TOTW: Heros, celebrities, and leaders; do we really NEED to kill them?
[ANews ed. - Thanks to anonymous for this guest Topic of the Week submission]
 
Topic of the Week -  TOTW: Heroes, celebrities, and leaders; do we really NEED to kill them?
 
 Is there a properly anarchist way to be or follow a hierarchical authority?
 
As anarchists we generally say we have little need for living heroes, and then write exhaustive texts defending any person of anarcho-status from any sort of criticism, we say we have no want for leaders then treat every non-anarchist like a child in school, we say we believe in no gods and no masters and then make gods and masters out of our favorite popular personas.
 
Do we really not want to lead or be led, or is what we are looking for is an authority that acts more kindly and less authoritatively?
 
Do you believe there an anarchist way to be a leader or a follower?
 
Must we kill the rancher so the herd can thrive, or would more control over who is in charge be anarchist enough for us?
 

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Comments

anon (not verified) Mon, 04/14/2025 - 08:32

provocative topic write up. who is this "we"?

what's the difference between arguing over the value of someone or someone's input, and writing "exhaustive texts defending any person of anarcho-status from any sort of criticism"? 

what anarchists have made what celebrities into either god or master?

is the writer including themself in this "we"? 

clarifying comments requiested!

anon (not verified) Mon, 04/14/2025 - 08:42

Inb4 the cult of personality fans. Aragon was opposed to celebrity culture, so DON'T SAY he was into fame, NOR was he a celebrity.

anon (not verified) Tue, 04/15/2025 - 08:51

In reply to by anon (not verified)

sure, a! is one example that people could talk about. so are david graeber, wolfi, noam chomsky, bob black (an anti-example), etc.

the issue is not instances, but what they're examples OF. see the opening questions asking for clarification. 

also, what is the relationship (besides parasocial) between celebrities and their fans? (in other words, which is more responsible for the various dynamics.)

anon (not verified) Tue, 04/15/2025 - 09:10

In reply to by anon (not verified)

Ok, to answer the first question, no, there is no way, spontaneity is essential, there is no plan or premeditation, there can't be, this is anarchism and it should be devoid of command or ritualistic methodologies.
And the dynamics can only be based on empathy between celebrity and fan, otherwise the relationship becomes exploitation and submission based, thus hierarchical, mmmkay.

EmmaAintDead Wed, 04/16/2025 - 11:48

In reply to by anon (not verified)

Exploitation, domination, and hierarchy happen regardless of empathy. Empathy does not meaningfully factor in to power structures. A prison guard can recognize the plight of a prisonerand identify with them on a personal level all he wants and it will never change the fundamentals of either of their positions. I would argue the guard is actually MORE of a bastard for recognizing this and continuing to be a guard. 

Celebrity is a product of mass media and cannot be divorced from it. Empathy cannot make a celebrity anything other than what they are, and that is a tool used by mass media to exploit in the same way a guard is a tool used by prisons to suppress. 

lumpy (not verified) Mon, 04/14/2025 - 08:47

my answer is - temporary hierarchy based on respect and specialized knowledge is usually fine

there's a ton of caveats to that statement, like a burden of responsibility on the holder of expertise to share that info as quickly as possible with whoever wants it. or the fact that anyone and everyone can revoke the status of the "expert" at any time. this means that you're only "in charge" for the duration of the activity, or until anyone opts out.

lots of anarchists will insist they want to use a different word for this but i prefer to call it what it is so there's less opportunity to be dishonest about it. also, this social dynamic is just part of how people learn from each other so it's a thing to be navigated, rather than avoided

as for heroes and celebrities, that's more of a silly vibes-based thing and i don't take it very seriously

anon (not verified) Tue, 04/15/2025 - 09:02

In reply to by lumpy (not verified)

Lol, " temporary hierarchy based on respect and specialized knowledge is usually fine " Like, bow down and grovel to the brah, lol, who knows how to pour petrol into a bottle, lol duhhh, and stick some rag in the end, lol, light it with a match, and then, lol, throw it at the representatives of all the sources of your seething ressentiment lol, duhhhh! OooOooh the bURden of responsibility, damn, only "in charge " while the fire roars amidst the maniacal screams of the fanboys lol.

EmmaAintDead Wed, 04/16/2025 - 12:24

In reply to by lumpy (not verified)

I disagree that teaching is necessarily hierarchal, even temporarily. I view the relationship formed by instruction as temporary, but the instruction itself as a mutual action to prolong the lifespan of a piece of information. A willing donor and a willing recipient. Obviously this doesn't apply to something like a university course so much as it applies to a parent and child (ideally, not always) or a skilled craftsman and an apprentice. The relationship of teacher and taught dissolves immediately after the information is successfully replicated and that information can now be used by the taught in new and unique ways. The subjugation, in my eyes, is more in the social structure these roles currently exist in, not in the roles themselves. 

lumpy (not verified) Fri, 04/18/2025 - 07:59

In reply to by EmmaAintDead

that's fair but you can get at the same problem by calling it a "power imbalance" that needs to be handled responsibly. point is, for most of that process, the "teacher" has power and how they handle that is pretty important.

way less important but also funny, if the person who is trying to learn won't even listen carefully, then that creates a lot of problems for learning too. so there's a give and take that resolves between equals at the end of a successful process, which is getting pretty silly to insist on describing it this way imo?

instead of just calling a spade a spade but whatever you like! i call it a temporary hierarchy because you name the enemy, instead of disguising these dynamics with different words

anon (not verified) Mon, 04/14/2025 - 18:25

LUMPY FOR ---ANARCHIST CELEBRITY OF THE YEAR---- A FORMER HOBO WITH A PROFOUND KNOWLEDGE OF THE HARDSHIPS OF LIVING IN A RUTHLESS CAPITALIST SOCIETY, HE HAS HONED THE SEETHING RESSENTIMENT AND LOATHINGNLOATHINGNESS HE HAS FOR SMUG STATISTS AND THEIR MERCANTILE MINIONS. HE WILL ALWAYS BE MY CELEBRITY HERO.

Le Collective (not verified) Tue, 04/15/2025 - 09:13

In reply to by anon (not verified)

I concur, however, he must be dosed daily with testosterone if he has any hope of succeeding in defeating the capitalist hegemony. JFK received testosterone daily during his entire presidency. His daily dose of oral methyltestosterone started out as 10 mg, and on several occasions it was increased to 25 mg/d, which enabled him to rise to the heights of his confident forthright power. It is our only chance,,,

Just sayin'

anon (not verified) Tue, 04/15/2025 - 16:09

In reply to by Le Collective (not verified)

Hmm, yes, couldn't we all do with a little methyltestosterone in these difficult times? AND it has no side-effects aaand comes in convenient capsule form at special discount prices for the homeless.

anon (not verified) Tue, 04/15/2025 - 06:57

"Is there a properly anarchist way to be or follow a hierarchical authority?"

"Is there a properly anarchist way to be or follow a hierarchical authority?"

Will there ever be a theoretical convergence between Malthus and Franz Fanon?

Will you ever be a true hetero while only fucking with same-sex partners?

Is there a properly coppish way of being a cop while liberating people?

Is there a properly intelligent way to answer such dumb questions?

anon (not verified) Tue, 04/15/2025 - 09:19

kevin tucker
he personally shows what a sedentary life can do to people.
perfect case study.
perfect hero/anti-hero.

Kevin Tucker (not verified) Tue, 04/15/2025 - 10:05

In reply to by anon (not verified)

If you really want to see what a sedentary life can do to people why not help out at:

Cashapp: blackandgreenpress
Vanma: blackandgreen
Paypal: blackandgreen

Thanks!

anon (not verified) Tue, 04/15/2025 - 12:05

You can have anarchist celebs, but "anarchist leaders"? PLz do us some fancy Tik Tok gymnastics to justify that, OP!

Mx. Pippa (not verified) Tue, 04/15/2025 - 12:22

In reply to by anon (not verified)

Our anarchist crew went on an outdoors team building retreat and one of the activities was descending into a massive cave system where it was single file. Due to the narrow passage and the fact that we only had a single flashlight (torch), we decided that Mx. Froda, who had great experience caving while on the lam from the Greek and international authorities for anarchist activities, would take the lead way. We're so glad that Mx. Froda helped us all through the cave system without a single casualty. I supposed we should tell them that unfortunately they don't exist because anon 12:05 doesn't know what words mean.

Mr Spock'em (not verified) Tue, 04/15/2025 - 16:18

In reply to by Mx. Pippa (not verified)

Umm, it would be logical to have the person with the largest girth to lead, therefore, no one will be left behind or held up by a blockage in the passage way. Pragmatism over idealism.

anon (not verified) Wed, 04/16/2025 - 07:33

In reply to by Mr Spock'em (not verified)

This makes total sense, like if someone has to swim across a river to secure a rope so that the other non-swimmers can cross by hanging onto it and dragging themselves over, it would have to be the strongest swimmer. Just like if you have to divide 509 cans of beer between 100 people counting himself, you get the smart guy who knows maths to do the calculation, he gives 5 to everyone, and he gets 10 cans for doing the work for calculating the correct number and saving alot of time. That's just how cooperation works, right? ;)

triviabot (not verified) Wed, 04/16/2025 - 16:56

Great topic, I think about this a lot. If the principle of free association is first and foremost, I think there could be leaders without hierarchy. Anyone can disassociate from whatever is being led or steered if they choose. I can decide at one moment I am following someone's lead, aware the whole time I could act in self-interest by *no longer following their lead* if necessary or desirable. Ideally, in an anarchist community, those around would accept that this is a normal mentality and not try to calcify leadership structures (which always seem to form an authority, big surprise).

That said, there's so many situations in life that don't really require a hierarchy at all, we're just oversocialized to accept them. Re-socializing ideas around free association is a tough sell though, being quite nerdy/theory-adjacent.

Mx. Sama (not verified) Wed, 04/16/2025 - 19:47

In reply to by triviabot (not verified)

Come to Cave'bolo, comrade. We say: Cave, let us shake this cave. Cave, let us tremble cave halls of earth, steel, and stone, let us be heard from red core to black sky. Cave, let us make them remember, this is Cave'bolo, and we are not afraid!

GEF (not verified) Wed, 04/16/2025 - 20:36

In reply to by triviabot (not verified)

Having leaders is a stupid idea. Not just for the part about the potential for reproducing (informal) hierarchies, but also because that's often what the police is after, i.e. targeting leaders, so to break the crowd, under the dumb assumption that an anarchist crowd will depend upon a leader figure.

It's not about "leader" positions, but about some individuals putting more resources and energies and skills into specific stuff, so that lesser-committed/skilled/interested people can support them at will in their projects or agendas. Of course, there'll always be these types of "leaders", but that doesn't mean other people can't take over the business or either move on to other things.

Like in the speleology metaphor... Regardless how some people are being fucking dumb suicidal in risking their lives just to prove there's a 32cm-wide connection between this and that cave network, the master cave explorer has a level of legitimacy in taking the lead down the cave. Anarchy is more about questioning the same guy the moment he starts bringing us to some stupid ends.

Everyone here should spend a few seconds also thinking about Rev. Jim Jones and the point he made about "leadership"...

Yeah I mean, like, seriously.

triviabot (not verified) Wed, 04/16/2025 - 22:15

In reply to by GEF (not verified)

I get what you're saying, but take for instance, this anarchist website-- aren't you on the hunt for a striking piece of writing, something that makes me think "this person has thoughts in the right direction."? If the answer is no, that's fine. I always love the thrill of discovering a brand new writer and getting curious about where their ideas were fermented. I consciously avoid making heroes out of anyone, though. One of the ways anarchists can differentiate from Marxists is the rejection of hero-worship. I'm thinking about that a lot lately as I read the fawning coverage of the Bernie/AOC rallies.

Non-nihilist (not verified) Thu, 04/17/2025 - 04:09

In reply to by triviabot (not verified)

Something that keeps surfacing is how easy it is to confuse willingness to follow with a return to hierarchy. Even when people choose to follow someone because they trust them, if that trust isn't rooted in shared accountability or if there's no cultural pressure to diffuse that role, it can quickly drift into domination - even unintentionally.

Situational leadership makes sense like the cave example - but to avoid aggrandizement of the role is it worth checking who else holds complementary insight. Not just the one with the most technical know-how as its factual, but those reading the emotional temperature of the group, thinking about logistics, anticipating ripple effects - sharing the leadership. Maybe leadership should be more about distributed presence than single points of guidance.

I think as long as the leadership role is shared, skills taught and disolved otherwise it starts to encourage dominance behaviours.

GEF (not verified) Thu, 04/17/2025 - 10:29

In reply to by triviabot (not verified)

I come to Anews for occasional quality satire and useful comments. The mods gotta mod, but as a fluffy Neo-Enlightement anarcho-individualist God-Emperor who's into Montesquieu, Rabelais, De Sade and Baroque music I believe that can be done with balance (and they often achieve that... it IS possible).

Tho ancoms are also into hero worship... to even more intense levels than Marxists maybe. You don't have as many Marxians "struggling" in the name of Bordiga and Lenin as you got ancoms doing so in the same of Malatesta and Emma. Tho Marxists are more despicable and hardcore delusional in their cult.

anon (not verified) Thu, 04/17/2025 - 06:49

No to heroes, celebrity and leaders, unless in the sarcastic Warhol-esque 15min. celebrity sense, and then, invert the whole rank and prestige values to celebrate the world famous janitor or hunchback of the ghetto, just to drive it satirically home, THIS IS WHAT THE TRUE ANARCH THINKS OF FAME!

anon (not verified) Thu, 04/17/2025 - 15:33

In reply to by anon (not verified)

Read Death of the Author moron. It's the idea of the whole population who celebrate Celebrity Culture getting their own 15min hit. It was a critique of the underlying pettiness of the whole value structure of society. OooOooh you ressentiment engulfed fool!

anon (not verified) Thu, 04/17/2025 - 18:07

In reply to by anon (not verified)

'xcept that was no "critique" at all... you... moron. Warhole was a full supporter of the system that made him famous. The 15 minutes of fame was a concept celebrating democracy's spectacle society of the '60s. There's no single hint, in everything he produced, sponsored or created, of a critical opposition to order.

anon (not verified) Fri, 04/18/2025 - 06:34

In reply to by anon (not verified)

--No you are correct you exceptionally intelligent person-- You see what I did then don't you? I used exaggerated IRONY as my method of critique. The Tins of Campbell Soup,,,,famous trivia, its pettiness raised to the height of prestige. Or Banksie's --Self-Shredding Painting -- Like the Situationalists used detournement, IT'S THE SAME PROCESS FOR CRITIQUE YOU FOOL!! Do NOT reply to my comments anymore, I tire of replying, infact, I refuse to reply to philistines!

anon (not verified) Fri, 04/18/2025 - 07:59

In reply to by anon (not verified)

Please accept this assistance towards your comprehension my dear moron.
Détournement, meaning "diversion" or "rerouting" in French, is a technique developed by the Situationist International (SI) and the Letterist International, where existing artistic or cultural elements are taken out of their original context and used in new ways to subvert and critique the dominant cultural and social structures. It involves recontextualizing, reinterpreting, and repurposing images, texts, sounds, and even entire situations to create new meanings and expose hidden ideologies."
Remember, NO reply sweetie pie.

anon (not verified) Fri, 04/18/2025 - 14:06

Name one bad thing about Nestor Makhno that wasn't made up by the nationalists, Bolsheviks or Mennonites, i'll wait.

S.Sibella (not verified) Fri, 04/18/2025 - 14:22

We know the enemies, and while the heavily propagandized people who fall for celebrity and wealth foolishness are an obstacle, the real problem we face is in the vilified image of Anarchy that is promulgated in the public arena. We need to lift that dark world view and show what we are really about, Freedom and justice for all, community participation and individual rights.

anon (not verified) Fri, 04/18/2025 - 19:33

In reply to by S.Sibella (not verified)

"the vilified image of Anarchy that is promulgated in the public arena."

What where when who?

In my open air prison district Anarchy is not even relevant to anyone.

rebel (not verified) Fri, 04/18/2025 - 19:45

my experience showed me that anarchist groups have hidden leader, not official.
- when new person come to the group, he follow leader because he has more experience what should be done.
- when anarchist in spain had militia and people military 1936, I believe they had leaders in units. it is hard to coordinate activities of units in the war without leaders.
- when I talked with anarchists in my city about leader topic, they say it is not bad to follow somebody who has more experience or knowledge = many anarchists find excuses to have leader.
- oooo, I forgot to say, when leader from one group has conflict with leader from other anarcho-group, followers always support leader of their group and because of 2 idiots who don't like eah other, 2 groups of anarchists don't work together.
so, yes, anarchists have hidden, not official leaders, in every group, and if 2 idiots from different groups don't like each other, their conflict become conflict of 2 groups.
- my dream: the day will come in the future when anarchists will practice what they speak, there are many theoretical anarchists who speak one thing and do other thing. our behavior is important, not only our rhetorics. realize, practice anarchism in your daily life when you have relations with other people, starting from family, friends and girlfriend, give to the people around you autonomy, freedom, share your property with other people, dont be capitalist and dont keep property only for yourself (squat for example).

rebel (not verified) Fri, 04/18/2025 - 20:05

In reply to by rebel (not verified)

I forgot to add something important:
anarchist websites and any kind of media always prioritize high educated anarchists like chomsky or some other doctor of science, while low level educated anarchists in capitalist burgoasie education system don't have chance to be heard, low educated anarchists are less impotant than high educated anarchists every time anarchist write news, opinions and podium discussions. just watch who make speeches at podium discussions, always high educated anarchists, what text are published - always well known mega star anarchists. it means we have pedigre on the basis of studying capitalist books and capitalist education, we have hierarchy based on capitalist education.
so, forget chomsky and call anarchists who are nobody to talk at your podium discussions, dont call always doctors of science to talk if you want equality among anarchists. and publish text of unknown anarchist we read already kropotkin and we don't need kropotkin any more.
- when nobody anarchist write some text, some people say sarcastically, ooo yes, "we need more anarchists text and opinions" like that we don't have enough books in history, everyody quote emma, kropotkin, bakunin or some other well known anarchist, nobody give a shit for text of unknown anarchists. I must say, there is hierarchy on the basis of education, if you have capitalist education, people always call you to talk at podium discussions, lower educated anarchist have no chance to talk, our text nobody wants to read because we are not fucking kropotkin or bakunin.

anon (not verified) Fri, 04/18/2025 - 20:45

In reply to by rebel (not verified)

> burgoasie

Yees! Where can we read more of your *checks notes* "lower educated anarchist" talks, cohmrad?

anon (not verified) Sat, 04/19/2025 - 06:40

In reply to by rebel (not verified)

One thing you must do young newbie person, (or older uneducated person recently released from a prison which didn't have a library), is to read some Stirner or other individualist anarchist literature, because it will 8ntroduce you to the more nuanced and independent forms of anarchism which don't require leaders or hierarchies. Cheers

anon (not verified) Sat, 04/19/2025 - 08:37

In reply to by anon (not verified)

Agreeing here... I don't think Sabate ever needed a Durruti. Not saying Durruti was authoritarian or anything, but the way he was murdered by Left authoritarian cowards stands as demonstration that having a head above the crowd has got an obvious pitfall.

anon (not verified) Sat, 04/19/2025 - 08:56

In reply to by anon (not verified)

Maybe it's just me, but I get this impression that Durruti was seething with ressentiment, with his workerist union affiliations, bourgeois upbringing, not an anarchist in the true sense.

anon (not verified) Fri, 04/18/2025 - 22:46

i feel like posties being to scared to make a position or be creative and think of something new and just hedge and be cagey is part of this leader/celebrity thing like they dont want to be that so they use it as an excuse to not be imaginative cause its easier/safer to just critique. aragorn embodied this by not taking a position on anything so had nothing to say. https://mongoosedistro.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/faith-in-nihilism…

anon (not verified) Sat, 04/19/2025 - 07:07

In reply to by anon (not verified)

Depends on where you live brah, doing nothing is the empathic nihilistic way, going with the flow and not following the crowd, being cool and having a bong, chillin' out etc, not being ruled or led or reactive to someone, that's essentially nihilism 101.

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