Welcome to APOCalypse – a national Anarchist People of Color Convergence

  • Posted on: 11 April 2012
  • By: worker

<table><tr><td>From <a href="http://www.apocconvergence.info/">APOC Convergence</a>
Survival Strategies for the New Millennium
July 12th – 14th, 2012
New Orleans, Louisiana

Aah, it’s the moment we’ve all been waiting for: While current paradigms of social, political and economic oppression thrash against their imminent demise, taking the planet down with them, we have an opportunity to rise through the cracks and build a new future.

Through parties, plenaries, workshops, panels, roundtables and space for impromptu discussions, we hope to create space to discuss what it means to organize as anarchists; the future of indigenous solidarity; people-of-color movement history; science fiction; queerness; and conversations on racialization. We’ll have childcare, a kids’ track, an elders’ circle, and a healing justice center to stay sane and together for the long run.</td><td><img title="Every box checked, SHIP IT!" src="http://anarchistnews.org/files/pictures/2012/nucleartown.jpg"></td></tr>...
APOCalypse will gather people of color to discuss, build and share radical anti-authoritarian practices based on autonomy, egalitarian relationships, and justice. This July, we hope to bring together a couple hundred friends, comrades, family members and strangers to New Orleans, Louisiana, to celebrate, re-map, and craft our anti-authoritarian visions and skills for the years to come.

We, as Anarchist People of Color (APOC), share a loose set of politics being anti-authoritarian and a common identity as people of color. We are not a formal organization, political party, non-profit, charity, committee, church group, dance troupe, etc…

We, the coordinators of this convergence, know each other either directly or indirectly from years of organizing, and through APOC connections. Many of us met almost 10 years ago at the first national APOC conference in Detroit, Michigan. We are excited to reconnect, reassess, reunite and meet new people. We aim for this convergence to not just be a reunion though but a multi-generational, multi-dimensional gathering that can offer something for almost every anarchist or politically radical person of color out there.

We hope that participants are looking for dialogues, methods, and theories that resist oppression by understanding the root causes of injustice – while developing strategies for ecologically, politically, socially, and economically sustainable communities. Not everyone coming will be or has to be an anarchist. We just hope that participants will want to build power in ways that are not hierarchical, racist, and heteropatriarchal, but are instead collaborative and horizontal.

We don’t intend this convergence to be a place to hammer out points of unity, build a formal anything or come close to representing all anarchist people of color. We hope that we’ll just get a chance to meet, dream, learn and make some amazing plans.

Please note that we are organizing with and inviting people of color only.

The convergence will be in downtown New Orleans, in the Marigny/7th Ward area. The registration point will be at 1024 Elysian Fields Ave, 70117.

GET INVOLVED! To participate in the convergence, please register at www.apocconvergence.info/registration so that we can prepare for your stay.

We are currently accepting workshop and event proposals. www.apocconvergence.info/call-for-proposals

Feel free to email us with any questions at apocconvergence@gmail.com.

Thank you!


coming to new orleans?
check out what's up here: http://nolaanarcha.blogspot.com/



>semantics matter

>only to academic wankers

It's not as if interpellation stops occurring if you ignore it - that's when it works best!

in before subtle, contrarian apologies for white supremacy!

*insert racist troll comment*


I quit anarchy a long time ago, now I just troll shitty comment threads :D

That is anarchy in my book, comrade :D

awesome, I love apoc. are we going to play identity politics twister again this year? right hand on bi-racial! left foot on queer status. hey kids collect membership to as many oppressed groups as you can and the go forth and DENOUNCE SOMEONE for not adhering to our college-derived ideology! yay I mastered the jargon please let me into your group! I promise to flog myself for every privilege point I have left and we'll all accountability process our way to the revolution!

someone should make a trading card game called "identity politics"

don't worry comrade, already on it.

already done, chaos!

no no, comrade, this will be much better than chaos.

You trolls just love to shit on everybody, huh? Not getting any?

oh yeah well [insert psychoanalysis of why someone would let trolls get under their skin]

Would you rather have a Charzard card or a queer womyn of color card? Guess it depends on what subculture you're in.

Is it racist to want the charzard?

Do Caucasian male anarchists automatically lose, or can we still play your reindeer games if we adamantly decrie the deeds of history and impose a regiment of daily self-flagellation?

allies are a crucial part in the gameplay.

Allies are good for vanguards & parties.

Equals are good for those wanting to kill heirarchy.

aliens are a crucial part in the eternal war, friend. outerspace will crawl

keep fighting the good fight

this is an awesome comment.

Hello trolls, if you check out the website you'd find the following:
"Please note that we are organizing with and inviting people of color only."
Doesn't seem like a "earn some POC points" for white people kind of thing at all.

Right, and what is a "white person?"

Go to the convergence and ask.

I forget, are Irish and Italians still people of color? What about Eastern Europeans? What about Roma? How do I know if I qualify???

Nobody said racial categories aren't often fuzzy and subject to change. Those questions are good to ask, but you're going to have to trust your instincts.

In the short term, if you are a 'white' Irish, Italian, or Eastern European, you probably are not who the organizers had in mind when they organized the conference, and you might find that the conference won't have much for you.

I know less about the Romani people (I'm an American, and it isn't a very visible racial category here), but chances are that it's the same case. Are you any of these races? Or are you just bringing up people to prove a point? Is it actually important to you that you are 'allowed' to go to a conference like this, or are you just trying to prove a point?

Honestly, the amount of fuss that some folks make over the mere existence of a POC conference always confuses me. I don't see why so many non-POC folks get so fucking worked up over it. Race is complicated, but for most people, deciding whether or not the conference will speak to your experiences isn't.

If you wonder if you count as white, ask your parents.

Or join Anarchist People of Possible Color (APOPC0)
for us ethnically ambiguous anarchos!
first meeting never!

to clarify: thats APOPC.
We would derail the next crimethinc gathering, but we have better shit to do.

Is a chav a white person?
And what about the gypsies? And jews?

Chavs = it's a fashion so if it's a POC chav sure
gypsies = More complicated, depends on region and personal identity (most roma in the EU are viewed as non-white, most gypsies in the states pass for whites or latinos)
Jews = If you are from the Ethiopian line of Judaism you would be a POC. Sephardim and Mizrahim Jews may identify as white, and Ashkanazi Jews are definitely white.

Are you a chav? a gypsy? a jew? Do you feel that you belong at this conference and are being unjustly kept out, or does apoc just grind your gears?

No Jews are white. Jews are always the other white people. Look I've rode my bike through Bedford when it had a bike lane.

Oh rly? Did they look like this you shithead? I said Ashkanazi are white, which is probably what you think of when you see 'jews'.


sorry, there are no oppression olympics here my friend. DGAF.

"Ashkanazi Jews are definitely white."

Yep, so white that 6 million of them were murdered in the name of white supremacy.


The moment you start saying this is white or that is white, you are an agent of white supremacy. And the more that you define as white, the more power whiteness has. Destroy whiteness, don't add more people to it.

Not murdered in the name of white supremacy, murdered because they were constructed as an enemy to Aryan German supremacy.

It's a subtle difference, BUT:

- The term "white supremacy" refers to, in most cases, a social and diffuse structure of violently (but often, not always, subtly) enforced racial hierarchy.

- Aryan German supremacy is a specific doctrinal point that comes out of a National Socialist ideology.

In any case, Israel is all about white supremacy, not only with its relationship to Palestinians and Arabs more generally, but also in the relations between Ashkenazi in particular and Ethiopian Jews (with basically Ethiopian Jews being poorer, more marginalized, and blah blah blah in every respect, whereas Ashkenazi are the exact opposite).

Also, "The more that you define as white, the more power whiteness has." Umm, prove it?

I am white. Thanks for asking. Actually I'm part middle eastern or Yeminite or something. They're all abstractions. I don't know if we have time to address the complex dynamics of whether or not we all count as white people. But there are definitely different paradigms thrown up in regards to people who are Anarchists from different ethnic backgrounds. I mean, I can still tap a somewhat radical background of sympathetic Jewish leftism/anarchism/ whatever, but after 80 years it's a little difficult to play the persecuted minority card. I mean, we're just too prominent of an ethnic minority, at least within the United States to play that card anymore. And Zionism has pretty much trashed that sentiment. It's much healthier for me personally to identify myself as an ethnic minority who has come to prominence and institutional standing in the last half century. Actually, in regards to how much public display of sympathy is expressed, and up to a certain point I'm glad it is, but it still creates a terrible jealousy amongst all of us who have been persecuted to a small or large degree. Irish Americans come from a background that in the last century, the British monarchy tried to starve them to death. And when they came to United States, they were subject to the same persecution as Italians and Jews. No Irish, no Italians, no Jews, no dogs, etc. But since they're the most prevelant ethnic group in the United States, it's seen as ludicrous to play the persecuted minority card. But if you go back, hell even now, I'm sure there are a lot of social mores that are seen as an American thing, that could probably transcend modern history in their prevelance. There are Irish Americans by the way, sitting in bars on the South Side of Chicago getting themselves all worked up over Michael Connely and the police. It's a lot more common than people take for granted. South Boston the same.

I think the people of color, applies to people of color. Irish and Jewish Americans if we chose to, could go through the system to get the justice that we might feel we deserve when we've been wronged. I don't trust the police mostly out of ethics. But I have no real reason not to trust them. I'm not going to be put in an oven anytime soon. But I think if you're going to identify yourself, as a persecuted minority, you both have to be sane about it, and realistic. Likewise, you absolutely positively have to admit, that there is something called racism, and it might very depending on where you're living. Again, in the States we came up, in the former Soviet Bloc, it's starting to happen. In Bosnia, I wouldn't be allowed to vote. In Germany, I'd have to worry about Neo fascists kicking in my skull.

But in regards to this conversation, I wouldn't be so arrogant as to ask that my peoples suffering be taken as some sort of comfort for anyone who has been directly affected by institutionalized racism. Mind you, I've also been assaulted by a neo Nazi for being Jewish, in a room with two African Americans; who were just as freaked out as I was, but were obviously not worth targeting. But something like that is a freak occurence when you take into consideration, that Neo-Fascist drug gangs patrol the Arizona desert looking for people with dark skin trying to get "make it to freedome," blah.

I think it's important for us to work and live by theory that amonsgst us, and in our personal lives doesn't acknowledge race or ethnicity, but in the world, like that thing that is outside, with the cars and shit and the constant noise, and the bad smells from the trash that's been sitting on the corner for a week cause the garbage hasn't been picked up, it's definitely one of the most if not the most dangerous form of misdirected discontent (homophobia and sexism are just as dangerous). It's also very real in the sense that it's very difficult to reverse. We think that Anarchy will solve it. It's never solved it. You have to be able to create the paradigm, which is the right one, that there are bad people in the world ready to hurt you because of the color of your skin. I didn't know how real it was until recently, and mind you this is another Jew I'm talking about; who was a vehement racist, and saw himself as white.

That's another problem, is that those of us who don't have a good grip on our pasts, and who either are "white," or half "white," or whatever, get to cop out and join the ranks of the masters, who are usually anglo saxon douche bags. This concept exists in Harlem Rennaissance theory. Again, I'm sure George Zimmerman, never much cared about his ethnic background; not the Latino side, or indiginous side for that matter, I don't even know if to be Peruvian you're really Latino; or the Jewish side. Jews who have a good grasp on their history know that we stood in solidarity with other ethnic minorities during the civil rights era more so than any other ethnic group. Overwhelmingly so. You can still really see those sympathies being held onto, but they're usually misdirected in the way toward Israel, and conventional liberalism. Most Jews in the U.S. are liberals, and are to a large degree ideologically opposed to many of Israels policies, whether they're zionists or not, but the inablity to approach the matter as individuals, makes all of our OTHER sympathies, radical or not, just completely obscured; especially in the current climate and simplification, media blah blah blah.

I've had friends who definitely could have been identified as self-loathing latinos, or Jews, or African Americans, whatever. It's very important for us no matter who we are to have a solid grip on WHO WE ARE, and where we come from. That's ESSENTIAL to us and our ideology. We have to be able to communicate it in terms that are relevant, and genuine, and express our feelings as individuals who have a grip on history, our histories. Letting rigid dogma become our identity, just isn't healthy. We all, whether we acknowledge it, have a reason that we're here, whether it's rooted in the present or the deep past, and we have to find it, tap it, hold onto it, refine it with theory, and present it to the world. But being able to define yourself as by-racial or trans-racial or whatever, might be very important, and significant, who knows?

What if, despite my light skin, I identify as a POC?
R u just going to erase my identity?
Have not the transracial people suffered enough without ur banz on ppl who can't pass?
U have 2 check yrself.

Ur non-identity has been negated. Transracialism is so old hat, come back when u r Transhuman.

Eye'm more than Transhuman, cister. I'm trans*class*.
Lierre Keith oppressed me a good one in her transphobic comments. Not all tranz are the same! u no?
They tel mi that I'm not bourgeois. But who saves up all ther moneys from their factory job just 2 be able to buy tha lobster and the premier seating at the movie theatre so they can throw empty claws at tha proles?
Itz me cyster. Not u.
I no that I'm bourgeois, but this classest society won't aknolege just how classy I am.
I = bourgeois. I dare u 2 tel mee othrwize.

And now tha manarchists r giving me downvotings.
Az if I didunt expekt that. >:(

The -1 is an extension of my penis :)

"national" anarchist people of color? The now dead BANA is resurrected multi-racial now?

I know that was meant as a joke, but I've definitely found the philosophy of some of the more dogmatic people subscribing to the APOC label (certainly not all people to use it, since APOC is an identity and concept, and one that does have its value) to be very much a form of National Anarchism, just instead of being white nationalists they are either some other particular kind of nationalist or general, all non-European people nationalists. I don't necessarily dislike them as much as anarcho-Nazis, though I certainly don't like them either, but the common ingredients with other NAs should be noticed.

give me a fucking break. some people might be a tad bit reactionary about being the victims of institutional and systemic racial oppression for the last 500 years! can you really blame them?

seriously, shut the fuck up.

Thus the "don't dislike as much" thing. Doesn't change that the particular set of politics I'm thinking of is as reactionary as the white NA's and fairly closely resembles it.
And on shut the fuck up, try and make me.

Philly and Chicago APOC.

'Nuff said.

Actually not, because I have no idea what's up with them. Not that I'm askin you to gossip online about it.
Just that you need to get out of your activist ghetto bubble world!

Can I blame them? No.

Does that mean I support them in making the same mistakes as the state of Israel has done in response to the holocaust? Or that I support authoritarians calling themselves anti-authoritarians?


As if the state of Israel's actions were a product of "mistakes" and not the logical consequences of a nationalism of the oppressed....

there is no agency! ideologies cannot be resisted!

seriously, support reactionaryism already!

yeah, nationalism and anarchism are only diametrically opposite concepts if you're white. However, if you have suffered oppression, as of course no white person ever has or will, then nationalism and anarchy are perfectly consistent. duh

not true, at all

you got trolled, brah

so many trolls in this damn forest we miss each other entirely


Perlman's work is still as relevant as the day he wrote it.

the fact that this is still relevant is NOT something to celebrate...

except the incest and kiddie sex stuff.

i'd kill him if he came near my kid, i don't give a fuck how good his other ideas are.

actually the quality of your reaction to those elements of his writing proves just the opposite: how incredibly relevant it still is.

More info? This is news to me.

It's in Letters of Insurgents, and it's not what the uptight commentator is making it out to be

>downvoting the fucking *man pearl*
>what the FUCK

Wow, I'm really surprised at how many people are freaking out over this. I'm white and I think it's great that anarchist people of color are organizing safe spaces for themselves. I mean I wish the situation was that they didn't have to, but we do live in a white supremacist society.

I get rejecting identity politics, but white supremacy is about a system of domination, not identity.

A racial identity, or ethnic identity, or fuck a geo-political reality is much more real, whether being right or not, than most of the identities that we come across in the Anarchist community, if only because we don't kill each other over identity. Once again, you can deal with it when it's said and done, but in the mean time, I mean, I'd rather not identify myself as just being Jewish, but I'm a geo-political reality and in this world I understand that it is of significance to take pride in that, and stand up for my ideals even when they stand in the face, especially because they stand in face of others that also identify themselves as such. I can see NOTHING wrong with this. And it's kind of selfish for people to have a problem with it. If you don't like it, don't fucking go. If you do like it, go. But if you are selfish enough to put others down for wanting to explore their identities, you might be just a fucking hippie.

In Israel(/Palestine) you'll go to a show (obviously not in occupied territory) and hear Jewish folk songs, and Jewish religious songs; same as in the states when you hear Irish Americans playing bluegrass, and even alot of music whether its conscious or not has sort of an Irish lullaby quality to it. It's almost unavoidable. It's sort of an affirmation that not EVERYTHING we come from in the past was bullshit. It makes our existences, and our current characters, our beings, full, complete, REAL!!!

I haven't heard the name Trayvon Martin in a half hour but even there, because that wasn't white on black violence, that was separated by a degree OR TWO, it was servant over slave, not master over slave (PLEASE DON'T CALL ME OUT FOR THE LANGUAGE I'M USING I HAVEN'T BEEN TO SLEEP YET). Zimmerman was hispanic. But racial status definitely played a part while having that part acknowledged by the states reaction. And maybe Zimmerman, who was also half white, never identified himself as being latino, maybe he didn't ever look in the fucking mirror. You can rationally do away with it, when you can do away with all the rest of the sexism, classism, gendarism, homophobia, etc. etc. that exists in this world.


Oh thank you good white persyn, two gold ally stars 4u

I got two dickweed stars 4u bro. These stars are only awarded to people who manage to be sardonic pricks %100 of the time. Don't you feel special?

damn those sound hard to get one of those

Oh there's a few people on this site who could qualify

oh i dont know about that i only ever see this one person posting on this site, named anon, they are very prolific and get in fights with themself all of the time but i dont think they're 100% always sardonic...

They sound like a very self-loathing person this anon. Sad to think that person is both of us.

on the contrary, comrade, it is just a bizarre expression of self-love :)


man, you are totally the RIGHT kind of white person! congrats! feel good about yourself! try to shed a tiny bit of the crushing burden of guilt that darkens your dreams!

you know what people in this society need more of? guilt.

it's the only thing
that there's just too little of

Wait, how are you having an APOC convergence that's people of color only and not defining what a person of color is? That's so FUCKED UP!

And then when you do turn someone away, who are you to define what a "person of color" is with your college ass? Buncha banu banu upper class tards.

It doesn't matter, no one's going anyway.

OK first off there is no such thing as white supremacy or privilege, get off the Marxist sauce already, the very notion of white is unsubstantial to begin with combined with the fact that power and domination is cyclical and historically dynamic and not primarily located to any particular human grouping, stick to concrete facts of domination and get over the identity/oppression bullshit, identity as such is already a self-inflicted wound as it already lends itself to winners and losers and self-alianation to begin with.

As for whining about the past 500 hundred years, spare me please! As Freddy would say..WHO THE FUCK HASN'T SUFFERED when it comes to the historical enclosure of leviathan. Nationalism is nationalism I don't care if the mouth pieces are colonizer or colonized, as Novatore would say, the stream of slavery and tyranny is not an anarchist stream, the colonizer and colonized have inherently flawed views to begin with from an authentically anarchist perspective, between the two you don't take sides, you use the redemptive perspectives from both camps and push them in anarchic directions if you can, but for the most part they are both alienated power mongers with nothing to offer any serious anarchist...and there's no way to build power that is not alienating.

"get over the identity/oppression bullshit, identity as such is already a self-inflicted wound as it already lends itself to winners and losers and self-alianation to begin with."

Logically, you just made an argument for capitalism. I guess, since the working class isn't oppressed, and even such an identity is a self-inflicted wound, we ought default.

Yay Capitalism!! Yay Fascism!!

And what kind of cultural arrogance is this? Neo-nazi's target people of color, (and L.G.B.T. folk), they don't even target us Jews so much anymore because in this day and age when we can get justice within the system. It's so obnoxious for you to tell people that the alienation they feel because of systematic persecution isn't real. Even if you're not white, it's still bullshit. It's not better or worse, but it's different, and it's real, and if you've never dealt with it, you can relate with it to an extent, you can empathize completely, but w.t.f. are you to say it's bullshit. That is complete arrogance to an extent that is BREATHTAKING. Do you understand how deep rooted fear of racial prejudice is. Watch black men, especially with children talk about the Trayvon Martin case. When they speak, they're not just in rage, they're in fear, they're fucking scared. They're scared. They don't care about class war, they just want to know their children aren't going to be shot by some vigilante nut case while the state condones it because it was "just another black kid." This is arrogance, and dismissing reality, and thinking that just because amongst us we can blur the lines, that we can just shut our eyes and stick our fingers in our ears and act like racism isn't a real problem. That's bullshit.

Neo nazies are not even a shadow of their forefathers in this day and age, most GBLTs are more harmed by 3rd world forms of christianity and islam then they are from any small existent neo nazi movement. I'm not denying that systematic factors are real, only that you should not sensationalize things with sweeping terms via identity, I think you have to look at more concrete things like how the suburban habitat can create this kind of incident, it could have conceivably been a black suburban homeowner that did this after all. Also fear and rage however understandable in a given circumstance don't always make for the best analysis.

so, basickwy you are saying, "Yay! Fascism! Yay! Capitalism!" thx.

^^ Huge Asshole ^^

Yes this is why in Canada we have an influx of Roma refugees from Hungary and Czech Republic where they hide in their houses and send their white neighbours to buy their groceries for them out of fear of being attacked in public by thugs in boots and camo fatigues who work with the police. It's because "Neo-nazis are not even a shadow of their forefathers", actually in Europe they are becoming more legitimized everyday, many people see them as a civic group. In fact I've heard it said by several Roma people I know that their relatives who lived through the second world war say that the general public is more xenophobic and pro-fascist then they were in the early 1930s.

I don't even disagree with your point about identity, but your dismissive way of making it sounds mean-spirited and dickish, like you were real excited to tell someone to 'get over' what has obviously been hard for them. "I'm not denying that systematic factors are real" no you are just saying "there is no such thing as white supremacy or privilege" and people should "get over the identity/oppression bullshit." You tell those POC fascists, they'll know not to come to this site for encouragement or any kind of empathy.

Dude INDENTIFIES as "sir," he's smarter than the rest.

Sirloin IS superior meat!

I'm not so much being dismissive of the groups in question as much as I am the leftist politicos who try to project them into their ideological encampment. The various leftists who set up their workshops and conferences in which most people of effected groups will never hear nor care about.

And again the n-nazies are not bringing back the 30s, I'm well aware of what the Roma have to put up with, but again I am not going to create epistemologically privileged groups of suffering, in worlds and epochs of human segregation certain groups get it more then others, but then again history is filled with role reversals(jews on palastinians) which is why the belief systems as a whole have to be attacked in an integrated critical manner.

And as far as POC fascists for me these would be the likes of the black panthers and the colonized sect of the ideological campers, may they have as little encouragement and sympathy as can be given if any.

Who cares? The neo nazis aren't bringing back the 30s? Well that's good, but many of them are bringing back hatred of outsiders regardless, I wonder why anyone would hesitate to make ambiguous who it is they want to brutalize and abuse? But whatever, as long as the likes of the black panthers don't get their views out we're all good, right? Oh yeah, one last note, Sir Einzige, shoot yourself before I do it for you, you fake commie wanna-be nothing. No one want's to give you encouragement or sympathy for your fake revolution so cut your throat as neatly as you can you empty shit, have right at it...

The irrelevant nazis do not have a monopoly on hatred of outsiders, they happen to represent a virulent form of sovereign based ideology but they are part of a gradient, there are plenty of examples of hatred of outsiders in the 3rd world and throughout history in general, every sovereign ideology and state has their protectors. As for the black maoists(panthers) I'll enjoy knowing they've been de-clawed of any relevance just like their euro and asian counterparts. Also I'm an anarchist not a communist, you being the latter have assigned yourself to your own irrelevance, as such I won't wish you the same ill will.

>because in this day and age when we can get justice within the system.
>we can get justice within the system.
>justice within the system.

>a real thing and not the arbitrary conceptual product of power relations

systems need law to kill, dada

Actually you're on the Marxist sauce. And my white ass never had to deal with being killed for the color of my skin. Like I've never had to deal with being persecuted for my sexuality. Yes, it's not all about color. The Irish, the Jews, the Poles, etc. etc. have all been persecuted for their "nationality," and yes, nationality is bullshit. It's not nationalism, it's exploring your identities. Zionism, and I'm Jewish, but being Jewish is a nationality, not nationalism, there's a HUGE difference. One is a geo-political reality/paradigm created by the powers that be, the other is a self affirmation of it to rise up and create some sort of nation state around it; i.e. xenophobia. The two are completely different, even if abstractly connected.

Why even begin with this abstract game of comparing and contrasting, anarchists analyze domination not oppression and the reified collective Is that come with it, anything beyond bare life persecution and your playing an abstract crying game as far as I'm concerned. Just stick to the systems of domination and the habits and beliefs that maintain it. Also it says a lot that you want to separate nationality and nationalism seeing as how both owe their existence to flawed western concepts going back 2000 years, the "powers that be" did not create nationalism, if anything it came from the base as an addendum to to christian collectivity.

'Why even begin with this abstract game of comparing and contrasting'

How about cause you began it by decreeing that white privilege doesn't exist, something I guess we all just have to accept because you say it, even though many of us who have lived through our own experiences know that's not true. I have benefited so many times in my life from being lighter than my relatives and it is absolutely a systemic thing (do you ever go through an airport or cross a border with people who don't look like you?) so whatever theoretical wanking you want to do to say that that's all relative and people who have to deal with that should 'get over it', I know better regardless. You are the one playing an abstract trying game by telling people they must "Just stick to the systems of domination and the habits and beliefs that maintain it." "Yeah fuck your own personal experiences, just stick to the systems of domination and the habits and beliefs that maintain it. I am not an authoritarian at all I just want to erase your experiences from your own analysis of hierarchy." Btw why do you even care you stupid prick? Nobody is impressed by your theorizing, how about leaving people to have their own opinions about what oppresses them? No that would be way too anarchistic...

The problem is that the idea of oppression in regards to abstract collectivized identity is not really personal, it is based on the idea that there is a unifying objective feeling of pain and suffering which can be put under a general redemptive banner. Sticking to systems of domination means going after what is specifically harming you, anti-opression discourse is underlined by prefigured clashing hegemonies, the stuff that Marxism is made for, its no accident that privilege and supremacy discourse is born in an ideology obsessed with power, something anarchists should have no interest in. Not every POC is oppressed or wants to be lumped in with that projection, some might identify with the prevailing colonial culture as much as some born into said culture want to destroy it, if your serious about people taking on personal forms of domination then you will not wind up with any kind of oppression discourse.

And in regards to the non existence of white privilege and supremacy I decree it because it's true, again try to historically enclose where the notion of white came from, you can't, its part of a tangled web of civilization and its cyclical patterns of domination, if by white you mean what began with the Teutons, then that is a continuum of what came out of Greece and Rome and what came before it. I understand that most people in the context of interpolated identities are going to perpetuate a blame game, but as theoretically sound anarchists we should know a little better, this might not lead to a popular opinion, but anarchism has always been about being intellectually consistent and not throwing its lot in with the oppressor or oppressed who both perpetuate each others existence.

Wow. Just wow.

"The problem is that the idea of oppression in regards to abstract collectivized identity is not really personal, it is based on the idea that there is a unifying objective feeling of pain and suffering which can be put under a general redemptive banner."

Guess what bud, sometimes there is a very real collectivized identity for which people suffer, you do nothing to undermine that.

"its no accident that privilege and supremacy discourse is born in an ideology obsessed with power, something anarchists should have no interest in."

Privilege and supremacy discourse? By which you mean what? Discourse about privilege and supremacy (two things that I suppose you assume are fictions but which many of us know are very real)? By extension you could classify everything written by POC about their systemic oppression to be 'privilege and supremacy discourse', a term which btw is used by no one but you.

"Not every POC is oppressed or wants to be lumped in with that projection, some might identify with the prevailing colonial culture as much as some born into said culture want to destroy it, if your serious about people taking on personal forms of domination then you will not wind up with any kind of oppression discourse."

No, I will wind up with you telling me what kind of discourse is acceptable, regardless of what any POC identifies with.

"Sticking to systems of domination means going after what is specifically harming you"

Again, thanks for being here to tell people what is specifically harming them.

"And in regards to the non existence of white privilege and supremacy I decree it because it's true, again try to historically enclose where the notion of white came from, you can't, its part of a tangled web of civilization and its cyclical patterns of domination"

Well if you can't 'enclose' a type of privilege because it's part of a 'tangled web of civilization', then it must not exist. Do you actually think this vacuous shit??? All you have to say is 'white' has no meaning thus systemic oppression of people who are non-white does not exist, and you would be closer to your actual (totally bullshit) meaning.

"I understand that most people in the context of interpolated identities are going to perpetuate a blame game, but as theoretically sound anarchists we should know a little better..."

Well apparently you know fuck all. As possibly the dumbest shit I have debated online ever, tell me exactly why anarchists should know theoretically better than basing an analysis of hierarchy on their own lives and should instead follow your advice to "not engage in privilege/supremacy discourse (those things don't exist after all), not challenge white privilege/supremacy (because of course it doesn't exist), and stick to challenging systems of domination which you say are specifically harming them?"

"Guess what bud, sometimes there is a very real collectivized identity for which people suffer, you do nothing to undermine that. "

Some people bud, problem is when those annoying uncle toms, female conservative and log cabin republicans come along your assumptions are shot down by reality and logic respectively

"By extension you could classify everything written by POC about their systemic oppression to be 'privilege and supremacy discourse', a term which btw is used by no one but you. "

It doesn't have to be, though unfortunately post-68 Marxist based mouth pieces have dominated the discussion and ill defined the terms, I'm not denying that systematic forms of domination are going on so much as I am saying that the constructed people who happen to be doing it should not be the focal point as much as the systems themselves which are by no means structured in a top down controlled doer-deed fashion, colonizer and colonized are inherited habits and its best to take it on in an integrated matter. Also there are forms of domination beyond the systematic that deserve equal analysis.

"No, I will wind up with you telling me what kind of discourse is acceptable, regardless of what any POC identifies with. "

I'm telling you what doesn't work not what you should do

"All you have to say is 'white' has no meaning thus systemic oppression of people who are non-white does not exist, and you would be closer to your actual (totally bullshit) meaning. "

Systematic 'oppression' can be done by anybody, that's what you don't get, there might be a weighted bias that needs some specific attention but not to the point where you privilege the damn thing to the point where when a POC is complicit you cop out and tell me that he/she is 'continuing' white supremacy/privilege. No one doubts that the alienating beat goes on but as Perman said every group to some degree has given and received.

"And my white ass never had to deal with being killed for the color of my skin"

You're right, that's an experience most people of color have had.

White boy's attempt to express empathy with the many POC who have had relatives die due to systemic racism: dismissed.

Non-witty or humorous literalist joke minimizing the issue which white boy tried to empathize with: posted.

oh fuck off, you know what they meant.

"As soon as you call yourself white then we are doomed, for if you call yourself white then I am forced to call myself black."

Every fucking piece of shit hating on the fact that this is happening makes me sick and ashamed as fuck to call myself an anarchist. Your pseudo-revolutionary politics ain't shit when you're obviously more than happy to be complicit in whiteness.

Yeah, it sucks but we're all addicted to judging people online as that's the underlying purpose of this site and since most white @s get surprisingly uncomfortable about being white the bitchiness is just sort of a byproduct of those two shitty things...

That and people who are still butt hurt about what happened in Philly. I try not to take it personally but there are a few white boys on this board that should be slapping themselves right now. It's way easy to be hurtful on this site.

Woooo! Yeahhh! Evict some people curious about anarchism.
That'll definitely stop the gentrification.

why the fuck is this a "national" conference? are you going to check for proper documentation? do you have to be an american citizen to comes to this?

the APOC nation, sister. come on in, the waters fine. And by fine i mean luke warm in solidarity with some shit somewhere.

i live in a third world country and we have an infoshop so alot of travellers always stays at our infoshop.the frens that we have always identified themselves as an anti authoritarian,but they are always white ppl!we do have frens from neighbouring country coming over with same ideology but travellers from the europe,the states are always white ppl!!we have talk about this.why do u guys think this happen?

This site scared the POCs away.

you're assumptions negate my experience as an anarchist person of color who couldn't CARE FUCKING LESS about this conference.

Your sensible reply negates my jk.

Trolled u. Really i love this idea. Suddenly my skin has accumulated value.

1. Identify as POC
2. Meet up wif others.
3. ????
4. Tax refund!

maybe you are an upper class prick whose class privilege means you don't have to deal with the shit many POC go through.

how about you come to the conference so I can rob you, rich fuck?

am not! you're the one who's assumptions!

because 1) the vast majority of people in the US and Europe are white; even the US, which is probably less white than any European country, is 70% white; so even if radicals are representative of their countries as a whole, the vast majority will be white; 2) anarchists tend to be from the middle and upper-middle class, which is even whiter - probably 80-90% of these classes are white in the US; 3) in the US POC tend to follow the historic radical traditions of their communities, which are mainly variations of liberalism, nationalism or leninism; anarchism never had a significant base in, for example, black or asian communities in the US; 4) POC tend to dislike to work in groups that are majority white, for a variety of reasons, including explicit racism as well as more subtle forms.

there you have it.

Depends where you are... In South Est Asia there's a fair deal of anarchists who are native to the place.

But infoshops where people pretend to be anarchists by reading book? No, sorry, that's a typical subculture among some unassuming white, privileged people. Here's why.

Just as white lumpen proles out there usually couldn't care less about Malatesta or Gattari/Deleuze. It's a class thing, not "race".

It's "Guattari" you knowitall. Read a damned book.

the question was "but travellers from the europe,the states are always white ppl!!we have talk about this.why do u guys think this happen?"

I'm fucking stoked APOC's coming to New Orleans, and I know a lot of other anarchists here are feeling the same way.

You need to decolonize your mind white boys and for gods sake stop gentrifying poc neighborhoods. this conference can't happen soon enough.

and OMG stop buying GAP clothes and Nikes! don't you know you are as bad as the CEOs of those companies when you buy their products!?!

same with housing! stop gentrifying, renters! don't you know you have all the power to stop gentrification, not banks or developers or the government, because we live in a DEMOCRACY where CONSUMER CHOICES and BOYCOTTS work every time!

decolonize your mind? lol. slave morality is the ultimate colonization. fucking DUH.
also, gentrification is a false problem. Modern Capitalism requires gentrification. Stop being a liberal.

apoc is just too dualistic and alienating!

yeah, it's not like POC have their own particular set of material and social conditions to deal with!

they should NEVER be able to meet together and pretend to talk about how they face similar obstacles!


NEVER. For the anarchy gods decree it is so.

Can not-so-colored anarchists come?

Since I've got pretty much beige/pinky skin, and brownish during summertime, so I suppose I'm a person of color too... just light color.

I can understand for all the people out there who've got a colorless skin... but wait, do they even exist?

I have a feeling all these morons pretending like race and race-based oppression, and therefore the need for those under those conditions to organize together, are probably some fucking BANA nazis trolling the fuck out of this article.

worker: why allow fake-ass pretend "colorblind" racism to be posted over and over on here? not only is "colorblindness" racist, it is also seriously fucking liberal. you hate liberals, right?

BANA explicitly modeled itself on APOC...



smack white boys.

Cause, you know, I'm a middle class person of color and my only role models are DEAD PREZ. lol...

i would be interested to hear how this action was viewed by the present apoc milieu.

qv apoc v. crimethinc 2008

Most Identity politics guilt mongers = reactionaries.
Most Anti-identity politics hate-spewers on this article = reactionaries.

Can't we have a critique of identity politics without having a bunch of bro anarchists turn into frat boy reactionaries???
Oh yeah, I forgot, everyone is fucking 22 years old.

You have your answer.

Best comment on here so far.

um, some of us are just trolls. we can't HAVE anything on @news, or didn't you get the memo.

not even nice things?


broletariats and manarchists whine about privilege politics bc they can cite some statist that uses similar language. BFD. Bashing "identity politics" is the white anarchist version of colorblindness, which is something statists proliferate. Guilting someone with privilege analysis to paralysis out of bitterness is completely counterproductive. What's worse IMO is when someone (usually white anarchist) tries to qualify experiences of Original Peoples with invalidating, marginalizing, and reducing our struggles to what they feel our struggle truly is.

While I do have my reservations about privilege analysis, I absolutely believe class reductionism needs to be dead and buried. It denies the experiences of many people who may feel more strongly about being queer, being of a certain culture or race, or being of a certain gender (or without one). It is a relic from a time when many people were trying to reduce oppression to a political root that should be addressed above all else, be it white supremacy, patriarchy, capitalism, industrialism and who knows what else. Intersectionality at least aims to respect the social position of each person and community and the ways in which we subjectively experience this reality. It exists in what I would call a realm in which many truths exist all at once, and we negotiate them together to help us gain a clearer sense of our own situation and how to change it. "A world of many truths coming together" is a basic tenet of indigenous cosmology, as well. We each live our own personal truth and we weave them together to get a better bearing on reality. This whole idea of arguing to our wits end to have our individual truth be The One Truth that dominates all others is a very european/colonizing mentality. Class reductionism is a way of saying "my theory trumps all others" and needs to evolve, to be extremely blunt. It’s too egotistical. The most pointed and critical voices this world has yet to hear from don't have access to computers, let alone the internet, so there's no reason to delude ourselves into thinking we have everything figured out.

It’s so weird bc that poor excuse for political commentary someone posted [http://www.anarchistnews.org/?q=node%2F10483] just assumes that APOC is an org (as if all anarchists are an org) and that because statists also use similar language of oppression, that therefore anarchist Original Peoples must be inherently statist. For some reason people feel threatened by folks establishing solidarity as POC (let alone APOC), WOC, and creating what are very akin to peer support groups. Obviously, they exist far beyond that purpose. Critics instead sensationalize this politicking to be separatism, a form of white supremacy (or statism – or pro-capitalism). These critics could just be trolls. There’s such a lack of sincerity with addressing these issues so it’s hard to begin bridging this gap. Just look at the comments on this thread alone. It’s like the anarchist version of YouTube comments.

Not that there aren't people with actual separatist politics. But it's no surprise that if there are (I don't see many these days) they could logically find solidarity with white separatist groups. Nazis and KKK used to go to Nation of Islam rallies and speeches. NOI was for it because they all wanted to be separate.

i only barely got introduced to anarchist circles in the past few years and i actually was surprised (naive, i know) to see white anarchists (not all) doing the same thing many other white organizers (not all) i've worked with have done. They look down on POC and APOC efforts as quaint and struggling to reach for the level that white anarchists are about. And on top of that, I've noticed that some of the few anarchists I've met and talked to believe that it is an oxymoron to include race alongside the label "anarchist" and that it is taking a step backwards.

For example, I've been told (by a WOC, in addition to white folks) that it's not right to say "white anarchist" or "POC anarchist" and that we are all just anarchists because a central tenet of anarchist is to drop all these labels that are an inherent part of "jacking us into the system" (ala The Matrix). So getting to that nirvana level that enough anarchists see themselves as being at means being like them. Oddly enough it smacks of "color blindness" to mask racism by silencing dissent. And it just so happens to put the beliefs of a largely white (sub-)culture as the anarchist police. Thankfully their policing doesn't exist much outside of trolling and passive aggression.

Yeah pretty much...

"There’s such a lack of sincerity with addressing these issues so it’s hard to begin bridging this gap... It’s like the anarchist version of YouTube comments."

Welcome to @news, where everyone's a troll or getting trolled: good for entertainment/venting not so much for sensitive issues that require tact and thoughtfulness. Could you define 'Original People'? I mean I think I know what you mean by that but not really.

i'm gonna try really really hard not to sound like a dick, but it's nearly impossible given the incredible bad faith and deliberate stubbornness - often to the point of willfull ignorance - of most of the posters.

"original people" clearly means anyone who isn't european. this of course leaves the field wide open for gross misunderstanding of both intention and analysis. one good point about referring to "original people" is that it acknowledges that attempts at being colorblind or post-racial are absurd. there is a continuation of the dispossession of colonized/dominated land and people (possibly understood as discrete ethnic communities) that doesn't go away simply by saying "we're all anarchists, can't we just be part of the same struggle already?"

one bad point is that using the term implies that there is no authentic culture/ethnicity among people currently understood as white, that there is only a culture of domination and dispossession. while there is a certain truth to this, it never seems to accept the gradual enlistment and absorption of previously non-white ethnicities into american whiteness (irish, italians, slavs, jews), so it is only a partial truth, which rightly rankles many who don't see themselves as completely absorbed, especially among those who are third or fourth generation offspring of the dispossessors. that's one of the reasons the race traitor line has never found any following beyond the miniscule clusters of grad students who desperately cling to the declarations of their professors.

people of color get to define themselves, period. all you non-poc anarchists need to stop whining about how they choose to organize themselves. when they veer off the usual anarchist path by accepting and championing the discourse of genetically-determined nationalism, call them out for using the language of anti-oppression to shut down all possibility of criticism. find the flaws in their analysis rather than what you imagine to be the flaws in their self-organization. use comradely criticisms to point out what you believe to be their shortcomings, because they are not your enemies.

what do you mean "most posters"? YOU're the only one i see posting on here, MR ANON! that's right! I've got you pegged, buddy! i saw you on here last night at 4 am, posting ads for louis vuitton bags! dont think i didnt!

Well thanks for clarifying. Not a big fan of the term, but it's good to have it spelled out. And yeah, it seems like every time APOC comes up people lose their shit.

How anyone can rationalize telling people what conferences they should attend and who should be there is beyond me, especially given they are people that none of these commentors have even met. More than anything I think it highlights how unresolved the identity of many white @s is when this kind of shit makes them uncomfortable. People tend to think they have all that race stuff resolved (I often do) and then something shakes the boat and you realize that you don't. That's when reasonable people take a walk and think about it, and when trolls get on @news to say mean spirited shit.

I think it's also important for people to keep their minds open as to what "nation" constitutes. For example, there is the term First Nations that is used to refer to indigenous peoples of the US. I've heard various peoples refer to animals as nations, for example the squirrel nation, the deer nation. It's important not to look at this as quaint, but a window to another way of understanding the world. Indigenous peoples referring to themselves as nations in some way is NOT the same as a full blown hegemonic nation-state.

I think we really could stand to be less reactionary about incidences of cultural nationalism too. Often times groups that are proponents of cultural nationalism (which isn't necessarily separatist) from what I've seen just have people who are building a pride in their culture and organize for justice and change for their people and community. Not that there haven't been uglier manifestations of this. From what I find the reality of thing is usually fairly simple and people who are proponents of nationalism who ideally want their structure to scale across entire regions are nowhere near that and probably never will be.

is it not the case that everyone attempting to talk about a nation, when they are not talking about a "full blown hegemonic nation-state," are talking about a desire to create a nation-state?

It is not the case. That's what i was trying to get at. There are other ways of looking at the world and not everyone means the same thing when we use the exact same key terms.

Sometimes people use the same word to communicate very different things. And sometimes people use different words to communicate the same thing. It's the meaning under the surface that counts.

Original People to me is a way of flipping the label "people of color" to be centered around the people being talked about. People of color centers white people, as is the norm in US society. It's what I feel best gets the idea across without somehow being a subtle reference to a white or European standard. The world's first peoples were indigenous (including european, we should remember), and may have been geographically separated and culturally distinct, but were never collectively oppressed and systemically set at odds with each other (creating a need for a collective identity) until Europeans distinguished themselves as "white" ("different" and supreme) and went to work throughout the world, completely changing our cosmologies.

somebody give me a TL;DR on this?

TL;DR: I use "broletariat" and "manarchist" as serious disses and not ironically.

Its not a matter of citing 'some' statists, this kind of discourse was invented by them, if you do your homework this stuff all goes back to people like Gramsci and generally marxist strains that are obsessed with hegemonic unity, the type of thing that colonial ideology was built on in the first place.

I don't reject the identity posturing because of class reductionism, I would argue that Marx's orientation around class which many 1st wave russian anarchists ended up swallowing was one of the earlier forms of identity politics that has perpetuated into this mess. What we should first realize is that various forms of power and domination stem from belief systems as opposed to an abstract alien outsider. Also I'm all for heterogeneous organizing, but how about doing it on singular/specific affinity first and foremost as opposed to generalized identities.

It has to also be stressed that a lot of this language was developed during the time that anarchism was in a coma from 1940-68 onwards and it was statist with statist aims, it doesn't matter if you slap the anarchist prefix on it, language and its prefigured meanings don't work like that, I think anarchists should do everything they can to correct orientations that were developed in that particular radical vacuum when the marxists had near free reign on these questions where a lively anarchist current(including the POC aspects-like me)would call bullshit. The fact is 3rd world ideology developed at a time when m-leninism was near the only game in town as an alternative.

Also I don't care to bring the race aspect to my specific conceptions of anarchy and I consider to be an oxymoron POC and all. To some degree the settled culture will be a sort of default, but I would rather that particular habitual trait simply rot away over a period of time and not add new fixed cultures to the table.

The history of the term is irrelevant to its usage today because youth pick it up based on it resonating with them. It gets people to remember that it's not just a white/black dynamic and there are more voices to be heard. And it unifies us in a system that constantly tries to subjugate us while putting us at odds with each other.

Good luck to anyone trying to set the rules on what anarchism is and how someone gets to frame themselves. The language will probably keep changing, as in the last 1-2 years I've noticed more conversations happening in which people are not feeling POC as much and desiring to further think outside the box.

broletariats and manarchists? what planet do you live on?

"I absolutely believe class reductionism needs to be dead and buried. It denies the experiences of many people who may feel more strongly about being queer, being of a certain culture or race, or being of a certain gender..."

um, so politics, economics, society as a whole, etc are totally subjective and should only be considered in terms of how people feel about them (have been made to feel about them)? cool.

rehash. stop going backwards it didn't work the first time.

I'm black, but is it cool if i bring my white sex slave? she fits in a dufflebag.

Will it be like this? http://christwire.org/2012/04/does-your-child-sissy-bounce-the-dangerous...

Because if so, i'm not going to let my son go.

Oh it won't be like that, it will be that.

awwwww shit. This party gonna be fuckin cray.

Let's face the ugly truth, that identity politics is an instinctual defensive panic to preserve the future of whatever that particular clan or group values. For instance, capitalist society values material wealth and reveals its identity unconsciously with visual displays of opulence and power. Debord plagiarised 'spectacular' from national geographic and fused it with Marx/Hegel. Other animals inflate themselves and display magnificent feathers while dancing to win the power to reproduce themselves. Vanity, regardless of race or class, is the first obstacle facing the budding anarchist, who must first throw off the yoke of unconscious identities, whatever they may be. The whole Western paradigm is firstly anthropocentric liberalism and resembles in behavior the cuckoo bird in the wild and secondly as materialistic, like the cuckoo clock, ornate and obsessed with the monetary value of time
APOC on the other hand resemble a magnificently plumed spontaneous eruption, only they can wear brilliantly colored clothes because aesthetically their skin contraste beautifully with colors, whereas white skin looks like an abscence of completion, a blank piece of canvas waiting for perfection; but I digress.
Identity is not an aesthetic flaunting of fashion, it is the unconscious coming together of those that share the same materialistic values.

"Let's face the ugly truth, that identity politics is an instinctual defensive panic to preserve the future of whatever that particular clan or group values."

So what? It's true that identity politics is an individual and collective response to the situations society creates but again, so what? I can think of far uglier truths, not limited to but including the subtle racism of many posters on this site. You're saying that these people can't meet exclusively because they are "inflating themselves, showing off, and furthering 'the western paradigm'", well wtf are you doing writing this comment if not inflating yourself, showing off and furthering 'the western paradigm' by telling people that they are just like cuckoo birds for wanting to meet each other in a specific setting? I get the masturbatory desire to go on anarchy rants, but seriously, do you have a problem with these people meeting or don't you? Because that is what is happening, nobody is going to erase identity politics from existence, that isn't the issue.

The issue some folks meeting in New Orleans. The bs discourse that unfortunately it has turned into is every white @ and their mother telling poc how they should identify and who they should not be meeting with. How about getting over the fact that identity exists and being happy that people are meeting and not sitting isolated on computers spewing bitchiness at each other?

Err you misunderstood my rant, I actually had APOC as the wild bird doing its thing spontaneously and NOT orchestrating power,,,so umm, who's masturbating to power now eh?
Learn to read!

I'm happy you disagree with me beause your ID = too much acid and startrek episodes Captain.
I feel sorry for the aliens

It does look rather melancholy.

Help, I'm an anarcho-troll. I never leave the confines of my apartment, and I love shitting on people. Nothing meets my approval. I haven't been laid since, well, since never.

And here you are assuming that regularly getting some would make someone troll less. You must not be getting enough.

Never is certainly not enough.

I tend to troll more the more sex I get.

The highest level of the game is trolling while having sex. This way you can literally cum when you post the trolliest comment of the night. And if someone tells you that you are just masturbating, the jks on them.

150 priceless comments. And I've read all of them. I lose.

I hope emile goes to this and schools APOC on his favorite Dead White Physicists. That would be soooo awesome!!!!

I mean shit, I'm probably gonna come but yall gotta make that shit in the nola summer heat?


Nobody likes to left out especially white kids that haven't been left out of anything. The american anarchist space is a very white one. there is a few tokens here and there but it's a very pale scene. even when anarchist have houses in neighborhoods of poc, the houses still seem to be a lot of white people. meetings (and @news comments) are often dominated by white males. not some evil plot, they are just used to talking.

I don't like being left out either. and I have heard the rumors about individuals associated with apoc too. but how are we going to get people of color involved (or involve ourselves with them) if we deny white privilege and reinforce it at the same time. I think that apoc is necessary for people of color to feel safe in a radical space.

that's why I'm not going,

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