TOTW: Creating Online Anarchist Spaces

  • Posted on: 29 January 2018
  • By: @muse

In the past, anarchistnews.org hosted an IRC chat for interested people to converse in real time, and we’re thinking of bringing it back. If not IRC, then something more modern such as Matrix.

Online spaces for anarchist discussion are seriously lacking, and although many anarchists denounce ‘tech’ because they believe it is harmful to our social relationships or because they don’t trust it, using anarchist infrastructure to communicate with each other surely must be better than using other social media platforms such as Facebook or Twitter. And although IRC and other alternatives may seem too obscure or technical for some, everyone can benefit from learning a little bit about how online networking and security works.

For those who don’t know, IRC users can create ‘channels’ based on topics. These channels could be reading groups that discuss texts on a weekly basis, or topic-centered discussions on green anarchism, prison abolition, egoism, or whatever a user's heart desires. They could be project-based discussions or event-based discussions. They could be announcements or calls for content. They could be workshops and skill shares. Or they could be real-time discussions of social dramas as they unfold.

Would you be interested in participating in an online chat like this? What are some of the uses you envision that could enrich our online communication while freeing ourselves from the grips of Facebook’s attention-hijacking algorithms? What are your concerns?

Relatedly, what are your thoughts about why these once-prevalent online anarchist spaces have dwindled to almost nothing? And how can we create online anarchist spaces that don’t suffer the same fate?

Comments

one could use autistici/inventari, syndie, gnu social or one of the other ones for online privacy and/or security.

a lot of the "anarchist" forums/chats on bigger social networks like discord/facebook/reddit are chalk full of identity politicians and annoying social justice warriors cliques. it can be funny to read sometimes, but it gets old fast.

*chock full* ffs

Thank you for these recommendations! I'm not familiar with them and will definitely have to check them out.

@ @muse Tue, 01/30/2018 - 09:02

Ones recommended on this site https://prism-break.org/en/ are pretty solid options for whatever it is you want to do minus riseup.net and a lot of the proprietary applications. I'm not sure why riseup is even on there. Riseup is US based and that should cause concern for anyone concerned about their privacy and security. They comply with warrants and have recently despite their FAQ stating otherwise and they never would. Then there was the time riseup was busted storing emails people thought they deleted on their server. Riseup tried to tell a BS lie claiming they don't store logs, let alone emails users believed they deleted on their server. In other words, avoid riseup

Regardless of how you feel about their decisions around the gag order in the past year, for what it's worth, you can now enable encrypted storage of your e-mails through http://user.riseup.net which will make them inaccessible without your password. They should've implemented something like this many years ago and could have avoided the recent controversy, but I suppose better late than never.

' you can now enable encrypted storage of your e-mails through http://user.riseup.net which will make them inaccessible without your password' in theory. with all the fuckups they have made do you really trust them to do this right?

I'm not aware of other fuckups you're alluding to beyond complying with the order last year. Being based in the US, they had a choice in their situation: 1. shut down all their services, delete everything, and risk jail time -- 2. Comply. These are shitty options but there really wasn't a third one. They argue they chose to comply because they firstly didn't see anything that appeared to actually be incriminating in the e-mail account being asked for, the crime being investigated wasn't political, and they felt a big weight of responsibility to keep all their services going for thousands of people rather than burn it all down. I understand why they made the decision they did, however, what I chiefly disagree with is their lack of foresight that led to being put in this very situation. They could have their organization or business or whatever registered outside the US and they would not be subject to National Security Letters that they're legally forbidden to talk about and they could also have implementing some form of encrypted storage (at the very least) many years ago. It's not a very complicated technology. They've been trying to play catch-up the past year by implementing things like that because they feel really stupid I think for being put in that situation. They also seem to think that the benefits of being based in the US outweigh the concerns because in the US they're able to get the legal assistance of organizations like the EFF and ACLU and shit like that if they need to but I am also of the opinion that they would be better positioned and less vulnerable being legally based in another country.

So having said all that, I understand why people wouldn't trust them now but based on the facts of what happened I'm not so much of the opinion that I don't trust them, just that I think they made dumb decisions that led them to being forced to make even dumber ones. There is, ultimately, supposed to be an advantage to using riseup, that it's run by comrades. Protonmail overall I think is a good project and seems to be legit people running it who are not malicious...but they're not comrades. I have an extra level of trust with Signal knowing it's run by comrades. It means something, but comrades make stupid choices also, unfortunately.

@Wed, 01/31/2018 - 14:20

You can do that with any email with pgp/gpg. You should use pg/gpgp anyways if concerned with privacy and/or security in your emails and/or files.

There's more than the complying with warrants. A few years ago, people found out they were storing emails and logs on their server and riseup was then caught lying about it. That did it for me. The complying with warrants didn't help with their trust factor for me.

Technically none of those web email services are 100% fool proof and secure. Using your own email server is the best bet for security, but not everyone can do that. :(

Have any sources for this "people found out they were storing emails and logs on their server and riseup was then caught lying about it." ?

Might be a great idea to bring back Anews chat, but please avoid JS as much as possible.

While probably not impossible, avoiding JS would make it more difficult to set up a browser-friendly chat. I'm guessing it makes you cringe to turn on javascript in your Tor Browser? JS has its problems, but you need it sometimes.

I would also say that if it's an IRC server that's used, you could configure an IRC client to go through Tor for accessing it if you don't want to use a JS-based webchat for it. There are guides online for doing this for every major client.

I would say it is impossible, for all practical purposes. Browsers don't do real-time content changes without some sort of JS, afaik.

Matrix also has standalone apps which can (presumably) be routed through Tor, though I've never used them. As long as it's not something centrally hosted by a third-party service (like Discord) that blocks on IP, I would imagine anything could be routed through Tor.

As I recall, the original IRC wasn't used very frequently, but that might be because it wasn't placed particularly prominently. I'd probably give it another shot if it was set up though.

The goal is not necessarily to create a 'browser-friendly' chat. In fact, one goal is to bring those browser-chatters into the fold a bit, so to speak, of how to navigate the web without relying on large companies making it slick and easy (and making you the product in the process).

So yes, there will be no JS on my watch! :)

Are online spaces for anarchist discussion seriously lacking though? Have they really dwindled to nothing? Or perhaps it is just the discussion happening there that is lacking and not the space of nothingness. Of course, ANEWS is one of few places remaining on Internet and especially anarchist web where you have anonymous comments still. In North America it seems the most popular other anarchist websites like IGD, CrimethInc., and Black Rose either don't have comments at all. Some like Black Rose have a "members only area" (picture Anarchist Black Cat forums meets Libcom meets NEFAC) and CrimethInc. and IGD have Twitter and Facebook for all their social media desires. I think the other biggest one would be Reddit Anarchism, which has a ton of participation and for a while there early on was one of most popular subreddits on the very popular site (Reddit). It also seems to be the most easily made fun of, just look at the meta drama that used to happen every other week or so and probably still does.

r/anarchism has also had an IRC for many years, but as of a recent check-in there are 28 people there. And the topic says that the channel is dead and everyone has gone to Croatan (Discord). Curious, around last summer or so I visited the main Discord associated with Reddit Anarchism and it only took a few hours to get permanently banned. The moderators apparently didn't take kindly to the ideas of anti-civ and green anarchy being discussed and the ban hammer came quickly, although admittingly - it was probably also the slight humor for the humorless souls. The amazing part about the Discord chat was that there was over 1,000 people in an anarchist chat, not all logged in at the same time, but participants over time. My guess is because a bunch of nerds also use it to talk over video games, meanwhile real anarchists have day jobs and use Twitch to coordinate the lit turnt AF v on fleek squad fam. Does anyone have a favorite online anarchist chat that is active outside of Discord (IRC, xmpp, Matrix)?

So, where is there room for growth in the online anarchist discussion? I think it is the lack of direction involved, as from my experience it is just people chatting away about whatever, while a couple of people use it to actually work on anarchist projects. Yeah, chatting is nice and all; certainly the thoughtful exchange of ideas and stuff can be nice, especially if you find yourself isolated from the terrible community, but to where does this lead? Is there a way for anarchists to use online discussion to work towards two, three...many projects? What does that look like (online e offline)?

Some quick concerns are privacy and the security of those involved. ANEWS is trusted and all, but obviously these places are honeypots for the plethora of bad actors out there. It's happened before and unfortunately it will happen again.

What is most secure (easily accessible) anarchist chat? Matrix via Riot chat seems quite aesthetically pleasing, xmpp via client, or something else entirely? IRC doesn't seem to be secure, but as non-tech (see anti-civ reference above) it's tough to really comment on such things.

ps. where's emile? are they in IRC chat?

A lot of security concerns around communication are less relevant when it's a public chat, but I do think it's a concern that if someone says something foolish it's tied to their IP address. On IRC, by default, you can view any user's IP address. It's possible for them to use Tor or a VPN which would obscure it, but most people probably won't do it. Don't know if there's a way for the service provider to avoid this problem but it would be nice if there is.

Hm this is actually a good point. Some people here are savvy enough to know how to mask their IP on IRC, but it's definitely not trivial, and I'm guessing most people wouldn't even know that's something you need to do. My understanding of IRC says there's no easy way to fix this server side either. Forget law enforcement, what's to stop some upstart neo-nazi 4chan skiddie from doing a /whois on everyone in the server? I remember hearing somewhere that Berkeley students get their own static IPv4 address for life, so if they're using it to connect, they can be uniquely identified. Plus, standalone IRC clients often autofill stuff like your name and email from the OS, so even if you just hope everyone has a decent firewall and uses a large consumer ISP with dynamic IPs, with enough users, someone is going to have a bad day.

It's important to be explicit that the goal is not to provide an air-tight super-secure community for discussing illegal planz. People without the knowledge to obscure their IP should participate with the expectation that the content is not private (just as they hopefully do when they're on Facebook or using Gmail).

That said, of course the server will take precautions to cloak IPs and whatever else can be done to protect people's identities. In addition, one of my biggest hopes is that security-minded people will participate and point out fantastic flaws such as this, so that we can all be wiser. This is a really great point to think about.

Thanks, this is exactly the type of response I was hoping to read. Keeping people's expectations reasonable, while doing the best we can to help those who don't waste their energy on keeping informed about this crap, is exactly the attitude is the best we can hope for -- less l33t hax0r clubs, less "just use facebook!", more sustainable alternative communities online.

agreed, although I do secretly hope it's a little l337 at least!

in addition I do hope there is a breadth of @ conversation that can happen where those kinds of security concerns are irrelevant. Do you have any thoughts on what you hope those sustainable communities might look like, and what conversations you would like to participate in?

/join #1337
I'm down!:)

@news online mystery of 2018 to unfold over the next few months is,,,Where is emile? Has he found another anarchist space? Has he become silent?

I was finally able to disconnect emile, by not only pulling his logic memory circuit boards out, but also by deactivating his fetch, decode, execute, and memory access modules in such a way as he can't write back to his CPU clock. I think he still might be able to power back up using a hidden latent core cache, but I'm not sure. It could all be just a temporary fix. But for now, let's be grateful for the silence.

If he comes back, I'm not sure what else I can do.

Sorry to inform you that I'm in possession of his latent core cache which I'm editing in preparation for a block-buster Hollywood epic called ' The Cyber-Droid Program which Conquered NA Anarchist Space ' I could use your story Dave and cast you as the quintessential Arch-nemesis.

Can someone make this into a space opera?!?!

I also wrote a script for a sequel to "Good Will Hunting" that was to re-cast Robin Williams before he died. Protagonist would be a smelly obnoxious neckbeard stilll in teenage crisis at 38 years old, who's wasting most his life copying and pasting pices of pomo philosophy mixed with obscure 19th century physics theory and semantics, in between his shifts at the Dairy Queen. I thought critics would be raving about this new masterpiece where the character in the end finally makes it to Yale in a convertible car with a newfound (male) love interest... Tentatively titled "Saving Emile".

Was thinking a movie titled Dave Bowman does Uranus would suit the topic more accurately?

I was thinking of 2018: A Spacial Plenum Oddity

CUT ! CUT ! CUT ! I won't have these nickel a dime so-called actors using sex as a gimmick because that's the only emotional depth they have, being in bed with someone. Epic movies require epic politics and the emotions which they inspire like conquest, rape, pillage, depravity. Give me a thousand unemployed socialist anarchist extras and I'll produce the greatest and most sordid story ever told, the life of a cyber-android with leftist software.

Or a psychological thriller Hitchcock-esque biography of Max Stirner's tumultuous life battling the tyrannies of Marxist doctrine and attempting to lead the masses away from a totalitarian existence on an epic cerebral cortex sojourn through the toxic authoritarian regimes dominating the Western psyche!

C'mon Dave, emile isn't stupid, he encrypted his latent core cache and stores it in an email attachment at rise up! The only thing he was paranoid about was being PARANOID !

Emile has gone to Easter Island to study the statues there which are busts of Stirner, the natives there worshipped Stirner and placed the statues around the coastline to ward off any invading colonialist spooks and stuff.

>Are online spaces for anarchist discussion seriously lacking though?... ANEWS is one of few places remaining on Internet and especially anarchist web where you have anonymous comments…

True, anews is a great place for discussing, well, anarchist news. A chat network could be broader but more importantly, it would be very different from comments’(anews, twitter, FB) or forum posts (Reddit) because it would be real-time chat with channels created on the fly organized (or disorganized) however a user wants. Centralized communities such as /r/anarchism are larger and try to be inclusive which results in lots of ‘infighting’ and ‘meta-drama’ that could be avoided with smaller, more isolated channels. Don’t like the conversation? Go start your own channel, bud. It’s literally as easy as /join #IHateAntiCiv and then you can register yourself as a founder and mod all your friends.

>So, where is there room for growth in the online anarchist discussion?

I am personally interested in participating in ‘salon’ style conversations that are topic-based, project-based, or event-based. The benefit of using something like IRC is its simplicity. There is no need to go through an elaborate process of building a chat infrastructure or establishing community guidelines or creating a structured community that’s palatable to the larger community as a whole (though people are certainly welcome to do so in their own channels). There’s plenty of room for people to have their own conversations.

>Is there a way for anarchists to use online discussion to work towards two, three...many projects? What does that look like (online e offline)?

This is putting the cart before the horse a little, no? Before this, is there a way for anarchists to use online discussion? And I think the answer is yes, though many previously-existing attempts have failed. I don’t promise that this approach will solve all of the problems of the old approaches, but I do promise that it will provide space for interested users to prototype those solutions and put them into practice.

"Are online spaces for anarchist discussion seriously lacking though?"

WIth only Anews and a subreddit as the only not-too-snitchy platforms I know in the English language, I could say that, yes, there aren't enough. Do you Facebook? Obviously, I don't.

"where's emile?"

Where's ur brain? Still craving for more domination from another? You're such an anarchist, Rocinante!

' IRC doesn't seem to be secure'

IRC isn't insecure. you can tor and irc, hide your hostname, etc. etc. etc. there are many ircd's that aid in this.

There's #anticiv on irc.freenode.net

An important aspect is being able to connect to it via a web browser so everyone doesn't have to download and figure out how to use an IRC client. All the major IRC networks have something like this available, such as this one: https://webchat.freenode.net/

Could also more easily piggyback on an existing network, like the one above, and denote the associated anews channels with a prefix in the name like "#anews-general, #anews-books, etc.). It sounds like you're talking about the desire to have multiple channels, and I see no advantage to it being on a "friendly" server, given that all the discussion would be publicly available and can be joined and listened to by anyone.

Also doesn't have to be IRC as others have mentioned, could be another easily accessible public chat system.

I disagree. I do not think it is necessary nor desirable to lower the barrier for participation. I think that interested participants should have a modicum of knowledge about what they're getting themselves into when they chat on the internet. I have to smile a bit when people tell me they are concerned about internet security while we're chatting on social media platforms... :)

I do not think it is necessary nor desirable to lower the barrier for participation.
Is it possible to lower it any further?!? What is this, Voyage to the Center of the Earth?

:D take my hand, friend! ADVENTURE!

(edit: in fact, I think the first channel I'll create will be called The Center of the Earth)

All online anarchist spaces are usually crap, especially discord and reddit.
Mods always have sutch a ban boner and authoritarian mindset while there always exists a clique of people who dominate the narrative. There barely is ever any real engagement with anarchist material (good discussions or projects) as most people their understanding of anarchism is based on old left crap from youtube videos or just people saying what they are supposed to say in an echo chamber. Oh and a fuckton of people see radical politics more as a product to be consumed, especially with memes.

There is some seriouse society of spectacle shit going on in online spaces, maybe debord offed himself cause he knew eadical politics would become what he warned folk about in capital.

But what would i know, just an anon. Desu

I agree. There are no existing online communities that I am interested in participating in for these reasons. Well, except for anews, of course! ;)

https://raddle.me
Check the wiki for chat information.

Yep, a huge problem in these places is generally new people fresh into being radicals looking to feel in control. If they are middle class and under 24 they generally have a lot of free time in front of a computer.

This ends up in an Anarchist Memes situation where a bunch of newbies take it over, flood it with junk and non anarchist stuff, ban hundreds of people and end up becoming Marxists or Democrats after college. Seriously, I think all the people who used to run that site are not anarchists any longer.

So what do you do? Have an anarchist litmus test for mods? Ban people from personal attacks? Online spaces will be flooded with manipulators wanting to assert some control. And there will always be a wave of brain dead people looking to join whatever outrage cult they can sign up to on whatever day of the week. So, what do you do?

I was a mod on r/anarchism and saw the insanity first hand. So I do have some first hand experience.

the thing I like the most about the irc model is that people can be their own mods for their own channels and have whatever rules about who to admit to the channel as they'd like. Then they will be prototyping mod models as well. it would be like prototyping tiny anarchist communities!!

'I was a mod on r/anarchism'
Which one? i'm curious as an ex-r/anarchism user ( /u/squee-). That place has turned into the literal worst thing i could imagine. when i look at it i can't even bring myself to call myself an anarchist. honestly..

IMO It's not necessary to agonize over anonymity/privacy because it's only supposed to be a place for shit-talk and theory.

That should be explicit but there's always going to be idiots who are beyond helpful criticism about sketchy behaviour and I don't think the hosts are responsible for that.

I'd participate but I'd go in with very low expectations so the trolls don't break my little black heart haha

this is exactly the intention--it may not necessarily be air-tight secure, but dammit, it's autonomous!

Plus we'd make less work for the mods if at least some of the shit-posting migrates to the chat!

Was cool because people would drop in through the day and we would have actual conversations, this was before the big makeover. I think web chat is the way to go for accessibility and participation. Nobody talks in IRC much anymore so I'm not real optimistic about the success of topical chats but I'd be willing to try it. We have our own channels that we chat in but it's mostly just BS and fun stuff, most of the big channels are silent.

I think IRC is fine and I think a web frontend like Shout is fine: http://shout-irc.com/

To address some earlier concern about IP addresses, but I don't think the Shout web app discloses user IP addresses. This could be easily tested. Also, the web app frontend is super easy and you can use it on a smart phone in your smart phone's web browser. Soooooooooooo.... right, I think IRC is the way to go with this. It's flexible and even though it's not the hot new shit (like Discord), it's time-tested and it has a strong international user base. It also still has a strong warez Scene ...though not so relevant.

I think... what happened with anarchists chatting is basically just tech adaptation stuff. Smart phones came out. Facebooks came out. Reddit. Occupy. People got older and busier. And the chat infrastructure rotted away. I'm sure people (like me) just figured one of these new platforms would become a standard for chat, but that just never really happened: anarchist or not anarchist. Public chat just hasn't found its new standard yet and there's a headache of competing platforms.

Also just y'know, it's not THAT BAD to be at cyber war with haters. Just plan to fail well. It can be fun. Holy shit have some fun!

I would definitely participate as long as

1. It was browser based
2. Any mods that existed were there to deal with spam and extreme trolling like making the place unusable.

Honestly if something like Discord could be anonymous it might just be useful to have an anarcho chat there that isn't left identity politician ban everything that seems bad chats that exist. Would be a good way to piss off the existing leftbook fakers and it would likely be pretty popular.

Oh IRC? I will get to work on an emile bot right now.

The Och.io imageboard has interesting discussions from @101 questions to pretty solid analysis IMO.

Explain anime anarchism to me in 10 words or less please

It honestly doesn't. it's a bunch of brenda-no-mates idpol keyboard shutins that watched so much anime they turned trans because they wanted to be cute anime girls that are designed by men for the consumption of men. it's so pathetic it hurts my brain.

And on top of all that it's full of rampant leftism, the worst kind of leftism that's reserved for teenagers that have no life experience. the last time i visited there people were equating living on the land as fascist because of the whole 'blood and soil' stuff. also, the Basic Living Income is also a fascist idea... those kids are so dense.

+ nix and her little minions accuse anyone that doesn't agree with them of being a 'oinky-bro-socialist-terf-fasicsts-from-8chan/pol'. it's pathetic.

I'm shocked and amazed how the WORST imaginable tech ends up being the trendiest, most popular. That tells a lot about the level of intelligence/carelessness of most people out there, and is the first reason why I've abandoned thr revolutionary paradigm... Because even if it gets to work, what kind of revolution are we gonna get? Looking at how so many have sold out to Facebook and still are, it'd be something far worse than thee Bolsheviks revolution.

"Nous pensons que plus il y a de gens qui consultent la page plus le risque de répression sera diffus. En utlisant Facebook le but est de justement pouvoir aller atteindre plus de gens qui ne sont pas nécessairement dans les sphères militantes."

Taken from a recent article on Mtl Counter-info. Just to show you a blatant example of the dumb, careless, servile rationale that makes even anarchists sell out to corporate social media. Based on the deluded dual principle that if enough people use Facebook, they'll be harder to surveil and control, and that Facebook means attracting masses of people to your campaigns. Two wrongs that don't make a right.

Keep in mind that this is on one of those prominent @ sites that have refused to allow comments... yet on the other hand it's all cool when it's Facebook taking care of the comments on their pages, and the visitors as well.

So Anews, if you wanna start a new chat service, go for it! There's nothing like self-managed comtechs based on GPL code.

It is simple and it is true. There is plenty of evidence now mounting that online doesn't bring people together in a meaningful way, assuming meaningful way is to create substantial change in real life. Tech is like voting: it's all smoke and mirrors. However, just as voting, it takes a long time for people to realise the con trick and some people will never face the con. Communities and families have been broken up in order to stop people forming a common bond. You're not individuals as such, you've been atomised.

this is exactly the kind of comment I expected to receive (and was surprised not to see more of!)

it may be true that communicating online does not force the same kind of bond as communicating face to face. however, (1) we are already communicating online, so might as well create our own autonomous spaces to do so, (2) for some of us, it's all we have due to a lack of in-person options, and (3) the purpose doesn't necessarily have to be social, we can also collaborate on projects such as information exchange and techie shit. I'd love to live in a diy closed-economy utopian commune as much as the next person, but the truth is that such physical communities are unsustainable under the present regime. so we'll do what we've always done, what we're good at--find spaces to carve out moments of autonomy, even if they're fleeting or imperfect.

Who has mentioned utopia? I didn't; you did! Also, you appear to be almost shrugging off face to face communicating to the point that it is not that much more potent than online? Well,you're dead wrong about that as more and more evidence is being put forward for the damage, yes damage, this online so-called life is doing to people, let alone the environment...hidden costs typically. How can a person lack in-person options? That clearly tells you, if that is the case, that something is fundamentally wrong. Moments of autonomy online, really? How does that manifest itself? There are 'rules' everywhere, online and offline. I'm not buying your argument.

woah, there! I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but we're communicating online right now as we speak, no?

*whoa*

Whoa there! I notice you didn't answer my points relating to you appearing to devalue face to face and your comment (not mine) about seeking utopia and that person to person communication is not possible for everyone. Also, I would add that, in my opinion, the internet and the damage it is doing is now becoming apparent, something akin to a Frankenstein monster. Still, no matter what, there of those of you who are determined to continue along the tech route which I just don't understand. Do you think the criticisms of online technology, smart cities etc are unjust? Do you really believe you have greater autonomy now, with the internet? You are turning into a virtual anarchist. You will tucked away in some small cell of a living space where you will 'live' online. Your food, water will have to be real which is shame for you. However, they will invent virtual food and water... But you won't need much food as you will be physically stationary with your muscles wasted away wearing a nappy or just covered in your own feces... Even your sex robot will dump you. Ah, forget about it, you're already dead. Wow, I fuckin' enjoyed that rant. Whoa there indeedy!

Trolling in to the void is probably peak techno-death. You're smashing on your keyboard, saying nothing interesting to nobody in particular. It's cathartic for you but completely pointless from a practical-use-of-the-tool POV. Like a monkey with a typewriter! Perhaps you'll accidentally write something interesting but how would you know the difference?

True, my old Serbian commie buddy was right against Western socialists... The issue's not the "individualism" much demonized by socialists, but really fucking socially-generated atomization.

The problem with Matrix is that nobody will use it, Discord can do one, too. it's clearly a fed honey-pot. I vote IRC with an .onion address.

I would love to hear more about Matrix. I myself am not a fan of the riot app (like I'm not trying to use Slack here!), but I want to try other Matrix frontends.

Has the Wire app been dismissed yet?

not as far as I know. I'll check it out.

The install and setup could be automated.

in addition to creating how-to guides, this is an excellent idea!

Just get off your pizza-laden ass and meet others in the real world. Meeting in the real world is now activism not just socialising. Online anarchy spaces will be the death of real anarchy. Don't say you didn't really know this. People can be very lazy and once the habit of anarchy online takes root, you will find it hard to get back. Most people who put on weight never get back to full fitness, not through the want of trying.

Blaming technology is stupid IMO. If having a few more places for a few hundred people to discuss things online is "the death of real anarchy", sounds like a mercy killing to me. I put lots of emphasis on physical spaces and real relationships too but what's @news against zuckerberg's ship of fools?

Online anarchy's cool and always been only cool when it's about hacking-related and to some extent online security and coding exploits. And fun cracking warez n shit (whatever happened to mass-maiers anyways?) Like what's on that 0chan.io site, that's pretty much the same shit on the hacking forums/BBS there was at any point in Internet history. Beyond that and Anews... what else should it be, beyond some life-sucking social media?

Tech is the devil, okay... but it's also us. Or like a result of what's being produced as a fucked up society. Cool pipedreams about a Star Trek future are cool, yet you first gotta solve the problem of the social relationship and social relations in general (if it deserves or can be fixed).

0ch has no hacking/exploitation discussion, just a board for it. it's a shame. i would love to set up some kind of forum or chat for other anarchists interested in or wanting to learn 'offensive security', binary exploitation, web-app hacking, etc. etc.

I agree that the educational content of sites likes 0chan is near crap, but you know... that's as chan as it'll get, which means mentally-reductive. I think the best educational outlet was "2600" but I think they're dead nowadays, and today it's true that onions and eep sites have been vastly underused for hacking/cracking skillshare, it's motly fucking an-cap activity and illegal porn.

Nowhere near the rich online h4x0r milieus you had in the '90s up to the early '00s. The Cypherpunk and Cult of the Dead Cow types have got old and some possibly sold out, while I'm sure some others are involved in things like the Guardian Project and yet it's not nearly enough. Like, where do I learn the cheap Java tricks to mass-upvote threads on Reddit or hack Facebook accounts? I don't have the money and energy to spend on 3 years studying Java at university.

Facebook generation usually aren't into command line. They'll write smartass edgy one-liners, but they're not commanding any machine doing that, it's the opposite..

Formal education should be wound down and become an instructional exchange of subjective desires and needs or deeds, since curriculum, if not based on a relevant regional requirement for sustainable independent existence becomes a totalitarian indoctrinating conveyor belt in a centralized social-power generating bureaucracy ,

You just stopped at 1/67th of your po-mo essay missing, Emile... What happened? Suddenly fell over a life realizating event of vast mutitude-subjectivity ratio in the regional discourse? Where's your relational language now!? Muahahaha!

What a trip! Could be a Black Mirror episode.

Fairy lights in the basement made @news my fav space

Develop Lamborn Wilson's TAZ into permanent creative zones. These PCZeds have moved on from the impermanence of the nomadic uncertaintainty and offer a grounded base which enables permacultural residency from where an online space gains legitimacy.

Being sedentary especially on the countryside is rough, where also the gang/clan dynamics tend to be exacerbated, to a point people may lose sight of their own ideas and motivations. Also taking care of a piece of land is a long-term and tough commitment. Many youngsters, especially urbanites, will sneer only at the word "commitment". But what about those who'll be enough committed... what will keep them from excluding the lesser-engaged, lesser-entangled and more nomadic people?

While I'm more of the idea to at least try to be permanent, as being permanent indeed allows for the creation and enrichment of forms of lives that are divorcing from the dominant system. But building a community too often means reinforcing your own clique.

How to prevent from the institutionalization and privatization of the group is a good question. Far too many are not understanding the value of publicizing (opening) things and keeping it as such, or just being careless about it. Therefore the Commune can easily become the same old communal property and the capital that derives from it..

Agreed on the tendency for sedentary existence to precipitate institutionalized methodologies which stifle the spontaneity of unleashed creative energies, maybe these centres would act more as partially temporary bases for the mobile nomadic folk to converge upon which give them some relief from the drudgery and struggles which the nomadic existence exposes one to, especially extreme weather conditions. Just some ideas.,.

spaces? Surely, community is face-to-face? I don't imagine the powerful having any issue 'meeting' online, so I don't see why this is such a big deal! Most people know what needs to happen: namely to build intimate community as it is when people typically care about their environment and each other. Online, as people are realising, is convenient at best and alienating at worst. It amazes that anarchists want to spend so much time online and is a sign of the times. It's like real life community building is just too damn hard. You cannot afford to wasting your time on superfluous crap. Sort of like being a band forever rehearsing and never doing a gig.

Glaringly obvious that face to face is more transparent, organic and corporeal than online relationships, thus more practically anarchistic, being out of the machinery of corporate processes.

'glaringly obvious' is not really a persuasive nor an illuminating argument. is there some reason that 'transparent, organic, and corporeal' is supposed to be superior?

It's sustainable, both psychologically and energy efficient wise. Like meeting someone in the flesh compared to jerking off to a photo of them, or a holography, glaringly superior relationship.

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