now adays I don't even see hetero-sexy straight couples kissing in public, and rarely do I see them holding hands, in part probably because I don't live in a city.

There's this shared opinion among a lot of people (and I've fallen into this trap) that generally authoritarianism is less brutal than it used to be in the wealthy "developed" world, but overall repressive stigmas still seem to be in full force. The whole voluntaristic element of modern capitalist society tends to obscure this, but I don't look at people and see liberated individuals who have truly "found themselves" and are free of resentful hangups...

Who is this ridiculous fake " Nihilist " posting here!

For any nihilist worth spit it would be a matter of complete fucking indifference is authoritarianism was going up, down or flatlining!

Take your bullshit phony nihilism and shove it up your fake-nihilist arsehole!

There is an excellent article on the Strange Story of the Gay Fascists

Its 10 years old now and sadly needs updating. We could perhaps collaborate on that? Make a Wiki somewhere?

I'm also working on a similar piece on the Gay 'Left fascist' ie Gay Marxists including some like 'left-communists' that some anarchists claim we should associate with for some reason. Anonymous help is weaker so that will need corroboration, but any and all help appreciated! Tia.

"Left Fascist"

Who needs shared vocabulary, right?!

but because of my material conditions I had to do a man's job. I became strong of sinew and tendon and produced efficiently even as the real men looked on with amused skepticism. There were times when I was free to be happy and gay and consort with other radical folks.

Sometimes I still have to walk like a man and talk like a man because non conformance can mean sinking to the bottom of the hierarchy which isn't such a bad thing as long as you get what you need. I've tried to declass upwards and downwards for maximum mobility and versatility.

I still come out whenever I can and as a bit of an ultra queer I put my skin in the game and take substantial risks. Even if I have to cover I never give up on the art of the self and pick it back up as soon as possible.

Call me a moonbat but i think if people read The Faggots and Their Friends Between Revolutions they would have a more subversive conception of sex and gender expression.

I read that book long ago when I was only 19. It crammed every male into categories defined by the system: "real men", "queer men", "faggots", and "queens". The only reality basis for this was where you fit on the gender-temperament spectrum. Polly-parroting these imposed identities occurred in great part because male yin (particularly in predominantly feminine men) had NO opportunity to develop/self-organize in a healthy way when that book was written (way back in 1976 or something). I doubt it has a lot more now.

Two-spirit is a better word for gender-atypical males than "queer" (which is a somewhat less hostile version of "pervert"). "Savages" (normal humans) impose no label on someone based on whether they are physically intimate with a man, a woman, or both. Promiscuity and hyper-promiscuity do not exist in hunter-gatherer-permaculturist ("savage") human societies.

I didn't want to share Marxist vocabulary on a putatively anarchist site, but, yes...Marxists were calling each other ' Red Fascists" from the early 1920's on. So anonymous cowards here are entitled to their own Trollish spam and opinions; but they're not entitled to their own facts. Then read " The Communist Manifesto " and tell me that's not a fascist document!

Left fascism is Marxism. And Left fascist Chekists have been killing anarchists for the last 100 years. Deal with it.

>everyone who disagrees with me is a literal coward and troll.
Nice logik m8...

>Then read " The Communist Manifesto " and tell me that's not a fascist document!
Did. Isn't.

>Left fascism is Marxism. And Left fascist Chekists have been killing anarchists for the last 100 years. Deal with it.

Has literally nothing to do with anything, go and masturbate into ur history books somewhere else.

Rat is pretty unhinged on that topic. It's actually old-school, proper use of the term "trigger"!

As in, that person dissolves in to hysterical gibberish and won't be able to reason again until they calm down.

A bit like a cross between Crocodile Dundee and Max Stirner after 9 tequila slammers m8!

Rat is definitely wrong here (tankies are terrible, but when we say fascism we mean a certain thing, and that's not it), but as a clarification of terminology:

"Anonymous coward" doesn't literally mean coward, it's a term from slashdot. Or at least, it doesn't necessarily mean a literal coward. @news used to be a slashdot clone (the old open source code, not the current site), and on slashdot, the default name if you're not logged in is "Anonymous Coward"; here it's "Anonymous", like on most image boards.

who disagrees with ME is a Misogynist, Homophobic, Transphobic, Non-binaryphobic, Racist, Xenophobic, Ableist, Imperialist Monster!

Yes, we fucking noticed, thanks...

Nihilophobic scum mostly remonstrate my carelessness and cuss in their predictable asinine way.

meglomaniacs, has indoctrinated people into individualism and now people are no longer mentally capable of solidarity. Solidarity is viewed as pauper politics and we're all so beyond that, aren't we? Indentity is part of that atomising of energy, disappating the collective energy which was so successful previously. Solidarity is for sheeple,right? The egoists, though few in number, also falsely believe they are beyond the pauperism of solidarity...wood for the trees.

There are associations of individualists who were former sheeple and ignorant church going peasants who reeducated themselves and escaped the mediocre obtuse obscene horde values and perverted crass emotional sentimentalities though, its not like ALL collectives are moronic unwashed gatherings of simple odorous herd cretins with peurile clonish fetishes to satisfy.

it's insane that you would write "Woman and Man" are "concepts that have now been sidestepped, and may no longer be worth directly confronting" in the same week we find out the government is literally trying to legislate the concept that there are only Women and Men.

To the joker speaking of "actual paid hits"

I say:

"Hunt me down, seek me out, bring your best... That's how I want it to be!"


I've been wanting to comment on this, and haven't had time this week til now. I think this brings up some interesting questions about the give and take of gender performance and roles. Ones that as a cisgender male I don't frequently have to deal with myself, but which many people I care very much about do.

I find that people in my circles tend to reject gender constructs and yet still fall in to some of the socially expected roles they would be bestowed. Obviously this isn't universal, but there is a dynamic of men being out in front as the talking heads/representatives, women often being in supportive roles (emotional care-taking, shit-work, etc.) While this is clearly reductive of actual individuated experience, it still tends to be how things play out writ large, at least from an outside perspective.

It's bullshit, but it is also the world we live in. That it is the world we live in should be no reason for capitulation, but it is also a cop out to pretend we don't swim in the same poison waters as everyone else. I don't have an answer, but I appreciate that others are thinking about this stuff.

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