Vegan is Anti-Speciesist is Anti-Civ

Contrary to the predatory man-the-hunter myth, hominids have innate empathy and cooperativeness that manifests idiosyncratically in civilization. One such manifestation is veganism, whose central focus is the abstention from needless exploitation of animals. But, conventional anarcho-primitivist pigeonholing of veganism into a consumerist schema has distorted its authentic essence, oversimplifying, distorting, and denouncing it. {Ironically, in practice it is the trending ‘paleo’ primitivist ideologues who engage in more destructive consumerism than even consumerist vegans, and of whom there is a void of conventional primitivist confrontation.} Veganism’s supporting principle is liberation of all animals, with its opposite being human supremacy over all other animals, or speciesism. Innate empathy and cooperation, combined with drive for liberation of all, beckons shifting the nature of humanimal-nonhumanimal relationships from domination and domestication to deferential and symbiotic. Therein veganism fundamentally becomes an anti-speciesist
viewpoint concerned not only with bred ‘pet’ & ‘food’ animals and captive wildlife, but feral wildlife worldwide. This translates into vegan/anti-speciesist deeds like releasing imprisoned animals and protecting forests
from consumeristic exploitation of fauna habitat.

Civilization has proven itself to be an ecologically destructive force, leaving all animals and all biotic-abiotic communities damaged and doomed. The repeated, hard-to-accept lesson is that civilization is the cause of the problem, and cannot be the cure. Hopes for techno-saviors have been repeatedly dashed, often causing further harm with unintended consequences. This is the merging point of speciesism and civilization premises. They are conjoined twins, born together on the artifices of hierarchy and oppression, with maddening successions of human harms along civilization’s catastrophic trek. They will be intrinsically eternally unified until their death, whether through intentional dismantling, unintentional collapse, or a combination. The conjoined counter approach calls for actions such as destroying apparatuses of totalitarian control, undoing oppression, rewilding native habitats, and rewilding self.

A word must be said to those seeking to discover and reawaken origins, striving for a future primitive. The sect of primitivism focused on ‘hunter-gatherism’ (my term) is plagued with patriarchy. Here’s an exercise to visually demonstrate the point: In your mind google ‘caveman’. Compare those images to a google of ‘cavewoman’. Scientific studies, interpretations on early humans and evolutionary narratives, from which anprims extract information to depict the primitive lifeway, are profoundly value-laden. Origin narratives are created, not objectively described realities. Hunter-gatherism naturalizes patriarchy by projecting it into our species’ origins.
Alternative narratives countering civilization’s values, such as ‘vegan primitivism’, tend to be silenced, scorned and sternly denied before due consideration. These oppressive dynamics are countered by conscientiously seeking a broader ancestral life narrative, undermining the values behind patriarchy, and rejecting the rigidity of the evolutionary normative.

Sometimes wording means much. Foraging was the mainstay of most ancestral diets, and a common female specialist activity as sex roles increasingly diverged after the advent of hunting. Many woman never participated in methodical hunting. There were swaths of time with no human hunting or foraging animals at all. Humans mainly subsisted off foraged plants, etc., especially before the systematic use of controlled fire. Yet, the term ‘hunter-gatherer’ is the generally accepted norm connoting the early human foodway. The term ‘forager’ would more accurately reflect the lived egalitarian experience of the vast majority of early humans. Another exercise: Imagine you had been born into a world where all humans had a plant diet. Would you have an impulse to bring back hunter-gatherism, or would you put that in a category similar to other early ‘natural’ doings, like
cannibalism, or rape, or infanticide? Cherry-picking an animal-based diet from diverse past diets because you have been enculturated to prefer it, and regardless of environmental impact, is the mindset that led toward
devastating civilization to begin with.

Earth needs an intuitive yet smart approach from fighting yet giving humans today. Adapting anti-civ, anti-speciesist veganism in today’s degraded wild world calls for an adaptation in our bio-culture that protects remaining habitats, ends causes of civilization’s harms, and helps heal Earth. If a highlight of our species is our ability to adapt to our environment, may we select ways from our origins that enrich an ever-thriving wild future.
Read the title again. The logic works in reverse as well.
-Ria Del Montana

For more information/resources visit:
resistance-- talk-4-2017

i feel you, although i think most people on here are too cool to be vegan anymore - the strugglistas and the egoists alike, both for their own infinitely stupid reasons.

here's something i've written about in some kind of similar previous thread on here - i'll assume you're new, say it and then try not to repeat.

so in a traditional hunter-gatherer culture, "hunting" is not what it is today, where to most people it means simply going out and killing something to eat (or wear or etc). nor is traditional hunting culture "different, better, or more ecological" because "they used every part of the animal" (industrial agribusiness knows how to do this too). the difference is that it was literally sacred - in fact, some have posited that the beginning of hunting (long after the beginning of hominids) was also the beginning of religion as a means of dealing with the guilt of shedding blood, the trauma of becoming carnivore. hunters purify themselves (fasting, sweat lodges, etc), pray, ask permission to harvest an animal, apologize to it and its kin, etc, in other words, their culture deeply inculcates traditional hunters with the realization that taking a life is an extremely serious act only to be done (as quickly/humanely & as sustainably as possible) for genuine need for food. in agricultural societies this sacred killing then took the form of sacrifices, and eventually the likes of kosher/halal slaughter (ancient Israelites apparently only ate meat a few times a year at festivals).

for primitivists to think they can just insert themselves into such a living web of meaning is crazy rn. if they think they can then they don't understand the seriousness of taking life and they really are just larping or are little better than redneck christian survivalists. i don't think there is any argument for anyone with any sort of ecological consciousness that given everything happening on the planet right now the best relation for us to have with animals is to go out and kill them, even those of us who live in places like where deer are "overpopulated" or the like. if being an anarchist taught me anything it's that how you choose to live and struggle changes you far more than it will ever change the world (directly- it's just that the world is made up of those who struggle and live).

cmon yall...b12 is cheap + easy to synthesize. if that changes it will be because industrial capitalism has collapsed already, which makes veganism a different issue in that situation. im willing to have that conversation when we get there.

i think you have a great point about hunting leading to religion in response to personal guilt. i never thought of it that way. b-12 can be synthesized or found in a diet with a variety of different fruits, vegetables, grains and so on. as an individualist anarchist, being vegan is my personal negation to the anthropocentric moral order which justifies the authoritarian human supremacy that commodifys wild beings into objects for consumption.

anyways thanks for sharing your thoughts. would be cool to see an essay or some writing from you floating around on the points you brought up.

glad you could latch onto something interesting and thanks for your thoughts too.

keep in mind about the religion thing i am just putting out a very thumbnail sketch of a theory i think i originally got from kirkpatrick sale who has some very sketchy politics. the book "after eden" i think. worth a look + a grain of salt. i actually think there is a lot more to religion than that, tho, and it has some potentially very positive aspects for individuals as well as colectivities..!

Aragorn! A! was a long time vegan? It would make for an interesting conversation as to whether being vegan is essential or not in relation to green anarchism. LAR describes humans as primates and as such we ought to be eating fruits, leaves, grubs, seeds, nuts: folio frugivore. Vegans (mainstream vegans) also need to understand where there stuff comes from, who makes it, under what conditions etc. The pollution from mining, including all the infrastructure. What are people willing to do? The conversation need not just focus on diet: what are the wider implications of being vegan as opposed to not being vegan? Most people treat non-humans as objects (as property) to be owned and disposed of at a whim! What does that say about us? How are we to achieve anarchy with attitudes such as that? Aragorn! asks what is to be done. He would argue against going vegan, so let's hear the conversation via The Brilliant.

That would be a gift to Ria/Rio, whom I'm sure A! oppose on political grounds. If he did, it'd be to make vegan nihilists and the like look bad, kinda how is episode with LAR was framed inn a way that cheapened her discourse.

her discourse"?
rando specious elbow jabs much?

conversation. I'm sure A! and Ria would also have a respectful dialogue too, so let's hear it. Being vegan is way more than diet and A! knows this too. You could discuss how being vegan impacts our daily life decisions. I was hoping LAR and A! would have discussed this but LAR didn't want to and A! respected that.

I have a lot of respect for the vegan position and the sustainability arguments but man oh man, is it ever cringey when I see appeals to decency, as if convincing a few other anarchists to not eat meat is going to change anything.

It seems to me that this only demonstrates how far out of touch the appeal is, much like when liberals bemoan the erosion of their "democracy".

Like I said ... So far out of touch with most people! Meat eating = rape... Said 0.0000001% of the human population.

But you just want to live in your worldview, not persuade, so that's fine. But why even make appeals to decency then? To sound rightious?

Except you have to rape (and obviously kill) animals for mass industrial meat production, dipshit.

You're equating meat eating with rape and I'm the dipshit? This is what getting drunk on righteousness will do ... Unless you're just trolling?

Less to do with righteousness than having to do with the fact that non-human animals are socially categorized as objects for consumption by a dominant group. Not only hierarchical but also objectifying which those socially assigned as "woman" face as well. The same logic justified the objectification and enslavement of people socially assigned as "black". And by the same logic humans are socially recognized as workers/objects to enslave for preserving industrial society. From sexual assault, rape, psychological coercion and physical confinement, civilization categorizes everyone and conditions internalized commodification of life.

Keep life wild, angry and hostile against all socially constructed governance. Nihilist veganism is a weapon.


It's everything to do with righteousness. I can practically hear you doing big fat bong rips of rightiousness!

But anyway, keep floating that rape and slavery analogy FTW!!! Truth bomb BRO! FISTBUMP!

"Except you have to rape (and obviously kill) animals for mass industrial meat production"

so veganism or mass industrial meat production are the only possible options? come on.

your self-righteousness is rape. (since you obviously take serious liberties with that word, so will i).

Does no one understand they actually rape animals for industrial meat production?

PS - For once it wasn't me threatening to kill the carnivores. People troll as me a lot FYI. Love it!

Zhachev pretending that the anon posts where he didn't sign his name are actually a clever meta-troll that knew we'd recognize the infamous Zhachev's posting style!

I like how your bullshit only makes sense in a world where you're kind of a big deal.

I make promises all the time but seriously, that one wasn't me

You are right. It wasn't you. It was me. And somebody deleted my "death threat" to hunters on here because some speciesist "anarchist" couldn't take a joke. Vegans would never target hunters in a post-civ world, quietly aiming from the shadows. That isnt very "compassion"-like.

It's just really cringey to be fronting like you're such a badass on a forum. Is that what you want? Cringes and eyerolls from all the grownups?

what on earth makes you think i care about eye rolls and cringes from other people?

Zhachevy, I'm totally behind you on" hamburgers are Auschwitz " beautifully juxtaposed and a poetical description of a social tragedy. So are you the noble nihilist anon on this site?

What are the animals saying?

Moooooo moooo, snarrrrrrl grrrrrrr, tweet tweet, purrrrrrr preeen, brarrrrrp doooooohttttiioopit, faaaaaaaark offfffffffffff hoooooooomaaaaaaannnnnns, doooooonnnttt kiiiiiiiiilll myyyyyy baaaaaaabyyyyyy! :(

Carnivore and omnivore: - Boooò hooooo hooooooo :)

that doesn't make sense to me at all unless you think that consumption only matters in terms of "voting with your dollars" which shows how deep into your brain that democracy bug has gotten.

i know me being vegan doesn't change the world - but it changes me as an ethical being. you might as well say "lol who cares about getting anarchists to stop sexually assaulting each other?! the rest of the world will just keep doing it" maybe... but is that the point? do our own ethical existences not matter even to us, first of all? second, is there no hope of setting a positive example?

this was @9:43

Were not we're. Autocorrect = auto-illiterate

non-humans: here is sexism, racism, etc incl human exceptionalism. The scale of our abuse is staggering. And some of the comments on this thread shows the immaturity of some so-called anarchists. Objectification and the real lack of empathy and you call yourself anarchists!!! Have humans now objectified ourselves too? Wake up and feel the pain of the grotesque way 'we live.'

Would love to hang out with ya'll in the forest & have a restoration work party while we chat it over. Response to comments:

I've stumbled upon other authors who've written about hunting rites, rituals & mythologies created to ease the innate human repulsion to killing animals. If you friend request me on farcebook you can peruse books on these & similar subjects. And if you have any writings on related subjects, feel free to share.

Imagine the enculturation that goes into repressing innate empathy. It's mind boggling to consider the impact of civilization's cultures on animals, like even just how we intentionally breed animals to be docile & plump so we can easily mass produce, no matter the suffering of not only individuals of the bred species, but impact on wild species' habitats. Could go on & on.

In early humandome, B12 was acquired by consuming anything that touched soil, like tubers or drinking from creeks that had sediment runoff. I've never supplemented since going vegan 17 years ago, had my nutrition levels checked & was normal range. Wild foods are much more nutrient dense than civilization's take of food.

Regarding hunting overpopulated species, consumerist or purist vegans may not agree, but where reintroduction of indigenous predators is not possible (which should be possible in most deer habitat), I'm not opposed to an approach of for humans to 'eat the invaders', plants and animals, as a restoration method. It would be temporary, until a general homeostasis is achieved, and would rely on humans bringing down their population as well, refinding their niches & natural human habitat ranges. I could go into detail on this, and why I believe this is congruent with veganism, but I'll just say that if A! wants to take me on in interview form, I'd love to discuss rewilding Earth, ecological pedagogy & methodology available to humans everywhere. That's my life's main mission. And he'd have to be open to taking punishment any ex-vegan is due. jj

Much anarchy bliss!


Be not wrathful oh mighty nihilist, lest thou singularity be polluted with the toxins,
That floweth from the anus of thee carrion feeders,
Who feed upon the souls of dead beasts.
Beware, dost thou whiff their gasses in cloistered rooms,
And the pungent arrogant manner in which their flatulence,
Cuts through the nostrils and sinuses,
When they're bonging in your midst?
Alas, make haste and flee to the rose garden,
Which I shall compare thee to fair vegan.,.

Yes, they are bad bongs that blow in the barns of the buffalo eaters!

Hit me up...I'd love to connect. I don't do Facebook, but I have an online profile at Seed Savers Exchange or I'm a vegan forager, organic/vegan seed steward/producer. I don't chase my food or the latest 'bullshit' in the wind politics. I do admire and appreciate your opinions and would like to exchange thoughts. Thanks. Have a groovy day! Positive Vibrations...

". . . It would be temporary, until a general homeostasis is achieved, and would rely on humans bringing down their population as well, refinding their niches & natural human habitat ranges. I could go into detail on this, and why I believe this is congruent with veganism . . ."

your details of how this is congruent with anarchism would also be interesting to hear, especially taking into consideration how you think such a thing could possibly be done (temporarily) in a non-authoritarian way (it couldn't).

i'm not a "consumerist or puritan vegan" (but am an anarchist, nihilist, and also vegan (for over a decade)), for what it's worth, and don't see humans as managers of populations fitting without a massive leap (within the context of the current civilization/society/reality).

all that to say… i'd love to hear it on the brilliant.

me too! Would love to connect! Interested in connecting on facebook or email?

are u me? a/s/l.

nice try, fbi!

but also…

Hi rafie.
you are my favorite singer. I love your songs such sweet jams.

I listened to them all growing up. I'm now in college studying English to become an academic anarchist at one of the ivy league colleges while also founder of the local food not bombs project as well as pink Rosa network for recovering vegan nihilists.

I just finished reading society of the spectacle in one night and I'm pretty sure I understand it perfectly.

I'm not you (nor fbi). Just me, but I will try to figure out the sign up at anarchy planet later. I don't socialize online much but have a couple projects online. I would share the main project here...but then everyone would know who I am lol. I am interested in more nihilist, anarchist vegan writings, zines and people to connect with.

excellent. looking forward to chatting and maybe learning about your projects

Much more to do with setting up that account than I expected. Here is an email addy. Hope to hear from ya. neonblueundertow (A) yahoo (dot) com.

Even just with that little bit in your post I learned a few new things. Thank you for writing and commenting here and I really do hope you get that interview on the ANews podcast. There is a lot to learn from your shared knowledge on topics of vegan anti-civ.

hi Ria, i'm who posted that first long comment about ritual and etc, i don't do fb but am curious about the readings you mention if you could drop some info here! as far as hunting to achieve "homeostasis" i agree there are worse things to do, but i still don't embrace that. how do we know "ecology" but through civilized science? who are the "invaders" after all? indigenist webs of knowing, being and doing have been shredded...i hold that the point isn't to "pre-historically re-enact" our ancestors' lives; we don't live in their world. am checking out your website tho, with interest!

Some books on this and related topics:

A View to a Death in the Morning: Hunting and Nature Through History
An Unnatural Order: The Roots of Our Destruction of Nature
Man the Hunted: Primates, Predators, and Human Evolution
The American Hunting Myth
Animal Oppression and Human Violence: The Vulnerability of Success
A Northwoodsman's Guide to Everyday Compassion (tho this is not anti-civ)
Dominance and Affection: The Making of Pets

I agree that trying to reinvent ourselves as especially recent indigenous peoples is not helpful, and risks being insulting. My focus is more on recovery of ecosystems as a whole, despite this being mainly through the lens of civilized science, and humans finding a wild habitat for themselves based on mutualism not exploitation. At this point we have so removed ourselves from wild communities that we are very ignorant, infant level. Hominids have clearly invaded and colonized the planet, clearly to the detriment of thriving wild. This was done through our spreading out of our habitat and using quick adaptations, overtaking other species and living communities. What I sense and learn through restoration ecology about what wild needs is humans slowing the changes, giving back space especially retreating from wildest remnants, and assisting a 'stepping back' to the most recent thriving time.
Feel free to contact me through my blog. I welcome your honest critique, and your ideas.

When CARE is not given, even in the most minute forms...chaos is created. With chaos comes opportunity for those who don't give a SHIT. Do everyone in the room a favor and close the door behind you when you enter. Inviting chaos invites the wrong opportunity for progress.

Exactly the opposite happening IRL. Leave the door opened, and some orderly person gonna close it. It's the American way!

ANews podcast should interview Ria not just to give voice to and another perspective on veganism, but to get information on what people can do to help wildlife.

Ria seems to be on friendly terms with JZ. I wonder how they avoid the vegan and hunting topics. Just more skirting around the elephant in the room. How can JZ keep reporting on wildlife suffering with civilization and still promote hunting wildlife?

ANews podcast should seriously make this happen!

We brave gay vegans will unleash our ferocious vegetarian and protein supplemented botox enhanced pitbull dogs upon you If you enter our yard!!


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